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"Mature, intelligent stories" as an excuse for gratuitous naked women.
- Thread starter Siggy-P
- Start date
User Banned (4 Days): Posting pornographic imagery.
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1. There are a range of "healthy, fit" bodies, plus as OP is discussing women tend to be nude far more than men, it's the same old straight male gaze that has run Hollywood since Clara Bow first rose to fame.
2. Nudity isn't always about attraction. Some others have pointed out how Westworld bucks the standard HBO nudity trend, and in the vast majority of that show nudity is used to create vulnerability, in men and women alike. It isn't perfect but it is an interesting shift for an HBO series to make.
It's literally what separates good writing from bad. Every mastercraftsman when it comes to narrative will tell you that everything needs to serve the story.
As a straight guy, I absolutely cannot stand straight guys' tendency to project their own sexuality onto the entire world population.
Every sex scene where women leave their bras on can take me out of the moment.
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the male body is something very pleasing to look at, arguably the most famous work of art of all time is a statue of a male body.
however, societal norms and gender roles discourage men from saying and feeling that because they might look gay, while this not the case for women to the same degree when it comes to other women, so I get where you are coming from. But that does not mean that the male body is not pleasing to look at.
As a rule we're too prudish about nudity. A story that's mature and intelligent, and includes nudity, isn't necessarily being gratuitous at all.
To picture an example of gratuitous nudity, I'd imagine a basic exposition scenes where two characters talk about the plot while there are writhing strippers in the background. If there's no story reason for the characters to be in the club or for the strippers to be doing their thing in full view, then the nudity is gratuitous.
By contrast, a show like Westworld uses nudity as a thematic device. The hosts are casually objectified and dehumanized, even as it's clear there is no important distinction between these sophisticated beings and real humans. Nudity plays an important part in the whole narrative thrust of the show.
To picture an example of gratuitous nudity, I'd imagine a basic exposition scenes where two characters talk about the plot while there are writhing strippers in the background. If there's no story reason for the characters to be in the club or for the strippers to be doing their thing in full view, then the nudity is gratuitous.
By contrast, a show like Westworld uses nudity as a thematic device. The hosts are casually objectified and dehumanized, even as it's clear there is no important distinction between these sophisticated beings and real humans. Nudity plays an important part in the whole narrative thrust of the show.
I must have seen this on the shittiest tv because I could have sworn his crotch was always completely in the dark with nothing to see.
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People like attractive naked people.
Really, though, male nudity is pretty common. In fact, it might even be more common than female nudity these days. Westworld had just as much male nudity as female nudity. Spartacus was like 95% male nudity. Game of Thrones was about 50/50. Then there's the classic "naked dude leaning forward in a shower while his leg is strategically posed to cover his junk" scene that's becoming increasingly prevalent. Hell, Wolverine is repeatedly naked in the X-Men movies. I just watched a movie called Revenge where 99% of the nudity was male and there was a lengthy fight scene where the dude was completely naked.
Also, the nudity in Ex-Machina is completely appropriate given the nature of the antagonist and the overarching themes of the film.
Really, though, male nudity is pretty common. In fact, it might even be more common than female nudity these days. Westworld had just as much male nudity as female nudity. Spartacus was like 95% male nudity. Game of Thrones was about 50/50. Then there's the classic "naked dude leaning forward in a shower while his leg is strategically posed to cover his junk" scene that's becoming increasingly prevalent. Hell, Wolverine is repeatedly naked in the X-Men movies. I just watched a movie called Revenge where 99% of the nudity was male and there was a lengthy fight scene where the dude was completely naked.
Also, the nudity in Ex-Machina is completely appropriate given the nature of the antagonist and the overarching themes of the film.
OP
OP
What? I was talking about people in-universe, not in the audience.
Well this was always my problem with the original film. I find the stuff that can be discussed about the film, especially what you're talking about in your post, to be far more interesting than what was actually presented in the film.
Going off memory here (been a while since I saw it) I don't remember her expressly saying she wanted a femminine body for any particular reason. But I do find that idea really fascinating.
BR2049 presents a culture that views what are essentially humans as little more than utilitarian objects, because the complete dissociation or mediation of nature by human hands makes this possible. But how the replicants are treated in this culture is really just a magnified way of how our culture depersonalizes people already along gendered lines: men exist to bleed and die when commanded, and women exist to be passive objects of desire. It's another iteration on the theme of how humanity has become totally estranged from itself, by enacting a culture that makes a meaningful connection to others or to nature nearly impossible. It's perhaps not 'required', but it clearly bolsters a central theme, and it's done in a cultural language that's already all too familiar, in effect making this extreme culture more believable by giving it a through line with how we already in practice reduce our brothers and sisters to mere objects. And I say this as a gay dude who doesn't exactly subscribe to this culture for various reasons (experiencing toxic masculinity as homophobia, not finding women sexually attractive, etc). Normally nudity in media is so unequal that it makes me want to roll my eyes out of my skull, but BR2049 is one of the few cases where its nudity so thoroughly enmeshed and integrated in the themes and aesthetic of the thing that I can't actually imagine it not being there.
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Maybe it was the American version where this might have been censored. =/
I would imagine that more nudity in Sci-fi movies can also be connected to a reduced shame about the naked body because being naked is natural and we have overcome the general shame that currently surrounds the naked body. It makes scenes like Terminator look so normal for example.
Of course Sci-fi has body modification so there shouldn't be much reason to be ashamed anyway.
I think you are overestimating the number of naked men in Game of Thrones: It's 84% women vs. 16% men.
Those stats are a bit skewed because it doesn't include topless dudes.
Yeah dudes are good to look at. Like a Fit dude in a speedo looks damn good. He can pose is ass off. Dudes can be sexy as hell. I just think that dudes generally look better with a little bit of clothes on because its actually more teasing.
Also Societal norms and I don't think letting balls fly free all the time is the most comfortable thing for dudes. I've tried jogging and running when I visited Nude beaches and Resorts, Its okay in the beginning, but them motherfuckers start to move and hit my thigh and that shit is unpleasant as fuck.
I'm out on-site and on mobile, perhaps I'm mis-reading your posts and talking at cross purposes?
Nudity is often fully justified in sci-fi / cyberpunk (well, maybe often is a stretch) due to the themes previously discussed.
Yes it still mainly caters to the straight male gaze, although that is shifting.
Most of the nudity in a lot of really great mature works nearly certainly comes from a place of misogyny and stupidity. I think there are definitely exceptions, but at the end of the day I don't think we hold creators to very high standards when they start dangling Epic Ass Tit's in front of the us. For every original GitS movie (which I think is not meant to be a turn-on at all) or WW S1, we get a Hollywood GitS movie, and some Game of Thrones, and some Witcher, and so on and so forth.
As shitty as the double standard is, I don't think it's fair to consider topless men and topless women to be the same thing in this discussion. Maybe one day when being topless in public as a woman will be seen as appropriate as topless men.
Standards don't change unless people are willing to change them. Nudity should be treated the same regardless of sex. I mean, if we're going to give different nudity rankings to specific body parts, I could argue that a man's crotch shot is worth 4x as many Naked Points as a woman's crotch shot. You see the penis, two balls and pubic hair whereas 99% of female genitalia in movies is just pubic hair.
You'll be able to play as a woman in Cyberpunk, so that most likely won't be the case.
Yes, difficult topic. Generally breasts will always have some sort of sexual attraction attached to it due to instinctive programming. Even if the double standard is not the best solution, generally a topless man is not considered sexual for most men, though women might find it still sexy and attractive.
Doubt any of the Ghost in the Shell Anime scenes are meant to be sexual, outside of maybe a select few that actually are designed to be. Generally the nudity is more normal there because a lot of bodies and body parts are synthetic anyway and you can just "upgrade" if you want too. On top of Sci-fi generally containing skintight suits as well.
Of course! Just like a frontal shot of a man who has buried penis syndrome and no clothes would still be considered full frontal nudity.
The level of detail visible with respect to genitalia has nothing to do with the definition of nudity. Nudity is simply the absence of clothing on the body.
The poster probably also took a snide at the age. But if you can modify your body why would you make your body 70 years old? Makes little sense outside of some sort of roleplay.
Not sure how naked men or homosexuality would make sense in the Witcher's story because isn't he a womanizer in his backstory?
Outside of that, how do you make naked men erotic outside of genitals and some poses? Women a lot of the time get erotic simply because breasts are sown or skimpy clothing is used as skintight clothing is a staple in Sci-fi.
Outside of sex where would an erect dick make sense? Men don't just run around with this after all. Show it in a tasteful, appropriate sex scene.
I say we need more nudity, not less of it. More naked guys too, sure, why not
but don't take away my naked hologram AIs
nearly all the media in the OP play around with the idea of machine/AI sexuality, that topic has bee part of the cyberpunk genre forever. There are people chauffering around sexdolls from hotel to hotel in Tokyo at this very moment, there's a sex robot hotel in Moscow now, humans are weird, but this is an actual real-world phenomena
I don't know what to say about the OP complaining about young and attractive women being sexualized. When was that not the case? Old and unattractive people tend to be less well represented, true enough. If it's about there not being enough male representation, sure, that can be solved. The media just gives you what the majority of the consumers want but that's not necessarily a valid excuse
squeemish about certain "mature" topics like prostitution? Avoid media working with these themes, then
but don't take away my naked hologram AIs
nearly all the media in the OP play around with the idea of machine/AI sexuality, that topic has bee part of the cyberpunk genre forever. There are people chauffering around sexdolls from hotel to hotel in Tokyo at this very moment, there's a sex robot hotel in Moscow now, humans are weird, but this is an actual real-world phenomena
I don't know what to say about the OP complaining about young and attractive women being sexualized. When was that not the case? Old and unattractive people tend to be less well represented, true enough. If it's about there not being enough male representation, sure, that can be solved. The media just gives you what the majority of the consumers want but that's not necessarily a valid excuse
squeemish about certain "mature" topics like prostitution? Avoid media working with these themes, then
I was joking but now that you ask, i can think of at least a GoT scene where the dick was flaccid and it made no sense, when Theon is at the brothel. But yeah, it's a sex scene.
Well considering you used Ex Machina and claimed the nudity wasn't plot relevant despite
the main robot literally being created to seduce the main character,
OP
OP
?
when did I say anything like that?
I mentioned the prostitutes to signify that I'm talking about what happens in the background of the scene with the prostitutes.
lol, so true about the age issue. And you're right, Geralt is already defined as a straight guy. Of course he's not gonna be doing the deed with other dudes.
Sexualizing guys is pretty tough, I think. I'm a straight woman but I very rarely find men in media attractive -- and when I do, they're clothed. Naked men don't do it for me unless it's a SO. I think a lot of women are like me, too. Straight men and women just don't produce the same reactions to bodies.
Sex sells and I'm buying. It's either a feminist choice for a woman to be nude for the arousal of the audience or it isn't.
If a production wants to feature breasts because they know their audience will get a kick out of it - who cares?
If a production wants to feature breasts because they know their audience will get a kick out of it - who cares?
I thought for sure she talked about it, but that might have been in the series.
OP
OP
I said they did not need to be naked for as long as they wrre, not that it wasn't plot relevant.
OP
OP
He's not. He clearly prefaced it as his own theory.
Can you think of a more politically correct way to say, "I think most people, both male and female, don't enjoy the sight of flaccid penises"?
What is the cutoff then? This seems completely arbitrary. I don't remember anything gratuitous about how long they were naked for
I agree with this absolutely.
But it does not change that this double standard has a huge influence on the one sided nudity discussion.
So to even this out, we'd have to show a dick for every female nipple?
Never going to happen. As I wrote earlier. As long as the nipple double standard exists, we will always have more female nudity in media. No way around it.
He's not wrong, though. In my opinion, flaccid dicks are not very nice to look at... no offence.
I think a core issue is, with any sexualization, that its skewed toward straight males. Sexuality is fine, its not something we should be ashamed of, i wont lie, part of the reason i love bayonetta is because she is sexy. But i do think that those who do not prefer women have been left in the dust with that sort of thing. Im also a big fan of context, a scene with a naked man or woman with context for their nudity makes sense. But there used to be so many movies that had boobs for the sake of having boobs (films like road trip, american pie, ect) that we lost track of context
I haven't seen Season 2 of Westworld but I wouldn't use Ex Machina and Blade runner as examples to that besides maaaaaaaaybe the scene with the prostitute there was actual purpose beyond gratification theme or character wise for the nudity especially with how dehumanizing it's supposed to be for the robots in Ex Machina
This was half the reason I decided not to watch Westworld Season 2. And judging by people's reactions, it seems I've made a great choice.
Nudity in movies is almost always an eye-roller for me. I hate how the majority of movies about trans/non-binary people have them naked to show "their true body". Penises as plot twists. Mocking people for their bodies. "Isn't it strange how this person looks" the framing tells the audience. Fuck off.
Nudity in movies is almost always an eye-roller for me. I hate how the majority of movies about trans/non-binary people have them naked to show "their true body". Penises as plot twists. Mocking people for their bodies. "Isn't it strange how this person looks" the framing tells the audience. Fuck off.
I mean the robot is very handsome and making me question a lot of things
I'm pretty sure flaccid dicks are universally disliked. I don't know a single female or gay friend who thinks they look good. Not saying there aren't people who do
All of the nudity in ExMachina and BR2049 was relevant to the narrative. The fact that they were young women was also relevant too.