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saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
'I hate cinematic games but love Gears 5 which is a cinematic game. Maybe because it's not from Sony. I think Shadow of the Colossus is probably a masterpiece, dunno i haven't played it. Crackdown 3 is the best thing ever despite having game design that was stale 10 years ago. I also loathe Christopher Nolan because i went to film school. Or something.'

I see why this had to be on a blog, it's like 10 Era posts recycled from one another. An ouroboros of snobbery and platform warring.

DocSeuss at it again.
 

Deleted member 984

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,203
You really didn't feel the passion for the Norse mythology - and the way they had incorporated Kratos and his moving from the Greek mythology to the Norse one - in the game? And you also took away that they wanted to make a Marvel Thor instead of telling a story about a father and his son, learning from one another? Not to mention all that story about becoming a better person?

Dunno, that's just a weird take, can't see it at all.
From its structure, it's writing, it's use of set pieces, etc. It was flashy and pretty and covered all the well known basics but the original borrows from Greek tragedy and their conventions at a structural level. The new doesn't have that kind of attention and rather than an epic poem has more in common with The Road. There is loads to go on from sagas and old Norse poems and it lacked those influences which is what really made the first game stand out.
 
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John Bender

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,058
God of War and Uncharted are bad, but fucking Crackdown 3 is great. I don't even know what to say to that.
That's all you need to know about him. It's almost a parody.
Seems like a typical Doc post. Even without knowledge of his post history if you haven't been a regular on the last forum, I think most people would be able to tell what "preferences" he holds, isn't too subtle with it, slaps people across the face with it with his writing.

TLDR paragraph for those not wanting to read it all:

It isn't enough that I play games that I like and ignore games I don't like, I am a grand authority on all matter of game design, and folks who like games I don't like are wrong. Not only are they wrong, I presume to know what exactly goes through their minds and why they like said games, and they are dumb for liking them for those said reasons, because they totally cannot like them for any other reason whatsoever since I deemed it so.

Bonus: I also decided on playing a 10 year old game for the first time, by streaming it, and feel I can appropriately critique all aspects of it this way including gameplay feel.
Good summary. Comedy gold.
 

TheRulingRing

Banned
Apr 6, 2018
5,713
Damn this guy is projecting haaaaaaaaaard.

Almost no-one enjoys "prestige" games because they think it makes them smarter or more cultured than anyone else, or because they want games to be seen as high art or some shit. They simply enjoy them because they're engaging pieces of entertainment.

The worst thing is the author succumbs to the very same "I'm smarter than you" impulse himself by condemning anyone who enjoys these games that he doesn't as dumb nerds who lack self-awareness and think they're better than others.

Oh the irony.

Oh the irony in that statement when you look at the rest of the article.. truly embarrassing for the author.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,766
Despite being a pretty loaded write-up, and coming across as very pro-MS anti-Sony on the surface, I do agree with some of its points.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,300
Not a fan of Naughty dog and dont want everyone else to follow in their footsteps, but there is still a place for them because people clearly love their games.

This article is clearly disguised console wars, not surprising given who the author is though
 

kiaaa

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,848
Crackdown is a game with a really smart 'you get xp based on how you killed an enemy, so try to do as many different types of damage to an enemy as it dies' gameplay that is thrilling. The whole play experience is special.

Followed 2 paragraphs later by:

Then, somewhere along the way, people figured out that you could use psychological compulsion mechanics to get people to stick with games, so they started bringing in level-up mechanics from RPGs into things like action-adventure games.

Article is a mess. Maybe should've have posted it while, admittedly, forcing himself to stay awake.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,758
here
it was because of DocSeuss i found neogaf

i used to argue with them in the comments section of kotaku

they mentioned gaf and so i registered so i could argue with them more, but by the time my account was approved i forgot what i was arguing about
 

Hentailover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,417
Moscow
Barring some really self important parts about how smart he is and how educated he is, I actually found myself relating to the article. I also find unchrated series, the last of us and new god of war a snore fest, built entirely on the illusion of being super important, due to expensive presentation.
 

sugarmonkey

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
515
7,000 words when "I don't like thing" could have sufficed

Holy shit. Some of you guys getting all bristly. I mean this is a fan boy forum, and I get it - but wow. I thought the article was intelligently written, thoughtful, and engaging from start to finish. I've never heard of the author and I agree with him in almost every point. I find myself enjoying janky, buggy games where the developers pour their heart and soul into their work, but polish not so much. A lot of triple AAA games have bored me lately (GoW, Last of Us,etc) and I didn't know why.

After reading this article I understand why I got bored so quickly. I've been playing games for a long time, and all this derivation leaves me with the feeling like I've done this many times before. I'm currently playing Minecraft again because I can get in there, create and fuck around, and be entertained by the unexpected. Sometimes I do like a sweeping, story driven "prestige" game, but I really really have to be in the mood for it or I just won't finish it. I'm tired of being lead around by the nose through set pieces that show off new techy pixel lights that I'm supposed to love due to marketing.
 

Elodes

Looks to the Moon
Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,232
The Netherlands
Good article, and props to the author for writing it. I may not agree with everything he says, but he clearly knows enough to say what he's saying, and he's coming right out and says it. Wish we had more writers like this in the industry.

I think prestige games aren't necessarily bad; it's just that oftentimes they're so mediocre. Most prestige games' gameplay is bettered in other titles in their genres; their plots certainly are bettered in actual literature (and gosh, don't get me started on this -- almost all games' stories are incredibly lacking compared to most prestigious books). God of War was indeed one of the most thoroughly mediocre games I've ever played, so I'm glad someone's coming out and identifying a pattern here.
 

Crazy Steve

Member
Oct 27, 2017
451
Ridiculous blog post. Only to rile up people for the old console wars. What's next? A thread about Tim Dog's tweets?
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,422
I am truly curious by why big websites like USgamer and Medium feel like they need publish these thousands of words Sony hate letters from a fanboy? Do the content supervisors at these websites truly think these are great articles and quality content, or are they just looking to incite console wars and generate more clicks? Because anyone who has seen his USgamer article or read one of his posts knows he doesn't need to read the article to know exactly what this dude is saying.

He's not writing an article, he is writing his usual fanboy garbage and frames it around a discussion to get it published as an article on a big website.
If he truly works or has worked in the games industry like he claims, then someone fucked up during the hiring process. You might as well hire Crapgamer.
I can't explain USgamer but his Medium posts are just self-published blogs no different than a forum post here.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
it was because of DocSeuss i found neogaf

i used to argue with them in the comments section of kotaku

they mentioned gaf and so i registered so i could argue with them more, but by the time my account was approved i forgot what i was arguing about

There's a villain's origin story i can get behind
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,425
Attributing artistic benevolence to all Japanese developers/publishers while claiming the entire gaming community of the US, UK, EU, and Canada are capitalist pigs is pretty fucking racist.
 

Polyh3dron

Prophet of Regret
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,860
Control, a narrative-focused game with a skill tree, skill points, a colored loot system, fast travel, Witcher 3-style quest log, and crafting, isn't a prestige game that just goes through the motions but God of War is?
prestige = sony

control is definitely not a sony game
 

FoolsMilky

Member
Sep 16, 2018
485
it was because of DocSeuss i found neogaf

i used to argue with them in the comments section of kotaku

they mentioned gaf and so i registered so i could argue with them more, but by the time my account was approved i forgot what i was arguing about
This isn't what I expected from your origin story at all. I was hoping you were a dog who bit a radioactive scientist.

OT: While I am honestly having trouble reading this article (Which isn't really a criticism, I'm just saying I haven't finished it), I have respect for someone who is not only willing to speak their opinion, but explain it. If he explains it properly, well, I guess we'll see.

I think there is an important discussion to be had about what "video games" have gained from movies, but also what they unfortunately cling to. It's a very difficult conversation to have though, and I don't think writing off highly-acclaimed games as "actually they're garbage" is the start of that conversation.
There's a villain's origin story i can get behind
Damn, ninja'd
 
Nov 21, 2018
335
wow people really up in arms mad dismissing what he says as fanboy stuff(you guys making yourself sound like fanboys)
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
So many people fail to notice because they lack that essential literacy. They're getting the watered down version and thinking it's the real deal. It's like thinking McDonald's is a real burger.

Things shouldn't happen because we've seen them happen in other stories, they should happen because the characters do what those characters would do under the circumstances they find themselves in. I should only be able to predict a story because I understand the characters deeply; if I can predict it because I've seen a dozen movies with the same premise, and this always happens in movies, you have a major fucking problem.

I think that's a fair criticism of "prestige" games.

On the other hand, sometimes people just want to immerse themselves in an Indiana Jones knock-off, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Not every narrative-heavy game can be Nier or Nier Automata.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,122
Peru
Barring some really self important parts about how smart he is and how educated he is, I actually found myself relating to the article. I also find unchrated series, the last of us and new god of war a snore fest, built entirely on the illusion of being super important, due to expensive presentation.
Nah, they play well, really well actually. UC2, TLoU and the new GoW lend themselves very well for multiple playthroughs and that "expensive presentation" simply complements great gameplay mechanics. People wanted a mode in TLoU that let you replay all the encounters for a reason, and God of War allowed for some intensive combat in the trials of Muspelheim (I think that was the realm). There's no "illusion" involved.
 

Hentailover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,417
Moscow
Nah, they play well, really well actually. UC2, TLoU and the new GoW lend themselves very well for multiple playthroughs and that "expensive presentation" simply complements great gameplay mechanics. People wanted a mode in TLoU that let you replay all the encounters for a reason, and God of War allowed for some intensive combat in the trials of Muspelheim (I think that was the realm). There's no "illusion" involved.

I will take your word for that. I didn't finish a single uncharted game, nearly falling asleep during them at some points, and I couldn't finish TLoU even once. Haven't even played GoW after I saw how often you have to walk around while talking with someone, or the fact that it had a damn loot system for some reason.
 

blacklotus

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,028
The notion of disliking and dismissing an entire category of any entertainment medium is ridiculous to me. Even in genres I generally dislike in games, film, books, etc., there are always a handful I do end up liking. The use of "Prestige Game" just makes the whole thing come off as "mainstream games...ew" snobbery, too.

This is so true.

The "I don't like indies" is the one that aggravates me the most.
 
Oct 31, 2017
9,623
There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking elements from other mediums as sources of inspiration, editing those elements, either slightly or majorly, and re-presenting them in a different medium.

Human beings have done this throughout history and it is actually how most art is made. Almost nothing comes out of thin air voids, and to be hyper-critical of games lifting/cribbing material from other mediums, in particular film/motion pictures which is the modern visual art medium that most directly precedes the medium of video games in terms of art as technological expression, is ridiculous.

There is a reason that the most acclaimed games are compared to film, because film was the last medium that went through this process of outside-to-inside cultural acceptance and dissemination.
 

Poimandres

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,867
In some ways, I just feel I have a straight up different way of experiencing these games.

Doc raises some fine points about "games as art" and how this all came to be, but I find myself falling out of step with many of the specific games mentioned.

Halo is an otherworldly escape? I love the series, but in terms of atmosphere and story it was never particularly engaging to me outside of the first game. The draw for me is purely in the gameplay.

Gears 2 as some sort of masterpiece? I thought it was dull as dishwater. An observation was made about the Last of Us that you could see where enemy encounters would take place. Gears is literally built around enemy encounters and walls to crouch behind! But somehow with Gears that genius encounter design instead of transparent game mechanics? Even the giant worm sequence mentioned in Gears 2 is literally nothing more than a moving cover mechanic.

Big fan of COD games? I quite enjoy the gunplay, but the campaigns in those games have always been downright insulting to me (well the last I played was MW2). Endlessly respawning enemies with no semblance of AI funneling you betweem set pieces. At least the Naughty Dog games have a decent shake of giving the enemies AI and don't resort to respawning nonsense.

I'm not even a huge fan of the Naughty Dog games, but it seems bizarre to me that some of Doc's favourites are given a free pass when they are guilty of the same things as the games he is criticising. And the strenghts of those games are swept aside. TLOU for example clearly had plenty of thought put into individual enemy encounters. It's praise worthy in Gears 2, but not worth noting in TLOU? I don't know...
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,122
Peru
I will take your word for that. I didn't finish a single uncharted game, nearly falling asleep during them at some points, and I couldn't finish TLoU even once. Haven't even played GoW after I saw how often you have to walk around while talking with someone, or the fact that it had a damn loot system for some reason.
Surprisingly the loot system is easily understandable and doesn't detract from the game. I'm saying this as someone who isn't fond of loot systems and actually dislike RPG-lite mechanics in action-heavy games. Hated that shit in Tomb Raider, but it wasn't bad in GoW. TLoU you can play in normal difficulty and find enough resources not to keep it all stealthy if you'd like.
Some games I like to revisit for the gameplay, TLoU for example and currently I'm enjoying playing through the first Bayonetta again, this time on Switch, while doing stuff I wasn't aware of at the time.
 

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
2,959
'I hate cinematic games but love Gears 5 which is a cinematic game. Maybe because it's not from Sony. I think Shadow of the Colossus is probably a masterpiece, dunno i haven't played it. Crackdown 3 is the best thing ever despite having game design that was stale 10 years ago. I also loathe Christopher Nolan because i went to film school. Or something.'

I see why this had to be on a blog, it's like 10 Era posts recycled from one another. An ouroboros of snobbery and platform warring.

DocSeuss at it again.

gotta admit, there was a whole lot of 'see, your objective is actually subjective, unlike my objective, which is objective' going on...
 

Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,109
The article skews too negative for my liking, but I'd be lying if I didn't admit to feeling like I have a personal 8/10 ceiling (the horror!) on a lot of the examples of a prestige game on there.

You know if nothing else it was worth the time to remind me of that bioshock tweet from cliff, cripes
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
it was because of DocSeuss i found neogaf

i used to argue with them in the comments section of kotaku

they mentioned gaf and so i registered so i could argue with them more, but by the time my account was approved i forgot what i was arguing about
I knew him from Kotaku as well. I had a very edgy name during my teenage years in the site and when I saw him in gaf I was like "eeeeey dude it's me"
 

dark_prinny

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,374
giphy.gif
 

Fancy Clown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,407
I lol'd at the "deleted paragraphs that were *too* self-aggrandizing" note. It's difficult to imagine what was so bad that even the author recognized his own narcissism. He takes like 30,000 words to essentially give a bunch of un-nuanced opinions with little in the way of examples or analysis. He spends a paragraph saying The Last of Us is bad because he was able to predict everything that happens (congrats?) and then totally skates by his critiques of what makes it a bad game by just listing off that the AI is bad, the encounters are bad, and the controls are bad (what??). Why do you think any of this?? He has a good handling of conversational writing style but personally comes across very poorly in this piece and could spend a lot more time analyzing the works than dumping his opinions and casually dropping tangential bits of self-fellatio like that he was able to pull of difficult one take shots in film school.

There could be an interesting piece about AAA hype cycle and the infatuation with cinematic game experiences but this ain't it at all.
 

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
Honestly I agree with a lot of that. Well, except I really like God of War ad its combat.

The Last of Us is a pretty unremarkable game outside of graphics/production values.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
An interesting idea for an article absolutely ruined by poor criticism and writing.

The idea that you shouldn't be able to predict a story or else it's bad is an awful mindset to have, and such a surface level criticism that it brings doubt to everything else the author critiques.

I'm not a huge fan of ND (I've liked 2 of their games from the last two gens) but it seems pretty clear that the author doesn't look beyond the most basic aspects of gameplay unless engaged, which is awful when you're trying to compare good and bad.

LoU for example may not be particularly deep or complex in mechanics, but it certainly didn't play like an average action game (something that should be readily apparent even on normal difficulties and above). Everything from movement to aiming to recoup and fire rate were designed to determine the pace of combat, and limit player power and options.

Compare it to Uncharted 2, where Nathan is significantly more agile, precise, has more ammo etc.

The author clearly doesn't have the ability to really dissect games that they didn't enjoy, and as a result the entire piece is about as shallow as the "prestige" games they discuss are.

This again is a real shame, because I do feel there's a trend of AAA games tending to be wide as an ocean but shallow as a puddle mechanically speaking, but if you let bias influence your analysis to this degree then why even bother?
 

score01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,700
Isn't this by the same guy who wrote an article about how bloodborne is a bad game? At least he's consistent in his poor taste. Give him props for that.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
'I hate cinematic games but love Gears 5 which is a cinematic game. Maybe because it's not from Sony. I think Shadow of the Colossus is probably a masterpiece, dunno i haven't played it. Crackdown 3 is the best thing ever despite having game design that was stale 10 years ago. I also loathe Christopher Nolan because i went to film school. Or something.'

I see why this had to be on a blog, it's like 10 Era posts recycled from one another. An ouroboros of snobbery and platform warring.

DocSeuss at it again.
.
 
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