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Amnesiac

Member
Oct 27, 2017
44
Seattle, WA
As much as I love Lufia II and how the dungeons used puzzle elements in a clever way, it drove me nuts how almost all the dungeons looked exactly the same. I got to a point where I had to take a break from the game for awhile because it felt like repeating the same dungeon over and over.

The original Valkyrie Profile (hard mode of course) probably has my favorite dungeons of all time. Great variety, great puzzles, and I loved using the falling crystal dust as a platform to get up to tricky places. One thing I really missed in VP2 was the ability to create crystals on walls/floors/ceilings without having to use an enemy.
 
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werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,540
Also, I gotta say as a creator of RPGs, good dungeon design is tough. It's really difficult to make something that isn't just a main path with occasional side paths for treasures. Puzzles are tough to do well since you want them to be interesting, but if you make them too hard, then people get stuck and people don't like getting stuck on non-combat stuff in RPGs (admittedly, they don't like getting stuck there either, but at least there, you can grind your way out).
 

MagitekDad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
574
The way the dungeons were baked into the world in FFXV was awesome. And those dungeons were some of the best in series.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
Persona 5's dungeons were better than 3 and 4 obviously, but that's a low bar to clear. Overall they are pretty bad though. Too long, bad puzzles, very little incentive to explore (if they ever gave you the opportunity at all).
 

SkyOdin

Member
Apr 21, 2018
2,680
Also, I gotta say as a creator of RPGs, good dungeon design is tough. It's really difficult to make something that isn't just a main path with occasional side paths for treasures. Puzzles are tough to do well since you want them to be interesting, but if you make them too hard, then people get stuck and people don't like getting stuck on non-combat stuff in RPGs (admittedly, they don't like getting stuck there either, but at least there, you can grind your way out).
That's definitely a legit concern. There was a puzzle in Lufia 2 that pretty much brought a playthrough to a standstill for me back in pre-internet days. A couple mistranslated puzzle clues in Wild Arms 2 were also pretty bad. Finding the right difficulty for puzzles is tricky. I'm amazed the Zelda series balances it as well as it does.
 

'3y Kingdom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,496
Either we didn't play the same game, or have wildly different interpretations about what a dungeon is. Because I can assure you there's sure as fuck more than one dungeon in SMT4A. And they all range from decent to great

The last dungeon (as that poster was trying to indicate) is pretty terrible. From music:



...to layout:

yhvh.gif

Fantastic game overall, though.
 
Oct 30, 2017
56
Cool thread, I need more good stuff to add my list of RPGs to play and conversation of the genre is so limited to stuff like writing that it's hard to find games that deliver in this respect.

Personally I love Strange Journey and obviously Etrian Odyssey, but the latter is a given. I recently played Grandia for the first time and while I haven't seen that many dungeons, the few I've played through have been surprisingly interactive with little mechanisms and puzzles, so they feel quite "organic" in a way.

Actually, I'll be that guy and say Persona 5 too.

These are so good in atmosphere, sense of danger and mechanics.

My man. I love KH but I've always felt indifferent about the worlds, except Hollow Bastion. I replayed KH1 for the first time in like a decade last year and I was floored by how cool Hollow Bastion is, which is funny because I hated it when I was younger.

Fragmentary Passage seemed to get more creative with dungeons in terms of atmosphere and design, so I REALLY hope they try to do something similar in KH3.

People treat combat and dungeons in modern Persona like they're just annoying obstacles between them and the story and dating nonsense instead of the actual meat of the game (a dungeon crawler at that) , it's damn weird. Personally I loved them in P5 and thought they were all good save for the 5th palace. The 1st, 4th and 6th especially were awesome.

I prefer the dungeons in P5 to P4 as well, and I know the games are dungeon crawlers, but there's no way the combat is the meat of the game. The social simult aspects and the story make up a much larger part of the game than the combat.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,267
FFXII tries to mix up its dungeons up with light puzzle elements, with generally limited success... but the Great Crystal, especially the optional part, is a brutal mindfuck of a dungeon. That's a dungeon that will put hair on your chest.
 

Shengar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,052
I prefer the dungeons in P5 to P4 as well, and I know the games are dungeon crawlers, but there's no way the combat is the meat of the game. The social simult aspects and the story make up a much larger part of the game than the combat.
Eh, they are complimenting each other. Just because the social part of the game took more time that doesn't mean the combat is just second thought from the devs team. Remember that advancing Social Link gives reward that is more or less useful for the dungeon crawling: higher persona level bonus for corresponding arcana, various shops unlockables to be used as items or equipments, field bonuses, and more other options to ease dungeon crawling.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,687
Devil Halton's Trap
Depending on how you define "JRPG", some Falcom games definitely qualify. Xanadu Next's final dungeon alone is a masterpiece; the rest of the game has to settle for mere greatness. Most of the dungeons in Brandish games are superb as well, and Ys titles as new as Lacrimosa of Dana prove that Falcom's still got their dungeon design chops when they need them.

SMT3: Nocturne didn't have good/interesting dungeon design. It had rather small and basic dungeons with artifically-mazelike paths through them, designed to provoke large numbers of random encounters.

Which is quite frankly very standard for the genre.
Maybe that is standard, but Nocturne has some good (even great) dungeons that get around this hurdle. Kabukicho Prison, Assembly of Nihilo, at least half of the Amala Temple dungeons, and a good chunk of Amala Labyrinth have more going on than basic exploration and encounter management. The shit dungeons—mainly Yoyogi Park, Diet Building, and Ginza Underground—exist simply to waste your time rather than provide interesting things to do or see. Obelisk and the final dungeon have a potpourri mix of all the best and worst parts of Nocturne's dungeon design.

Strange Journey, meanwhile, seems rather heartlessly-built given the automap and QoL restrictions in the DS original. The 3DS remake seems to make its dungeon designs a lot more palatable simply by siding with players.

Etrian Odyssey IV has the best dungeon design of any RPG I've ever played.

It's majestic.
The first Untold already has better layouts and more FOE puzzles without slacking in pace. I think EOIV really suffers from how the dungeon content's spread out too thin across the mazes and labyrinths, coupled with simply less to explore.

Yes, Wild Arms 5 dungeons were a great mix of battles and puzzles. And I appreciated that they shut off the random battles during the puzzle parts so you don't lose you place while doing them. They even have it so you can shut off random encounters once you get far enough in so you can explore at your leisure.
Wild Arms 2 and 3 have good systems for putting off random encounters, too, though I think they needed to go even further by implementing a Bravely-style encounter rate toggle many years ahead of the competition.

Golden Sun's dungeons are still unmatched - they were huge, complex and you had a lot of different magical ways to interact with your environment. After playing the Golden Sun games I was always disappointed with the dungeon design of any other JRPG that I played after that.
Make sure to play through Lufia II and the first three Wild Arms games if you haven't already. They're all in roughly the same tier of dungeon design excellence.

As much as I love Lufia II and how the dungeons used puzzle elements in a clever way, it drove me nuts how almost all the dungeons looked exactly the same. I got to a point where I had to take a break from the game for awhile because it felt like repeating the same dungeon over and over.
I approached this game with a helpful assumption: it's a simple combat gallery and complex, exhaustive series of puzzle sets all in one. Lufia II's great because it never lets up with variations on its themes, though this definitely hurts the story a lot. Never have I met a Japanese adventure wargame as workmanlike but superbly constructed as this, for better or worse.

Land Stalker for the Sega Genesis, but honestly you will be overwhelmed.

Runner up : Alundra.
Both games are great, though the former's a lot more accessible. Alundra takes its puzzle designs to extremes that make Landstalker blush. One game's about a varied adventure while the other's about defeating nightmares however they arrive.[/QUOTE]
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
Persona 5's dungeons were better than 3 and 4 obviously, but that's a low bar to clear. Overall they are pretty bad though. Too long, bad puzzles, very little incentive to explore (if they ever gave you the opportunity at all).

The P5 problem is the forced stealth elements. I think that having the enemies on the map is a negative instead a positive, since you really want to ambush enemies and that makes the pacing of the dungeon a total slog, specially since they respawn.
 

Zen Hero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,651
The P5 problem is the forced stealth elements. I think that having the enemies on the map is a negative instead a positive, since you really want to ambush enemies and that makes the pacing of the dungeon a total slog, specially since they respawn.
Yeah, I agree. I think one issue is that those stealth elements weren't actually very stealth, because they didn't allow you to actually avoid many fights. I think the pacing would have been improved if you could use stealth to actually skip more battles, especially when backtracking or going into side areas.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,472
I like Paper Mario 2's because of the paper abilities, like turning into a plane and I liked it when the pipes switch into the distance and you have to look close. There was usually a memorable boss like Hooktail and Doopliss to give them personality.
 

ccieag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,339
Vail, CO
Many of the older JRPG's, such as Golden Sun, Wild Arms, Chrono Trigger, etc ... Most new ones don't really have very good design in general, but most especially where dungeons are concerned
 

MoonlitBow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,894
For FF, FF1 had the best dungeon layouts (not too mazey, not too linear) until FF5 managed to have dungeons with great exploring areas for treasure with light puzzle elements. FF15 had both really good dungeons but also the worst dungeons (the good dungeons are pretty much anything before the menace dungeons except Ch. 13, and Pitioss).

DQ games in general have really good dungeons as well.
 

Augemitbutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,290
Brandish on PSP and many other Falcom games. Ys II was one of the best.

Dragon's Dogma also had crazy good dungeons. main game only had a few because the focus was outdoors. the expansion was one giant dungeon.
 

RalchAC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
825
People don't like those dungeons because they're loooong. Each dungeon is going to take you at least six hour to complete, and they get longer as you continue. They aren't also interesting they have small gimmick with a very simple puzzle. So it's not surprising people might prefer P4G dungeons where even though they're bland looking they only take like two hours complete at the most. Only thing I can give the Persona 5 dungeons are that they look nice. That's pretty much it.

People got burned of the dungeons because they probably did them in one sitting. They weren't designed to be completed in a single day, despite the game giving you tools to do so. Some people (like me, lets be honest) was too worried about min-maxing their run.

Most dungeons don't rely on a single gimmick like Shido's. The 3rd Palace has 2 parts, the 5th dungeon has like 3-4 different sections, the 6th dungeon has different casino themed stuff.

They probably aren't the best thing since pancakes, but they're definitely above average and helped selling the thief motif of the game. I'd say only the 5th dungeon was too long (it looked like 2 glued together) and the 7th one, because it's the only one where they rely on a single gimmick.
 

tiebreaker

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,213
I think FF XV strikes the balance very well, there are some which are just branching tunnels and some more complicated dungeons, and they don't seem out of place.

If you want more puzzles, than something like Golden Sun and Wild Arms would be more to your liking.
 

Puru

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,178
If you want some decent dungeons you generally want to aim for either Drpg ( etrian odyssey, strange journey, persona q, grimrock, etc...) or something similar to zelda games.
 

Deleted member 17916

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
48
I agree with Lufia II and especially Valkyrie Profile 2, really loved going through the dungeons.

Apart from those I also like the design in Terranigma, they are mostly crisp and clear. The visual design is also diverse.
 
OP
OP
FolderBrad

FolderBrad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
898
The first person dungeon crawlers are great, but sorta against the spirit of my question I guess. Though people are not wrong to bring them up.

Besides those, I see a pretty big concensus on Lufia 2, and the Wild Arms and Golden Sun games. It's a shame there hasn't been anything more recent.

Also surprising that the GOAT classics haven't been mentioned. Maybe this is the reason we don't see great dungeons anymore? Since the classic didn't really have them?
 
Oct 30, 2017
56
Eh, they are complimenting each other. Just because the social part of the game took more time that doesn't mean the combat is just second thought from the devs team. Remember that advancing Social Link gives reward that is more or less useful for the dungeon crawling: higher persona level bonus for corresponding arcana, various shops unlockables to be used as items or equipments, field bonuses, and more other options to ease dungeon crawling.

That's a fair counter argument. I won't still say the social aspect outweighs the combat, but I can't deny their complementary nature, especially in 5, where I would also say they did a better job of providing you with bonuses for dungeons per social link. And, as others have mentioned the dungeons in 5 are longer, so I of course spent comparatively more time in them than usual.

My experience with dungeon crawlers is limited though. I was under the impression that most were pretty much just about actually being in the dungeons. Do you know if that's accurate, or do I just have the wrong idea?