“Socialism” vs. “capitalism” is a false dichotomy (Vox)

Kirblar

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Oct 25, 2017
30,745
Subheader: We need go-go capitalism to afford a generous welfare state — and people won’t support go-go capitalism without a safety net. “Socialists” and Republicans forget different parts of this lesson.

This is a great piece by Will Wilkinson on the need for social safety nets. It was written over the past week as a response to this measured and relatively even-handed Kevin Williamson article in national review, and the article Wilkinson wrote managed to accidentally predict Williamson's next, much more awful article.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/20...in-williamson-column-republican-ocasio-cortez

Suddenly there’s a lively debate on both the left and the right about the specter of socialism in America. According to Gallup, Democrats now view socialism in a more positive light than capitalism. And Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a card-carrying member of the Democratic Socialists of America, became an instant political star after she clinched the Democratic Party’s nomination for the New York 14th District’s House seat.

Some conservatives, brought up declaiming, “Better dead than red,” are understandably in a bit of a tizzy. In a fiery peroration on The View, Meghan McCain warned of the peril of going the way of socialist Venezuela, where, she says, people are “starving to death.”

In National Review, Kevin Williamson offers a rather more measured and illuminating conservative perspective. He argues that the vogue of “socialism,” embodied in the rise of Ocasio-Cortez, and the intemperate right-wing reaction to it, is mostly semantic — a matter of “words about words,” as he puts it, freighted with polarized sentiment and little definite meaning.

“All this talk about socialism isn’t about socialism,” Williamson writes. “It’s about the status quo.” The idea that “capitalism” has failed us and that “socialism” is the answer relies on a cartoonish oversimplification of reality. Current economic arrangements in the US, and throughout the developed world, involve a complex mix of “capitalist” market institutions and “socialist” regulatory and redistributive institutions.

If our mixed system is failing many of us, it’s highly unlikely that the blame can be assigned exclusively to either its “capitalist” or “socialist” components, or to the fact that the system is mixed rather than purely one thing or the other. The real debate, as Williamson goes on to suggest, concerns the structure, balance, and integration of the elements that make up our political economy.

This gets lost when the debate is framed as a binary choice between “capitalism” — which the left blames for all contemporary ills — and “socialism.”

The polarized ideological charge around these hazily conceived rival ideals leaves both left and right with a dangerous blind spot. As Williamson argues, the left needs to better appreciate the role of capitalism in producing abundance. For its part, he says, the right needs to square up to the unyielding fact of human “risk aversion” and the indispensable role safety nets in placating this deep-seated distaste for feelings of uncertainty and insecurity by insuring us against the turbulence of capitalist dynamism.

Even if “socialism” isn’t really “what anxious young Americans are looking for,” Williamson says, conservatives need to “be honest with the fact that they aren’t buying what we’re selling, and do the hard work of understanding why and what to do about it.”

He’s right on all counts. I’d like to lend a hand and help the right better grasp why it’s bleeding market share, and why the “socialist” brand has caught fire with the “anxious young American” demographic.
Williamson is right that the new democratic socialists running for office aren’t calling for nationalization of industry or the abolition of private property (though some of their cheerleaders are). They’re calling for an extravagantly beefed-up welfare state, and a shift toward stronger governmental regulation of various industries. These are questionable ideas, but they won’t turn America into Venezuela.

Still, there’s a big difference between real, existing social democracy — of the sort on display in Denmark or Sweden —and the Christmas list exorbitance of the DSA platform. (If you’re confused by the difference between “social democracy” and “democratic socialism,” Sheri Berman is indispensable.) As Williamson observes, progressives in the mold of Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez seem not to know or care that today’s model social democracies also boast model capitalist economies that are in many ways more economically laissez-faire than the wickedly capitalist American system.
I disagree with Elizabeth Warren on a slew of policy particulars — on the minimum wage, single-payer health care, and the Trans-Pacific Partnership, for example — but I think her recent affirmation of the progressive power of capitalist dynamism gets the bigger picture basically right:

I am a capitalist. ... I believe in markets. What I don’t believe in is theft, what I don’t believe in is cheating. That’s where the difference is. I love what markets can do, I love what functioning economies can do. They are what make us rich, they are what create opportunity. But only fair markets, markets with rules. Markets without rules is about the rich take it all, it’s about the powerful get all of it. And that’s what’s gone wrong in America.

She’s right. We need markets to make us richer. But we also need them to make all of us richer, and that’s not just about making sure that we’re indemnified against the risks of wrecking-ball competition. It’s also about making sure the basic rules of the game aren’t rigged to favor people who already won, locking the rest of us into a lower tier of possibility. Warren is a free-market social democrat in the Nordic mold. Her vision is a far cry from the anti-capitalist agenda of the Ocasia-Cortez and the DSA.

Now, the problem isn’t exactly “markets without rules.” The problem is that markets are defined by an incomprehensible jumble of regulatory kludges — an accumulation of individually reasonable but cumulatively stifling technocratic fixes — that strangle economic freedom for ordinary people, allowing the powerful to capture the economy by writing and selectively enforcing the rules to their advantage.

Warren pretty clearly gets this too. For example, she led the charge to deregulate the over-the-counter sale of hearing aids, against the objections of state-licensed audiologists and incumbent medical device manufacturers, promoting market competition that raises the quality and reduces the cost of a critical life-enhancing technology.

Ocasio-Cortez should take a page from Warren and learn to love markets. As should Republicans, who might come to grasp the appeal of combining sturdier safety nets with freer, fairer markets.
The right’s Pavlovian reaction to Ocasio-Cortez’s budget-busting democratic socialism has trapped it in a comforting haze of commie-fighting nostalgia. It leaves Republicans blind to the electoral threat posed by Warren’s Nordic-style social democracy, because they can’t see the difference; they can only see reds. Warren’s coalescing vision of the market-friendly welfare state doesn’t exactly amount to the second coming of Milton Friedman, but it’s far more intellectually sound and politically attractive than anything Republicans currently have on offer.

If the governing GOP is unable to hear what Hayekian conservatives like Williamson are saying and just keep on smashing the lifeboats, and fail to offer a compelling alternative to Warren’s vision for unrigging the economy, not only will they be totally overwhelmed on their left flank on social insurance, they might also find themselves outflanked on the issue of fair, open, competitive markets. They’ll get routed by the left on capitalism, still screeching about Venezuelan bread lines.
 

kadotsu

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Oct 25, 2017
3,101
today’s model social democracies also boast model capitalist economies that are in many ways more economically laissez-faire than the wickedly capitalist American system.
I'd like receipts on that one.

She’s right. We need markets to make us richer. But we also need them to make all of us richer, and that’s not just about making sure that we’re indemnified against the risks of wrecking-ball competition. It’s also about making sure the basic rules of the game aren’t rigged to favor people who already won, locking the rest of us into a lower tier of possibility. Warren is a free-market social democrat in the Nordic mold.
So he is for that but not the policy that would actually be a first step to ensure it would come to pass
I disagree with Elizabeth Warren on a slew of policy particulars — on the minimum wage, single-payer health care
The rest of the article reads like the boilerplate centrist idea free quest for "good deregulation". Maybe there is more meat in the parts of the article you didn't quote; something like monopoly busting. But reading it was a waste of time.
 
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Kirblar

Kirblar

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Oct 25, 2017
30,745
I'd like receipts on that one.

So he is for that but not the policy that would actually be a first step to ensure it would come to pass

The rest of the article reads like the boilerplate centrist idea free quest for "good deregulation". Maybe there is more meat in the parts of the article you didn't quote; something like monopoly busting. But reading it was a waste of time.
Receipts? Here's Denmark: https://www.resetera.com/threads/denmark-a-flexicurity-labor-market-under-the-great-recession.60774/

You can support the same goal but prefer a different set of policy prescriptions to achieve it.
 

ChryZ

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Oct 26, 2017
2,890
It's amazing how certain influencers work overtime to demonize even the healthiest amounts of socialism, e.g.

 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,101
Receipts? Here's Denmark: https://www.resetera.com/threads/denmark-a-flexicurity-labor-market-under-the-great-recession.60774/

You can support the same goal but prefer a different set of policy prescriptions to achieve it.
But Denmark also has stronger trade union activity, a nominal minimum wage of around $16 and a very good net, which makes the flexibility even possible. More laissez-faire would mean that the aggregation of the whole economic system is so, not just an isolated part.
 
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Kirblar

Kirblar

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Oct 25, 2017
30,745
But Denmark also has stronger trade union activity, a nominal minimum wage of around $16 and a very good net, which makes the flexibility even possible. More laissez-faire would mean that the aggregation of the whole economic system is so, not just an isolated part.
What Will is referring to is the tendency of market participants to leverage their position (both privately and via government intervetntion) to restrict competition and maintain their status. Stuff like domestic steel producers cheering steel tarriffs, white unions refusing to admit nonwhite members in the Jim Crow era, etc. Having no regulations makes the market less free than having them.
 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,101
Having no regulations makes the market less free than having them.
I agree with this completely but unless I've terribly misread the article Wilkinson makes no concrete policy/principle proposal that actually regulates the market more/differently. The only practical part he seems to agree with is a form of deregulation:
Warren pretty clearly gets this too. For example, she led the charge to deregulate the over-the-counter sale of hearing aids, against the objections of state-licensed audiologists and incumbent medical device manufacturers, promoting market competition that raises the quality and reduces the cost of a critical life-enhancing technology.
The rest sounds good, e.g. a market that creates wealth for all participants, but it is painfully obvious and non-confrontational.
 
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Kirblar

Kirblar

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Oct 25, 2017
30,745
I agree with this completely but unless I've terribly misread the article Wilkinson makes no concrete policy/principle proposal that actually regulates the market more/differently. The only practical part he seems to agree with is a form of deregulation:

The rest sounds good, e.g. a market that creates wealth for all participants, but it is painfully obvious and non-confrontational.
The last part I quoted is why he doesnt directly offer them. Hes saying to conservatives "if you dont acknowledge the problem and offer a solution you wont get a seat at the table when rhe issue is addresses."
 

temp

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
108
This article is just a silly apologia for capitalism and an effort to rein in people disillusioned with the status quo.

Capitalism and socialism can take many forms, but welfare capitalism is still capitalism. But these are people that apparently think that Venezuela is socialist, so it doesn't seem like they have a firm (or honest) grasp on the distinction.


The idea that “capitalism” has failed us and that “socialism” is the answer relies on a cartoonish oversimplification of reality.
Capitalism has, and continues to, fail all but a minority of people. Just because an analysis of a situation is fundamentally simple — the ills of the world can by-and-large be cured by democratic control of the economy (socialism) — doesn't mean it's oversimple.
 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,101
The last part I quoted is why he doesnt directly offer them. Hes saying to conservatives "if you dont acknowledge the problem and offer a solution you wont get a seat at the table when rhe issue is addresses."
Got it. The article makes some sense if you think about it addressing mainly conservatives. I still disagree with most of it as a social democrat, mostly on the grounds that it's a case of identifying the problem (mostly) but failing at the solution.
 

Kyser73

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,846
QLD, Australia
Writer doesn’t even understand capitalism and thinks to prescribe a solution that is still capitalism ‘but nicer’.

Also - US conservatives will never use social welfare as a method of controlling & minimising w/c organisation while they have more brutal methods of maintaining social division (racism being the prime example).
 

fauxtrot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
419
"Hello naive socialists: let me and my friend The Respectable Kevin D Williamson talk at you for a moment about how you don't actually want the things you think you do"

Nothing legitimizes your argument like bringing a conservative who thinks women should be hanged for having abortions to the table rather than reaching out to a prominent leftist to talk about the subject.
 

callamp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
709
There is basically no example of pure capitalism working successfully. In the same way that there is basically no example of pure communism working successfully.

Nevertheless, modified capitalism is almost certainly the best system to improve living standards, reduce disease and poverty, and progress forward as a species. We have seen this over the past few centuries where human progress has vastly outstripped anything that came before it.

But capitalism isn't perfect. Left unchecked it becomes a financial survival of the fittest and markets are almost never as perfect as described in economics 101. There is a key role for government to play in improving the distribution and fairness of capitalism. Some countries understand this better than others. The Nordic countries, for example, use a form of capitalism that works for most citizens. A country such as the United States though has embraced markets as an ideology to such an extent that policymakers will willfully ignore great policy, such as universal healthcare, that differs with their beliefs. The problem is that anyone with a grasp of economics that extends beyond economics 101 knows that markets fail all the time. Most of the time the failures are minor but often they can be spectacular. If you allow that latter group of failures go unchecked, such as the health care industry, the financial sector, or heavy pollution industries, then it is ultimately a detriment to not just the economy but also society.

The statement by Elizabeth Warren seems on the mark. It's a useful middle ground that acknowledges the importance of markets but also acknowledges its limitations.
 

entremet

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Oct 26, 2017
36,627
This article is just a silly apologia for capitalism and an effort to rein in people disillusioned with the status quo.

Capitalism and socialism can take many forms, but welfare capitalism is still capitalism. But these are people that apparently think that Venezuela is socialist, so it doesn't seem like they have a firm (or honest) grasp on the distinction.




Capitalism has, and continues to, fail all but a minority of people. Just because an analysis of a situation is fundamentally simple — the ills of the world can by-and-large be cured by democratic control of the economy (socialism) — doesn't mean it's oversimple.
How do you explain the massive wealth created in India and China that has lifted billions out of poverty?

Global starvation rates have also plummeted since the 80s. What's causing this? Social programs? I'm not against social programs, but they are massive shifts beyond on countries run welfare programs. What's causing these massive shifts?
 

legacyzero

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Oct 26, 2017
4,252
In this example, even the left doesn’t like socialism! Just a few steps short of “VENEZUALA!!” But already beyond forgetting how plenty of other nations have already figured it out. Economic moderates stop playin
 

temp

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
108
How do you explain the massive wealth created in India and China that has lifted billions out of poverty?

Global starvation rates have also plummeted since the 80s. What's causing this? Social programs? I'm not against social programs, but they are massive shifts beyond on countries run welfare programs. What's causing these massive shifts?
I can't speak with authority about the specifics of China and India's economic growth, but I imagine the general thrust of their economic trajectory is tied in with the fact that India is apparently now the most unequal country in the world—"1% of Indians now own 58.4% of the country’s wealth".

Another question might be why is there so much poverty and starvation in the first place? i.e. Do these impoverished nations share a history of exploitation by the advanced capitalist countries? Do Haiti and the Central African Republic not count as capitalist countries because they're on the victim end of the equation?
 
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Kirblar

Kirblar

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Oct 25, 2017
30,745
The article's aimed at a conservative reader who's familiar with the Williamson article, not at a left-leaning one, which is why it's presented the way it is. But it's aimed at blowing up the dumb "SOCIALISM = Social democracy" thing, which is why I shared it.
 

Shodan14

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Oct 30, 2017
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You do know that nuance is a concept that exists?
I know that there seems to be a real confusion between what a free market welfare state and a socialist state are all of a sudden.

Every time you want to say socialist, just say social democracy and you're pretty much good. There's that nuance, my dude.
 

legacyzero

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Oct 26, 2017
4,252
I know that there seems to be a real confusion between what a free market welfare state and a socialist state are all of a sudden.

Every time you want to say socialist, just say social democracy and you're pretty much good. There's that nuance, my dude.
Is THAT the hang uphere? The fact I mistakingly didn’t say democratic socialism? Srsly? You know exactly what I meant lol
 

PanickyFool

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Oct 25, 2017
5,947
I can't speak with authority about the specifics of China and India's economic growth, but I imagine the general thrust of their economic trajectory is tied in with the fact that India is apparently now the most unequal country in the world—"1% of Indians now own 58.4% of the country’s wealth".
Growing inequality is a shit argument against capitalism in China and India and the unprecedented in human history improvement in living standards those countries have had -especially for the poor.

My biggest problem with modern day (dem) socialists is how fucking greedy they are. They want to redistribute their society's wealth to themselves while closing boarders and ignoring the societies they raped for that wealth.
 
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Shodan14

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Oct 30, 2017
9,077
Is THAT the hang uphere? The fact I mistakingly didn’t say democratic socialism? Srsly? You know exactly what I meant lol
Words have specific meanings. When you say socialism, I will think of Venezuela, Cuba, etc. This should not be a surprise.

I don't know exactly what you mean, because there are actual socialists here, go check out the thread in hangouts.
 

temp

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Oct 28, 2017
108
Is THAT the hang uphere? The fact I mistakingly didn’t say democratic socialism? Srsly? You know exactly what I meant lol
Democratic socialism and social democracy are different things. Democratic socialism is socialism achieved through elections and/or an emphasis on democracy in a socialist system; social democracy is welfare in a capitalist economy.


Growing inequality is a shit argument against capitalism in China and India and the unprecedented in human history improvement in living standards those countries have had -especially for the poor.

My biggest problem with modern day (dem) socialists is how fucking greedy they are. They want to redistribute their society's wealth to themselves while closing boarders and ignoring the societies they raped for that wealth.
Unprecedented in what respects? The rapid improvements in living standards in the socialist USSR were enormous and they didn't come with the kinds of economic inequality you apparently don't mind.

From the article I linked—"the bottom half of the Indian people own a mere 2.1% of the country’s wealth". That doesn't seem like a model for human development.
 

Shodan14

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Oct 30, 2017
9,077
Democratic socialism and social democracy are different things. Democratic socialism is socialism achieved through elections and/or an emphasis on democracy in a socialist system; social democracy is welfare in a capitalist economy.
I didn't even notice that. That's an important point.
 

entremet

Member
Oct 26, 2017
36,627
Democratic socialism and social democracy are different things. Democratic socialism is socialism achieved through elections and/or an emphasis on democracy in a socialist system; social democracy is welfare in a capitalist economy.




Unprecedented in what respects? The rapid improvements in living standards in the socialist USSR were enormous and they didn't come with the kinds of economic inequality you apparently don't mind.
How sustainable was that?
 

Tigress

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Oct 25, 2017
4,850
Washington
I agree with this completely but unless I've terribly misread the article Wilkinson makes no concrete policy/principle proposal that actually regulates the market more/differently. The only practical part he seems to agree with is a form of deregulation:


The rest sounds good, e.g. a market that creates wealth for all participants, but it is painfully obvious and non-confrontational.
It may be painfully obvious to us but I believe he's trying to talk to Republicans where this is not painfully obvious. Liberals really aren't his targetr in this article People like my dad and stepmom who have bought into the democrats want (full on) socialism and how socialism is bad are who he's talking to (note he keeps worrying about the GOP being left behind).

I would love for my dad and stepmom to see this article but if I showed them it they'd just see it as some sort of liberal bullshit disguised to trick them (since I'm a liberal and they know I fully disagree with them on stuff).
 
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Kirblar

Kirblar

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Oct 25, 2017
30,745
Unprecedented in what respects? The rapid improvements in living standards in the socialist USSR were enormous and they didn't come with the kinds of economic inequality you apparently don't mind.
They were not rapid relative to other nations. https://nintil.com/2016/03/26/the-soviet-union-gdp-growth/

They currently have half of California's GDP with 4.5x the population.
Who's to say? The Soviet Union was overthrown by right-wing capitalists and currently (I'm really relying on this article) "the top 1% in kleptocratic Russia own 74.5% of the nation’s wealth".
The Russians ended up replacing one set of Oligarchs with another. Maintaining power in the party while liberalizing the economy (similar to Vietnam/China) likely would have been a better net result for the country than the attempt to jump right to Democracy, which just fell right back into Authoritarianism in a place with no actual history of democratic norms and institutions.
 

The_hypocrite

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Oct 29, 2017
2,952
Flyover State
Fuck off vox. Unless the means of production are seized, meaning their property is socialized towards the hands of the workers, it isn't socialism. There are no socialists in the political landscape as everyone uses the terms of the oppressors.
 

temp

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
108
That's a sprawling blog post by some unreviewed, anonymous libertarian guy. There are many actually researched and published accounts of the growth of the USSR and its benefits to its citizens (even referenced within that guy's post).

They currently have half of California's GDP with 4.5x the population.
The USSR hasn't existed since 1991. Their GDP is currently half of zilch.

The Russians ended up replacing one set of Oligarchs with another. Maintaining power in the party while liberalizing the economy (similar to Vietnam/China) likely would have been a better net result for the country than the attempt to jump right to Democracy, which just fell right back into Authoritarianism in a place with no actual history of democratic norms and institutions.
This sounds like a very abstract and ideological appraisal of what happened to that area of the world. I'm sure the beneficiaries of Russia's intense '90s primitive capital accumulation (the class that was driving events during that period) don't mind the results. And by that I mean "a better net result for the country" wasn't on the actors' minds.

The article's aimed at a conservative reader who's familiar with the Williamson article, not at a left-leaning one, which is why it's presented the way it is. But it's aimed at blowing up the dumb "SOCIALISM = Social democracy" thing, which is why I shared it.
It's a puff piece about capitalism and its supposed potentialities—doesn't matter what the intention of the author is.