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“Generic white dude video game protagonist.” How does this trend/phrase make you feel?
- Thread starter Spring-Loaded
- Start date
Post removed due to other posters failing to read the conversation and getting mixed up when quoting me.
The OG picture was posted in this context:
Poster: I've never seen Snake/Big Boss being called boring and Generic.
Venom: Hey, this picture used to be shared on sites and was used to try and point out that Big Boss was a generic white dude.
That was the intention and it would have been clear if you'd read the conversation. Thank you.
The OG picture was posted in this context:
Poster: I've never seen Snake/Big Boss being called boring and Generic.
Venom: Hey, this picture used to be shared on sites and was used to try and point out that Big Boss was a generic white dude.
That was the intention and it would have been clear if you'd read the conversation. Thank you.
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Stereotypes, yes. A reality for many black men in America as well. Do you not represent that side to not offend the well to do blacks who live in high quality and highly diverse areas? I really don't know the answer to that one. I'll take more CJs though. Growing up poor in NYC where half my friends where shot or the one doing the shooting it came off as relatable.
Sony AAA releases. I left out Bloodborne which lets you pick your own character. Gran Turismo, Drive Club and Ratchet.
I picked Sony because they are the only ones doing cinematic games. Everyone is either making RPGs that let you pick whoever you want, or doing multiplayer only games. OP's problem was with Days Gone's white male lead so i figured i would point out Sony's record on white male leads.
Yep which is something I want more of and something the industry needs to do in order for under represented races, sexes, genders to get their share of representation.
Edit: my OG post was in regards to the last part of the Ops post btw. It's a mindset that was common on GAF and on Era.
I'd rather play as a visual minority than a white guy. I've played enough games as a white guy, I want to mix it up. But good writing is good writing, I'll enjoy a character of any race as long as they're well written. I just find that, more often than not, characters of races other than white are better written than white characters.
Generally speaking.
Generally speaking.
Ok big boss is a reach...but that's about the only reach in a collage of about 40 grizzly white dudes. One of these is not like the others! Plus he's one of the few MCs of a triple A franchise that isn't made in the West and doesn't have spiked hair.
This and variants used to be posted a lot which includes Big Boss. It was used to point out that all these characters are average boring characters.
I feel that, with honesty, there's representation in it, something I took for granted and no, I'm not ashamed of it, but I concede it's time to mix things up as we have been doing.
In particular, when it comes to wish fulfilment, I'm getting increasingly impatient for games where you're a hetero white female protagonist as part of the story. This is something I feel, in the pursuit of diversity we skipped over by using one size fits all stuff.
If it's not strong poc woman it's a teenager who kisses with girls, and a lot of creepy eyecandy for men, but we haven't seen the female Nathan Drakes, the heroic housewives or superhero women that fall in love with men as white people.
It's this corporate, self-aware diversity that has taken over in many games. We can't just explore one aspect of non-white-male "non-diversity" settings, no, we had to cover all ground; check as many boxes as possible so we can be recognized as "pro-diversity" or "pro-feminism". A movie like Black Panther, now that has my respect, as a movie that explores black culture in a hyperrealistic fiction. Diversity is cool too but we can do both across several games imo, and it's a matter of mentality, business vs creativity or blatant political pencil-pushing vs artistic integrity.
I hope this doesn't come across as racism, as it isn't the intent. The thing is, after playing the Batgirl DLC in Arkham Knight, my brain has been in "where the fuck is my Batgirl game??" Ever since.
I think I've become numb to it at this point. It just doesn't spark any reaction in me.
Though there are plenty of disappointing/lazy examples, there have also been a couple of games with lazy character designs that were made up for with good writing though those tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
Though there are plenty of disappointing/lazy examples, there have also been a couple of games with lazy character designs that were made up for with good writing though those tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
GTA IV starred Nico who was a poor immigrant living in the ghetto. The only main character I can think of that had money was Micheal. Trevor lived in a trailer, which was stereotype. Maybe, just maybe, that's the point? You're not going to have anyone that is well established simply start committing crimes if they don't need the money.
I stopped buying games with them really, I got bored of them but my problem is more with their gender.
I don't mind new characters made as diverse as possible. As always, it's when they change stablished characters designs that I don't really like. But having new IPs with woman, POC, etc. characters is probably the best thing in the industry right now.
I'm not a fan of generic characters of any ethnicity or gender and while it's true that there are a lot of bland protagonists in games who are white and male, I hate the rhetoric that if a character is white and male he's by nature generic. It shits on all the hard work of the creators.
I also think if people want to see something specific they should get their fingers out and create that something instead of hoping for an art/design by committee situation. I hear people moan that artists don't have the creative freedom to do this which is a fair argument when discussing the big corporations, but sadly most indie games I see with humanoid characters have white protagonists.
Me and my friend(both white male) recently played a game to see who could name the most non-white main characters in games. The results were pretty depressing.
I also think if people want to see something specific they should get their fingers out and create that something instead of hoping for an art/design by committee situation. I hear people moan that artists don't have the creative freedom to do this which is a fair argument when discussing the big corporations, but sadly most indie games I see with humanoid characters have white protagonists.
Me and my friend(both white male) recently played a game to see who could name the most non-white main characters in games. The results were pretty depressing.
I guess the argument is really at its crux "what is a blank slate?" For example, I don't thingk any of the MCs in persona are blank but they are to some so that game gets a reputation I feel is undeserving. Welp, the saga continues.
This and variants used to be posted a lot which includes Big Boss. It was used to point out that all these characters are average boring characters.
I've spent quite some time on gaf and era but I have never seen this picture before. Image searching this picture on Google, I don't find a lot of articles or postings decrying that all of these characters are boing, but instead criticism that all of these are white men. That's the criticism I have heard a lot, too: Not that every character who is male and white is automatically borin,, but instead that it's a failure of the industry that so many main characters in gaming are white and male and that it was borderline impossble to make a collection like this of female characters or characters who weren't white. This has started to change during this console generation but was absolutely a very valid complaint, one that directly lead to the change we're going through right now.
It will always be the best approach however we're all shaped in our minds by our preconceived biases. Sometimes the lack of non-whites has less to do with corporate selection and more to do with authors constantly being inspired by the peers to their art, which historically has like a 90:10 ratio between white lead characters and poc lead characters.
This is a really good reply. Thank you for this! Yeah Franklin and CJ were a breath of fresh air in reality. Especially CJ because it was at a time where the industry was literally creating the macho white dude games.
Franklin was an amazing character though and my personal favourite GTAV character. Michael was just boring, Trevor was scary but funny and Franklin was a funny guy who had the funniest scenes. Especially with his Aunt haha.
Arthur came off as a cartoon in the 2nd trailer but everything I've seen since makes me more hopeful he'll be good, especially since they've shown him interacting positively with minorities and women. I have a lot of respect for Dan Houser as a writer so I'm very hopeful.
There is also a big difference for me between making a historical fiction game with a white guy and choosing a white male (MC member) to lead your modern day franchise.
A lot of this just comes from the fact that the people making video games (or making movies) are often just white dudes who are most comfortable in making a character most similar to them (Neil Druckmann already wrote a great female character but as she becomes the focus of his next game, he still sought out a female writer since she has a perspective that he couldn't have). The industry needs to give women and minorities more chances on the creative side of things so that we can start rectifying the deluge of white dude protags. Once diversity of people and ideas starts happening more often threads like these won't need to exist.
It and it's equivalents were posted on GAF trust me.
But yeah that's not what I'm saying btw. That's my whole point. I just used this is response to the Big Boss post.
I think the most productive way to approach this stuff is not to shy away from stereotypes, but if you're going to include a stereotype then present that person as more than just the stereotype. Make them a relate-able, three-dimensional person. So long as the writers have the ability to do that then they're actually sending an empathetic message. I think Rockstar did that with Franklin. Maybe not Lamar, though.
Sorry I'm In sounding like a rockstar fanboy but there is a reason I won't criticize rockstar or a high tier developer like naughty dog for their protagonist choices compared to other developers. Because I know I'm getting a developed protagonist which is why I'm much more optimistic of Arthur compared to say the guy from Days Gone.
I'm a dude and I ain't white, and I don't really care if the protagonist is white, black, green, red or blue, same with gender. That is, when the protagonist is imposed to us.
When it comes to games where you can create your own character (Saints Row, etc...), I'll usually play a girl, naturally tanned like I am (arabic, latina, asian or something like that).
When it comes to games where you can create your own character (Saints Row, etc...), I'll usually play a girl, naturally tanned like I am (arabic, latina, asian or something like that).
One reason I loved Watch Dogs 2 is that the main protagonist was a person of color and he wasn't a stereotype. He was black, and you could observe the culture in the way the character animated and communicated, but he was a interesting character in his own right.
If game writers could find ways to create characters in worlds that are inspired by culture other than western, eurocentric and anime tropes, we'd immediately see better writing and stories and more unique characters in games in my opinion. Keep in mind, the game development industry (including the decision makers) is dominated by white or asian males, so this is just a result of the perspective the game creators have when creating these protagonists without any outside input.
If game writers could find ways to create characters in worlds that are inspired by culture other than western, eurocentric and anime tropes, we'd immediately see better writing and stories and more unique characters in games in my opinion. Keep in mind, the game development industry (including the decision makers) is dominated by white or asian males, so this is just a result of the perspective the game creators have when creating these protagonists without any outside input.
I don't feel anything. The digital represntation of color of a protagonist is of no consequence to me. Therefore, if I'm playing a female or person of color protagonist all the better as it deeply matters to some people.
So long as it make sense in the story they are telling, then I'm all for diversity and not being deliberately limiting. The real issuse with this are developers that need to seek out and hire diverse talent. This will give us truly meaningful and rich narrative experiences surrounding different protagoists than "generic white male."
So long as it make sense in the story they are telling, then I'm all for diversity and not being deliberately limiting. The real issuse with this are developers that need to seek out and hire diverse talent. This will give us truly meaningful and rich narrative experiences surrounding different protagoists than "generic white male."
Basically this.
Yeah Franklin was a really well wrote character. Shame we never got DLC :(
His boy who was always cracking wise is my jam. That's because I'm the wise -crack in my circle lol.
I don't care what race the protagonist is, I care about how well written the character is. The problem is in general just how generic most playable characters are outside RPG's and the occasional notable exception.
What I mean is that just changing the race of a character is not enough to make it "non generic" a concerted effort has to be made on character exposition and writing. And it's just usually not.
What I mean is that just changing the race of a character is not enough to make it "non generic" a concerted effort has to be made on character exposition and writing. And it's just usually not.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you (and apologies if I do) but I still don't think that picture you posted fits as a counter-argument to my post, because that picture isn't saying that these characters are all bad or boring. Meanwhile, a few people in this thread have said that they are tired of people calling out Big Boss or Snake as boring characters just because they are white.
I think so too. The internal conflict of seeing the gang fall apart is ripe with good opportunities to write a good character. Along with the rest of the gang.
Besides, in most Westerns, the characters ARE the point of the whole narrative. Books and movies. Just take Lonesome Dove (Pulitzer prize winning western)...Gus McCray and Woodrow Call. Two of the best characters in literature.
Who can forget Lamar haha, I'm glad they included him in Online as a prominent character.
First, what is Days Gone's Bikerman#334?? Is that an actual video game?
To the topic, white male protagonists don't bother me at all. If it matters, I'm a full racial Chinese male (but born and raised in america).
Actually I would never even think about the topic if I hadn't been on GAF and now ERA. If all main chars were white males, I wouldn't even really notice. If they were all asians, that'd be fine too. Never been an important issue personally.
Now obviously there have been white chars who are boring, but that has nothing to do with race to me. That's personality.
To the topic, white male protagonists don't bother me at all. If it matters, I'm a full racial Chinese male (but born and raised in america).
Actually I would never even think about the topic if I hadn't been on GAF and now ERA. If all main chars were white males, I wouldn't even really notice. If they were all asians, that'd be fine too. Never been an important issue personally.
Now obviously there have been white chars who are boring, but that has nothing to do with race to me. That's personality.
I feel like people don't realize that putting a minority or female protagonist in there to replace the "generic white dude" doesn't stop them from being "generic" characters. Days Gone's Bikerman#334 would still be Days Gone's Bikerman#334 if he was another race or a woman.
That being said, "generic white dude" was the template for a while. If they wanna mix it up a bit by replacing "generic white dude" with "generic minority" or "generic female," I don't care. It makes no difference to me, and I'm sure there are people of different races or another sex happy to see their race/sex represented. Go right ahead.
That being said, "generic white dude" was the template for a while. If they wanna mix it up a bit by replacing "generic white dude" with "generic minority" or "generic female," I don't care. It makes no difference to me, and I'm sure there are people of different races or another sex happy to see their race/sex represented. Go right ahead.
I've gotta say that specifically Days Gone and Read Dead Redemption 2 disappointed me with their choice of protagonist.
Maybe they'll turn out great, but based on what I have seen so far I am not interested in them at all.
I just feel like I've seen the perspectives white dudes in certain situations(wild west, zombie apocalypse) often enough.
Maybe they'll turn out great, but based on what I have seen so far I am not interested in them at all.
I just feel like I've seen the perspectives white dudes in certain situations(wild west, zombie apocalypse) often enough.
They likely would've been generic no matter what, for the games that discriptor can actually be prescribed to.
Swapping palletes isnt suddenly gonna net you a mafia 3 lead character, you gotta actually have some ambition for that
And more games Devs should have that ambition of actually having something to say, regardless of if they succeed or not. Otherwise, what's the point?
I really do wish red dead 2 switched it up, so many different things to explore but so be it.
Swapping palletes isnt suddenly gonna net you a mafia 3 lead character, you gotta actually have some ambition for that
And more games Devs should have that ambition of actually having something to say, regardless of if they succeed or not. Otherwise, what's the point?
I really do wish red dead 2 switched it up, so many different things to explore but so be it.
Well sometimes I feel like some people say that anytime the protag is a white male. White male doesn't automatically mean generic to me, though yes I do think many white male protags do look generic.
As a colored guy, I really don't care about what race / gender I'm playing - as long as there is solid character development. If there's a character creation option, I usually go with female + crazy hair.
I REALLY don't care what the character looks like as long as the game is fun.
I REALLY don't care what the character looks like as long as the game is fun.
CJ and Franklin were both great characters. I think Lamar stood to be that component that made Franklin stand out as pragmatic, rational etc. The thing is, I think most of us have a friend that's a Lamar. Maybe not precisely that, but that lack of foresight, rash person. So it felt right at home in the situation. Having Lamar being someone who's representative of a traditional stereotype wasn't really a bad thing. Without the foil, Franklin doesn't stand out nearly as much.
I know R* will do justice with Arthur's story and make him a deep interesting character.
Days Gone though... I just don't know. That character just looks boring as a whole. Still gonna buy it for the setting and Hordes though.
White and male:
The part that tends to annoy me is that they're usually all incredibly similar seemingly in terms of height, build, voice and general hair style. I just ultimately find it boring to look at and listen to as it tends to be somewhat jock-ish and like I said, very samey.
I'm all for any and all shapes, colors, hair styles or whatever just for the sake of changing it up already. While reading reviews etc. of Shadow Of The Tomb Raider I couldn't help but think it'd be more interesting to see a person of said cultures we're exploring to be the lead in a similar styled game. I don't have a problem with actual Tomb Raider doing its thing and all that, I frankly don't really care either way, but there should most certainly be a more even playing field.
I have zero interest in projecting myself onto a video game's protagonist personally, so I truly don't care.
The part that tends to annoy me is that they're usually all incredibly similar seemingly in terms of height, build, voice and general hair style. I just ultimately find it boring to look at and listen to as it tends to be somewhat jock-ish and like I said, very samey.
I'm all for any and all shapes, colors, hair styles or whatever just for the sake of changing it up already. While reading reviews etc. of Shadow Of The Tomb Raider I couldn't help but think it'd be more interesting to see a person of said cultures we're exploring to be the lead in a similar styled game. I don't have a problem with actual Tomb Raider doing its thing and all that, I frankly don't really care either way, but there should most certainly be a more even playing field.
I have zero interest in projecting myself onto a video game's protagonist personally, so I truly don't care.
Don't really think much of it myself since it feels like a vast chunk amount of games already do this motif. Pretty sure if someone said, "My favorite Persona protagonist is the generic white dude," you'd probably be asking a few more follow up questions from there in terms of who we're talking about (Minus one or two titles). I suppose the other thing too is that in spite of someone being the "Generic White Dude Protagonist," we see how they develop from there so that they don't become as generic as we first see them.
It's a safe bet. Like it or not, most of the U.S. are 'generic white people', and so that's probably the type of character that most players feel they can 'relate' to. In a lot of situations, it probably just makes the most sense from a realism standpoint. I remember some people getting upset about the lack of racial diversity in Witcher 3, but they were inspired by historical Poland which was apparently very homogeneous in terms of the population being white. I'm all for diversity, but I think it hampers creativity if developers feel like they are required to include certain types of people even if it goes against their vision. And sometimes you can just tell that they did it for that purpose and then it just feels off.
Perhaps the problem is that devs aren't being diverse enough with the setting of their games. I don't know if I can think of a single game that takes place in, say, ancient Africa. I think that'd be pretty sweet game - just having to deal with lions, rhinos, crocodiles, etc. would be enough to have an interesting game.
Perhaps the problem is that devs aren't being diverse enough with the setting of their games. I don't know if I can think of a single game that takes place in, say, ancient Africa. I think that'd be pretty sweet game - just having to deal with lions, rhinos, crocodiles, etc. would be enough to have an interesting game.
Common is a synonym for generic. So during that time when basically all protagonist were 30-something white males, a 30-something white male was generic indeed just by being a 30-something white male. If most characters had been elderly Nicaraguan ladies, then elderly Nicaraguan ladies would have been considered to be generic.
Sure it does. Generic white guy is a thing because in the past 99% of these characters were white guys. If you made them women or minorities that would automatically make them less generic given they wouldn't be the normal. Generic means fitting into a template or normalized.
This idea that characters gotta be well written in addition is false. Only a handful of media as a whole is well written. That is not a useful baramoter.