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“I don’t think I like Prestige Games”

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CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,987
A movie industry friend of mine once said that Christopher Nolan was attending the world’s most expensive film school, because every film he made was teaching him stuff he should have already known. But, hey, throw in a messy metaphor for the surveillance state in The Dark Knight or whatever and people think you’re a fuckin genius.
Lol this made me laugh, and is also kind of true.

I actually don't agree with the article's main points, but it was an interesting read at the very least.

It's one person's inoffensive opinion; you guys need to calm down.
 

VanDoughnut

Member
Oct 30, 2017
876
My buddy Cory and I finished Gears 5 this morning.

We sat there in stunned silence. I wanted to cry because of something the story absolutely earned. I was thrilled and gobsmacked and heartbroken and so much more. It is the best game I played this year. Cory, as we recovered, kept describing it as ‘lean.’ There was nothing unnecessary in the game. If it was there, it’s because it had to be there.

Gears 5’s design was so thoughtful, so aware of what it was doing and how to accomplish that. It’s a thoroughbred of a game, a brilliant thing, a truly special game. It felt like playing an AAA game for the first time, seeing what that was truly like
My buddy Cory and I embraced when we reached Gear's credits. Just like the jaw dropping conclusion of the final scene, this hug felt completely earned. The embrace of our hug was also surprisingly tight, unlike the gunplay mechanics in Uncharted 2.

Gears 5 rocked me to my core. I was pimp slapped by the quality, shellshocked by the audacity of a game daring to defiantly be a game-y game, and I was honored to be strong enough to withstand its relentless onslaught of good game design.

Cory continued to cry. He was utterly broken by the goodness and trueness of Gear's 5 campaign. He was hysterical. He left the room and ate a bunch of frozen pizzas, raw. He just refused to heat them in the oven. I was pissed.

-Anyway, Gears was a religious experience. Was akin to looking into God's eyes. His benevolent form looking back at yours, shaking his head in agreement as if to say "The Last of Us is just the Road. We have PS4s in Heaven. Played it and it was a 7 at best. One and done type game, wouldn't play it again tbh. Thinking bout selling my PS4, I'm overwhelmed by my Switch anyway..."
 

AudioEppa

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,850
My buddy Cory and I embraced when we reached Gear's credits. Just like the jaw dropping conclusion of the final scene, this hug felt completely earned. The embrace of our hug was also surprisingly tight, unlike the gunplay mechanics in Uncharted 2.

Gears 5 rocked me to my core. I was pimp slapped by the quality, shellshocked by the audacity of a game daring to defiantly be a game-y game, and I was honored to be strong enough to withstand its relentless onslaught of good game design.

Cory continued to cry. He was utterly broken by the goodness and trueness of Gear's 5 campaign. He was hysterical. He left the room and ate a bunch of frozen pizzas, raw. He just refused to heat them in the oven. I was pissed.

-Anyway, Gears was a religious experience. Was akin to looking into God's eyes. His benevolent form looking back at yours, shaking his head in agreement as if to say "The Last of Us is just the Road. We have PS4s in Heaven. Played it and it was a 7 at best. One and done type game, wouldn't play it again tbh. Thinking bout selling my PS4, I'm overwhelmed by my Switch anyway..."
You are now one my favorite posters on era.

🤣🤣🤣
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
i find that's an accurate description of a subset of movie and game fans, and i don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that out.

e. the rick and morty fandom is maybe the most perfect example of this.
It's fucking nonsense though. I don't feel "validated" for enjoying Uncharted and The Last of Us. I play them because they are enjoyable and speak to me.

They are well crafted and have enjoyable characters. Uncharted is a pulp adventure, and the Last of Us is a thrilling character drama wrapped in a third person shooter/horror game. One inspired by Indiana Jones and old dime novels, and the other inspired by post apocalyptic fiction like The Road and western deconstructions like No Country For Old Men (both Cormac Mccarthy novels).

Whats condescending is the writer's assumption that people who enjoy these games are too stupid to recognize the things they are inspired by. The thing is, it DOESN'T MATTER if a game has pieces of plot or themes that are derivative of some books and movies. All fiction is derivative to some extent. Execution is what makes a piece of media good, and by most people's metrics, they are very good games.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,199
My buddy Cory and I embraced when we reached Gear's credits. Just like the jaw dropping conclusion of the final scene, this hug felt completely earned. The embrace of our hug was also surprisingly tight, unlike the gunplay mechanics in Uncharted 2.

Gears 5 rocked me to my core. I was pimp slapped by the quality, shellshocked by the audacity of a game daring to defiantly be a game-y game, and I was honored to be strong enough to withstand its relentless onslaught of good game design.

Cory continued to cry. He was utterly broken by the goodness and trueness of Gear's 5 campaign. He was hysterical. He left the room and ate a bunch of frozen pizzas, raw. He just refused to heat them in the oven. I was pissed.

-Anyway, Gears was a religious experience. Was akin to looking into God's eyes. His benevolent form looking back at yours, shaking his head in agreement as if to say "The Last of Us is just the Road. We have PS4s in Heaven. Played it and it was a 7 at best. One and done type game, wouldn't play it again tbh. Thinking bout selling my PS4, I'm overwhelmed by my Switch anyway..."
well done my dude
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
My buddy Cory and I embraced when we reached Gear's credits. Just like the jaw dropping conclusion of the final scene, this hug felt completely earned. The embrace of our hug was also surprisingly tight, unlike the gunplay mechanics in Uncharted 2.

Gears 5 rocked me to my core. I was pimp slapped by the quality, shellshocked by the audacity of a game daring to defiantly be a game-y game, and I was honored to be strong enough to withstand its relentless onslaught of good game design.

Cory continued to cry. He was utterly broken by the goodness and trueness of Gear's 5 campaign. He was hysterical. He left the room and ate a bunch of frozen pizzas, raw. He just refused to heat them in the oven. I was pissed.

-Anyway, Gears was a religious experience. Was akin to looking into God's eyes. His benevolent form looking back at yours, shaking his head in agreement as if to say "The Last of Us is just the Road. We have PS4s in Heaven. Played it and it was a 7 at best. One and done type game, wouldn't play it again tbh. Thinking bout selling my PS4, I'm overwhelmed by my Switch anyway..."
Is the quoted section an excerpt from the article?

Oh jesus fuck, I just read the excerpt!!

LMFAO

I'm enjoying Gears 5, but fucking come on. You are going to dog Uncharted and The Last of Us for their writing and gameplay but treat Gears 5 as profound and meaningful? Gears 5 is hammy as all hell, and not in a way that feels self aware at times. The characters are enjoyable, but they are far more quippy than even Nathan Drake, and the plot is VERY standard "heroes save the world" stuff.
 
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John Frost

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,156
Canada
My buddy Cory and I embraced when we reached Gear's credits. Just like the jaw dropping conclusion of the final scene, this hug felt completely earned. The embrace of our hug was also surprisingly tight, unlike the gunplay mechanics in Uncharted 2.

Gears 5 rocked me to my core. I was pimp slapped by the quality, shellshocked by the audacity of a game daring to defiantly be a game-y game, and I was honored to be strong enough to withstand its relentless onslaught of good game design.

Cory continued to cry. He was utterly broken by the goodness and trueness of Gear's 5 campaign. He was hysterical. He left the room and ate a bunch of frozen pizzas, raw. He just refused to heat them in the oven. I was pissed.

-Anyway, Gears was a religious experience. Was akin to looking into God's eyes. His benevolent form looking back at yours, shaking his head in agreement as if to say "The Last of Us is just the Road. We have PS4s in Heaven. Played it and it was a 7 at best. One and done type game, wouldn't play it again tbh. Thinking bout selling my PS4, I'm overwhelmed by my Switch anyway..."
I’m dying.
 

Matthew77

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,863
Massachusetts
It's fucking nonsense though. I don't feel "validated" for enjoying Uncharted and The Last of Us. I play them because they are enjoyable and speak to me.

They are well crafted and have enjoyable characters. Uncharted is a pulp adventure, and the Last of Us is a thrilling character drama wrapped in a third person shooter/horror game. One inspired by Indiana Jones and old dime novels, and the other inspired by post apocalyptic fiction like The Road and western deconstructions like No Country For Old Men (both Cormac Mccarthy novels).

Whats condescending is the writer's assumption that people who enjoy these games are too stupid to recognize the things they are inspired by. The thing is, it DOESN'T MATTER if a game has pieces of plot or themes that are derivative of some books and movies. All fiction is derivative to some extent. Execution is what makes a piece of media good, and by most people's metrics, they are very good games.
I have said multiple times if TLOU was a movie it would be a direct to bargain bin dvd release, as a book probably fan fiction level. It’s effectivness isn’t due to the stories greatness, it’s because no book or movie has ever made me have to bond with the characters like that through controlling them and interactivity.
 

tzare

Member
Oct 27, 2017
923
Catalunya
But his opinion is "anyone who likes a certain type of game is an uncultured idiot." He's casting judgement over other people's taste.

At that point it stops being just an opinion.
Exactly

Fuck what puts you off. You got a problem with games of that style? Ok then go look among the hundreds other games on the market for something else that’s best suited for you. That’s the beauty of video games today rather than many years ago, we all have options. None of us are allowed to feel shit about any studios not crafting their games to our every liking. If its not for you, move onto something that is.
You're still doing the same thing. What you consider to be "mistakes" are strengths to millions of people. Why would ND change their approach because of a few outliers, when their current one has brought them massive success, both commercially and critically?
Just the truth. What doesn't work for one gamer is perfect for another . Unless a game is 'broken' (usually something tech related), there's someone out there that may enjoy it and no one has the right to put his tastes below the others, as happens with this article. In fact that is just elitism or even worse, in fact some political attitudes would really fit that kind of position.
 
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Majora's Mask

Member
Oct 26, 2017
625
I stopped reading at the statement saying that The Dark Knight included a "messy metaphor on the surveillance state and people think you are a fucking genius".

I'm not sure what the point of the OP's blog was but all I'll say is that it was a little embarrasing to continue to go through it.
 

aeolist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,651
It's fucking nonsense though. I don't feel "validated" for enjoying Uncharted and The Last of Us. I play them because they are enjoyable and speak to me.

They are well crafted and have enjoyable characters. Uncharted is a pulp adventure, and the Last of Us is a thrilling character drama wrapped in a third person shooter/horror game. One inspired by Indiana Jones and old dime novels, and the other inspired by post apocalyptic fiction like The Road and western deconstructions like No Country For Old Men (both Cormac Mccarthy novels).

Whats condescending is the writer's assumption that people who enjoy these games are too stupid to recognize the things they are inspired by. The thing is, it DOESN'T MATTER if a game has pieces of plot or themes that are derivative of some books and movies. All fiction is derivative to some extent. Execution is what makes a piece of media good, and by most people's metrics, they are very good games.
i didn't get "everyone who likes these games is a moron" from the blog post as much as "a lot of people who enjoy these games don't think critically about them" which is so obvious it's almost not even worth saying. and there's a difference between getting inspiration and making a bland derivative work, i'd offer control as a good example of the former.

really when you get down to it all he's saying is that a lot of big budget games try to Say Something Important but are compromised by bad writing and having to include so much that's considered essential to modern blockbusters. set aside the specific games he likes and doesn't like and that's a point i think most people on this forum would agree with.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
I have said multiple times if TLOU was a movie it would be a direct to bargain bin dvd release, as a book probably fan fiction level. It’s effectivness isn’t due to the stories greatness, it’s because no book or movie has ever made me have to bond with the characters like that through controlling them and interactivity.
See, I don't agree with that premise at all. A bargain bin DVD release would have neither the production value, nor the acting prowess of the characters in The Last of Us. If you mean purely on plot alone... well... Then I have some news for you. Just about every blockbuster film is derivative and trope laden. Movies are judged on their execution, not purely on their originality alone. The ending of The Last of Us makes it more creative than the half of post apocalyptic fiction alone.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,237
My buddy Cory and I embraced when we reached Gear's credits. Just like the jaw dropping conclusion of the final scene, this hug felt completely earned. The embrace of our hug was also surprisingly tight, unlike the gunplay mechanics in Uncharted 2.

Gears 5 rocked me to my core. I was pimp slapped by the quality, shellshocked by the audacity of a game daring to defiantly be a game-y game, and I was honored to be strong enough to withstand its relentless onslaught of good game design.

Cory continued to cry. He was utterly broken by the goodness and trueness of Gear's 5 campaign. He was hysterical. He left the room and ate a bunch of frozen pizzas, raw. He just refused to heat them in the oven. I was pissed.

-Anyway, Gears was a religious experience. Was akin to looking into God's eyes. His benevolent form looking back at yours, shaking his head in agreement as if to say "The Last of Us is just the Road. We have PS4s in Heaven. Played it and it was a 7 at best. One and done type game, wouldn't play it again tbh. Thinking bout selling my PS4, I'm overwhelmed by my Switch anyway..."
Aaaaaaayyyyyyeee not too shabby!
 

Serpens007

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,426
I imagine that if the writer had use other examples rather than mostly just Sony exclusives (except Bioshock and RDR), and praising other thing instead of Gears (like what he did with Control), the message would have been better recieved.
 

aeolist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,651
I imagine that if the writer had use other examples rather than mostly just Sony exclusives (except Bioshock and RDR), and praising other thing instead of Gears (like what he did with Control), the message would have been better recieved.
i agree that this blog post should have been more sensitive to the enormous insecurities of video game corporate fanboys
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
i didn't get "everyone who likes these games is a moron" from the blog post as much as "a lot of people who enjoy these games don't think critically about them" which is so obvious it's almost not even worth saying. and there's a difference between getting inspiration and making a bland derivative work, i'd offer control as a good example of the former.

really when you get down to it all he's saying is that a lot of big budget games try to Say Something Important but are compromised by bad writing and having to include so much that's considered essential to modern blockbusters. set aside the specific games he likes and doesn't like and that's a point i think most people on this forum would agree with.
The thing is, Uncharted 4 and The Last of Us DONT have bad writing. That is a subjective value judgement on them. Contrived basic plot outlines. Sure, I'll bite. Most of my favorite films though haven't necessarily been crazy original in their premise. Its how they are executed how they are twisted in their conclusion. Both of those games convey their themes very convincingly and the dialogue/ character interactions are first class and believable.

Too many of these think pieces and blogs make the stupid assumption that people who game are media illiterate and can't discern good taste. We don't consume media in a vacuum.

Just because I enjoy the pulpy stuff of Uncharted doesn't mean that I don't also appreciate a film like Eternal Sunshine, Birdman etc.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
i didn't get "everyone who likes these games is a moron" from the blog post as much as "a lot of people who enjoy these games don't think critically about them" which is so obvious it's almost not even worth saying. and there's a difference between getting inspiration and making a bland derivative work, i'd offer control as a good example of the former.

really when you get down to it all he's saying is that a lot of big budget games try to Say Something Important but are compromised by bad writing and having to include so much that's considered essential to modern blockbusters. set aside the specific games he likes and doesn't like and that's a point i think most people on this forum would agree with.
The thing is, Uncharted 4 and The Last of Us DONT have bad writing. That is a subjective value judgement on them. Contrived basic plot outlines. Sure, I'll bite. Most of my favorite films though haven't necessarily been crazy original in their premise. Its how they are executed how they are twisted in their conclusion. Both of those games convey their themes very convincingly and the dialogue/ character interactions are first class and believable.

Too many of these think pieces and blogs make the stupid assumption that people who game are media illiterate and can't discern good taste. We don't consume media in a vacuum.

Just because I enjoy the pulpy stuff of Uncharted doesn't mean that I don't also appreciate a film like Eternal Sunshine, Birdman etc.
 

Matthew77

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,863
Massachusetts
See, I don't agree with that premise at all. A bargain bin DVD release would have neither the production value, nor the acting prowess of the characters in The Last of Us. If you mean purely on plot alone... well... Then I have some news for you. Just about every blockbuster film is derivative and trope laden. Movies are judged on their execution, not purely on their originality alone. The ending of The Last of Us makes it more creative than the half of post apocalyptic fiction alone.
I know my opinion is controversial, I am a genre fan and absorb a lot so to me except for the nature of outbreak I have literally seen or read most of it before. And I am not saying that it’s horrible. My point is that’s not what you see the story as but the experience is from how they tell the story. Mostly through your play. Everything your doing through that game is bonding Ellie and Joel together and you to them. It’s woven so deftly into everything from the combat sections, to the ladder looking and water crossing, the use of cutscenes for when truly necessary and not wasting them on parts where they can get the same effects through interaction, and yes I agree on production and acting.

My favorite movie of all time is Romero’s Dawn of the Dead, but I prefer TLOU because I formed an emotional bond with the characters I never did with Peter and Roger and the rest of the mall crew from DOTD.

I mean winter alone is one of my greatest gaming experiences of all time and it wasn’t because it was breaking new ground for stories as written, but it sure was innovative and groundbreaking for how it forced us to experience that story.
 

tutomos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
672
I have said multiple times if TLOU was a movie it would be a direct to bargain bin dvd release, as a book probably fan fiction level. It’s effectivness isn’t due to the stories greatness, it’s because no book or movie has ever made me have to bond with the characters like that through controlling them and interactivity.
But is it really? I mean is there another movie of the same type that handles the tone this well. The only movie I can think of this caliber is Leave No Trace and that movie appeared on a lot of people's Top 10 list last year.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,708
I get the impression that some simply take criticism either too seriously or too personally.

If you're a huge ND, Sana Monica, Irrational fan then yes, you do need to have a thick skin to take in this blog in good faith. It is tough to watch people nitpick things we're fond of. But the intense blow-back I'm reading here makes me wonder that some feel personally attacked for whatever reason.

I guess in my case I'm used to some of my faves being mercilessly dragged through the mud. I'm a big, dumb Farming Simulator nerd and I know full and well the franchise has problems. The shoestring budget, the jank, the repetitive gameplay loops.

But you know what? None of that bothers me in the least. I think FS is a damn fine IP, warts and all.

That's what's so weird about this thread. It's okay to put something you enjoy under the microscope. It's okay to explore flawed game design in commercial/critical darlings. Sometimes there's interesting takeaways in doing so.

Consumer Identity culture makes people so defensive. It's sad to see when something interesting being said is immediately shot down in a flurry of knee-jerk reactions.

Maybe OP needs an editor to smooth down the rough edges. It's funny, 'cause I was reading the article thinking, "Man there's some legit good criticism happening here. If there were some way to redact specific dev and franchise names, I bet people would be a lot more receptive to the points."

But alas, it's hard to make specific points without naming names.

Still a great read either way though. Goes a long way in describing the fatigue & malaise I feel in the AAA space over the past console cycle.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
i agree that this blog post should have been more sensitive to the enormous insecurities of video game corporate fanboys
No. This is just pretentious. The whole thing was pretentious. Games can try to have something to say, or emulate Hollywood blockbusters AND be fun.

Uncharted 4 and Max Payne 3 are not "hollow" "soulless" or "pale imitation" games. Both are some of my favorite 3rd person shooters of all time. If it weren't for the fact that he lobs the validation argument at people who enjoy these games, it would be a totally innocuous and reasonable blog post. It makes the whole thing seem "I'm above enjoying these games, and you have bad taste for thinking this games are good".

The fact that he lobs this criticism at them and then props up Gears 5 for its writing as something profound (great game regardless) should clue you in on who is doing the fanboying.
 

aeolist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,651
No. This is just pretentious. The whole thing was pretentious. Games can try to have something to say, or emulate Hollywood blockbusters AND be fun.

Uncharted 4 and Max Payne 3 are not "hollow" "soulless" or "pale imitation" games. Both are some of my favorite 3rd person shooters of all time. If it weren't for the fact that he lobs the validation argument at people who enjoy these games, it would be a totally innocuous and reasonable blog post. It makes the whole thing seem "I'm above enjoying these games, and you have bad taste for thinking this games are good".

The fact that he lobs this criticism at them and then props up Gears 5 for its writing as something profound (great game regardless) should clue you in on who is doing the fanboying.
i don't give a single shit about the games he criticizes (i liked uncharted 2 a lot) or the ones he personally likes (a lot of which look like shit to me), i just think his point is salient and in fact the incredibly virulent personal reactions coming from people here proves that they are in fact the kind of people who feel personally validated by the media they consume
 

Matthew77

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,863
Massachusetts
I get the impression that some simply take criticism either too seriously or too personally.

If you're a huge ND, Sana Monica, Irrational fan then yes, you do need to have a thick skin to take in this blog in good faith. It is tough to watch people nitpick things we're fond of. But the intense blow-back I'm reading here makes me wonder that some feel personally attacked for whatever reason.

I guess in my case I'm used to some of my faves being mercilessly dragged through the mud. I'm a big, dumb Farming Simulator nerd and I know full and well the franchise has problems. The shoestring budget, the jank, the repetitive gameplay loops.

But you know what? None of that bothers me in the least. I think FS is a damn fine IP, warts and all.

That's what's so weird about this thread. It's okay to put something you enjoy under the microscope. It's okay to explore flawed game design in commercial/critical darlings. Sometimes there's interesting takeaways in doing so.

Consumer Identity culture makes people so defensive. It's sad to see when something interesting being said is immediately shot down in a flurry of knee-jerk reactions.

Maybe OP needs an editor to smooth down the rough edges. It's funny, 'cause I was reading the article thinking, "Man there's some legit good criticism happening here. If there were some way to redact specific dev and franchise names, I be people would be a lot more receptive to the points."

But alas, it's hard to make specific points without naming names.

Still a great read either way though. Goes a long way in describing the fatigue & malaise I feel in the AAA space over the past console cycle.
Your taste is fine. I think for some of us, like me I remember most posters that post regularly and have a general idea of what they post, and Seuss has a long history of somehow turning any of his articles or blogs or forum posts, always thoughtfully and well written, sometimes even making valid points, but for some reason his points and criticisms never count or apply to Microsoft and it ends up tainting the whole thing and keeping me from enjoying what I do like about his writing.
 

btags

Member
Oct 26, 2017
610
Rochester NY
i didn't get "everyone who likes these games is a moron" from the blog post as much as "a lot of people who enjoy these games don't think critically about them" which is so obvious it's almost not even worth saying. and there's a difference between getting inspiration and making a bland derivative work, i'd offer control as a good example of the former.

really when you get down to it all he's saying is that a lot of big budget games try to Say Something Important but are compromised by bad writing and having to include so much that's considered essential to modern blockbusters. set aside the specific games he likes and doesn't like and that's a point i think most people on this forum would agree with.
Well said.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
i don't give a single shit about the games he criticizes (i liked uncharted 2 a lot) or the ones he personally likes (a lot of which look like shit to me), i just think his point is salient and in fact the incredibly virulent personal reactions coming from people here proves that they are in fact the kind of people who feel personally validated by the media they consume
Someone saying this is stupid criticism is not seeking validation though. I'm going to go on enjoying the media that I enjoy regardless of what anybody says. The blowback that I'm mostly seeing is to the holier than thou tone of it.

Criticism is not valuable for its own sake. It actually needs to say something of value.

Lobbing a baseless accusation at the audience as your form of critique is just bad form and isn't really pertinent to the critique of said games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,030
Someone saying this is stupid criticism is not seeking validation though. I'm going to go on enjoying the media that I enjoy regardless of what anybody says. The blowback that I'm mostly seeing is to the holier than thou tone of it.

Criticism is not valuable for its own sake. It actually needs to say something of value.

Lobbing a baseless accusation at the audience as your form of critique is just bad form and isn't really pertinent to the critique of said games.
Basically this. Really when you get down to it, a lot of the author's posts try to Say Something Important but are compromised by bad writing and having to include so much bad faith takes that it really loses any meaning it might have had.
 

aeolist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,651
Someone saying this is stupid criticism is not seeking validation though. I'm going to go on enjoying the media that I enjoy regardless of what anybody says. The blowback that I'm mostly seeing is to the holier than thou tone of it.

Criticism is not valuable for its own sake. It actually needs to say something of value.

Lobbing a baseless accusation at the audience as your form of critique is just bad form and isn't really pertinent to the critique of said games.
my point is that basically everyone here is taking this blog post as a personal attack when all he's doing is accurately describing a certain set of pop culture fans. if your reaction to someone saying these things is angry personal attacks then you are probably one of those fans.

someone who thinks rick and morty is only for super geniuses will get really mad when a critic says it's not a difficult show to understand and it's not out of line to say that they should try to get some self-awareness.
 

Serpens007

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,426
No. This is just pretentious. The whole thing was pretentious. Games can try to have something to say, or emulate Hollywood blockbusters AND be fun.

Uncharted 4 and Max Payne 3 are not "hollow" "soulless" or "pale imitation" games. Both are some of my favorite 3rd person shooters of all time. If it weren't for the fact that he lobs the validation argument at people who enjoy these games, it would be a totally innocuous and reasonable blog post. It makes the whole thing seem "I'm above enjoying these games, and you have bad taste for thinking this games are good".

The fact that he lobs this criticism at them and then props up Gears 5 for its writing as something profound (great game regardless) should clue you in on who is doing the fanboying.
Of course. He does use words a bit on the "strong" forum language. But I don't think the article really says that people shouldn't enjoy those games. It does come after the high critical acclaim they have, because deep down, they really don't add much, or are much, more than a blockbuster game with high production values that hides the rough edges. And I do believe that Bioshock (2007) is one of the all time greatest games, so of course I don't agree with him saying that Bioshock is stupid, however I don't care about him saying it while praising Halo. That's his taste, and mine is mine. We agree that critical acclaimed games should be better than the hottest game of the season that looks and sounds deep but isnt, or it's just another game that uses the same mechanics as other games, but with better presentation.
 

Druffmaul

Member
Oct 24, 2018
239
Anyone who shits on Uncharted to take it down a peg or two is OK in my book.

But he thinks Alien Resurrection innovated dual joystick aim/move controls in 2000, and that Bungie "borrowed"/modified that idea in Halo in 2001. What an idiot. Everyone knows Bungie was the first to implement mouse free-look in Marathon 1 in 1994, and Halo's dual stick controls were merely the console evolution of that.

Not to mention, Goldeneye was probably the first "dual stick" console shooter in 1997, though hardly anyone played it that way because you literally had to hold two N64 controllers, one in each hand. Before that, you had Turok 1 where you used the d-pad to move and the analog stick to aim, essentially "dual stick" controls before there was such a thing as dual sticks.

"Boo hoo hoo, why is everyone so mad at me just for being extremely dismissive and condescending??? ;_;" What a smug prick.
 
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Theodoricos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
214
The narrative that The Last of Us only gets praised for its story because it's a game needs to die. If TLOU was a movie, I'd still consider it among my top favorites. The simplicity of the plot is a big part of what makes it good - it's more of a character study than anything else.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
my point is that basically everyone here is taking this blog post as a personal attack when all he's doing is accurately describing a certain set of pop culture fans. if your reaction to someone saying these things is angry personal attacks then you are probably one of those fans.

someone who thinks rick and morty is only for super geniuses will get really mad when a critic says it's not a difficult show to understand and it's not out of line to say that they should try to get some self-awareness.
"When a dumb nerd watches a really simple movie like Inception and can follow the plot, they mistakenly believe they are some sort of Super Genius Tactician who is better than everyone. When people play a game like Uncharted and go “wow, it’s like a movie,” they are inclined to champion it until the end of the world because It Makes Them Feel Valid"

I'm sorry but the section prior this explains that "Uncharted 2 is a bad game with bad encounter design", and then leads into this quoted section. It's completely up its own ass, and is basically saying "I say Uncharted 2 is bad, and anyone who thought it was great and impressive is a simpleton who doesn't know what a REAL game is and is just buying into hype." The author clearly can't just accept the fact that people have plenty of real reasons to enjoy Uncharted 2. Just because he didn't find it appealing, doesn't mean that people are too "basic" and "uncultured".

Using your comparison to Rick and Morty you are basically saying "Those rick and morty fans who think the show is smart are delusional. I'm the REAL smart one for seeing it as "just a show"."

And then there is the fact that the whole rick and morty thing is just a meme based off of one post and almost NO ONE actually thinks its "the smartest show ever". Its a stupid strawman.

Yeah there are fans of things that are waaaaay overzealous. But the author is using a critique of the fanbase as his validation for his subjective judgement about the game's "quality." or "artfulness".
 

Lyrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,548
Yeah, I absolutely can see where the author is coming from. I don't think the writing style that was used was subdued enough as to not offend a lot of this forums audience, but regardless of the tact used the point makes sense.

There's definitely a divide to be recognized from simply enjoying a movie or game or any other media and alternatively going on some tangent in an attempt to validate your enjoyment of said thing by framing it as something more than it really is. This type of thing is really observable lately with Marvel Cinematic Universe stuff and games that impersonate many of the successful aspects of films.
 

aeolist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,651
"When a dumb nerd watches a really simple movie like Inception and can follow the plot, they mistakenly believe they are some sort of Super Genius Tactician who is better than everyone. When people play a game like Uncharted and go “wow, it’s like a movie,” they are inclined to champion it until the end of the world because It Makes Them Feel Valid"

I'm sorry but the section prior this explains that "Uncharted 2 is a bad game with bad encounter design", and then leads into this quoted section. It's completely up its own ass, and is basically saying "I say Uncharted 2 is bad, and anyone who thought it was great and impressive is a simpleton who doesn't know what a REAL game is and is just buying into hype." The author clearly can't just accept the fact that people have plenty of real reasons to enjoy Uncharted 2. Just because he didn't find it appealing, doesn't mean that people are too "basic" and "uncultured".

Using your comparison to Rick and Morty you are basically saying "Those rick and morty fans who think the show is smart are delusional. I'm the REAL smart one for seeing it as "just a show"."

Yeah there are fans of things that are waaaaay overzealous. But the author is using a critique of the fanbase as his validation for his subjective judgement about the game's "quality." or "artfulness".
hmm, to me that comes across as "to the extent that uncharted is valued for its blockbuster movie-like qualities, it is defended as an example of videogames as art that insecure gamers have always sought as validation of their hobby as more than just pretty toys".

the rick and morty equivalent would be pointing at those fans who think the show is actually genius and liking it proves that you are ultra smart, you're downplaying the kind of language used in order to make your point.
 

Sadist

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,340
Holland
Honestly, I have ready through the article and with all due respect, while some insights are pretty neat, this article is far too long and takes too long to get to the point. For your next article, please cut out the fat.

Plus I don’t understand some of your criticisms. I mean, looking at your comments about tLoU, the only thing that popped in my mind was “yeah, whats your point?”. If you walk around long enough on this earth you start to expect certain twists and turns, especially if you consume enough media in general. With videogames this is indeed a reocurring problem, but just like in any other type of media its all about the excecution of how it is presented. Your weird notion that this game and others use movies and others to piggyback and want to be considered art, nah.

The way I see it games like these get made because we have experienced these moments in other media and want something that comes close to that particular story. The last of Us for me is such a game because I love post apocalyptic settings in media and the whole gruff man needs to take care of spunky teen girl is very interesting to me. I even enjoyed the gameplay. Is it ground breaking? Absolutely not. But what it strives for, it does well.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,690
I realize a lot of people are calling you a fanboy and insulting you (and a lot of it is out of line/unfair), but do you really not see how condescending this sounds? I promise you there are plenty of people who have seen/read/played most of the things you think The Last of Us (for example) is derivative of who still like The Last of Us. Not because they're ignorant about good storytelling, but because....... they just have different taste from you. You would ruffle a lot less feathers if you could explain why you don't like certain games or genres without insulting the people who do.
I had a resetera mod tell David fuckin' Jaffe that I was such a good writer I was using my good writerly skills to make good games look bad.

Imagine having dozens of people messaging you to tell you that you're a stupid dumbshit for honestly liking some games and honestly disliking some others and doing your best to talk about it. Maybe you'd be a bit sour too after 17 pages of discussion, half of which act like you aren't even here, about a post you made on your personal blog to try to understand why certain games weren't working for you.

Think about the overwhelming onslaught of directed negativity and tone policing and what that might make someone feel. I mean, there was a guy in this very thread, on page five, digging up an interview I did ~half a decade ago~ to argue that it represented my present maturity. There was a guy posting in this thread arguing that this thread was 'masturbatory' when some person just linked a blog post they thought was cool. I didn't even know this thread existed until it got to like 5 pages.

Think about how fucking shitty people are being, how frustrating it might be to get constantly mischaracterized by assholes on a forum who just really want everyone to believe you can't be trusted--so they perform the untrustworthy action of lying about you and saying "he hates sony games" when, literally, in this thread, you can get a link to my EVEN LARGER post on how i LOVE a sony exclusive game a whole lot.

you might be a bit fucking grumpy too

No, I don’t fanboy any company or consumer product, your just pretentious and this post is a good example, you just wrote a small op ed when you could have just said you think anyone who doesn’t agree is a Sony fanboy, because for all the flowery words that’s all you said.
nah, several people in this thread are absolutely sony fanboys and they're willing to lie about me and my motivations to do it. a resetera staffer did it on twitter to david fucking jaffe.

and here's the thing: david jaffe disagrees with some of the things i said and we had a nice little conversation about it. like polite adults. because that's how adults interact.

people going around going "doc just hates sony games" are fuckin liars, i don't give a shit what they think
 

Mansa Mufasa

Member
Jun 17, 2019
142
Red Dead Redemption is one of the most thought provoking, well written, fully realized games ever made. I won't stand for the fuckery or slander.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
hmm, to me that comes across as "to the extent that uncharted is valued for its blockbuster movie-like qualities, it is defended as an example of videogames as art that insecure gamers have always sought as validation of their hobby as more than just pretty toys".

the rick and morty equivalent would be pointing at those fans who think the show is actually genius and liking it proves that you are ultra smart, you're downplaying the kind of language used in order to make your point.
OK.

But HOW MANY people literally think Rick and Morty is a "Genius show that only super intelligent people can understand"?

Its a dumb meme dude. Almost everyone I know watches and loves the show, but no one has any notions of it being "only for smart people".

The author uses a strawman about fanbases to validate his criticism of certain games rather than approaching them on their own merits.

And YES Uncharted 2 WAS significant for the artform of videogames at the time of its release.

There was nothing like it at the time in the way it executed its plot structure and gameplay.


I do agree that too many people want to feel the validation of it being an "equal art" to film and tv, but thats entirely separate from the criticism of the game itself.

Nevertheless, Uncharted 2 was a milestone for modern gaming. There is a reason so many games have aped it's structure and tone.

The author seems to have missed (or intentionally avoided) its historical context for the medium.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,423
hmm, to me that comes across as "to the extent that uncharted is valued for its blockbuster movie-like qualities, it is defended as an example of videogames as art that insecure gamers have always sought as validation of their hobby as more than just pretty toys".

the rick and morty equivalent would be pointing at those fans who think the show is actually genius and liking it proves that you are ultra smart, you're downplaying the kind of language used in order to make your point.
Saying a game is only valued for one aspect because you dislike something is stupid to begin with .
Lets take the new GOW for eg some people think because people enjoy the story that game play lower or some nonsense .
When the truth is people enjoy many aspect of any media .
 

DocSeuss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,690
Nevertheless, Uncharted 2 was a milestone for modern gaming. There is a reason so many games have aped it's structure and tone.

The author seems to have missed (or intentionally avoided) its historical context for the medium.
what games? please show me these games.

I haven't missed it, I just happen to think you're wrong. Crystal Dynamics' tomb raider games were the biggest uncharted-influenced games out there. Much more of last gen was influenced by Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare--it's the defining game of the generation, with the most obvious influence out there. Uncharted 2 was influenced by Call of Duty 4 (the guy who led Uncharted 4's gameplay design was actually a former Infinity Ward guy, haha)

Red Dead Redemption is one of the most thought provoking, well written, fully realized games ever made. I won't stand for the fuckery or slander.
it's not. it's a game with inconsistent characterization, that apes sam peckinpah without really understanding him, that uses the housers' shitty misanthropy to no real affect. It's a game where you have a cliche sequence of a Native American character going "white man doesn't understand nature, that bear would not have attacked if not fired upon" but also in the game, bears are super super aggressive entities that will absolutely murder your fuckin horse.

Rockstar is great at ~performance~ and ~dialog~ but they are terrible at narrative; there's nothing Red Dead Redemption does narratively that is new, interesting, or brilliant. It's all cribbed from elsewhere, and it's never as good. A friend just linked me to a really cool video showing how the early train robbery from RDR2 rips off the Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford and, like... yeah, rockstar's version is shit in comparison.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,237
The core idea that wide audiences are propping up these games out of yearning for artistic validation of the medium is highly specious but probably worth pondering none the less.

The part people are laughing at -aside from the horrific writing- is how this conclusion is clearly derived from reasoning backwards. Starting from ' I don't like these games for reasons', and reasoning backwards from there. All to arrive at the conclusion that multimillion-selling blockbuster games designed to appeal to the widest possible audience are only feigning merit, artistic or otherwise.

There's a kernel of discussion in there, but one shouldn't be surprised that its overshadowed by this delightful train wreck of a post.

All that aside, I think this is a lot of scrutiny for a blog post. It just happens to be one hell of a blog post.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,690
The core idea that wide audiences are propping up these games out of yearning for artistic validation of the medium is highly specious but probably worth pondering none the less.

The part people are laughing at -aside from the horrific writing- is how this conclusion is clearly derived from reasoning backwards. Starting from ' I don't like these games for reasons', and reasoning backwards from there. All to arrive at the conclusion that multimillion-selling blockbuster games designed to appeal to the widest possible audience are only feigning merit, artistic or otherwise.

There's a kernel of discussion in there, but one shouldn't be surprised that its overshadowed by this delightful train wreck of a post.

All that aside, I think this is a lot of scrutiny for a blog post. It just happens to be one hell of a blog post.
It's weird because I didn't think anyone would read it. maybe like the usual 5-6 friends or something. I don't know why it blew up.

I think jaffe nailed it

 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
I had a resetera mod tell David fuckin' Jaffe that I was such a good writer I was using my good writerly skills to make good games look bad.

Imagine having dozens of people messaging you to tell you that you're a stupid dumbshit for honestly liking some games and honestly disliking some others and doing your best to talk about it. Maybe you'd be a bit sour too after 17 pages of discussion, half of which act like you aren't even here, about a post you made on your personal blog to try to understand why certain games weren't working for you.

Think about the overwhelming onslaught of directed negativity and tone policing and what that might make someone feel. I mean, there was a guy in this very thread, on page five, digging up an interview I did ~half a decade ago~ to argue that it represented my present maturity. There was a guy posting in this thread arguing that this thread was 'masturbatory' when some person just linked a blog post they thought was cool. I didn't even know this thread existed until it got to like 5 pages.

Think about how fucking shitty people are being, how frustrating it might be to get constantly mischaracterized by assholes on a forum who just really want everyone to believe you can't be trusted--so they perform the untrustworthy action of lying about you and saying "he hates sony games" when, literally, in this thread, you can get a link to my EVEN LARGER post on how i LOVE a sony exclusive game a whole lot.

you might be a bit fucking grumpy too



nah, several people in this thread are absolutely sony fanboys and they're willing to lie about me and my motivations to do it. a resetera staffer did it on twitter to david fucking jaffe.

and here's the thing: david jaffe disagrees with some of the things i said and we had a nice little conversation about it. like polite adults. because that's how adults interact.

people going around going "doc just hates sony games" are fuckin liars, i don't give a shit what they think
I don't believe you hate Sony at all, especially after reading your blog post on Days Gone and open world design.

I thought it was thoughtful and interesting.


I guess I just think for this most recent blogpost, your frame of critique at certain points comes off odd and wrongheaded for a lack of a better term. My main critique would be that its a fruitless criticism of a piece of media to use its fanbase or their sense of "validation" as your justification for thinking a game is bad or "not actually significant". It takes the tone that you are somehow an arbiter of taste, rather than just analyzing the actual aspects of the games that make you think they "soulless" etc.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
what games? please show me these games.

I haven't missed it, I just happen to think you're wrong. Crystal Dynamics' tomb raider games were the biggest uncharted-influenced games out there. Much more of last gen was influenced by Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare--it's the defining game of the generation, with the most obvious influence out there. Uncharted 2 was influenced by Call of Duty 4 (the guy who led Uncharted 4's gameplay design was actually a former Infinity Ward guy, haha)



it's not. it's a game with inconsistent characterization, that apes sam peckinpah without really understanding him, that uses the housers' shitty misanthropy to no real affect. It's a game where you have a cliche sequence of a Native American character going "white man doesn't understand nature, that bear would not have attacked if not fired upon" but also in the game, bears are super super aggressive entities that will absolutely murder your fuckin horse.

Rockstar is great at ~performance~ and ~dialog~ but they are terrible at narrative; there's nothing Red Dead Redemption does narratively that is new, interesting, or brilliant. It's all cribbed from elsewhere, and it's never as good. A friend just linked me to a really cool video showing how the early train robbery from RDR2 rips off the Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford and, like... yeah, rockstar's version is shit in comparison.
I'm not talking about control schemes or anything as concrete as that. Merely the goal and demonstration that a game can create compelling dialogue and characters and have big bespoke memorable setpieces. I've been playing games since the NES days. Uncharted and Uncharted 2 were absolutely some of the first "holy shit, we are in the future of videogames" moments I experienced.

You can argue whether you think filmic language is a worthwhile endeavor or not, but nevertheless a lot of games started taking story development into much larger consideration after Uncharted 2 came out.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,690
I don't believe you hate Sony at all, especially after reading your blog post on Days Gone and open world design.

I thought it was thoughtful and interesting.


I guess I just think for this most recent blogpost, your frame of critique at certain points comes off odd and wrongheaded for a lack of a better term. My main critique would be that its a fruitless criticism of a piece of media to use its fanbase or their sense of "validation" as your justification for thinking a game is bad or "not actually significant". It takes the tone that you are somehow an arbiter of taste, rather than just analyzing the actual aspects of the games that make you think they "soulless" etc.
So there's a couple reasons for that.

There's the obvious: I wrote it in a single draft, just trying to work out a problem. What you're seeing is an intimate look into the inside of my head about two hours before I went to sleep after a long week, with me trying to talk my way through some thoughts. When I write the follow-up, I think it will probably come across better.

There's the less obvious: i started writing it because some guy on twitter had been stalking me for a while. He was apparently upset about a joke tweet I made with the phrase "true evil 😔" regarding Sony's decision to shut down driveclub a day early. He had gone through dozens of my tweets to find anything negative I might have said about sony and was yelling about it. I was somewhat pissed at him. I was pissed at the guy who DM'd me a picture of phil spencer's hand up a man's ass because I said "crackdown 3 is really fun, I like it more than sad dad games."

Then there's the real problem:

I don't actually know how to be an expert at something and see people who aren't experts in that thing say people shouldn't want more.

Expertise is... a thing you develop out of passion, right? Let's say you're an expert in astronomy, right? You're Carl Sagan, and you love science so damn much because it shows us how big the universe is. then some guy comes along and says "fuck to you and all that time and passion you put in, carl sagan, the world is flat and also the universe is a hologram or some shit"

It's like, hey, here's someone directly trying to say "you shouldn't be passionate about this." I don't really know how to talk about a problem I see--people settlign for the gas station pizza of video games--without coming across like an elitist. When they say "objectively, this gas station pizza is the most important pizza, fuck all the other pizzas," it's like, damn, as a pizza connossieur, i have a TON of pizzas I love and want to talk about and it sucks to have people try to shut that all down for stuff that isn't great. We should be more ambitious, dammit

I'm not talking about control schemes or anything as concrete as that. Merely the goal and demonstration that a game can create compelling dialogue and characters and have big bespoke memorable setpieces. I've been playing games since the NES days. Uncharted and Uncharted 2 were absolutely some of the first "holy shit, we are in the future of videogames" moments I experienced.

You can argue whether you think filmic language is a worthwhile endeavor or not, but nevertheless a lot of games started taking story development into much larger consideration after Uncharted 2 came out.
maybe it's because people pay me money to write video games for a living, but I absolutely do not believe that games started taking story development into much larger consideration after 2009. I just don't. I don't think that's possible and I think that's an ahistorical perspective, I'm sorry. Cinematic games date back to Mario 64, with the 'modern' form originating with Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. Very few games of last gen can trace their roots to Uncharted 2. Based on average dev time, any games inspired by Uncharted 2 wouldn't have come out until 2012, a year before the generation ended.
 
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