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“I don’t think I like Prestige Games”

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HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,995
Most of these games don’t seem prestige in the way a prestige film is. Most of them seem like safe, risk averse blockbusters.
 

Matt

The Terror that Flaps in the Night
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
2,458
I don't think people are lying out of insecurity, I think that wanting to believe something is important because it has the affectation of importance is fascinating behavior.
This is so incredibly condescending I can’t even process it.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,690
And that’s fair enough, I would just be wary of how liberally you use that line of thinking.

I get the idea of someone “wanting a thing to have significance” but I just don’t think your average or mainstream consumer of media or games even thinks in those terms. I think it’s a fruitless path to go down for your premise because you can’t really intimate what’s in people’s souls as to whether how they are enjoying it is because of pressure or assumed significance.

Maybe I would take the angle of analyzing what aspects don’t appeal to you more in depth and why they don’t appeal to you and specifically how they contrast with the games that attempt similar things but aren’t “soulless”.

For instance Gears 5 and The Last of Us since you seem to have a pretty passionate opposite reaction to both games. Although personally I reject the premise that Gears is more effective in leveraging its gameplay to emphasize the impact of its story, but that’s neither here nor there.

The validation aspect is a dead end especially when lobbed at the general public and not fellow critics and media and really just sounds like plain old gate keeping.
I did the Uncharted 2/3/TLOU thing earlier this year, actually. I archived most of the Uncharted 2 run but life issues prevented me from archiving 3 and TLOU. Did it live and on air. The first few episodes of the Uncharted 2 one are like "here are some good lessons we can learn here, this is really clever" and then it just kind of breaks down as the rest of the game breaks down.

I think the next article will be a lot more refined since I laid out a lot of groundwork in this one. Unfortunately I got a milestone I gotta go finish up, so I won't be able to get to it until later next week, I think.

This is so incredibly condescending I can’t even process it.
This is like basic media studies stuff, though? Like this isn't even remotely controversial. Crafting a sense of importance is like... really basic level media shit?

Most of these games don’t seem prestige in the way a prestige film is. Most of them seem like safe, risk averse blockbusters.
I think most of them are trying to copy successful prestige tv, which makes them safe.

Days Gone is really interesting because it didn't have the money to BE a prestige TV show. It clearly wants to be The Walking Dead meets Sons of Anarchy. Like, if you told me that was the pitch, I'd believe you. And it actually does a lot of things that are very prestige game things, like the 3-tier skill system or the crafting system. But then it has these really intelligent design choices regarding things like hordes, the bike, the way the bike interacts with fast travel, using the loot system to push you into danger, and you end up with some of the smartest game design out this year. I love it.
 

MajesticSoup

Member
Feb 22, 2019
733
I agree with most of the write up. Its part of the reason I love indie games so much over AAA games.
Big western games often feel like the maps are made, and then game designers come in to create a game around it. Like 'here's a sweet mall the 3d artist created. Let's put some gun fights in it and hopefully the enemy AI makes it interesting.'

The tacked on rpg elements are better this gen than they were in previous though. Capcom abused this system the most, and they're japanese.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,423
And that’s fair enough, I would just be wary of how liberally you use that line of thinking.

I get the idea of someone “wanting a thing to have significance” but I just don’t think you average or mainstream consumer of media or games even thinks in those terms. I think it’s a fruitless path to go down for your premise because you can’t really intimate what’s in people’s souls as to whether how they are enjoying it is because of pressure or assumed significance.

Maybe I would take the angle of analyzing what aspects don’t appeal to you more in depth and why they don’t appeal to you and specifically how they contrast with the games that attempt similar things but aren’t “soulless”.

For instance Gears 5 and The Last of Us since you seem to have a pretty passionate opposite reaction to both games. Although personally I reject the premise that Gears is more effective in leveraging its gameplay to emphasize the impact of its story, but that’s neither here nor there.

The validation aspect is a dead end especially when lobbed at the general public and not fellow critics and media and really just sounds like plain old gate keeping.
Yep.
I mean how many people buy UC4 or UC2 for eg thinking it make games art or some other thing .
When you can be sure they bought it cause they enjoy certain aspects of it .
The internet is a place where the minority can get very loud but what they saying sometimes don't really matter or what most people think.

Days Gone is really interesting because it didn't have the money to BE a prestige TV show. It clearly wants to be The Walking Dead meets Sons of Anarchy. Like, if you told me that was the pitch, I'd believe you. And it actually does a lot of things that are very prestige game things, like the 3-tier skill system or the crafting system. But then it has these really intelligent design choices regarding things like hordes, the bike, the way the bike interacts with fast travel, using the loot system to push you into danger, and you end up with some of the smartest game design out this year. I love it.
So i take it you have the budget for DG ?
 

BrutalInsane

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,732
Totally agree with him on ND games, before I opened the article they were at the tip of my mind. When I played TLOU my eyes couldn't of rolled further back in my skull. I don't want to play narrative adventures that have you going from one barely disguised "looks like they read 'The Road'!" checkpoint to another because the 'auteurs' want to tell you a story. I want to play a game.

I totally understand if you like these games, but they're not for me.
 

BrutalInsane

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,732
See, that's fine by me, but also exactly what this piece isn't saying.

You see, apparently we like them because they make us feel important. Also we're uneducated, and should play more games and stuff.
Eh, my favorite game of the last two years is an online game where you go from point A to point B with 3 other people, killing as many rat-men as you can and making sure you live to claim your reward at the end. I’m ok with being dumb :)
 

Matt

The Terror that Flaps in the Night
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
2,458
This is like basic media studies stuff, though? Like this isn't even remotely controversial. Crafting a sense of importance is like... really basic level media shit?
Right. The condescending part is you obviously have an incredibly high opinion of yourself and your own thoughts, while demonstrating a complete lack of empathy and respect for others, clearly illustrated, for example, by your incredibly out of touch thoughts on passion and expertise.

Media studies is about understanding the place and impact of media in our society. It’s not about proving your opinions are superior to others.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,690
So i take it you have the budget for DG ?
Six people worked on the open world and they had to fly down to Santa Monica Studio for motion capture because Sony didn't give them enough money for their own. The subsequent success of Days Gone meant their budget for Days Gone 2 was gonna get a lot bigger.

Right. The condescending part is you obviously have an incredibly high opinion of yourself and your own thoughts, while demonstrating a complete lack of empathy and respect for others, clearly illustrated, for example, by your incredibly out of touch thoughts on passion and expertise.

Media studies is about understanding the place and impact of media in our society. It’s not about trying to prove why your opinions correct.
I think you're starting with some preconceptions and trying to back them up, the content of what I said doesn't support your thesis.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,423
Six people worked on the open world and they had to fly down to Santa Monica Studio for motion capture because Sony didn't give them enough money for their own. The subsequent success of Days Gone meant their budget for Days Gone 2 was gonna get a lot bigger.
That don't mean the budget was small.
Sony not wanting to build a whole new motion capture studio for them just show it could have been smaller than some of there other games.
Not having the biggest budget don't mean they did not have enough to do what you call a prestige TV show .
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,854
Florida.
Right. The condescending part is you obviously have an incredibly high opinion of yourself and your own thoughts, while demonstrating a complete lack of empathy and respect for others, clearly illustrated, for example, by your incredibly out of touch thoughts on passion and expertise.

Media studies is about understanding the place and impact of media in our society. It’s not about proving your opinions are superior to others.
Don't you think you're overreacting a little?
I think for some people the safe and commercial approach of AAA game development is a turnoff, and I don't think it's unfair to say that with time or experience or education you are more likely to grow jaded in that regard.
 
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SofNascimento

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,020
Hm, I do think the author has some points, particularly in games wanting to be recognized as something more than just entertainment and how many games simply copy mechanics without actually caring if they will make the game better or not, but overall I believe he might go to far with the whole "you only think this game is good because you are ignorant of other media". I don't think I was tricked into liking some of this "prestige games", I simply did, and played them more than once.

Also, talking about Max Payne 3 and the influence of movies and not mentioning Elite Squad 1 and 2 is crazy!
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,237
Don't you think you're overreacting a little?
I think for some people the safe and commercial approach of AAA game development is a turnoff, and I don't think it's unfair to say that with time and experience and education you are more likely to grow jaded in that regard.
I'm not crazy about tmese games either. (totally common and uncontroversial opinion, btw.) The main thrust of the article though, is that people who do like these games must be largely doing so out of insecure want for validation of the medium.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,854
Florida.
particularly in games wanting to be recognized as something more than just entertainment
It's bizarre that "elevating the medium" usually translates to elevating production value with better acting and writing and visual presentation, which does nothing to "elevate" the medium beyond entertainment. The games that wind up in the MoMA couldn't be more different from the swathe of games being discussed here.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,423
It's bizarre that "elevating the medium" usually translates to elevating production value with better acting and writing and visual presentation, which does nothing to "elevate" the medium beyond entertainment. The games that wind up in the MoMA couldn't be more different from the swathe of games being discussed here.
The whole caring about elevating the medium is done by such a small sub set of people .
Don't think most people care .
They just enjoy the games for what ever reason ., the "elevating the medium" will come with time .
 

Zelas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
The notion of disliking and dismissing an entire category of any entertainment medium is ridiculous to me. Even in genres I generally dislike in games, film, books, etc., there are always a handful I do end up liking. The use of "Prestige Game" just makes the whole thing come off as "mainstream games...ew" snobbery, too.
Yeah people who do this automatically invalidate their own opinion in my eyes.

And the article is worthless on its own merits. Imagine calling popcorn blockbusters "prestige games." Prestige is exactly what I think when folks bring up Disney Infinity, Enter the Matrix, or the most dude bro series of all CoD. The most popular games coming from japan aren't soulless husks made only to make money? Has he not seen the mobile industry over there. Or heard of pokemon? Even the idea that western games alone are being designed to garner prestige, and thus more money, is ridiculous. Konami and Square has been doing that longer than most of the current western industry. Yu Suzuki and Kojima were at the forefront and are doing that as we speak.

I’d say that prestige games are expensive AAA-type games that imitate better art without really understanding or improving upon them in any way, often using fairly boilerplate mechanics to accomplish this.
That actually sounds like most of the entire indie industry when you realize expense has nothing to do with originality.

The writer has failed completely to justify their disdain for AAA outside of some arbitrary bias.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,995
It's bizarre that "elevating the medium" usually translates to elevating production value with better acting and writing and visual presentation, which does nothing to "elevate" the medium beyond entertainment. The games that wind up in the MoMA couldn't be more different from the swathe of games being discussed here.
Most of those MoMA games were primarily designed as entertainment. It’s not like they are showing off Pathologic.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,854
Florida.
The whole caring about elevating the medium is done by such a small sub set of people .
Don't think most people care .
They just enjoy the games for what ever reason ., the "elevating the medium" will come with time .
Well I think it just goes to show that the art world and the general public have very different ideals.
Most of those MoMA games were primarily designed as entertainment. It’s not like they are showing off Pathologic.
Most of those are games that you could consider historically important to the medium, and games like Dwarf Fortress are certainly entertaining, just not created with any commercial intent whatsoever.
I'm not saying their selection is perfect, but I don't think you're going to see a lot of AAA games in that collection going forward.
 
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grandwizorb

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,702
My buddy Cory and I embraced when we reached Gear's credits. Just like the jaw dropping conclusion of the final scene, this hug felt completely earned. The embrace of our hug was also surprisingly tight, unlike the gunplay mechanics in Uncharted 2.

Gears 5 rocked me to my core. I was pimp slapped by the quality, shellshocked by the audacity of a game daring to defiantly be a game-y game, and I was honored to be strong enough to withstand its relentless onslaught of good game design.

Cory continued to cry. He was utterly broken by the goodness and trueness of Gear's 5 campaign. He was hysterical. He left the room and ate a bunch of frozen pizzas, raw. He just refused to heat them in the oven. I was pissed.

-Anyway, Gears was a religious experience. Was akin to looking into God's eyes. His benevolent form looking back at yours, shaking his head in agreement as if to say "The Last of Us is just the Road. We have PS4s in Heaven. Played it and it was a 7 at best. One and done type game, wouldn't play it again tbh. Thinking bout selling my PS4, I'm overwhelmed by my Switch anyway..."
Lmao! Well done
 

kiaaa

Member
Oct 27, 2017
269
As for the 'appeal to authority,' it's more like, hey, I have people saying "this is very poorly written, you're shit, why isn't this like an article in esquire" and it's like, hey, I actually DO that. This is most emphatically NOT THAT. This is like telling a chef who gets home and makes a box of mac and cheese that all he cooks is garbage. Like, dude, I work in a 4-star michelin joint all day, no way am I gonna treat my personal space like that too. I want people to recognize the difference between formats and the intent behind the writing instead of making really shitty comparisons.
Do you even realize how narcissistic you continue to sound? Honestly, if you spent less time telling us how important you are and more time getting your message across clearly, you might be able to start a conversation. Instead, 90% of this thread is about the tone of the blog rather than the content.
 

BradGrenz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
980
I haven't missed it, I just happen to think you're wrong. Crystal Dynamics' tomb raider games were the biggest uncharted-influenced games out there. Much more of last gen was influenced by Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare--it's the defining game of the generation, with the most obvious influence out there. Uncharted 2 was influenced by Call of Duty 4 (the guy who led Uncharted 4's gameplay design was actually a former Infinity Ward guy, haha)
Gears 5 lifts moments from Uncharted 2, dude.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,456
“Bioshock is stupid”


Yeah, sounds like snobbery.
I mean, it's not an intelligent ground-breaking story or writing. It's Ayn Rand in an alternate Steampunk-and-SF-influenced world.


References to Ayn Rand
Characters

  • Andrew Ryan's philosophy, his name, and some of his history were based on Ayn Rand.[1] His name is a partial anagram of hers. Both Andrew Ryan and Ayn Rand were originally from the Soviet Union, but moved to America to avoid the increasing tensions of Communism. Both created their own city to explore their ideas: Rand created Atlantis in Galt's Gulch in her novel Atlas Shrugged,[2] while Ryan created Rapture.
  • In a radio message from Andrew Ryan in Arcadia, we learn that he set fire to his own land rather than let it fall into public hands. This seems to be a direct reference once again to Atlas Shrugged, in which the character Ellis Wyatt sets fire to his valuable oil fields for similar reasons.
  • During Rapture Central Control, Andrew Ryan starts a self-destruct sequence for Rapture, because he does not want to see Atlas take control of his city. In The Fountainhead[3] Howard Roark dynamites the Cortlandt housing project when his designs had been altered.
  • The name Atlas was inspired by the title of one of Ayn Rand's most famous books, Atlas Shrugged.
  • A minor character in the game, Anya Andersdotter, shares the same characteristic Bob cut as Ayn Rand. Her name is also an anagram of the author's with letters added: AYN RAND converts to ANYa ANDeRsdotter.
  • Ayn Rand's original last name was Rosenbaum, which is paralleled by the character Tenenbaum.
  • The name Frank Fontaine was inspired by the title The Fountainhead.
  • Posters can be found that say "Who is Atlas" are references to the regularly repeated expression "Who is John Galt" in Atlas Shrugged.
Other

  • Ayn Rand's philosophy, called Objectivism,[4] greatly influences the story of BioShock. Objectivism is the idea that one should follow their own self-interest and profit from their own abilities and ambitions while being virtually uninhibited by others. This is the idea on which Andrew Ryan's city is based.
  • Each bottle of Arcadia Merlot is embossed with the name "Fountainhead Cabernet Sauvignon," which may be another direct reference to Rand's novel The Fountainhead.
  • On Jack's fake passport, his last name is shown to be Wynand. In Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, Gail Wynand is one of the main characters.
  • Posters for the Pharaoh's Fortune Casino and Cinema Réal state that they are located in the Cameron Suites, a possible reference to architect Henry Cameron, a character in The Fountainhead.
  • The name "H. Roark" appears on the advertisement for the Eve's Garden strip club and Roark Architect & Construction. Howard Roark was the main character in The Fountainhead.
  • D. Francon Antiques is a reference to Dominique Francon, another character in The Fountainhead.
  • A patient in one of the pictures scattered throughout the Medical Pavilion bears a striking resemblance to Ayn Rand.
  • In Atlas Shrugged, during a party, the protagonist Dagny is told by a woman about the tale of John Galt. She says that while sailing in the sea during a storm, he saw the shining towers of Atlantis. This could be what inspired the idea of Rapture, an underwater utopia very much like Atlantis in many ways. Following this, there are many mentionings such as Poseidon Plaza or Neptune's Bounty, who both had influence on the city in myths.
  • The "Welcome to Rapture" posters[specify poster] found throughout the city use a similar font, color scheme, and background to the cover art of the Penguin paperback edition of Atlas Shrugged.
And I don't think Bioshock says anything deep or profound about objectivism. They're good games, but, yeah, on some level they are kinda stupid.
 

Lant_War

The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
9,049
I mean, it's not an intelligent ground-breaking story or writing. It's Ayn Rand in an alternate Steampunk-and-SF-influenced world.



And I don't think Bioshock says anything deep or profound about objectivism. They're good games, but, yeah, on some level they are kinda stupid.
Congrats man, you beat the article in snobbery.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,650
I’m curious to know what the writer thinks of MGS games. For Kojima being always called “pretentious” and “up his own ass” even here on ERA, I’m surprised he didn’t get a mention in here
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,456
Congrats man, you beat the article in snobbery.
Cool. You kids have fun thinking Bioshock isn't stupid. I'll go back to reading.

Edit:

Also, what does your comment even mean? Like, I called out a game for being stupid and basically lifting it's ideas from one of the worst (and yet most influential) pieces of 20th century literature without it actually saying anything about the underlying philosophy of said literature or its writer. If your response to that is "You're such a snob", then, I mean, okay, sure. I'll take that insult and laugh, because if you think what I wrote is snobbish, you shouldn't step anywhere near the NYT Book Review, The New Yorker, or in-depth art criticism.
 

benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,314
Bioshock is definitely stupid. Also, someone isn't being a "snob" just because they hold an opinion that you don't. You have to show your work a little more than that.
 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,481
As for the 'appeal to authority,' it's more like, hey, I have people saying "this is very poorly written, you're shit, why isn't this like an article in esquire"
I never said you were shit. I posted that Esquire article because it gets to the root of your criticism in a way that doesn’t belittle the people who consume that media, which I would have liked to see in your writing about the subject. This is your Medium blog, it isn’t your personal journal, so there is always a chance that people will read this. I am sorry some of us didn’t find the writing and arguments to be up to snuff.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,995
I mean, it's not an intelligent ground-breaking story or writing. It's Ayn Rand in an alternate Steampunk-and-SF-influenced world.



And I don't think Bioshock says anything deep or profound about objectivism. They're good games, but, yeah, on some level they are kinda stupid.
Why are you pointing out references to Ayn Rand? Everyone knows Rapture and Andrew Ryan is suppose to be objectivist.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,456
Why are you pointing out references to Ayn Rand? Everyone knows Rapture and Andrew Ryan is suppose to be objectivist.
Because 1) Ayn Rand wrote Atlas Shrugged, 2) Bioshock says nothing about the philosophy or the author, so consequently 3) it's perfect as an illustration of Doc's points that

It is, in my opinion, a kind of cargo-cult storytelling, a means of placing the things that awe us in an order that those of us without media literacy will fail to recognize. Stuff that gets an emotional response not because it’s earned but because it copied moments that were earned in the hopes it will do well.
And

So many of these games have stories that are clearly lifted from elsewhere, but lack the brilliant performances, character work, or drama that make these stories so compelling.
and finally 4) my post acted as a response to someone who thinks calling Bioshock stupid is "snobbery". It is stupid, because of my point 2 above. It's a game that says nothing, and everyone knows it says nothing, yet some people pretend it says Deep Things. And I say all that, and can still acknowledge that I loved the game and have no desire to return to it ever again.

There's movies and books (and even comics) that take a formula or ideas, or specific piece of work and subvert the readers expectations, or examine contemporary life or politics through those works. But Bioshock is just "Here's some philosophy from this author in this SF setting". It makes a great visually striking game. But it says nothing.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,995
I think the fact the Rapture ends up a dystopia hellscape under the sea is saying something about objectivism, regardless of how effective you think that critique is.
 

Aselith

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,283
Prestige gaming as a concept here is weird because usually a prestige picture where this term, I'd guess, originated are gorgeously made and crafted money losers that are made for the art. They're intended to be the highest form of the art.

It's a bit weird to apply this concept to games clearly made to be highly marketable, successful and bombastic. Not sure what that says about the medium tbh...if it's good or bad that the most successful games are also considered the best that the medium has to offer.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,456
I think the fact the Rapture ends up a dystopia hellscape under the sea is saying something about objectivism, regardless of how effective you think that critique is.
ehhhh... I don't think so personally. It's an environment that serves the gameplay, rather than a statement about objectivism. Like, it's the only way you could have the gameplay of Bioshock (splicers, Adam, hacking puzzles). But I can see your point, yeah.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,423
Prestige gaming as a concept here is weird because usually a prestige picture where this term, I'd guess, originated are gorgeously made and crafted money losers that are made for the art. They're intended to be the highest form of the art.

It's a bit weird to apply this concept to games clearly made to be highly marketable, successful and bombastic. Not sure what that says about the medium tbh...if it's good or bad that the most successful games are also considered the best that the medium has to offer.
Does not really say anything about games.
Just some people like put certain labels on thing they don't like and come up with what ever reason to act like it fact .
 

benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,314
ehhhh... I don't think so personally. It's an environment that serves the gameplay, rather than a statement about objectivism. Like, it's the only way you could have the gameplay of Bioshock (splicers, Adam, hacking puzzles). But I can see your point, yeah.
All culture is cultural critique (even if only in service of hegemony). Bioshock very explicitly so. That doesn't make it good or smart cultural critique, but it is absolutely a critique—of objectivism, of the social role of individual achievement, of encoding and realizing one's desires in the avenues that one's environment allows for. The fact that its setting enables its gameplay has absolutely nothing to do with whether it's cultural critique or not.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,456
All culture is cultural critique (even if only in service of hegemony). Bioshock very explicitly so. That doesn't make it good or smart cultural critique, but it is absolutely a critique—of objectivism, of the social role of individual achievement, of encoding and realizing one's desires in the avenues that one's environment allows for. The fact that its setting enables its gameplay has absolutely nothing to do with whether it's cultural critique or not.
I mean, I disagree with your central argument. I don't believe "all culture is cultural critique", even allowing for the rider of "even if only in service of hegemony". I do think that specifically avoiding cultural critique (like, what was it... The Division 2? Or one of the Far Cry games?) with a statement saying "This is just meant to be entertainment" is cultural critique in service of hegemony. But I also do believe it is entirely possible to create culture or entertainment (though not Art) which isn't cultural critique. Sometimes a shooty-bangy game is just a shooty-bangy game, y'know? :p

Edit: And, to my eye, Bioshock doesn't really provide a critique there, good, bad, smart or stupid. It basically just exists, I feel.

But, yeah, you've given me something to ponder and turn over in my mind, there, and maybe reconsider my point of view on, so thank you. :)
 
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Televator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,395
I mean, it's not an intelligent ground-breaking story or writing. It's Ayn Rand in an alternate Steampunk-and-SF-influenced world.



And I don't think Bioshock says anything deep or profound about objectivism. They're good games, but, yeah, on some level they are kinda stupid.
Bioshock is a far more honest work than anything Ayn Rand ever shat out.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
User Banned (1 Day): Antagonizing another member
ehhhh... I don't think so personally. It's an environment that serves the gameplay, rather than a statement about objectivism. Like, it's the only way you could have the gameplay of Bioshock (splicers, Adam, hacking puzzles). But I can see your point, yeah.
lol what the fuck. That’s literally THE WHOLE POINT of the story’s themes! It’s not just some tacked on shit. The game posits that if we lived in a society that was built on objectivist morality, that it would likely collapse because of the absolute selfishness built into its philosophy that would cause mass greed and corruption. Obviously it’s hyperbolic for the sake of being a satirical horror game, but I wouldn’t call it “stupid”.

Are you some libertarian who is butthurt by people seeing Ayn Rands philosophy for the ugly dreck that it is?
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,456
lol what the fuck. That’s literally THE WHOLE POINT of the story’s themes! It’s not just some tacked on shit. The game posits that if we lived in a society that was built on objectivist morality, that it would likely collapse because of the absolute selfishness built into its philosophy that would cause mass greed and corruption. Obviously it’s hyperbolic for the sake of being a satirical horror game, but I wouldn’t call it “stupid”.

Are you some libertarian who is butthurt by people seeing Ayn Rands philosophy for the ugly dreck that it is?
Do we really need the name-calling. Bloody hell. :/

I don't regard that as a critique of the philosophy. I regard it as as plot device for the purposes of the game, but that plot device is not in and of itself a critique.

And I think with the insults, I'm out of this conversation, and ignoring you.
 

tutomos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
672
And I don't think Bioshock says anything deep or profound about objectivism. They're good games, but, yeah, on some level they are kinda stupid.
Link to a good paper analyzing BIoshock that also touches on Objectivism.

Critical analysis
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,520
Do we really need the name-calling. Bloody hell. :/

I don't regard that as a critique of the philosophy. I regard it as as plot device for the purposes of the game, but that plot device is not in and of itself a critique.

And I think with the insults, I'm out of this conversation, and ignoring you.
Where is the name calling? I just asked if you were a libertarian and if you were offended.
 
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