MafiEra Season 14 Review |OT| No, really. Can anyone name this character?

[Sawneeks]

Welcome to another MafiEra Review thread! It's that time of the year again where we reflect on the games we had this season and discuss the events that have happened over this time. Thank you to all gamerunners, mods, reviewers, and players who participated in this season! And of course welcome to all new players from this season as well!

Just as a reminder the games we had this season were:

• Love Boat 3, by The Bear
• Steven Universe, by Dr. Monkey
• Life is Strange, by Fantomas and Pirate Bae
• Image Mafia: Yellow Version, by Pedro
• ONUW XV, by Fireblend
• ONUW XV.2, by Fireblend
• Heroes Vs. Villains 2, by Geno and Gorlak

To kick things off we have a few topics we wanted to discuss with the community as a whole. As always if you feel there is something we did not cover or wish to express your thoughts, feelings, etc. on how we can improve as a community you are highly encouraged to bring them up.

1. Misgendering members of the community. We all understand how important the proper use of pronouns is and how misgendering someone, whether unintentional or not, is disrespectful to that person. Recently we've had an increase in improper pronoun usage and despite warnings from gamerunners these instances still persist. In order to make sure all members of our community are being treated with respect we are putting forward the idea of adding a punishment for those who continually misgender people. We have an idea on how to do this and want to know the community's feelings on it. Please note we are not debating changes regarding pronoun usage, we are simply looking for better ways to make sure that rule is followed. Our idea is:
   1. If a player is warned twice for using the incorrect pronouns towards other members of the community, on the third instance of using the improper pronouns they will be replaced.
2. It's been floated that people who break the rules (like the above) that might otherwise result in a modkill or replacement for repeated infractions instead take a priority penalty. Obviously something like posting a role PM will always result in a modkill but given the status of low amounts of replacements we are considering moving away from the modkill/replacement option in some cases. Thoughts?
3. Again related to the above. We have had low numbers on replacements and have had instances where we have run out of people to replace into a game. Given how important replacements are to our games how could we encourage players to sign up for it more often?
4. The 30-minute extension on a tied vote seemed to be well received in HvV2. As always the gamerunner has the final say on game-specific rules such as this but we are considering letting this be an open option for gamerunners in the future. It likely would never be the default in our games considering the time required but it would be there for any gamerunner who wishes to use it. Does this seem like a good idea?
5. Please follow all ResetEra site rules. MafiEra is a privileged community in that the site staff lets us policy ourselves, create our threads outside of the Hangouts area, and other little things. That's because over the years we fostered a good relationship with them. We can only maintain that if the users who represent us, our own internal teams and gamerunners, follow the rules of the site. This is the very first thing that we ask our players to do, but we ourselves aren't above that. Do not break them.

With this season coming to an end and a brand new one beginning we are looking for banners for the new OT! The games that are currently slated to run in the next few months will be in the spoiler box below in no particular order, so they can serve as inspiration. Send any banners to myself, Dr. Monkey, or cabot!

Spoiler

Next season's games will likely include: Conspiracy 2, Death Stranding, Scooby-Doo, Stardew Valley, and Super Mario.

And of course if you have any interest in creating a game, running a game, or are just interested in the process just let someone know! The Review Team is always happy to help and they are always looking for more reviewers for games as well as any interested gamerunner to create one.

Thank you all for a wonderful season and I hope to see you all in the next one. <3

 

[lokiduck]

Thanks guys for running an awesome season (especially since it was my first season actually being here) I just want to say I love the idea of doing the three strikes and your out rule for misgendering as I think two warnings is definitely enough if someone is just doing it accidentally, but takes care of the problem if it persists.

Also putting someone lower on priority for rule breaking seems like a reasonable punishment to me especially if we don't have many replacements.

While I can't be in every game for sure, I have a better understanding of my schedule so I wouldn't mind signing up as an replacement for most games if I'm not too busy to not be able to keep up with the game.

 

[Stuart444]

Don't have time to add much just now but:

1. 1. If a player is warned twice for using the incorrect pronouns towards other members of the community, on the third instance of using the improper pronouns they will be replaced.

Click to shrink...

I was going to suggest this (a three strikes policy basically) anyway once the thread came up due to the misgendering in the last game.

1. The 30-minute extension on a tied vote seemed to be well received in HvV2. As always the gamerunner has the final say on game-specific rules such as this but we are considering letting this be an open option for gamerunners in the future. It likely would never be the default in our games considering the time required but it would be there for any gamerunner who wishes to use it. Does this seem like a good idea?

Click to shrink...

Yes, good idea imo.

 

[Geno]

Please follow all ResetEra site rules. MafiEra is a privileged community in that the site staff lets us policy ourselves, create our threads outside of the Hangouts area, and other little things. That's because over the years we fostered a good relationship with them. We can only maintain that if the users who represent us, our own internal teams and gamerunners, follow the rules of the site. This is the very first thing that we ask our players to do, but we ourselves aren't above that. Do not break them.

Click to shrink...

Who did that?
>.>
<.<

 

[RetroMG]

Those are some good themes for next season. I'm especially intrigued by Death Stranding and Stardew Valley Mafias.

 

[Fanto]

I have a huge pretyped post at home concerning my thoughts on pronouns, but I am at work right now.

Otherwise for now, thanks again to everyone who played LiS, Pirate Bae for helping me design and run it, and everyone else in modchat who helped out. If anyone has any questions/comments/concerns about LiS Mafia, please tag me and we can talk about it here.

 

[Verelios]

I don't see what use a priority penalty will be, especially if it's due to low replacement players/active players since it's just going to cycle back. I'd scrap that and keep the replacement policy/modkill even if it isn't fun for the players/gamerunners/admins. Tough love.

 

[Apopheniac]

The 30-minute extension on a tied vote seemed to be well received in HvV2. As always the gamerunner has the final say on game-specific rules such as this but we are considering letting this be an open option for gamerunners in the future. It likely would never be the default in our games considering the time required but it would be there for any gamerunner who wishes to use it. Does this seem like a good idea?

Click to shrink...

I think the extension upon a tie was a great idea, and I'd like to see it implemented in other games. Maybe the length of time could be shortened if it's an inconvenience at 30 minutes, but I'd be down for more of it.

 

[empressdonna]

I am fine with the pronoun rule.

Like I said in the HvV2 spec thread for those that didn't read it, I know that I can make mistakes from time to time though I am unsure if I have used the wrong pronouns in any games here and if I have, I'm sorry to anyone I have done it too.

The example of this that I used was having a male friend (using he/him pronouns) that plays a female character in an MMO (using she/her pronouns) and accidentally saying the wrong pronouns for the player themselves due to being so used to using female pronouns for their character.

For these games, I try to keep the post with the names and pronouns open in another tab/copied to notepad so I don't get confused.

 

[Ketkat]

1. Misgendering members of the community. We all understand how important the proper use of pronouns is and how misgendering someone, whether unintentional or not, is disrespectful to that person. Recently we've had an increase in improper pronoun usage and despite warnings from gamerunners these instances still persist. In order to make sure all members of our community are being treated with respect we are putting forward the idea of adding a punishment for those who continually misgender people. We have an idea on how to do this and want to know the community's feelings on it. Please note we are not debating changes regarding pronoun usage, we are simply looking for better ways to make sure that rule is followed. Our idea is:

1. If a player is warned twice for using the incorrect pronouns towards other members of the community, on the third instance of using the improper pronouns they will be replaced.

Click to shrink...

I think that this idea is okay on paper on giving everyone a three strike rule, but I feel that this assumes a lot of things are happening that in reality aren't. There were many, many times in HvV2 that people were misgendered in the game thread, and they were rarely warned about it by the gamerunners and it fell on the players to correct people. This was shown further when I read through the scum and private chats after the game where a lot of this misgendering continued consistently without any correction at all. I think that some of us understand the proper use of pronouns and the impact that it can have on someone, but I don't feel that everyone is actually valuing how important it is to get this right.

A three strike rule in the last game would have honestly led to no one being replaced or modkilled at all despite it being such a large problem. We have this large list of rules at the start of every game, but they're never actually enforced unless someone posts a Role PM. The concept of the balance of the game is weighed more heavily than how aggression or misgendering impacts the players in the game, and that's something that needs to be further addressed as these issues consistently come up due to this.

2. It's been floated that people who break the rules (like the above) that might otherwise result in a modkill or replacement for repeated infractions instead take a priority penalty. Obviously something like posting a role PM will always result in a modkill but given the status of low amounts of replacements we are considering moving away from the modkill/replacement option in some cases. Thoughts?

Click to shrink...

I strongly disagree with moving further away from punishments that are already underused and instead using both. If someone can not correct their behavior after three chances, then I'm not sure why we should realistically expect them to turn it around throughout the rest of the game with a priority penalty for the next. They should be replaced out, and if there aren't any replacements, then just modkill the spot. I know that no one wants to actually utilize modkills as it does not feel good for a design that you've poured an immense amount of time and effort to be hurt by the actions of one player, but I think the health of the community has to take precedence until people actually learn how important this is.

3 . Again related to the above. We have had low numbers on replacements and have had instances where we have run out of people to replace into a game. Given how important replacements are to our games how could we encourage players to sign up for it more often?

Click to shrink...

I feel that it's always going to be difficult to get new people to sign up for these games as they often go for 3 - 4 weeks and require a constant investment throughout that whole time. I can't speak for people who have played in past games, but every time I sign up I'm debating the time commitment in my head as well as the potential headaches that will pop up throughout the game. I have to weigh whether the hostility and now misgendering are worth it, as the former is present in almost every game I've played and the latter seriously bothers me when it happens consistently.

4. The 30-minute extension on a tied vote seemed to be well received in HvV2. As always the gamerunner has the final say on game-specific rules such as this but we are considering letting this be an open option for gamerunners in the future. It likely would never be the default in our games considering the time required but it would be there for any gamerunner who wishes to use it. Does this seem like a good idea?

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure how I felt about this mechanic if I'm honest. While providing people a chance for an extra 30 minutes of conversation can be nice, it creates a large range of new dynamics surrounding voting as well as time commitments that it's hard to judge it based on one game. I don't think I would like it if it was required for every game, but leaving it up to the gamerunner is fine to me.

 

[Geno]

were rarely warned about it by the gamerunners and it fell on the players to correct people.

Click to shrink...

This was my bad, this is not really an excuse but usually a lot of activity happens when I'm out or asleep, when I catch up I skim on the posts so that's why I may have missed some wrong usage of pronouns. Although I disagree about the 3 strike rule, it would've replaced at least 3 people in HVV2.

 

[Aeleus]

Firstly that's a very good banner

1. The misgendering got pretty bad last game so I'd definitely welcome a punishment, while a lack of replacements makes the idea of priority penalties attractive I think the three strikes it takes is too lax, I'd suggest a priority penalty if they misgender after a warning and if they continue then replacement/modkilling should start to be considered (ideally I'd like the person whose been misgendered to be brought into that decision but I can understand how that might cause some issues).

There were many, many times in HvV2 that people were misgendered in the game thread, and they were rarely warned about it by the gamerunners and it fell on the players to correct people.

Click to shrink...

I can only speak for myself but I was privately contacted by Geno regarding people misgendering me pretty early on.

4. I really enjoyed the extension mechanic in HvV 2 and if possible would like it to be implemented in the game I'm running this season, if only to test it out on more normal games.
--------

Otherwise for now, thanks again to everyone who played LiS, Pirate Bae for helping me design and run it, and everyone else in modchat who helped out. If anyone has any questions/comments/concerns about LiS Mafia, please tag me and we can talk about it here.

Click to shrink...

How stressful/terrifying was running the game? Not that I'm worrying or anything...
-------

Finally I'd be extremely grateful if anyone was willing to create a banner for the game I'm co-running this season, it would be really helpful.

Spoiler: Name of game

Scooby-Doo

 

[Geno]

Oh lol just noticed the name of the thread and banner, great stuff.

 

[Muffin]

One thing regarding pronouns besides punishments and players needing to do better, because it happened to me: The pronouns listed should be consistent. Post #1 and #5 in HvV2 differ and because one time I used post #1 I confused Weem with Sorian who afaik (correct me if I am wrong) is fine with any pronoun and as such misgendered Weem.

 

[Fanto]

How stressful/terrifying was running the game? Not that I'm worrying or anything...

Click to shrink...

It was stressful for sure, and although some of it may have been due to where I was mentally at the time, I definitely felt really bad at times about the decisions I had to make. I tried to do my best to stay on top of everything and be fair, but I definitely fucked up on at least one thing (replacing melon). I shouldn't have done that, but I did, and I still feel bad about it.

 

[Ketkat]

This was my bad, this is not really an excuse but usually a lot of activity happens when I'm out or asleep, when I catch up I skim on the posts so that's why I may have missed some wrong usage of pronouns. Although I disagree about the 3 strike rule, it would've replaced at least 3 people in HVV2.

Click to shrink...

While that's good to know that people were being corrected in some instances, the idea that you still missed some further makes me question why we should be pulling back on punishments that are already not used. Some of these are people who have been called out on these issues for years, and still struggle to make an attempt to use the right pronouns. I don't see any reason to allow someone to continue to break the rule repeatedly throughout a game and only punish them once they're out of it. The whole point of these complaints is that they're ruining the current games for people

 

[Fanto]

Just since I'm on lunch now, I can kind of sum up my post regarding pronouns.

As Ketkat said above, there was persistent misgendering throughout HvV2 that didn't really let up, that game was 11 day phases long and there were still people in the final days misgendering people they had played with for a month. I find that to be extremely disrespectful.

I dont know about a 3 strike rule, but my idea of how to enforce the rule is basically to go from a private warning to someone if they've done it more than once, then a public warning to the game thread if multiple people have done it, and then replace/modkill anyone who has received a private warning and does it again. If a public warning has gone out, then anyone who has done it before would get replaced or modkilled.

This should be a serious rule. We will replace people who dont make 10 posts, I would think that if there are people who are unable to respect their fellow players personal pronouns on multiple occasions, it should be taken just as seriously if not more.

I want everyone to feel welcome in this community, and it was seriously painful to read through HvV2 at times when it was like D9 and people were still misgendering their fellow players, after having been corrected by other players, the game runners, and even having a huge public warning posted in the thread, yet there were no punishments.

My pretyped post was a bit more eloquent, but that was basically the gist of it.

 

[NeonBorealis]

Hey there ya'all. Still alive here. Still thinking about that Hollow knight mafia, but it will take some time because masters shenanigans.

 

[TheChuggernaut]

Just to throw it out there should we make not using lynch an official rule? I think we forgot to bring it up again.

I have no problem with the warning system for misgendering

 

[Verelios]

Just to throw it out there should we make not using lynch an official rule? I think we forgot to bring it up again.

I have no problem with the warning system for misgendering

Click to shrink...

It wasn't already?

 

[empressdonna]

Oh yeah forgot to say, the game me and Stu were working on is still being done, it is something we need to get back to doing haha :(.

We also have an idea for a mini if there's space for one ^^ which I believe stu talked about to someone this season? at least saying we'd be willing to co-run one together that is not what it is.

 

[TheChuggernaut]

It wasn't already?

Click to shrink...

I want to say no one remembered to bring it up during the last season review thread

 

[Verelios]

I want to say no one remembered to bring it up during the last season review thread

Click to shrink...

That actually might be right. It may have happened during the regular OT thread.

 

[Stuart444]

We also have an idea for a mini if there's space for one ^^ which I believe stu talked about to someone this season? at least saying we'd be willing to co-run one together that is not what it is.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I mentioned it to Monkey lol.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

At the end of the day, it's just a game. Yes it sucks to modkill/replace (especially for a game runner), and to moderate large threads and private chats, but respecting your fellow players and being part of an inclusive community comes first.

 

[tellNoel]

There should be a punishment enforced for players that constantly misgender others. Like Ket says, it sucks to modkill someone from a game you've worked so hard on, but there needs to be emphasis on this because it's really disrespectful to the other player. It's pretty much saying you don't care enough about them to even take a second to confirm their pronouns.
It's tough, especially in games with large rosters, but we need to do better.
Don't worry about being so quick to post, just take your time and make sure everything checks out before submitting.

I did like the 30 minute extensions on certain day phases, but I wouldn't mind if the extension was shorter too. 15 minutes would be a good amount of time.

Whoa, is that The Undertaker from Tin Star?!
One of my favorite VG characters growing up

 

[Stantastic]

For point 2. What are the alternative punishments yall have in mind?

 

[tellNoel]

For point 2. What are the alternative punishments yall have in mind?

Click to shrink...

Maybe a RB and/or a No Vote?

 

[weemadarthur]

I think a single warning on pronoun misuse should be sufficient. This stuff wasn't addressed seasons ago and it's time to take a proper stance.

For lack of replacements, perhaps a bit more patience during signups is in order. Instead of jumping to thread creation when there are barely-adequate replacement quantity, wait a few more days and get a proper list.

I support official recognition for the 30-minute day end extension.

not sure what #5 is about - is it in-game aggression? Or just that mini game account thing lol?

 

[Vincent Alexander]

With regards to pronouns: I know there are rules against players trying to backseat mod/gamerun/whatever. Does this include correcting pronouns? Towards the end of the game, there were 2 misuses that stuck out to me, and I wanted to correct, but I wasn't sure what a player's place was in regards to correcting other players. I ended up not saying anything, but I kind of felt like an asshole for recognizing the misuse and not saying anything.

In regards to replacement lists: do we have a list of people out there who have played a decent amount of Mafia games here so we could build a replacement list to use in emergencies? The reason I ask is because I completely missed signup for 4 of the 7 games this season. That's my fault for not paying enough attention on Reset, and for never hanging out in Discord, but my overall point is that if a replacement was needed in those games, I gladly would've subbed in if a gamerunner reached out, even though I didn't actually signup for replacement list. I would hate for a game to be in a position where it runs out of players and I could have helped out. So, kind of a "permanent" emergency replacement list to use in case those who actually signed up for replacement run out?

 

[Ketkat]

Maybe a RB and/or a No Vote?

Click to shrink...

I thought about this as well, and that's kind of tricky. If someone is modkilled for the actions that they've taken, then their role and votes are already removed from the game, but it can be hard to go back and analyze someone's actions if a punishment happened that removed their ability to do that temporarily. And then there's the issue of if they're a vanilla town.

I don't really think this is a viable option as it's contingent on far too many things within the game's balance to properly use.

 

[turmoil7]

I am against the 3 strikes proposal for misgendering too, I think it can likely turn into a bureocratic layer around applying corrective measures that should include modkilling when appropriate

Modkills hurt the design and game but persons should always come before the design

 

[lokiduck]

With regards to pronouns: I know there are rules against players trying to backseat mod/gamerun/whatever. Does this include correcting pronouns? Towards the end of the game, there were 2 misuses that stuck out to me, and I wanted to correct, but I wasn't sure what a player's place was in regards to correcting other players. I ended up not saying anything, but I kind of felt like an asshole for recognizing the misuse and not saying anything.

Click to shrink...

People in spec chat (myself included) actually notified Geno about it when they happened which lead to him making a post about pronoun use. I think personally though we should be allowed to make that message in thread even if we are a spectator if the mods aren't quick enough though. :o

 

[Pedro]

not sure what #5 is about - is it in-game aggression? Or just that mini game account thing lol?

Click to shrink...

Yeah, it is the latter. Many times we have asked site staff to not moderate our own games and they respected our wishes and let us do that, but we can't have this sort of "autonomy" if we break the rules.

If you want to use forum features that are not available to us, like alt accounts, multiple threads or anything else, Outer Mafia is right there for you to run a game; there was no need to do that here.

 

[CaptainNuevo]

I am against the 3 strikes proposal for misgendering too, I think it can likely turn into a bureocratic layer around applying corrective measures that should include modkilling when appropriate

Modkills hurt the design and game but persons should always come before the design

Click to shrink...

I'm not necessarily in-agreement with the amount of strikes, but I do think there has to be at least 1 warning given before a modkill/replacement, to account for people legitimately making a mistake and allowing them to correct.

 

[lokiduck]

Thinking about it more after hearing what everyone else has said, I do think maybe making it 1 warning might be a good idea as it will help in enforcing it better without making it too complicated. Yes people sometimes make actual mistakes and that's what the warning can be for, but if anyone continues to do it after that warning they should be correctly punished for it.

It's not that hard to have a small window with all the players names and their pronouns on the side to double check before you post. I do it, and I think I've only made a mistake like once? (Which I heavily regretted later even when it was a genuine mistake).

We also need to make sure that everyone's pronouns are correctly listed fully on the player list as there was a bit of confusion for players over wee using both she/they when it just said they/their.

 

[weemadarthur]

We also need to make sure that everyone's pronouns are correctly listed fully on the player list as there was a bit of confusion for players over wee using both she/they when it just said they/their.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, it would've been unfair to punish people for using a correct pronoun that I signed up with, just because it accidentally didn't get copied to the game info lol. But I didn't say anything at the beginning of the game, so i guess i ddin't help make it easy.

 

[lokiduck]

Yeah, it would've been unfair to punish people for using a correct pronoun that I signed up with, just because it accidentally didn't get copied to the game info lol. But I didn't say anything at the beginning of the game, so i guess i ddin't help make it easy.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I completely agree, which is again why it's good to at least give one warning because then if it's based on a mistake form the game information it can be corrected.

 

[weemadarthur]

Yeah, it is the latter. Many times we have asked site staff to not moderate our own games and they respected our wishes and let us do that, but we can't have this sort of "autonomy" if we break the rules.

If you want to use forum features that are not available to us, like alt accounts, multiple threads or anything else, Outer Mafia is right there for you to run a game; there was no need to do that here.

Click to shrink...

Underrstodd. I thought that had been pre-approved lol. Sorry geno for laughing at you. No, with you. Totally. With.

 

[Fanto]

With regards to pronouns: I know there are rules against players trying to backseat mod/gamerun/whatever. Does this include correcting pronouns? Towards the end of the game, there were 2 misuses that stuck out to me, and I wanted to correct, but I wasn't sure what a player's place was in regards to correcting other players. I ended up not saying anything, but I kind of felt like an asshole for recognizing the misuse and not saying anything.

Click to shrink...

I was doing it in HvV2 while I was still around, and no one ever told me to stop, so I don't think this is necessarily against the rules. If it is though, let me know, I can just send a PM to the gamerunner instead.

In regards to replacement lists: do we have a list of people out there who have played a decent amount of Mafia games here so we could build a replacement list to use in emergencies? The reason I ask is because I completely missed signup for 4 of the 7 games this season. That's my fault for not paying enough attention on Reset, and for never hanging out in Discord, but my overall point is that if a replacement was needed in those games, I gladly would've subbed in if a gamerunner reached out, even though I didn't actually signup for replacement list. I would hate for a game to be in a position where it runs out of players and I could have helped out. So, kind of a "permanent" emergency replacement list to use in case those who actually signed up for replacement run out?

Click to shrink...

I think this would be a really good idea.

Perhaps we could make it so that at any time during a season, someone can just request to be put on a replacement list for the whole season? They could still sign up for games if they wanted, but just having a permanent "I'll be a replacement" list might be nice to have around just in case there aren't enough for a particular game.

We also need to make sure that everyone's pronouns are correctly listed fully on the player list as there was a bit of confusion for players over wee using both she/they when it just said they/their.

Click to shrink...

Yes, this is true as well.

I don't mean to call him out, but it does get weird/confusing when Sorian requests for no pronouns to be listed, since this time around that translated to "they/them" being listed as Sorian's pronouns in the roster, when in fact he specifically signs up requesting for none to be listed, because I don't think he minds one way or the other.

I would say either make Sorian (and everyone else) choose what pronouns they want to go by in the game, or else make sure his and anyone else's request is being accommodated correctly and don't list any by their name.

 

[lokiduck]

Perhaps we could make it so that at any time during a season, someone can just request to be put on a replacement list for the whole season? They could still sign up for games if they wanted, but just having a permanent "I'll be a replacement" list might be nice to have around just in case there aren't enough for a particular game.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I like this idea too :o After all being a permanent replacement doesn't mean you have to sub in, it just means the GR will check with you as they go down the list and if you can sub in then great.

Yes, this is true as well.

I don't mean to call him out, but it does get weird/confusing when Sorian requests for no pronouns to be listed, since this time around that translated to "they/them" being listed as Sorian's pronouns in the roster, when in fact he specifically signs up requesting for none to be listed, because I don't think he minds one way or the other.

I would say either make Sorian (and everyone else) choose what pronouns they want to go by in the game, or else make sure his and anyone else's request is being accommodated correctly and don't list any by their name.

Click to shrink...

Agree here. If Sorian or anyone else specifically requests that he is fine with any pronoun then it should just be listed as such so we aren't correcting people when we don't need to.

 

[weemadarthur]

I like the full-season replacement list option. Even a perma one. As long as someone other than me runs it, I nominate, them.

 

[lokiduck]

A permanent wouldn't be too bad unless the people on it are never available, but I guess if someone knows for sure they can't sub in, then they can always inform the list operator and have themselves temporarily removed until they are around again.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

As Ketkat said above, there was persistent misgendering throughout HvV2 that didn't really let up, that game was 11 day phases long and there were still people in the final days misgendering people they had played with for a month. I find that to be extremely disrespectful.

Click to shrink...

I haven't read the whole thread yet - I'm working through some thoughts, but I want to say something as firmly as I can.

Misgendering isn't just disrespectful. It is dehumanizing.

I know there are some folks here who don't think pronouns should be a big deal. That's their experience. I've been an internet-person for a long, long time and I understand the "default" is to assume male. But it is the goddamned year of some lord two thousand and nineteen and the world has moved on. Don't default. Treat your fellow players like actual people. Being welcoming and cordial (except when, y'know, we're accusing each other of lying) is how we build and maintain community.

I agree with Ketkat that our punitive measures are often underused. We rarely want to modkill players. And often, warnings are a mix of public and private, and that can confuse things, too. So maybe the real issues are:

-Warning structures are not consistent
-Punitive measures are not consistently employed
-This raises a question of whether we need different punitive measures for anything beyond egregious and purposeful flauting of the rules

We have to modkill for PM reveals. That breaks the game. And we should for people who egregiously ignore the rules. But maybe we should have a separate system for mistakes? Hear me out on this - as a teacher, at least, I have different systems for students who screw up and make mistakes and those who, say, buy a paper off the internet and try to turn it in.

Now if someone cannot manage to learn the rules? Maybe they graduate from one tier to the next. But this stuff has to stop.

Take a screenshot of the roster. Keep it on your phone. Keep a list up on a post-it. Figure it out. Do better.

I'll read the rest of the thread later.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I haven't read the whole thread yet - I'm working through some thoughts, but I want to say something as firmly as I can.

Misgendering isn't just disrespectful. It is dehumanizing.

I know there are some folks here who don't think pronouns should be a big deal. That's their experience. I've been an internet-person for a long, long time and I understand the "default" is to assume male. But it is the goddamned year of some lord two thousand and nineteen and the world has moved on. Don't default. Treat your fellow players like actual people. Being welcoming and cordial (except when, y'know, we're accusing each other of lying) is how we build and maintain community.

I agree with Ketkat that our punitive measures are often underused. We rarely want to modkill players. And often, warnings are a mix of public and private, and that can confuse things, too. So maybe the real issues are:

-Warning structures are not consistent
-Punitive measures are not consistently employed
-This raises a question of whether we need different punitive measures for anything beyond egregious and purposeful flauting of the rules

We have to modkill for PM reveals. That breaks the game. And we should for people who egregiously ignore the rules. But maybe we should have a separate system for mistakes? Hear me out on this - as a teacher, at least, I have different systems for students who screw up and make mistakes and those who, say, buy a paper off the internet and try to turn it in.

Now if someone cannot manage to learn the rules? Maybe they graduate from one tier to the next. But this stuff has to stop.

Take a screenshot of the roster. Keep it on your phone. Keep a list up on a post-it. Figure it out. Do better.

I'll read the rest of the thread later.

Click to shrink...

Good post, and it makes me comfy to post something I left in draft:

I don't have an answer for what punishment should be, but wherever we land, it needs to be serious. If it isn't, we send a message that some in our community deserve more respect than others. I've misgendered before on accident, but that intent means little. In the end, we alienate, dismiss, and invalidate others. And why? Because we can't take the 2 seconds to reference page 1. Because we can't take the time to get to know some of our community members a little better. Because we're more interested in the game than the people playing the game. We can and should do better. And I trust we can.

That's my little rant.

 

[Fanto]

Finally I'd be extremely grateful if anyone was willing to create a banner for the game I'm co-running this season, it would be really helpful.

Click to shrink...

I can do this if no one else has offered to help yet.

But maybe we should have a separate system for mistakes? Hear me out on this - as a teacher, at least, I have different systems for students who screw up and make mistakes and those who, say, buy a paper off the internet and try to turn it in.

Now if someone cannot manage to learn the rules? Maybe they graduate from one tier to the next. But this stuff has to stop.

Click to shrink...

I would like to hear more about what you have in mind.

In my actual pretyped post, I had this idea written down:
1. Gentle corrections
2. Private warning if it happens again
3. Public warning in the game thread to all players if there are frequent corrections in a single day or multiple players being privately warned
4. Replace/modkill anyone if they do it again after their private warning or a public warning

Basically, it would leave room for the gamerunner to just make a gentle correction in the thread without officially warning anyone, which would cover simple mistakes/typos or whatever, and hopefully also catch everyone else's attention in the process.

If a few of those have happened though, or if there are a lot of people making mistakes in a single day phase, then it's time for official warnings, and anything beyond that is replacment/modkill time. So in the case of HvV2, I think it was D2 when I saw tons of people doing it over and over, that would have led to a public warning in the thread and anyone who fucked up after that would be out using this system.

I think I would try to go by this personally in any of my own future games if we don't establish any strict guidelines on how to handle it. In LiS, there were a few infrequent occasions where I gently corrected people either in the game thread or in the Scum thread too I think, but it wasn't a runaway thing so I didn't feel the need to enforce the rules harshly since everyone I corrected apologized and didn't do it again if I remember right. Had it ever gone past that though, I would have had no problem warning and eventually replacing someone if they broke the rule multiple times.

 

[Maolfunction]

I want to echo support of enforcing a rule that leads to a mod kill if someone is not using players preferred pronouns. I don't think trying to switch it up to a priority penalty underscores the seriousness of the issue enough. I know I've screwed up a few times with it, and I feel terrible about it. It's extremely important that people are hit with a serious punishment so they quit doing it if they want to keep playing.

Second, I'm not sure I entirely like the default 30 minute extension at the end of the day if a wagon is tied idea. As someone who likes playing scum if I get the chance, giving town a weapon like extending the day by switching some votes around to get a tie can be killer for mafians. There's very little they can do to prevent an extension in that case, and more time for town to talk is a huge detriment for mafia.

And currently, the way you have your games structured to where only a simple majority gets a lunch through, it means that the 6 or so people active at EoD are really the ones who decide who gets killed. I've only played a couple games here now and have already noticed that it doesn't really matter what town talked about for the previous 47 hours, the lunch is decided in the last hour and it can be someone the rest of the game did not even look at. On one hand, a mafian in a good town position can easily lead wagons this way, on the other hand (and more likely) active high post count townies will decide the lunch every day. And it's easy for them to get even more time to talk by simply flipping a few votes around.

My suggestion, because extensions are good and make a game exciting sometimes, is that for an extension to happen, it needs to have a player majority vote to go through. So if there's 20 players, 11 of them need to vote for a deadline extension. This gives mafia a chance to prevent one going through and town really needs to work to get one. I think this is more balanced than how it worked in HvV2, but that's my opinion. I'll still roll with it if everyone thinks it worked fine.

Looking forward to the new crop of games. I may not be able to sign up for all of them just because of the time commitment and the need to get things done at work, but I'll definitely still be around. And I'm definitely up for helping someone plan a game. I don't have enough time now to create a game myself anymore, but I have a lot of material I can draw upon for ideas or different set ups someone else can use and I can help with the balancing.

 

[turmoil7]

I'm not a fan of extra time upon a tie neither, it feels like giving town mini extra days, when some scum players could purposefully had been avoiding taking a position about those two tied.

It could be a cool idea for a sports themed game tho, with due balance measures of course

 

[Fanto]

And currently, the way you have your games structured to where only a simple majority gets a lunch through, it means that the 6 or so people active at EoD are really the ones who decide who gets killed. I've only played a couple games here now and have already noticed that it doesn't really matter what town talked about for the previous 47 hours, the lunch is decided in the last hour and it can be someone the rest of the game did not even look at. On one hand, a mafian in a good town position can easily lead wagons this way, on the other hand (and more likely) active high post count townies will decide the lunch every day. And it's easy for them to get even more time to talk by simply flipping a few votes around.

Click to shrink...

What's wrong with that? 👀

But no, you do make a good point here, and I think I remember you talking about how your old community required everyone to vote for the same person to get them lunched at EoD, or something like that right?

My suggestion, because extensions are good and make a game exciting sometimes, is that for an extension to happen, it needs to have a player majority vote to go through. So if there's 20 players, 11 of them need to vote for a deadline extension. This gives mafia a chance to prevent one going through and town really needs to work to get one. I think this is more balanced than how it worked in HvV2, but that's my opinion. I'll still roll with it if everyone thinks it worked fine.

Click to shrink...

This would be an interesting system to see someone try sometime. If enough people want extra time, then they could just put a vote for "Extra Time" or whatever instead of having to swap votes to another player to cause a tie.

 

[turmoil7]

The thing with a extra time vote is, why would someone in eastern timezones ever vote for it if its considerably less than 12 hours?

And I can't think of any circumstance where extending a day that much is worth it tbf