I don't know. I only stated that I'd be okay with it if that were the reason why. I'm seeing conflicting narratives in this thread, so I don't know who's accurate and who isn't. Which is why I said I'll wait until I've heard more.
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[New York Times]: In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
- Thread starter Thisman
- Start date
OP
OP
Here again showing bias against Muslim culture by saying these ghetto places because they are majority Muslims are rampant with sexism homophobia and xenophobia. I would love to hear your opinion on the Muslim communities in Minnesota
Sorry, you are completely wrong again
"Daycare is optional for all western danish natives while this government run program is NOT optional after age 12 months of age for non western migrants which the government calls ghetto kids"
Eh, there are Danish with migration background too. Honestly this alone shows you don't have a clue about the situation, but the rest of your sentence also isn't true
Reading the article above, it seems to be free regardless and used by 98% of Danish people.
It's not free, you have to pay out of pocket, the cost differs depending on where you live in Denmark.
I hope you understand the difference between Scandinavian socialistic welfare state and USA. I mean, seriously? The poster you quoted literally meant segregated parallel societies in there, which are a problem (stems from poverity, like the poster said). Is Muslim community parallel society in Minnesota?
Last I checked, the vast majority of ghettos around the world are created by the actions of the ethnic majority, not the immigrant minority. Minorities tend to face housing discrimination that limits the places where they can live. Meanwhile, as soon as the number of minorities hits a certain tipping point of 20% of a community or so, white flight occurs: all the white people in the neighborhood suddenly think they are in a ghetto and move out of town. Very quickly, that 20% minority number grows to nearly 100%, and property values tank.
Considering how common and well documented these phenomena are, I am skeptical that they are not occuring in Denmark to some extent.
child care is not free .. it costs around 520 Euros.. you can apply for help to pay, or a lower price for it.
I've made some corrections for the Google translation marked with bold:
Thanks! I didn't want potential translation errors to derail the discussion.
Could you translate this bit?
"Med læringstilbuddet får børnene målrettede forløb, som skal hjælpe deres danske sprog og generelle udvikling på rette vej, ligesom børnene gennem leg og aktiviteter bliver introduceret til de danske traditioner, højtider, normer og værdier, vi lever efter her i landet."
It seems to be from a press release announcing the policy.
Translation: "target-based process in order to help their language skills and general development on its way. Through play and activities the children will be introduced to Danish traditions, holidays, norms and values that we live by in this country."
What you need to understand is that this is mostly fluff. The children will go into regular daycare with Danish children. We don't have religious day care centers. Most likely the day care workers care as little about religion as other Danish adults. Introducing them to Danish holidays just means that they will learn what they are.
Housing discrimination is not a thing in Denmark but white flight definitely is - though the perception of these areas is improving among Danes - particular native Danish students enjoy the lower rents. The lower rents attract immigrants - though they could move out intro the provinces and countryside with equally low rents. Maybe staying somewhere where you can join an immigrant community in a strange new country is attractive but it may not be the wisest choice.
Thank you for that piece.. And by that I mean thank you.. This actually mentions MUCH more then was in any other article I could find.
And I take back some of the post I have made here..
The whole shit is here..
http://socialministeriet.dk/media/1...gatorisk-laeringstilbud-og-skaerpet-straf.pdf
The are required to learn about Easter, Christmas etc.. but in regards to how they are celebrated in Denmark, so that you know why school/work etc. is closed on these days. This is not in a religious way..
They even mention that if the parent does not want this, then they can chose to take care of their kids themselves. The parents will be under observation for a month, where they will be judged if they are good enough to do the same as the daycare..
there is much more there...
You know, not to undercut you here, but it's probably a good idea to link this: The full proposal that the discussed policies are part of. Still in Danish, since there isn't an English version, I checked. And yes, it's called the "Ghetto Proposal".
Because, well... One more key factor here is to disallow people who are on government aid to move into these areas. Be it integration aid or unemployment aid. And even to demolish parts of these areas an rehouse the residents elsewhere. They are essentially planning to choke these areas out. No new immigrants or unemployed people allowed and massive evictions/rehousing to get the people already there to scatter. The daycare bit is honestly pretty small in comparison.
Yes, that's true. I suppose that is a kind of housing discrimination.
If you want to get outraged over these policies, this is what you want to focus on. I guess I should translate the whole thing and send it to nytimes but honestly... they should do their own research. :-)
Yeah, if you want to look at blatantly racist and classist policies, this is the section you want to look at. Locking people out of affordable housing because they need affordable housing.
The daycare bit is the part put in to make it look nicer. the "See, we're looking after the children!" part. As this thread shows, it makes some people go "Well, it's not completely horrible..." but that is the built in deflection. And yes, considering how well that worked here, you can take that as you will. The rest of it is much more infuriating.
The New York Times article this thread is based on is an example of awful journalism, and the OP made it even worse by using a misleading and inflammatory title which he knew would get everyone riled up (especially people without knowledge about Denmark, which appears to include himself). A moderator was kind enough to change the title a while ago.
To fight poverty, segregation and parallel societies, having children attend public day care seems like an excellent idea, giving them the basic tools (like language) needed to succeed in life. Most of Europe never before cared about integrating these immigrants.
What is problematic is having harsher punishments for certain crimes in specific areas; I don't see how this can be constitutional. If someone were to challenge this in the European Court of Human Rights it would most likely be deemed illegal.
So true. Previous governments have treated immigrants like disabled people and just left to rot in too many cases. Obviously as time passed things went wrong because people who grow up in these communities don't think they have a very bright future and cycle of poverty is set. I was raised in very multicultural neighborhood in a pretty "rural city" so to speak and most of my friends were immigrants. They learned the language fast (kurds and vietnamese mostly) and we played together without any issues. As an adult lived in a multicultural area in the capital for a year and well yeah, didn't like it that much. Not a ghetto by any means but warning signs are bright as a day, segregation is an issue and I really hope we can avoid mistakes made by other northern countries.
OP
OP
So not only is it discriminatory against Muslims if a perso from the ghetto commits a crime the punishment is double that of a non ghetto punishment . What a wonderful way to push danish values.
Comply or get out is the message to the migrants .
https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/3/...t=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
So Denmark is:
1. Making women who wear full face veils criminals
2. Double punishment for people living in predominately Muslim neighbours
3. Mandatory Separation of kids from mothers at 12 months only for people in majority Muslim neighbours
4. Denmark's immigration minister says fasting is dangerous for danish society
5. Danish prime minister says these places have their tentacles everywhere
And we are era folks defending Denmark
The message: we dislike Muslim culture. Either conform fully to danish culture or show yourself the door
It walks like a Bigot, it talks like a bigot, but it's really helping the kids ...
What's amazing : Denmark government or some era folks don't care what the people in these ghettos think. They just don't care. They want to force them to do their willing or get out
Lovely
That's not what the proposal is.
It's that kids from age 1 will be in daycare (for free) that is state run.
The parents that refuse to participate, thus refuse to integrate, will not receive welfare.
The parents are given a choice. A bad one, but a choice .
Did you not read the thread? They don't lose all their benefits, only the specific child benefit.
"Later that month, Denmark passed a billbanning people from wearing full-face veils in public spaces. This will affect Muslim women who wear the burqa, which covers the face and body, and the niqab, which only covers the face."
As I said back then, this is excellent. Facial expression is an important part of human interaction, and by permanently covering your face in public (which basically removes an integral part of what makes a human human, turning you anonymous) you set up an impenetrable barrier excluding yourself from the rest of society. A free and open society has no place for this misogynist practice (why aren't men covering their faces?).
All of Europe should have such laws.
As I said back then, this is excellent. Facial expression is an important part of human interaction, and by permanently covering your face in public (which basically removes an integral part of what makes a human human, turning you anonymous) you set up an impenetrable barrier excluding yourself from the rest of society. A free and open society has no place for this misogynist practice (why aren't men covering their faces?).
All of Europe should have such laws.
It's one thing to make the kids learn Danish (if you're gonna stay in the country you gotta be able to communicate after all), but it's another to take people's kids away.
They aren't taking them away. They are making kids of families who are on welfare and receive child benefits (paid for by the rest of society) go to free public daycare for a couple of hours a day (like 95% of Danish children do) to integrate them and give them a chance to get out of poverty instead of becoming welfare recipients, too once they grow up.
Yeah but no kids are being taken here.
You either have your child attend daycare with all the other children that lives in the country.
Or you lose part of your welfare, child benefits. You can still get normal welfare however.
So the kids going to daycare isn't mandatory after all? It's just that if the parents refuse, they lose some part of their welfare benefits? The OP says "Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments", which doesn't equate "mandatory" to me. Unless I'm missing something.
It seems silly to call this "separating the kids from their families". We don't talk about school like that, not sure why daycare is.
Child benefits specifically, not all benefits. I'm not Danish myself so someone else needs to comment on what else people usually get there, I assume something like unemployment benefit and housing benefit which wouldn't be affected at all by this. I'd also be interested how much the child benefit is? It's 95 euros per month in Finland, though single parents get 50 euros more.
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According to the Danish text, this is the correct interpretation. Child benefits are at risk, but nothing else. At least from that part of it.
Sorry if I missed it if it was mentioned before, but how much are those benefits on average, any idea?
EDIT
~100€ or ~116$ per month, unless I am mistaken? Based on http://www.newcitizen.dk/da/Living-in/Families-and-children/Child-benefit.aspx
Not that much.
I don't know all of them off-hand, sorry. There's a lot of different kinds of benefits and they have individual adjustments, too. You don't get rich off them, but you don't go hungry either.
$2350 is the amount you receive if you have a kid. Then you get the child benefits on top of that which is $234 a month paid quarterly. On top of that you get housing benefits which varies based on the size and rent of your apartment. It ranges from $100 to $625 a month. A single mum on benefits could potentially get $2684-3209 a month in benefits.
Apparently the one that will be affected if you do not send your kid in daycare is the child benefits.
Apparently the one that will be affected if you do not send your kid in daycare is the child benefits.
OP
OP
True they don't need child benefits . They can survive without them
/s
To be fair, it is called "obligatorisk" ("mandatory") in the original Danish press release as well as the government programme, but you are right in that the consequence of ignoring the regulation wouldn't result in kids being forcibly brought to daycare, but parents losing child welfare payments. If these payments work anything like in Germany, you basically get them just by having children and adhering to certain rules (e.g., regular medical exams of young children).
I think a lot of this whole thing is not just lost in translation, but also based on ignoring that all these regulations aren't concrete laws (yet), but basically fluff pieces in the form of press releases, government programmes, and agreements between the government and the biggest opposition party (the Social Democrates) detailing what the government wants to do. The last sentence on that subject is "Initiativet udmøntes bl.a. via en ændring i dagtilbudsloven, hvor de nye regler forventes at træde i kraft d. 1. juli 2019.", which means the Day Care Act has yet to be altered and the new rules are expected to be implemented beginning July 2019.
That is correct. I think this topic should be locked and replaced with an aptly titled thread, with an opening post containing actual information instead of a few random quotes and a knee-jerk reaction.
"Don't project your American racial guilt on us! Europe has no racism!"
OP
OP
Sure and you probably think the danish government doesn't have an anti Muslim streak the last 2 years also ? Right ?
As with every post I keep saying Muslims in Denmark are treated as second class for the most part because not a single person asked or talked to the minorities to ask how things can get better. Not a single time it has been brought up here as well because disturbingly it has become acceptable that their word is less so trust the government
I mean what the hell
Are they locking people out of affordable housing, or are they moving affordable housing out of these so-called ghettos? Liberal cities in the US are attempting to spread out affordable housing, not concentrate it all in one area.
OP
OP
You think when the immigration head of Denmark says fasting is dangerous for danish society . PM says these immigrants have their tentacles everywhere. When punishment for poor immigrants is doubled compared to non immigrant Danes, when those women who wear the full veil are treated as criminals and now this are being talked to or asked what they want ? Think about it
Yes, I believe some portions of the government talks to them. Not the figureheads, but some of the people who actually have to interact with people. Plus, you didn't phrase it as your opinion, you phrased it as a fact. It's nice to be able to back things like facts up.
Thanks to those of you who clarified these news laws. They sound completely reasonable and could help these new immigrants quite a bit.
That's obviously a very, very different situation with your great grand parents. I also find the compulsory Christian lessons completely ridiculous. But I think in 2018, for new immigrants, learning the language of the country they just became or will become a citizen of has got to be a given.
Oh you mean your fellow countrymen? The countrymen of the country you decided to go to? Those "masters"? The people you should feel kinsmanship with and *communicate* with? Learning their language, *your* language? Get a grip. Do you have any idea how *lonely* many immigrants feel and how isolated they are from natives? That's because of the **language barrier.**
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I still gotta hear more about that, because so far it just sounds like "what is a Christmas and how does it work" type scenario
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A little column A, a little column B.
They are locking out people from these areas to stop the flow of low income people to the affected areas and they are evicting and rehousing people who already live there. Presumably to more spread out locations. The idea is to average out the areas so they cease to be vulnerable. Which is done by stopping the in flow, demolishing buildings, and rehousing the residents. When they say they don't want the areas to exist by 2030, I think bulldozers are part of that plan. If you can't fix it, level it and try again.
It's very, very blunt.