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Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,178
No, you don't see it. You only know where they are caught. You don't see how they intervene with politics and wars in other countries. That's what I am alluding to. Or would you say that this is legitimate? I have a feeling that there is some mix up here. Maybe it is on my part, and if it is then I have no problem admitting it.
And maybe I am out of my depth here and the NSA doesn't spy on foreigners anymore or other countries. But that would surprise me a great deal.

I think the point is that posters like The Albatross have gone to great lengths with excellent, well thought out and detailed posts that outline multiple sources, direct and indirect, to justify their arguments, whereas you continue to argue with absolutely nothing to back up your claims, couching it with "can't I ask questions?" Giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you don't realize you're doing it, but this is the essence of a bad faith argument.
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
I think the point is that posters like The Albatross have gone to great lengths with excellent, well thought out and detailed posts that outline multiple sources, direct and indirect, to justify their arguments, whereas you continue to argue with absolutely nothing to back up your claims, couching it with "can't I ask questions?" Giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you don't realize you're doing it, but this is the essence of a bad faith argument.
Ah ok. I didn't know it was the essence of bad faith argument. I always come from a mallable standpoint. Because I never pretend to know everything. That's why my posts are intermingled with questions. I never like to take a definitive standpoint because you can always know more. But I never intend to argue in bad faith. That would just be a waste of time. Can you give me tips so I can avoid looking like arguing in bad faith?
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,958
I am not Chinese and i don't get paid to post my opinions. And Whataboutism can be used when its valid.

Let me get this straight : You're Canadian and this thread is about America and China. You don't like the human rights in China so you want America another country that has a dark past regarding human rights to collapse China? Would you support a war with U.S vs China?

I don't think that anybody in the United States, Canada, or elsewhere, wants the US to "collapse" China. This isn't about war or military conflict at all, and nobody in the US or China is remotely close to going to war or any sort of military intervention. Hell, The Trump Administration's recent antagonism with China and Huawei isn't even based on human rights abuses in China, they've notably left that out of their trade negotiations entirely -- something that me and others have been critical of the Trump Administration for. The State Dept. had raised the issue of persecution of religious minorities in China in ~2017 when trade negotiations began, but they seemingly dropped that issue over the last year ... If I had a hunch it's because the Administration learned that it was Muslim minorities being persecuted, and they dropped that issue so it didn't interfere with trade negotiations. I think that's a cowardly decision of the Trump Administration and par for the course for them, as the Trump Administration has continually turned its back to human rights violations around the globe.

When I bring up human rights abuses in China, like children being turned into orphans because their parents read them the Qur'an at night (which has been documented by the New York Times and Guardian), or family members of Chinese ex-pats being "disappeared" by a police state (similarly well documented), I don't do so with the ends of justifying a military conflict. I do so to bring light to something that a lot of people just generally don't know about.

Ideally, for me, I'd like trade negotiations between the US and China (which, btw, the US and China have a tremendous amount of concurrent trade) to have contingencies for improved human rights in China, especially for religious minorities. This isn't even a tall ask. I wouldn't expect for China to dismantle their surveillance state, that'll never happen and it's unrealistic. But, China did not crack down on Muslim minorities ~15 years ago, at least, it wasn't widespread bordering on genocide as it is today. My goal would be that by bringing these uncomfortable topics up, it helps motivate people to encourage the American government to use its economic leverage in China (which, the US and Europe has tremendous economic leverage) to encourage the Chinese government to stop persecuting religious minorities.

My skepticism with Huawei is more far reaching, but more personal. I'd actively oppose contracts in my home state that we might make with a company like Huawei to implement the eventual 5G rollout in the US. I think this is a valid concern of the state. Huawei has proven to be a disingenuous technological partner in the past, and I don't really care what they do in ... China, the Philippines, Brazil, or Ecuador, but I would actively petition my state against partnering with Huawei to implement wireless infrastructure where I live. It can't be trusted, the threat to Chinese ex-pats in America is too great, and at the end of the day, I'd rather my state partner with a company from Korea, Japan, Europe, or the United States ... Paying more for the rollout, but with a stronger partner that doesn't have a dubious track record of contributing to the surveillance and crackdown of Chinese dissidents. That's why I won't buy Huawei devices, either. I work with Chinese ex-pats and Chinese citizens living abroad in the US, and I don't want my device to unwittingly be used by the Chinese surveillance state to track the patterns of Chinese citizens outside the country ... It's just not something I'm willing to be a part of if I know it happens (which it does, though right now, not internationally ...... that we know about)

This isn't just about governments for me either. I was very critical of Google for "secretly" partnering with China to eventually bring Google search back to China. When Google pulled Google search out of China a decade ago, I really gave them a lot of praise. That was a force for good, a good decision for them, that they wouldn't compromise on values for the huge paycheck of doing business in China. Since then, the paycheck has been too alluring and their relationship with China had normalized, so they started developing a censored Google search with China. I get it, there's billions of dollars for them doing that and they're going to miss out on this because Baidu or WeChat or any other company will just fill that void for them and happily comply with Chinese government censorship, but I'm still critical of Google for starting to compromise their values for the payday.
 
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Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,178
Ah ok. I didn't know it was the essence of bad faith argument. I always come from a mallable standpoint. Because I never pretend to know everything. That's why my posts are intermingled with questions. I never like to take a definitive standpoint because you can always know more. But I never intend to argue in bad faith. That would just be a waste of time. Can you give me tips so I can avoid looking like arguing in bad faith?

I can't tell if you're being facetious or are just the most earnest poster ever.. but I'll take you at face value!

The idea is essentially that a person is outlining potential, tangential or even imaginary counterpoints - ie. saying we don't know what surveillance in the US is like - in response to real, concrete and deeply concerning evidence that someone else outlines (ie. the relatively sound evidence that Albatross and others have provided). I don't think anyone is saying you're wrong per se, and I think everyone would agree that, taken on it's own, surveillance by the NSA (and probably more importantly private tech corporations) in America is a real concern. But the weight of evidence is critical to consider, always and everywhere.

A similar scenario often exists in climate change "debates" or vaccination "debates" (not that I am drawing a complete analogy to the actual content of those and your discussion points) where deniers will flatly state their denial or doubt of said topic on the basis of insufficient evidence, having (a) not reviewed it (b) not provided any counter-evidence and (c) not stated what level of evidence they are looking for to move beyond their doubts. The scientific process is the best model for thought, and its the best basis for informative discussion - online or anywhere else.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
"Fine" from the PRC's perspective, sure. The PRC is taking advantage of a brain drain to lure young people to the mainland. Taiwan's economy has been struggling lately and the PRC is taking advantage.
I do, and I dislike the American government very much. However, compared to the current CCP I'd take the current American government over them 100 times out of 100.
Taiwan trades with PRC. Don't start me with brain drain nonsense, Taiwan has a strong identity despite PRC's interference.

And just because PRC is bad, unilateral protectionism is good?
 

Maccix

Member
Jan 10, 2018
1,251
The worst thing in this thread is the racism between Americans and people from other countries. "You Americans think..." "you would be nothing without us in the nato". This is so wrong on so many levels and just shows how much influence trump has. Stop that shit.

Most posters here on this board probably haven't voted trump, and most don't support his views. You can hate trump without hating the people on here,even if there may be a single point where they don't think he is absolutely wrong.

Oh,and I'm a German citizen(born here too often, but grandparents were polish refugees)as it becomes more and more important in this discussion where you are from it seems
 

Bliman

User Requested Ban
Banned
Jan 21, 2019
1,443
I can't tell if you're being facetious or are just the most earnest poster ever.. but I'll take you at face value!

The idea is essentially that a person is outlining potential, tangential or even imaginary counterpoints - ie. saying we don't know what surveillance in the US is like - in response to real, concrete and deeply concerning evidence that someone else outlines (ie. the relatively sound evidence that Albatross and others have provided). I don't think anyone is saying you're wrong per se, and I think everyone would agree that, taken on it's own, surveillance by the NSA (and probably more importantly private tech corporations) in America is a real concern. But the weight of evidence is critical to consider, always and everywhere.

A similar scenario often exists in climate change "debates" or vaccination "debates" (not that I am drawing a complete analogy to the actual content of those and your discussion points) where deniers will flatly state their denial or doubt of said topic on the basis of insufficient evidence, having (a) not reviewed it (b) not provided any counter-evidence and (c) not stated what level of evidence they are looking for to move beyond their doubts. The scientific process is the best model for thought, and its the best basis for informative discussion - online or anywhere else.
First and most important. Thank you for this wonderful post. I am someone that is very closed in real life. But also one that loves to discuss. It is easier for me to be honest online because I feel safer online. Because nobody knows me. I have questioned things all my life, and it is simply in my genes to do that. But I loved your post. Because I love reading philosophy and also like to learn about calculus, Biology, chemistry, etc... I think I come in these threads more with feelings and questions without enough of the facts. That's why you see me using arguments and questions at the same time. I also like to correct or maintain my arguments along the way. Because otherwise your views are set in stone. But I 100% agree that I should come into this with much less feeling and more with facts. So I will try to do my best next time. Although it is an automatic behavior to me. I always make long posts to show that I am honest. Because I don't like some drive-by posts because it doesn't show involvement in the thread. But I don't want to be seen as argumenting in bad faith either.
 

Deleted member 36622

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 21, 2017
6,639
"Fine" from the PRC's perspective, sure. The PRC is taking advantage of a brain drain to lure young people to the mainland. Taiwan's economy has been struggling lately and the PRC is taking advantage.
I do, and I dislike the American government very much. However, compared to the current CCP I'd take the current American government over them 100 times out of 100.

Taiwan's economy is fine, GDP is still growing, and now they will take advantage of the Sino-US trade war.

Republic of China - Taiwan is fine as long as Tsai-Ing-Wen is there to call out Mainland China's nonsense.
 
Oct 28, 2017
993
Dublin
Good. Let the US' dominance as world superpower galavanting around telling every country what it can and cannot do come to a swift end. This decision, alongside others this administration has taken to antagonise the Chinese, has solidified the fact that the US government now see China as a rival emerging geopolitical and economic superpower.

The United States abuses its power in the international arena, intervening in areas which affect its national interests, but ignoring worse situations elsewhere. Perhaps the Chinese will push the US to become less aggressive, more diplomatic, and peaceful to show how contrasting the two powers systems of governance are which would benefit the world a lot.
 

wayward

Member
Oct 27, 2017
40
A few posters here keep bringing up Nortel and how Huawei killed the company but from the few articles I read that doesn't seem to be the entire picture. Not that China didn't spy on Nortel or that their spying didn't have some effect - that part I totally believe - but it seems the company was already on a downhill slope because of poor management - overvaluation of stocks, a huge accounting scandal, government bailouts, etc. The US even filed charges against the company for fraud.
 

Makai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
103
Here's the thing Mainland China wants to apply the One country Two Systems to Taiwan, KMT would immediately accept it, and that would immediately mark the end of Taiwan's democracy and freedom.
DPP propaganda. Both parties have the same position on de facto independence. Anyway, totally irrelevant to the Google ban.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
Here's the thing Mainland China wants to apply the One country Two Systems to Taiwan, KMT would immediately accept it, and that would immediately mark the end of Taiwan's democracy and freedom.
That's a different thing. I don't know how attacking Chinese companies (And by extension, Taiwanese ones) benefits Taiwan in any way. China's political influence has to be prevented from affecting other countries, but the US being the world's police with Trump's trade war is not the way.
 

Vitet

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,573
Valencia, Spain
In fact, in some countries like Spain it's first ahead of Samsung too.
*In Spanish* said:
En el conjunto de 2018, y también según cálculos de IDC, Huawei también fue el fabricante que más móviles vendió en España, con un total de 4,61 millones y una cuota de mercado del 29,4%. Le siguieron Samsung (3,66 millones, 23,4 %), Xiaomi (1,93 millones, 12,3%) y Apple (1,9 millones, 12,2%).
https://www.abc.es/tecnologia/movil...tivos-espana-huawei-201905210121_noticia.html
 

Balls

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
297
I don't like the current Chinese government and their censorship and human rights record. If that's self hating then a huge chunk of Taiwanese and Hong Kong non brainwashed prople are too . Ive bee pretty open about that


How about you. Why do you engage in whataboutism ? Are you Chinese? Are you being paid to post here?
I'm Chinese Canadian as well and I hope your issue is with the Chinese government and not with being Chinese as a whole cause internalized racism is a thing and IIRC, I've seen you make some questionable comments in other threads that have nothing to do with the CCP.
 
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Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
I'm Chinese Canadian as well and I hope your issue is with the Chinese government and not with being Chinese as a whole cause internalized racism is a thing and IIRC, I've seen you make some questionable comments in other threads that have nothing to do with the CCP.
Race has nothing to do with it. It's political disagreement.

Edit: nvm.
 
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Deleted member 36622

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 21, 2017
6,639
Actually Taiwan has a lot to lose from a high tech US-China trade war. Really bad outcome for them.

That's a different thing. I don't know how attacking Chinese companies (And by extension, Taiwanese ones) benefits Taiwan in any way. China's political influence has to be prevented from affecting other countries, but the US being the world's police with Trump's trade war is not the way.

There are Huawei competitors in Taiwan, think about Asus and Acer. Look at Foxconn, in light of this mess they are moving part of the production in Taiwan.
 

Balls

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
297
Race has nothing to do with it. It's political disagreement.

Edit: Also please produce receipts on your accusations about my claims being questionable. I'm pretty straightforward about my views on China, and don't try to play mind games and do whataboutism or deflection. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's not the same as my posts being questionable.

The comments of yours I've come across that rubbed me the wrong way have nothing to do with the CCP but with Chinese culture/identity:

The restaurants usually provide a serving spoon. But it is hard to tell great Uncle Wang to use it when he transitions from eating to picking food and dips his chopsticks into the sauce.

Was the second part really necessary? Do you actually have a great Uncle named Wang or did you just choose a random Chinese name as an exaggeration to get some point across? I'm not sure what that point is because I'm sure there's an uncle in every ethnic group that double dips.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/th...-restaurant-in-china-went-viral.86445/page-10

As a visible minority of Chinese descent stuff like this is infuriating knowing i will personally feel the negative impact from the actions of citizens from a country i am mot part of.

Sadly here in Vancouver, they assume Chinese due to the massive influx of mostly wealthy mainland Chinese.

I get what you're saying here but It seems like you're trying to distance yourself from being Chinese due to the perception of Mainland Chinese citizens. I find this problematic because the people who you should really direct your anger towards are the people who are ignorant enough to discriminate against you due to the actions of other people. Also generalizing everyone from mainland China instead of seeing them as individuals only perpetuates these harmful stereotypes the same way White people here generalize us.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ch...ights-over-treatment-of-tourists.69137/page-7

Your comments aren't the worst thing ever but I do get a sense that you hold some resentment towards being ethnically Chinese.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
The comments of yours I've come across that rubbed me the wrong way have nothing to do with the CCP but with Chinese culture/identity:



Was the second part really necessary? Do you actually have a great Uncle named Wang or did you just choose a random Chinese name as an exaggeration to get some point across? I'm not sure what that point is because I'm sure there's an uncle in every ethnic group that double dips.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/th...-restaurant-in-china-went-viral.86445/page-10

Relating my own experience. That's a really benign comment. I even noted what Chinese restaurants do (provide serving spoon as a huge hint on proper etiquette) can't control what I observed some in my familly will do. If you are irked by it (wow, digging up 6 month old comments) then you seem to have a problem with any criticism of our culture and practices being perhaps unappetizing for some people (i know lots of people are totally fine with poking with your own chopsticks on a shared dish, but not everyone is)



I get what you're saying here but It seems like you're trying to distance yourself from being Chinese due to the perception of Mainland Chinese citizens. I find this problematic because the people who you should really direct your anger towards are the people who are ignorant enough to discriminate against you due to the actions of other people. Also generalizing everyone from mainland China instead of seeing them as individuals only perpetuates these harmful stereotypes the same way White people here generalize us.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ch...ights-over-treatment-of-tourists.69137/page-7

Your comments aren't the worst thing ever but I do get a sense that you hold some resentment towards being ethnically Chinese.

Ask any minority, if someone of their race does something and it makes the news, they're often embarased for their own race and feel the need to overcompensate. Maybe it's an overreaction, but it's a natural one. Your issue seem to be to view any criticism of China and Chinese people as an attack or 'racism'. It's super lazy way to look at the world. I'm allowed to be critical of my own race.

That 2nd post is from 8 months ago. So you either have a super long memory, or you are way too invested in this trying to dig up my post history having (checking...) on 136 posts yourself since 2017. So how invested are you in actual discussions instead of policing thought here?

Do you have anything else to add outside of trying to smear me for being a racist or having internalized racism? I don't appreciate it.
 
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Balls

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
297
Relating my own experience. That's a really benign comment. I even noted what Chinese restaurants do (provide serving spoon as a huge hint on proper etiquette) can't control what I observed some in my familly will do. If you are ired by it (wow, digging up 6 month old comments) then you seem to have a problem with any criticism of our culture and practices.





Ask any minority, if someone of their race does something and it makes the news, they're often embarased for their own race and feel the need to overcompensate. Maybe it's an overreaction, but it's a natural one. Your issue seem to be to view any criticism of China and Chinese people as an attack or 'racism'. It's super lazy way to look at the world. I'm allowed to be critical of my own race.

That 2nd post is from 8 months ago. So you either have a super long memory, or you are way too invested in this trying to dig up my post history.

Do you have anything else to add outside of trying to smear me for being a racist or having internalized racism?
I mean I don't know if you have internalized racism or not. Only you can answer that. I just want you to love yourself bro. The only reason you feel the need to "overcompensate" is because of insecurities. There's no reason to feel insecure about being Chinese.
 

SupremeWu

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,856
The worst thing in this thread is the racism between Americans and people from other countries. "You Americans think..." "you would be nothing without us in the nato". This is so wrong on so many levels and just shows how much influence trump has. Stop that shit.

Most posters here on this board probably haven't voted trump, and most don't support his views. You can hate trump without hating the people on here,even if there may be a single point where they don't think he is absolutely wrong.

Oh,and I'm a German citizen(born here too often, but grandparents were polish refugees)as it becomes more and more important in this discussion where you are from it seems

This community has been like that since way before Trump, most discussions usually (quickly) devolve into "you stupid americans suck at everything".

Since it matters where we're from I was born in India and my family immigrated here, so please don't just call me a random white privilege-haver with thin skin. This type of very blatant disparaging of one specific group based on where we live has been ubiquitous since the old place, it didn't start with Trump and won't end with him.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
There are Huawei competitors in Taiwan, think about Asus and Acer. Look at Foxconn, in light of this mess they are moving part of the production in Taiwan.
Lots of the supply chain, and not just of phones, relies on Chinese companies. China is not just a cheap place to assemble electronics anymore, hasn't been for years. If people cannot understand how the US unilaterally fucking with Chinese companies is a huge problem, I mean, I'm out, I just can't.

For the record, 26% of Taiwan's exports go to China, and 20% of their imports come from China. China is their biggest trading partner, which is pretty natural considering transportation costs and that they are specialized in the same sectors. So it goes without saying that fucking with China's economy fucks with Taiwan's economy, and that isolating China will probably have the side effect of isolating Taiwan as well.