"Mature, intelligent stories" as an excuse for gratuitous naked women.

Yeah, I agree that nudity, as portrayed in mainstream media, isn't really representative of what the average naked human being looks like. It gives people the wrong idea about nude beaches and such.

Punjabi_Hitman said:

Unless your movie is about sexuality as a theme, how does throwing nudity in there fit to the plot? Atleast sad moments occur due to things that happen in the plot.

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Because nudity is a thing that happens, like, a lot.

Punjabi_Hitman said:

Altleast sad moments in movies don't make you role your eyes and make sense most of the time rather than just random nudity thrown into a movie just for nudity sake. Because it sells or it's "ART"

Sadness isn't used as a tool to sell movies.

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Really? I can think of plenty of movies like that. The Shawshank Redemption, Forrest Gump, the Green Mile, etc.

Don't let pornography have the monopoly on the nude human body, it has been admired in the visual arts forever and it should be kept that way, it's part of our nature and should be admired as such, even if it's poorly executed
I dread the day puritans will have their way again.
I absolutely do agree it should be less one sided, but a male nipple does not count as nudity while female nipple does, and this double standard will always lead to more female nudity.

joe_zazen said:

These are all comercial, made-to-make-money things. All of this kind of media panders to the audience. One type of pandering is having naked goodlooking, not too old people. Idk what you expect from corporate confectionary.

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I'd expect them to show more naked men to also get money from people who like seeing that. Unless they think showing both naked women and men will hurt their bottom line.

In either case, the decisions aren't being based on narrative or thematic reasons, which is what the argument in the OP alludes to.

Einchy said:

Because nudity is a thing that happens, like, a lot.

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tokkun said:

Really? I can think of plenty of movies like that. The Shawshank Redemption, Forrest Gump, the Green Mile, etc.

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That's because it's essential to the plot. In what way is nudity essential to the plot if the movie isn't about sexuality.

Roman and Greek societies had murals depicting gratuitous sex and sexual organs all over their walls in full public view in 79AD.

The point is, fascination with sex is an innately human trait. No amount of attempted cultural rewiring will ever change that.

There's still not enough nudity if anything. I wish every show went as far as Sense8 did in its portrayal straight and queer sexual relationships.

Siggy-P said:

It's

Spoiler

Right after Luv kidnaps Deckard. They fly back the LAPD building and pass the big Joi hologram with it's back turned towards the camera and ass very visibly framed.

But it's not really the semantics of what film or show is or isn't gratuitous that I made this thread about. It's just the general overuse of specifically hot naked women with the conveniant excuse of "art".

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I do think the larger topic is definitely worth discussing/thinking about

Brock Reiher said:

This is why, despite absolutely loving it, I would never recommend someone start reading Berserk.

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That and the sense of dread that creeps in when you catch up and have to wait for new chapters.

no complains here.

It doesn't bother me.

TheChewyWaffles said:

People like to see attractive people naked.

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That's why i'm also staring at myself in the mirror. :P :D

The thing I hated most about A Song of Ice and Fire, aside from the fact that it will never be finished, was all the sex and rape.

robot prostitution fits the theme of blade runner imo, and the semi-publicness of said prostitution shows that the income inequality gap in a transhumanistic automation driven society is so large, that the lower rungs of society that live in the dirty/smokey streets dont live with the ounce of decorum that would allow them any semblance of dignity or shame

much like our world, in the world of BR2049, sex sells, so theres alot of marketing of it, and people already live such undignified lives down in the smoke and the filth, the destination place for everyone at the top's trash, that they couldn't even begin to muster the sacrosanctity about themselves or the human body to ask people to close the blinds or take down the billboards

its not a society possessed by depravity, but by insurmountable indifference

I've seen Westworld season 1, Ex Machina, and Altered Carbon and I don't feel like the nudity is exploitative or excessive.

You suggest that the nudity is a (or *the*) selling point of these "mature" titles, and while it certainly is possible that it could be one of the draws of the genre, I feel that the term fits the titles you've mentioned. You sit a teen down in front Westworld or AC and they'll probably focus on the nudity / sex, but adults should be focusing on the "why" behind the skin.

Androids / AI don't have the same societal taboos about showing their genitalia--for most androids, they're superficial attachments added to appease the vanity of their human creators. I think galv makes some interesting points, if not overly specific at times, but the clothed / naked dynamic goes to show who has the power between creator and created. Androids in Westworld (season 1) are tools--nothing more, they don't have their own sexuality. You see the lines blur: a female engineer kisses one android to see if she feels anything; two androids share an intimate moment as they begin to realize their own plight. It's this blurring, or crossing, of the lines that whispers the question--what is human?

Of the three I've listed, I think Westworld's nudity is the most tastefully done and works only to advance the narrative. Altered Carbon is probably a bit more pulpy, but I didn't have a problem with it.

I mean, it's not like the two things need to be exclusive either. The adult comic, Heavy Metal, has been combining gratuitous with thoughtful (at times) science fiction for years. Game of Thrones is another non-SF example of rampant nudity that helps tell the story (at least in the first season, which is all I've watched). You could make the argument that men are not shown as often as females, and I'd agree, but nudity that fits the narrative is fine.

There should be more nudity so people can get used to it and stop feeling so fucking weird about it.

Punjabi_Hitman said:

That's because it's essential to the plot. In what way is nudity essential to the plot if the movie isn't about sexuality.

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In the case of Blade Runner 2049, the hologram scene is meant to objectify Joi. The primary theme of the movie is the question of what constitutes humanity from the perspective of an artificial being. That scene is intended to provoke dissonance in the viewer's mind, after they have just seen the humanizing aspect of K grieving over Joi, reminding them that she is a commercial product.

I dunno, 2049 seemed pretty appropriate to me. But now that you mention it, I definitely associate the cyberpunk genre a bit with sexy naked women.

Punjabi_Hitman said:

In what way is nudity essential to the plot if the movie isn't about sexuality.

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Nudity is not inherently sexual. Nudity represents more than just sex, nudity can be used as a metaphor for birth (Ghost in the Shell, Westworld), nudity can express extreme poverty, nudity can express humanity are just beasts driven by instinct...there are plenty of ways to use nudity which is not sexual.

go with an adult who has seen the movie and ask them to let you know when you should cover your eyes

That's supposed to be part and parcel of the moral decay prevalent in sci fi / cyberpunk stories.

Fine line between not wanting 'gratuitous' nudity and being a prude.

EDIT

Wait, you're saying you would prefer if there was more fetishistic nudity in these films? That somehow that would make it less gratuitous by appealing to niche sexual desires?

The fuck are you trying to say.

It makes sense to show the naked physical form of a human or android when dealing with the topic of transhumanism. You're looking at a sentient being at their most vulnerable state, and with movies like Ghost in the Shell, the idea is that you're supposed to think more about the idea that this person is indistinguishable from a human being in every way, except that Motoko doesn't really seem to have areola or such. There are slight differences in her body from the typical human body that suggest she is a manufactured body. I always liked the idea that Motoko in GITS could have been a man or non-binary before having her consciousness transferred. It doesn't even really matter in that future. It's my least favorite part of the animated series for Ghost in the Shell that . She's also able to have experiences that no human can have, and doubts that no human would have.

It seems natural to me to explore the human form and the inhuman form with this topic.

Rather have that then the opposite. The censorship in shows like the Expanse are so forced and obvious. Cameras cutting away last second like a pg rated horror film. Unnatural looking makeup work to cover nipples. Awkward character angles to cover up nipples and genitals in sex scenes.
"Why are you so close to me, youre suffocating me"
"My chest has to cover your nipples."

BR presents a lot of images and representations of human bodies to evoke how thoroughly humanity and the replicants have been dissociated from nature. The iteration of imagery makes me think of something like Warhol where even the aesthetic object (in this case, human form itself) is reduced to a designed product issuing from a production line, with the repetition producing a kind of monotony or disenchantment. That women are sexualized much more than men seems more like a comment on how we already apparently value human bodies as pragmatic objects (men more for labour, women more for sex).

brainchild said:

Of course! But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't count. If that was the case, it wouldn't be considered full frontal nudity in the first place!

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If a man was wearing a pubic wig so large you couldn't see his genitals, would you consider it full frontal nudity?

I thought BR2049's approach to sex was pretty tasteful and interesting.

Siggy-P said:

I find it interesting seeing most people ignore that this thread was made to focus specificaly on the use of only young attractive women for the nudity, and instead make out like I wanna get rid of the nudity altogether.

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See my edit above.

Siggy-P said:

I find it interesting seeing most people ignore that this thread was made to focus specificaly on the use of only young attractive women for the nudity, and instead make out like I wanna get rid of the nudity altogether.

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Always happens in this discussion.

Siggy-P said:

I find it interesting seeing most people ignore that this thread was made to focus specificaly on the use of only young attractive women for the nudity, and instead make out like I wanna get rid of the nudity altogether.

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Well, this is also an interesting thing to me, because in the original Ghost in the Shell, Motoko isn't necessarily conventional in a way that promotes gender norms. Her face is actually very androgynous, and her body is very toned and muscular. This is a far cry from the young feminine girls in say Blade Runner 2049. Motoko's body type only serves to highlight the force and strength behind her body when she tears her arms apart.

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IDreamOfHime said:

Is this some kind of straight guy security blanket comment?
Because dicks are awesome and a dangling softy is the hottest fucking thing to look at.

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Really? It like the saddest thing to look at. Erect penis's can be attractive but I don't think I've ever walked into a room with any girl I've dated who thought a Flaccid dick was attractive but maybe its because I'm a grower not a shower. Maybe a flaccid shower would be better but almost any dick on Tv is usually to small to actually make out.

Okay you guys have to tell what attractive flaccid dick on tv you have seen? Because Maybe only Hodor and that is because he was hung like a horse.

Honestly, in regards to BR2049, I was more uncomfortable with how than anything else, though it does tie back into what you're saying specifically about how women's bodies are often treated in 'mature intelligent' stories.

galv said:

I'm fine with tasteful nudity that has some amount of meaning behind it.

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"Tasteful" nudity is the problem, as far as I'm concerned. How about more "raw" nudity Peter Greenaway or Alejandro Jodorowsky-style?

Siggy-P said:

Your edit is again making out like I'm saying something I'm not.

My point, is that while yes, nudity is a mature subject and should be used in films, it's kind of pathetic that we mostly see only nudity if young hot women.

I was not saying I want to see fetishistic nudity. You know I wasn't saying that. It was just an example about Blade Runnder being a decadent society.

I'm saying that films should show more than just nudity specifically made for their audience to masturbate to.

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By providing for people who want to masturbate to something other than conventionally attractive women. Which is inserting nudity for the sake of gratifying a section of your audience rather than in service to the story.

Look, I'm fine with inclusion and understand the point you were trying to make, but yeah.

FUME5 said:

That's supposed to be part and parcel of the moral decay prevalent in sci fi / cyberpunk stories.

Fine line between not wanting 'gratuitous' nudity and being a prude.

EDIT

Wait, you're saying you would prefer if there was more fetishistic nudity in these films? That somehow that would make it less gratuitous by appealing to niche sexual desires?

The fuck are you trying to say.

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1) Liking bodies beyond those of young women is now a fetish? Is the male nude body so taboo that it's now a fetish in a way that the female body isn't?

2) Nudity is not always about sexual attraction or titillation. And yet much of media treats it as if that's the primary way nudity can exist in stories. For example, traditionally "male" genres like sci-fi and fantasy have far more female nudity. Even in cases where it would make sense to showcase naked male bodies just as much as naked female ones. I guess people are just prudes about male nudity.

I thought this thread would be about Starz and HBO shows, where the nudity and sex actually undermines the story many times, not Blade Runner - which I thought, while definitely confronting, fit the story well.

Westworld has a huge range of nudity in both body types and sexes, but I don't think the range really added anything other than to say "we do more than just hot young women". I guess it does sort of normalize nudity though, after the first few episodes it just wasn't a big deal to see a ton of naked hosts standing around frozen.

TV/movies are an escape for me and many others, and given the choices I'd rather see nudity over non, and younger good looking people over normal looking people, and personally women over men. I don't watch shows for reality, I've got 24 hours, 7 days a week of that.

FUME5 said:

By providing for people who want to masturbate to something other than conventionally attractive women. Which is inserting nudity for the sake of gratifying a section of your audience rather than in service to the story.

Look, I'm fine with inclusion and understand the point you were trying to make, but yeah.

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Nudity isn't intrinsically tied to masturbation. C'mon now.

Siggy-P said:

I agree on that, though with the original anime GITS film I always found it unexplained why she wouldn't just get a more practical body like Batous or something more combat ready without the unnecessary sexual organs.

I get the reasoning though from a story perspective.

But I also appreciate that in the original manga she at least had sex (even if it was a straight up lesbian porn scene) so there was justification for why she had breasts and stuff.

EDIT: BTW I havn't actually seen the Scarlett Johansen film yet, in the OP I was reffering to a comment my brother made about the trailer.

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I always saw it as a personal choice to be feminine. The body is as practical as you can get as a feminine body for military work, I'd say, or at least it seems to be. I could be totally wrong about that, but I know to be a marine or a soldier you have a certain standard you have to meet in terms of shape. There's no way to tell that she got the body specifically for military work, but I would assume she did since to be at her rank and station in a covert military team she would have had to be doing this for a number of years.

Making her less androgynous was another huge mistake the shows made, I feel, because it's the ideal choice if you're tackling the military AND transhumanism. If it weren't for the transhumanism, there's nothing that says she couldn't be far more feminine. It would work fine. However, the choice to move away from gender norms is just too intriguing.

The manga went in a different direction with Motoko having a multitude of bodies to choose from.

srsly? said:

"Tasteful" nudity is the problem, as far as I'm concerned. How about more "raw" nudity Peter Greenaway or Alejandro Jodorowsky-style?

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Be careful what you wish for

In sci fi movies you can make ai or robots nakes and justify it with, "they don't care for the concept of sexuality". Kind of lame.

The worst nakedness in one of the properties the OP mentioned has to be Altered Carbon's naked clone samurai sword fight...
Just all sorts of uncomfortable watching that scene with my wife.

Love the show though. I mean, for more than the gratuitous violence and nudity...<_<

Siggy-P said:

But we don't see that. We see what the viewer would be happy to see, that being relatively fit and attractive young women. We never see any naked overweight women or naked ugly women or weird fetishy giant pink holograms (that realistically would seel far more).

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Why is it realistic that we would see something different in the future?

Mammals, humans included, are generally speaking biologically attracted to healthy, fit members of the opposite sex with symmetrical features.

This always has been and as far as I can tell always will be the case.

subpar spatula said:

In sci fi movies you can make ai or robots nakes and justify it with, "they don't care for the concept of sexuality". Kind of lame.

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What are examples of naked robot men beyond Westworld? I'm drawing a blank.

Pau said:

1) Liking bodies beyond those of young women is now a fetish? Is the male nude body so taboo that it's now a fetish in a way that the female body isn't?

2) Nudity is not always about sexual attraction or titillation. And yet much of media treats it as if that's the primary way nudity can exist in stories. For example, traditionally "male" genres like sci-fi and fantasy have far more female nudity. Even in cases where it would make sense to showcase naked male bodies just as much as naked female ones. I guess people are just prudes about male nudity.

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I used the word fetish as siggy p did, I personally don't consider male nudity anywhere near taboo, and it seems entertainment is catching up with that as there is now far more male nudity (and male and female nudity not tied to sex / titillation) in these kinds of shows that there was a decade ago.

OnixVerumi said:

Nudity isn't intrinsically tied to masturbation. C'mon now.

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Again, responding to OPs wording.

Recently, there have been comments that the Cyberpunk game will feature nudity. A reason was given...but it felt more like an excuse to me if I am honest.

I can't actually think of a time when nudity was required in storytelling.