13 Sentinels removed from the Visual Novel Database (VNDB). Do you agree with this assessment?

[ScOULaris]

Until now I'd never even heard of the Visual Novel Database site, but it recently came to my attention upon learning that the site had removed 13 Sentinels from its database. Apparently the powers that be on VNDB decided that 13 Sentinels possesses qualities that they feel disqualifies it from being counted as a "visual novel," which is admittedly a pretty damn loose categorization. You can see some discussion regarding the game's removal from the site at the link below:

"Not a VN"? | vndb

vndb.org

I've always been interested in semantic debates about whether a game belongs in this or that genre/subgenre, so I figured I'd extend the discussion over to ResetERA given that the game was voted as the sixth-best game of last year and often scares people off with its visual novel label.

Personally, I think the fact that 13 Sentinels defies traditional categorization is one of its many strengths as a singular work unlike anything else I've played before. I'll cast my vote and explain my reasoning a bit further into the thread so my opinion in the OP doesn't unduly influence anything.

 

[gdt]

THREAD TITLE QUESTION AND POLL DONT MATCH ARGHHH




sorry

 

[ScOULaris]

THREAD TITLE QUESTION AND POLL DONT MATCH ARGHHH




sorry

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You mean I didn't use the exact same wording between the thread title and the poll title? Otherwise the question is essentially the same.

EDIT: Ooooh. I see what you mean. From a yes/no response perspective the thread title and poll are inverted. My bad.

 

[Gunny T Highway]

I guess if it is not a visual novel according to them, then I guess walking and talking adventure that has a battle simulation mini game seems the most apt.

 

[Stopdoor]

You mean I didn't use the exact same wording between the thread title and the poll title? Otherwise the question is essentially the same.

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I'm with you OP, at least your options force people to read them closer, lol.

 

[gdt]

You mean I didn't use the exact same wording between the thread title and the poll title? Otherwise the question is essentially the same.

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If I read the thread title, and respond to the poll based on the thread title, I'd be answering the question wrong.


Not a big deal! Anyway, the game is a VN. We don't need such rigid genre conventions. The RTS fights are no different from 999/VLRs puzzles.

 

[GJ]

You mean I didn't use the exact same wording between the thread title and the poll title? Otherwise the question is essentially the same.

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Not true. Your title asks if we agree with the removal of the game, so obviously (as I don't agree) I would select 'no' in the poll. Only to see that 'no' in your poll means something completely different because the question in your poll is if the game is a visual novel or not. Which are two different questions.

 

[atomsk]

I mean the site still lists Sakura Wars games which have SRPG gameplay soooo

 

[Exist 2 Inspire]

I'd call it an Adventure game. Didn't feel like a VN at all while playing.

 

[Dice]

Ehh. I'd rather INCLUDE "similar" games than exclude them. I agree it's not a very traditional VN style game, but eh.
Given how you can set the SRPG parts to "piss easy" difficulty I'd consider that like taking the gameplay part outta the equation.
(I really don't expect people to agree with my takes, I know I'm the odd duck; I just hate super strict labeling).

 

[Tolby]

It does seem a tad more animated than most visual novels, but I'd struggle to put it into a different genre.

 

[NewDust]

Not true. Your title asks if we agree with the removal of the game, so obviously (as I don't agree) I would select 'no' in the poll. Only to see that 'no' in your poll means something completely different because the question in your poll is if the game is a visual novel or not. Which are two different questions.

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In an alternate timeline the OP created a correct poll question.

 

[spman2099]

I don't actually think it is a visual novel, but I think there is enough crossover that it could be argued to be one. At the end of the day, it does everything a good visual novel does, it just has other components as well.

A while back I saw someone argue that the VN component of 13 Sentinels is more like an adventure game, and I think that is a pretty spot-on assessment.

 

[The Smoking Man]

It never felt very novel-ish to me outside of the codex entries. I might be remembering wrong, but there's no real narration, right? It's pretty much all dialogue.

 

[ZeroRay]

It's actually 3 genres

(RTS, VN, Wiki)

 

[Deleted member 16876]

I get why people consider it a visual novel. The structure shares a lot with it. The game might require you to play different segments again but with different choices (though not as deep as a VN) and the characters feel a lot like different routes in VN.

But it is not. It is closer to Monkey Island than VN games. There are many moments in the game where you have to walk around and interact with the world. It is just not a continuous adventure but chapter based.

Then we got the gameplay which further removes it from being a VN (yes I know many VN games do have combat but this game has actual gameplay like a Point and click game).

 

[Tyrant Rave]

It's an adventure game with combat sections. Something like Utawarerumono is a VN+SRPG

video game genres are arbitrary regardless so it's not really a big deal. Everything is made up

 

[VariantX]

I swear I thought it was a point and click adventure game from all the footage ive seen with a RTS portion attached to it.

 

[pinkurocket]

It's closer to a traditional adventure game / point & click than a graphic novel (ignoring the combat).

But idk where that places games like Danganronpa or Hotel Dusk which people consider VN.

 

[chrominance]

Clearly the site in question has their own specific definitions for what constitutes a visual novel, and they're hashing out what those definitions are intended to cover and whether they're correct. Why are we bringing their drama here? Call 13 Sentinels whatever you want, we're not the VN police.

 

[Lowblood]

I get the conflict but if they're considering Persona 4 Arena and Dancing as VNs, then 13 Sentinels should count too.

Unless they specifically want to see anime portraits talking to each other.

 

[Deleted member 16876]

I swear I thought it was a point and click adventure game from all the footage ive seen with a RTS portion attached to it.

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That's what it is. Biggest difference is you play as different characters and their chapters, and the game isn't a continuous advanture like Monkey Island or Full Throttle.

 

[ScOULaris]

Clearly the site in question has their own specific definitions for what constitutes a visual novel, and they're hashing out what those definitions are intended to cover and whether they're correct. Why are we bringing their drama here? Call 13 Sentinels whatever you want, we're not the VN police.

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I was using the game's removal from that site as a springboard for the overarching discussion of whether or not 13S is a visual novel. It's something that comes up a lot when people cite their reasons for passing on the game because they don't like VN's.

For what it's worth, I also don't like VN's, but I love 13S. I voted for the second option because IMO it has more in common with adventure games than visual novels.

 

[chusetto]

It's a visual novel with combat parts... like Little Busters is a VN with baseball "games" xD

 

[ExtremelyBitter]

It belongs on a list of games that people who enjoy Visual Novels should try out/games with VN-inspired aspects, but I wouldn't classify the game itself as a VN and if I wanted a 'real' VN experience Sentinels would have frustrated me. I lean towards adventure game with combat sections.

That's separate from the VNDB issue, though, since as noted that site seems to have a ton of things classified as VNs that aren't even remotely traditional VNs. 13 Sentinels probably does belong there, as there's clearly some shared DNA there and it's closer than some of the stuff still on the site.

 

[entremet]

It's actually 3 genres

(RTS, VN, Wiki)

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Wiki? What?

 

[gdt]

Wiki? What?

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There's a very very robust codex that's part of the game. Helps you sort things out...

 

[ScOULaris]

Wiki? What?

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One of the game's three distinct modes is essentially an evolving in-game Wiki that fills in and grows as you play.

It's sooooooo cool.

 

[Joltik]

The game has more in common with point-and-click adventure games than visual novels. 13 Sentinels just replaces various items that usually advances the story in the genre with various phases.

 

[Deleted member 16876]

Wiki? What?

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There is a section that explains some stuff in depth. Things ranging from energy drinks and food to entire events and characters.

The game has three structures, adventures and combat and the "wiki" when you beat the tutorial.

Wiki isn't required to be played but is there to help piece things together if you are still lost.

 

[Dreamboum]

VNDB deleted the entry because it was threatening to disrupt the top 50. If they ever gave a shit about that, they would have deleted Ace Attorney too.

Not to mention that Melty Blood (a fighting game) is classified as a VN. Persona 4 Arena is also a VN

Persona 4: The Ultimate in Mayonaka Arena

A fighting game spin-off to both Persona 3 and Persona 4, set immediately after Persona 4, featuring characters from both games. The story starts 2 months after the events of Persona 4 and roughly 2 years after Persona 3 FES' The Answer. At the start of Golden Week, Narukami Yui returns to...

vndb.org

 

[VariantX]

Wiki? What?

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Yeah. The more you push the story along more entries are added to help keep track of all the characters and things you've learned about and encountered. Its not like Guilty Gear's compendium where everything is already filled out, its filled out as you play through.

 

[Expy]

This is as VN as it comes...
The storyline is pretty damn linear, they just give the user the choice to experience parts in a different order.

 

[ScOULaris]

VNDB deleted the entry because it was threatening to disrupt the top 50.

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Disrupt it how? I don't understand.

 

[Arkeband]

The "adventure" aspect is mostly a facade - there are very few segments where you're actually exploring anything or trying to trigger different outcomes. 99% of the time you're just linearly clicking on your thought cloud or navigating to the next interaction.

I think the VN genre needs to be broad enough to include VN's that allow you to move back and forth on the screen to progress the text.

What 13 Sentinels does that makes it a hybrid game is the RTS half of it, but I don't think that should make it -not- a VN in the same way including a card game shouldn't make FF8 -not- a JRPG.

 

[Jawmuncher]

If Ace Attorney/Danganronpa is considered a VN in the Database so is 13 Sentinels IMO.

I don't think the criteria for a VN should be voided if something goes outside the norm. The DNA is still fully there.

 

[lemonade]

Sounds like a bunch of geeks getting a power trip on a bum website no one gives a shit about.

 

[AliceAbstract]

I don't think the RTS parts should remotely disqualify it from being a visual novel, as several famous visual novels come with non-novel gameplay segments, including RPG battles and turn-based strategy. But I do feel the game's core genre is closer to "adventure game" (ala King's Quest and Sam & Max) due to you wandering around and giving "items" (conversation flags) to various characters to progress.

But if Dangan Ronpa is on there (and it seems to be) then 13 Sentinels should stay. Or they should all be removed together.

 

[rickyson33]

i've never actually played it so only know very vaguely what it's like but I don't see why it wouldn't belong there when stuff like the Phoenix Wright games are on there

there's also stuff like the 999 series,the Utawarerumono series, the Danganronpa series etc on there

 

[Goddo Hando]

here we go again with the VNDB and their gatekeeping (i literally just found out this site existed 60 seconds ago)

 

[Aerial51]

It's a visual Novel. Mixing some other Genre Elements to it don't really change that.

 

[Dreamboum]

Disrupt it how? I don't understand.

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It was on its way to become a top 50 game in the rankings. Maybe even top 20.

 

[7thFloor]

THREAD TITLE QUESTION AND POLL DONT MATCH ARGHHH

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Why do people do this? I have no fucking clue if the poll is actually accurate now.

 

[AllMight1]

scifi adventure :3

 

[Wanderer5]

*shrug* Okay I guess, but is it that much different from something like Ace Attorney or Zero Escape, which are also not really pure VNs?

 

[Gacha Santa Alter]

If VNDB only tracked "classic" visual novels, I'd be inclined to agree with 13 Sentinels' removal from their database. Considering they have games like Blazblue there though...

 

[BassForever]

Vndb has plenty of games that have more traditional gameplay connected to their visual novel elements.

That said considering vndb considers last window a visual novel

Last Window: Mayonaka no Yakusoku

It is the sequel to Hotel Dusk: Room 215, starring protagonist Kyle Hyde and being placed one year after the events of its predecessor. The game has visual and audio styles similar to the first game's. In this game, Kyle Hyde finds himself in the Cape West Apartments, Los Angeles, in 1980. The...

vndb.org

And ace attorney

Gyakuten Saiban

The game takes place in an urban city set in 2016 and later; for the Japanese versions, this city is somewhere in Japan, while the English localization places the games in Los Angeles, California. The fictional future justice system is such that when a person is accused of a crime, they are...

vndb.org

And famicom detective club

Famicom Tantei Club: Kieta Koukeisha

The story begins with a man named "Amachi" discovering the fallen protagonist on the ground near a cliff. The protagonist discovers that he has lost his memory, and after recuperating, he revisits the cliff and meets a young girl named Ayumi Tachibana. He learns from Ayumi that he is an...

vndb.org

This is just some haterade by an admin there as all of those should be disallowed if 13 sentinels is disallowed.

 

[Zen Hero]

I feel like the adventure elements are pretty light, it's really mostly about reading, so I'd consider it a VN.

The battle elements are significant but since it's kind of structured as a separate mode it doesn't make it feel less like a VN in my opinion. If the game were structured in a linear fashion where you alternate between story and battle, then it'd be pretty much like a regular SRPG, like Fire Emblem or something. But instead it feels like the game has two distinct modes: VN mode and battle mode.

Overall I'd agree that it kind of defies traditional categorization. Really it's just kind of its own thing.

 

[ScOULaris]

Why do people do this? I have no fucking clue if the poll is actually accurate now.

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Maybe I thought people would actually read the options before voting?

Also, people can change their vote if they happened to make the wrong vote by accident.

 

[CrocodileGrin]

It's more like an interactive VN meets tower defense strategy game. I noticed all the Danganronpa games on there. Dv3 is like an interactive VN meets strategy board game. If that can stay, 13 Sentinels should.