They could never release Ritual of the Night, and the Kickstarter would still curbstomp MN9, because we got Curse of the Moon out of it.
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I'm worried Bloodstained might be bad. Is this what Mighty No 9 felt like for MM fans?
- Thread starter FolderBrad
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Having played the most recent backer demo as well, I understand your concerns; however, the first stage (the galleon) had much more polish than subsequent zones, so I'm inclined to believe that those are still very much WIP. I wouldn't particularly mind a release delay if it meant that the outskirts and the castle would reach the same level of polish as that first stage. The velvet red save rooms already look stupendous, the issue is clearly not with the art direction as a whole.
I also quite liked the gear variety and crafting, they obviously front-loaded the demo as much as possible so you'd be able to try out a little of everything, but in the release version I fully expect it to be a more incremental progression system. Ultimately I think things like cooking and alchemy are a pretty natural evolution of the RPG-lite mechanics of previous Igarashi titles. This demo still feels pretty rough around the edges but it's a beta build, much too early to judge.
I also quite liked the gear variety and crafting, they obviously front-loaded the demo as much as possible so you'd be able to try out a little of everything, but in the release version I fully expect it to be a more incremental progression system. Ultimately I think things like cooking and alchemy are a pretty natural evolution of the RPG-lite mechanics of previous Igarashi titles. This demo still feels pretty rough around the edges but it's a beta build, much too early to judge.
Heh, I remember someone said that Hollow Knight looks like flash game. You just can't random forum poster on art direction most of the time.
It astounds me that the graphics look like they do.
I understand it has a limited budget but plenty of indies have done much more with much less. It just looks like they didn't have any vision for a coherent art direction.
I understand it has a limited budget but plenty of indies have done much more with much less. It just looks like they didn't have any vision for a coherent art direction.
my expectations are "whatever". i see it more of a continuation of igavania rather than a balls to the wall castlevania revival. as mind blowing as SOTN was 20 years ago everything else was a fun little time waster, and i see this as a competent continuation of that.
perhaps has the chops to be a "SOTN 2" proper but i don't see it being really amazing nor really lackluster, just if you liked those games here's more of it
perhaps has the chops to be a "SOTN 2" proper but i don't see it being really amazing nor really lackluster, just if you liked those games here's more of it
Abyss Odyssey is such a good comparison too, that game is UE3 and actually looks better graphically. That game was criminally overlooked.
I'm still hoping the last months of development will iron out the ugly, game's biggest issue right now is the lighting, it's straight up flat in some scenes, but ones with more dynamic lighting going on look gorgeous.
I don't like the visuals at all so that's one thing I agree with.
The rest of the complaints seem to ignore this was the E3 demo and it's a vertical slice. The game spams all the stuff at you so you can play around with it during the short demo timeframe you have. There are still a lot of unfinished areas and rooms in this demo. It's clear this isn't anywhere near what the full game will be like.
But the environments of this game are really unpleasant to look at. They really need to do something about this before release.
Also Miriam's hair still doesn't move when she runs nor are there any clothing physics. This is hopefully something they will address. Right now it's like controlling a robot.
The rest of the complaints seem to ignore this was the E3 demo and it's a vertical slice. The game spams all the stuff at you so you can play around with it during the short demo timeframe you have. There are still a lot of unfinished areas and rooms in this demo. It's clear this isn't anywhere near what the full game will be like.
But the environments of this game are really unpleasant to look at. They really need to do something about this before release.
Also Miriam's hair still doesn't move when she runs nor are there any clothing physics. This is hopefully something they will address. Right now it's like controlling a robot.
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My post definitely addresses the fact it's a demo and likely a vertical slice.
Wouldn't a good vertical slice that's trying to show off your game at its best (they've shown three areas btw) try to show off some solid level design? Some memorable layouts?
So many in this thread are convinced that the developer has the plan, time, and talent to make a game that doesn't resemble (at all) what we have seen in every demo and video of this game at this point.
How far into development does a developer start adding traps, hazards, platforming challenges, puzzles, distinct room layouts, clever navigation, and anything else that helps make good level design. None of which we have seen yet.
What I see are big rooms with static/pointless platforms that seemingly serve no other purpose than to give the player soemthing to occasionally jump onto.
I really wish they would show the secretly well designed game they are working on behind the scenes, instead of the most generic and uninspired demos they have been showing for the past few years.
Now, some are saying IGAvanias have always sucked or been like this or whatever. I seriously disagree, and can give examples, but I don't think I need to. Let's concede that point and say all his games are poorly designed like this.
It doesn't matter. This still doesn't cut it compared to the, frankly brilliant, competition that's coming out these days. Do I really need to start pulling up early footage of other indie competition that was showing off far more compelling level design way early in development? Because I can, if need be.
Sorry, I know I'm likely coming off as super heated and don't mean any personal offense to anyone. But I really care about this project and hope that the developers see this, that they take it to heart, and that it's not to late to put some care into the big aspect of what they have shown that is severely lacking.
Oh, and graphics or whatever.
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So much this. SoTN has nothing on Ecclesia. SOTN has great music and art, but the gameplay is embarassingly easy and boring. The later titles improved so much on it.
From the gameplay videos I've seen it seems to deliver what is expected of it.
It does nothing new or special, that's why for me it's a guaranteed skip. But to fans it does what it has to do on a basic level unlike MN9.
It does nothing new or special, that's why for me it's a guaranteed skip. But to fans it does what it has to do on a basic level unlike MN9.
Fair enough but a Metroidvania that doesn't get to ve as good as, say, Hollow Knight it would still be several floors from being categorized as "another MN9" as people keep bringing that up. Even if Bloodstained doesn't live up to the lofty, sometimes impossible, expectations that by in on itself shouldn't make it be mentioned under the same breath as MN9 if the word nuance gets to have any meaning in future Bloodstained threads.
That's categorically wrong. The game was originally slated for 2017 when the original goal was $500,000. Once they got 1,000% more than that by 2016 they realized they'd need an extra year to deliver all those additional stretch goals. So no it never had a 2016 launch date that'd be ridiculous.
Also Iga is making a game completely from the ground up. Even SOTN kept recycling assets, sprites, sound effects, characters, enemies, music from past games. It was even more egregious during the almost annualized GBA/DS Igavania days. That's how he was able to churn them out so quickly. Also neither of those had the size and scope that Iga is aiming for with Bloodstained. Go read the stretch goals again and see just how big they're aiming the game to be and I'm not just talking about the promise about Iga's biggest castle.
This is my biggest worry right now. The demo is just... underwhelming.
I don't think it'll be MN9 levels of disappointment, though, and I think you are doing a disservice to your own thread with this comparison.
But, I understand your concerns, especially about the art style, level design, and the comparisons to other, better Metroidvanias. When 2 people made a better-looking, better-playing Metroidvania with far less budget (this applies to both HK and S&S), it's just hard to feel excited for Bloodstained anymore. I was a backer, but I don't even care much anymore. I hope I'm wrong, but Hollow Knight and Salt and Sanctary look like they're going to be infinitely superior. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ At this point I'm far more excited for Death's Gambit, no joke...
But was that because of its level design, or was it because the game suffered from technical and performance issues? IIRC it was the latter. Not really a valid comparison.
Of course it does. I can't imagine anyone thinking otherwise.
That said, yes, backers accepted the 2.5D compromise and that shouldn't be compared to PS1 pixel art, but the art style is just not there. For pixel art, you got Owlboy and Momodora. For HD 2D, you got Dragon's Crown, Hollow Knight, Ori, and S&S. For 2.5D? You might get GG Xrd among the top visuals, but that's probably too high budget. Honestly though, I feel like even Mirror of Fate (on PC) looked better than Bloodstained... :|
I normally agree but Belmont is also a real-world name so it works.
Now, Sephiroth is a different story
From what I've seen and played, I'm not too worried. I'm not sure why people are so keen to put the Mighty Number 9 stamp on it. It doesn't look amazing, but it doesn't nearly look bad enough to detract from my enjoyment either. The only concern I have is that it might end up lacking an identity of its own. The Metroidvania genre is full of entries that don't really contribute anything to it. They just follow the template to the letter, and even use the same few power-up types as its peers. I hope that Bloodstained has something more to offer than make "another one of those".
Oh yeah, Mirror of Fate definitely looks better.
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There's no way the Bloodstained team didn't hear all these complaints.
I have yet to run into a Sephiroth in real life but if I do I'll be sure to tell them ''your daddy really likes video games huh''
I'm not worried. What I've seen so far looks more or less like the previous non-classic CVs. And that's what I wanted when I backed the game. I haven't played the demos because I only backed the lowest tier, though.
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It's a middle name. Also, most people have asked if I'm into horse racing, not video games.
If the game ends up being the next Order of Ecclesia i i wi be so happy. I love SotN as much as the next person, but Ecclesia waa the push and evolution of the formula. Too bad it was the Swan song for the series too.
Go play hollow knight and be happy!
I dont care that hollow knight doesn't come from a well known director. The important is the finished product and HK is simply amazing!
I dont care that hollow knight doesn't come from a well known director. The important is the finished product and HK is simply amazing!
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My favorite game of last year, and now one of my all time favorites. One of the big reasons I'm so critical of this. It's like viewing RPGs in a post-Witcher 3 world.
I haven't played pretty much any of the classics, so my opinion probably doesn't count for much.
I adored Curse of the Moon, and I think Ritual of the Night looks pretty sweet, going by the Kickstarter Backer demo (videos on youtube, I'm not a backer.)
I will probably buy this game. I don't understand all the negativity.
PS: I have played Hollow Knight.
I adored Curse of the Moon, and I think Ritual of the Night looks pretty sweet, going by the Kickstarter Backer demo (videos on youtube, I'm not a backer.)
I will probably buy this game. I don't understand all the negativity.
PS: I have played Hollow Knight.
With the PC version at least you'll be able to fix the graphics with a decent ReShade setup. I'll probably make my own that focuses on a retro feel, purposefully introducing scanlines, CRT effect, and a little CA might go a long way I hope.
All y'all folks saying things like "at least we got Curse of the Moon, so it's better than MN9 already" are forgetting that an excellent 8-bit+ game by Inti Creates was also the best thing to come out of Mighty No. 9. We got Mighty Gunvolt in almost exactly the same situation, plus an even better sequel not too long after. So really, that's just one more point of comparison between Bloodstained and MN9. I'd be worried because of that -- it's a hard act to follow, so it'll probably make Ritual look worse by comparison!
Basically, it's kind of cheating to say that Inti Creates made it worthwhile, because Inti Creates couldn't make a bad 2D action platformer if they tried.
Basically, it's kind of cheating to say that Inti Creates made it worthwhile, because Inti Creates couldn't make a bad 2D action platformer if they tried.
But most RPGs, including older ones, are far better than W3...
W3 isn't bad, sure, but it's not even close to the pinnacle or even the top of the genre.
I don't disagree with people saying Hollow Knight will be a better game, but playing Hollow Knight and playing this only made me want this one even more. Not because I think it'll be better, but because it feels so different.
Hollow Knight is the game I'll play when I feel like playing Hollow Knight, but Bloodstained will scratch the specific SOTN itch.
Even in the same series this happens. Bloodborne is my favorite Souls game, but that doesn't mean I just keep replaying Bloodborne and ignoring the others, sometimes I just feel like playing one of the others.
I don't need Bloodstained to be the best metroidvania, I just need it to be a good igavania, and it seems like it will be, from what we played. I do wish it looked better, but I don't find it bad enough to be distracting, it can even be charming at times, like the rooms that reflect the red moon's light, they're great.
Hollow Knight is the game I'll play when I feel like playing Hollow Knight, but Bloodstained will scratch the specific SOTN itch.
Even in the same series this happens. Bloodborne is my favorite Souls game, but that doesn't mean I just keep replaying Bloodborne and ignoring the others, sometimes I just feel like playing one of the others.
I don't need Bloodstained to be the best metroidvania, I just need it to be a good igavania, and it seems like it will be, from what we played. I do wish it looked better, but I don't find it bad enough to be distracting, it can even be charming at times, like the rooms that reflect the red moon's light, they're great.
Ikr? I think the answer is pretty simple. Igarashi hadn't made a 3D game from scratch since 2004 and he just didn't learn antyhing new in the meantime and his team is composed of old dogs and low quality mobile developers. Such, the game effectively looks like it came out in 2004.
It's a bit of the same syndrome Shenmue III suffers from.
Or the fact that SOTN had another director first that made half the game before Igarashi came in, and he still worked as a programmer after.
http://shmuplations.com/symphony/
IGA is not as revered in the Castlevania fandom iirc. The general gaming public thinks he's the soul from SOTN but that's a stretch from what I recall.
The visual direction leaves to be desired for sure (while I don't despise it as much as some do). However, the play has looked fine so far. I'm willing to get my hands on it before passing final judgement unlike Mighty No. 9. so it has that going for it.
"Most RPGs", yeah I'll say a big "No." on that one.
The Witcher 3 made me look at a ton of games past and present in a new light, so I'll say it's top of the genre as well. It's masterful. But this thread ain't about Witcher.
"Most RPGs", yeah I'll say a big "No." on that one.
The Witcher 3 made me look at a ton of games past and present in a new light, so I'll say it's top of the genre as well. It's masterful. But this thread ain't about Witcher.
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IGA gets shit because Castlevania fans have been divided for 20 years. Part of the fandom is bitter that it ever morphed into metroidvanias, and I feel like many of these people are the IGA haters.
They act as if IGA isn't at responsible for any of the greatness of SotN. At least that's been the argument ever since the "director change factoid" came to light. Any great parts of SotN had to have been directed by the person who directed Rondo of Blood (the ClassicVania fan favorite). Obviously....
On the other hand IGA is somehow responsible for everything wrong with the series after SotN somehow.
I sure wish we get the real in-depth story some day. So maybe they can stop using this as an excuse for how IGA destroyed their franchise.
Two demos in, and I'm combined they nailed it.
It plays like someone took all the good parts from various igavanias and blended them into a new ip. Rotn plays pretty much exactly as I'd hoped, and looks fantastic to boot. Cotm was also very good, if you are a fan of the old school castlevanias.
Mn9 never inspired such a feeling in me.
It plays like someone took all the good parts from various igavanias and blended them into a new ip. Rotn plays pretty much exactly as I'd hoped, and looks fantastic to boot. Cotm was also very good, if you are a fan of the old school castlevanias.
Mn9 never inspired such a feeling in me.
I see. Well I hope the same too, however reality is reality and Igarashi having worked over the foundations laid by Hagihara who is a proven masterful director probably did amount to SOTN being the masterpiece he is.
Of course he also has know-how from his own, but if you ask me, the only legitimately great game he did after SOTN that wasnt a rip off was Ecclesia and that was a good 6 tries after.
He was also producer there not director so there's that.
I'm not saying he's a hack or anything, but I think people overstimated his ability to just create SOTN 2 in 2018.
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I bet ClassicVania fans are hoping BS is awful so they can use it as their final piece of ammunition in the "IGA sucks" narrative. Ignoring so many other factors for why this game could be bad...
Real talk: Does anyone know what state SotN was in before IGA took over as director? Was it already a Metroid like? RPG elements? Is there a when and why? Why are Rondo/Classic fans so convinced IGA didn't do anything to make the game great. The vitriol for this man is hilarious.
The "producer" argument is lame as well. Considering a producer roll on a small Japanese development team (like I'm sure the handheld games got) isn't they same as say... a modern movie producer vs director.
I don't think anyone likes the 2.5D look of Bloodstained more than the sprite work, but it looks fine. Especially the boat level that has much more polish than the village (which also doesn't have music, indicating to me that different parts of the demo are more "finished" than others). All of these indie games people are mentioning - how long were they in development for? Is Bloodstained an exception here or is just getting unrealistic expectations put upon it?
Also, the movement/control criticisms I've heard in this thread and others are a bit baffling to me. This game controls just as responsive to me as SOTN does. I'm beginning to think my Playstation 1 is broken or something, because Alucard moves SLOW in that game. I feel Miriam actually moves faster. Iga set out to mimic/recreate a SOTN style game and he has definitely done that.
At the end of the of the day, I backed this game at 60 bucks, the same price as most new releases, and already got Curse of the Moon as a freebie out of it. If the demo is even slightly rerpresentative of what the final release plays and looks like, and I think it will, I'll consider my money well spent.
This game is not going to be break 80+ on metacritic, regardless. I bet the reviews for this game will be slightly better than average, with a throughline in most of them about how it tried "too hard" to be a SOTN clone.
Also, the movement/control criticisms I've heard in this thread and others are a bit baffling to me. This game controls just as responsive to me as SOTN does. I'm beginning to think my Playstation 1 is broken or something, because Alucard moves SLOW in that game. I feel Miriam actually moves faster. Iga set out to mimic/recreate a SOTN style game and he has definitely done that.
At the end of the of the day, I backed this game at 60 bucks, the same price as most new releases, and already got Curse of the Moon as a freebie out of it. If the demo is even slightly rerpresentative of what the final release plays and looks like, and I think it will, I'll consider my money well spent.
This game is not going to be break 80+ on metacritic, regardless. I bet the reviews for this game will be slightly better than average, with a throughline in most of them about how it tried "too hard" to be a SOTN clone.
This is where I'm at.
There are so many indies even in the same genre that completely outclass the visuals of this game. Hollow Knight, the Steamworld games, Shantae, Ori, etc.
They had millions of dollars, I don't understand why it looks so ugly. Everything looks too sterile and lifeless
This is the only kickstarter I've backed and I'm also feeling rather ambivalent over how the product is shaping up. Nothing really stands out that much. I think it'll be another of those nostalgia fueled projects where people are attached to the pedigree of the developer and they get more or less what they asked for, but the expectations are just too high and there's other talent out there today that have a better grip pn iterating the same type of formula.
While true, it's also fair to say that many indies are games that were worked on over many years by people in their spare time, or for free, rather than people actually getting a paycheck. Including most in this genre. It also helps when you don't pointlessly include extremely low spec platforms like the Vita in your scope of release platforms.
In anycase the visual problems really have nothing to do with the budget in this case, it's a lack of talent and cohesive art direction, among other things like the aforementioned Vita issue. I'm sure it will continue to improve a bit until release, but it's obviously not going to wholesale change into some visually beatiful game.
In that interview I linked the original director said he worked "until halfway through development as director and the other half as a programmer" so yeah it's not like IGA did all the lifting.
To what extent he made SOTN what it is now, who knows. We knew he came up with the inverted castle so there's that.
Yeah, its hard to get excited about the next fallout when you have the Witcher..
At least we can hope developers will evolve what hollow knight and the witcher created... we began with castlevania and final fantasy 1... it's a matter of time until these new games become the new paradigm.
From what I've seen so far, the game doesn't look that bad. The graphics are not really great, sure, but I think I'll survive (tbh, I think the next castlevania on mobile looks better).
About the level design, it might be too soon to be pessimist about it I think. When I look back at SOTN, it wasn't really a platforming game either. What I want from a metroidvania is a lot of secrets.
About the level design, it might be too soon to be pessimist about it I think. When I look back at SOTN, it wasn't really a platforming game either. What I want from a metroidvania is a lot of secrets.
I really don't get why people feel the need to downplay Iga's role in SotN. We know from interviews he was instrumental in the game's design choices. Like how he used Zelda as inspiration for the progression. Or how he wanted the game to be longer. And that he wanted to avoid the bargain bin the previous entries were in.
Even before he was director he was creatively involved in the programming and the story. He even created the timeline aspect.
Even before he was director he was creatively involved in the programming and the story. He even created the timeline aspect.
Already, it's looking to be a satisfying Igavania for me. Yeah, the stuff after the ship doesn't look so hot visually, but I chock that up to it's still being a work in progress. In any case, the fact he's putting it out there on a fairly routine basis now for viewing and play -- along with his comments at the end of the demo -- suggests he's determined to do the best job he and his team can. I mean, the guy's totally open to negative criticism, he's showing it in a warted state, and he's closed the kickstarter. So, he's definitely not trying to milk the cash in the same way that was done with MN9.
Nah, this is gonna be a good game. To me, it already is. Just not fully cooked yet.
Nah, this is gonna be a good game. To me, it already is. Just not fully cooked yet.