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Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,505
United States
9 hours of cursing, cheering and mental exhaustion later and I have finally beat Ninja Gaiden II on Path of the Warrior (Normal?) using only the Dragon Sword for a personally long-awaited replay and two achievements for 105G. Over that time I've realized NGII is indeed one of the greatest action games of all time and perhaps the most unique due to its old school design lineage. But being unique isn't always a good thing.



I Finally Understand the Combat

Now it's not as if I was helplessly lost across my last playthrough (Path of the Acolyte/Easy?) but certain aspects clicked this time around which were a help in dealing with the harder difficulty. The first of which is positioning. It's so much more important in this game than other hack n' slash, character action, spectacle fighter or whatever you want to call this type of game. The reason being is for how many enemies the game throws at you and how aggressive all of them are. This game makes Devil May Cry enemies seem like the mindless mobs who hardly ever touch you in a Musou game. So it becomes very important to always see everyone in front of you instead of fighting them all at once in the middle like I have been able to do in other games, including Souls games! But this is easier said than done because of the next issue; the camera.

In my last RTTP I complained about this as well before being reminded that reorienting it behind Ryu was just a tap of the RT (right trigger) away. But even after I made this mental adjustment I still found myself frustrated by it. I think its largest issue is just how low it is to the ground. Throughout my time I found myself constantly adjusting it up to see if a wave of enemies was incoming. Compounding this issue is the fact that you are not always in control of the camera. When moving throughout the environment, even using the game's laughable attempt at a lock-on for boss fights the angle can change leading to a suddenly wrong input. This led to a death in a boss fight as I dodged to the side instead of forward due to a sudden camera angle change. Very frustrating.

But when you can see and you've positioned yourself well, this game's combat is unlike any other. Thanks to a video detailing the combat I found myself doing a lot better. I'd use light attacks or a light, light, heavy for an almost guaranteed dismember to set up an OT (Obliteration Technique, tap heavy attack near a dismembered enemy to play a bloody and i-frame filled animation). When against other humans I was a lot faster using shuriken during a jump after doing an OT, using the guillotine throw liberally for a dismember if they hit a wall upon landing and jumping on multiple enemies head like Mario to get out of trouble and stun them by doing so. Even Flying Swallow is handy for escaping danger.

I also found my time learning fighting games over the past few years very handy. Unlike other games you have to hit-confirm each hit of your combo in order to not be grabbed by the bigger enemies because you aren't guaranteed a stun on them or can't even get that many hits off before you need to dodge. And you can't just block for a counter because the timing is hard unless you're in the mix. You can't just block indefinitely as your guard will break easily meaning you'll be stunned or you'll be thrown for a chunk of your health (most of the throws can be read though). And you can even cancel your combo by throwing a single shuriken which is very handy for getting off an OT on an enemy you don't just want to keep comboing as you're likely to get hit by someone else if you do.



The Bullshit

Many over the years have described NGII as being a modern interpretation of an NES game and I now think they're right. How so? Well checkpoints for starters. They'll often autosave at the beginning of a boss fight but not immediately after. And when you have to fight normal enemies after the boss but before the next save point, which is frequent, dying to them means repeating the boss fight. Bullshit.

The old-school vibe is also reinforced by how hard this game can be. Some encounters I genuinely don't know how you're supposed to do without the use of magic or item spam. I'd find myself in a scenario and say "Yeah this is insane and why I saved my magic." I even said that for the third to last boss fight for an attack that I couldn't block and couldn't dodge no matter how fast I was and so I just used my magic (i-frames) to avoid damage. And for more than a few of the fights in the last quarter of the game I just ran from because I didn't want to keep fighting and was glad I did as more and more enemies would be revealed as I went past. Mostly bullshit.

Blocking in 3D games typically means if you're blocking when hit from behind, you'll still block the attack. This is not the case in Ninja Gaiden II. So I'll have just successfully dodged in a direction I'm still facing and the enemy's long attack string still hits me because despite blocking, I'm not facing him. What makes this even weirder? Most of the time this doesn't happen! Most of the time I do block despite not facing them! Weird! But also bullshit and the cause of a handful of deaths for me. A core mechanic shouldn't have any gray room.

I'm not saying the bosses are bullshit, but the range of quality is wildly all over the place. Some frustrated me before realizing I could just practically stand in place and shoot arrows. Some had me spamming Flying Swallow to great success. Another had me literally stand in place, dodge, get a couple hits and repeat. Others the fight would be over before I knew it and I'd audibly go "Wait, that was it?". And more were just as fast but far more memorable because I was fighting an enemy just like me, a glass cannon. The first four (Rasetsu, Genshin, Alexei and Volf) come to mind as the best and probably why for years I never bothered playing past them since they are arguably the peak. And even for Genshin whom you fight multiple times, his last appearance is the easiest as his attack stings were finally reasonable given how much I could block before my guard broke and how fast I could dodge in succession.

Lastly, the game's old soul is most easily identified by seeing the world's first (and only?) Master Ninja, no damage run. It's incredible to watch… for about 20 minutes. I'm not diminishing the feat, but notice just how much of it is triggering an enemy spawn, running away behind a corner and Essence charging. They also frequently avoid damage the same way I did in that frustrating boss fight, using magic not for its damage but i-frames. That was disappointing to see as the best strategies. They're not playing it wrong given the type of game NGII is, but to me it feels like they are. But I also know if they tried it the "right" way, there's probably no way in hell they'd be able to do it without getting hit. And if there's an indictment of the player or the game because of that conundrum, I think it's of the game.



In Conclusion

Ninja Gaiden II is one of the best action games ever made and made all the better and worse by the fact that it's probably as literal of a translation of the original NES games as you can make. I don't think I've ever played another game quite like it. And just like my favorite games of all time, I find myself instantly drawn back to it despite having just rolled credits. My Path of the Mentor (Hard) run is kicking my ass and yet I'm having a great time..for now.
 
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Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
Some of the things you described are kind of the issues with the game as well. It becomes boring to almost have to spam X,X,Y (Square, Square, Triangle) throws and izuna drops and nauseum. In higher levels you absolutely need to exploit the few, most effective combos for each given enemy and weapon matchup and hundreds of cool moves are utterly useless or suboptimal in a game where it becomes mandatory to play optimally. This makes the female characters in sigma 2 problematic since you really become limited in your options to deal with diverse enemies.

I love it though, every version. Nothing beats the feeling of slicing through enemies and zooming in the camera for a nice OT.
 

Issen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,820
I fucking adore this game so, so much. Thank god they were re-released (I don't mind Sigma/Sigma 2, they're good enough for me) and I can still play them on PS5. The best action game bar none.
 

JEH

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,223
Beating NG2 on Master Ninja is one of my greatest gaming achievements. Never cursed but had so much fun playing a hard mode
 

DanielG123

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,490
No lies detected here. Although I will also say that the combat loop in RE is some of the deepest, most techy and satisfying shit I've ever played in a 3rd person action game.

All 3 3D NG games (vanilla 3 and Sigma 2 not included), are A pluses in my book though. Definitely my favorite gaming franchise.
 
May 15, 2019
2,454
I find this game equal parts fun and frustrating, and unfortunately the frustrating bits are incredibly so. I think the Ninja Garden Sigma 2 Black mod does a good job of restoring what made the combat fun while keeping a lot of the changes that removed frustrations in Sigma 2, though it still has its issues.
 

Issen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,820
No lies detected here. Although I will also say that the combat loop in RE is some of the deepest, most techy and satisfying shit I've ever played in a 3rd person action game.

All 3 3D NG games (vanilla 3 and Sigma 2 not included), are A pluses in my book though. Definitely my favorite gaming franchise.
Here's hoping the supposed Ninja Gaiden reboot/new entry uses the Razor's Edge combat system as a base, except with a setting, story and enemy/boss designs that aren't shit. NGRE at its best is probably the most exhilarating action game I've ever played.
 

Rockodile

Member
Dec 7, 2018
1,152
While I like NGB more overall, NG2 is still second best. Imagine how fucking incredible it would be if it had gotten more time in the oven.

No other action game feels as viscerally satisfying to play. Sigma 2 is alright, but it feels like a bizarre chimera of vanilla 2 and NGB to me.
 

Atom

Member
Jul 25, 2021
11,475
It's super duper good. I love how little respect it has for the player and the multitude of straight up bullshit.

Staircase fight is my favorite regular encounter in any action game ever.
 

uuddrlrl

Member
May 30, 2021
716
One of? you mean the Greatest!

OTs are so visceral (and this is the only game that deserves to use that buzzword/adjective).

And the infamous stairs of doom are definitely one of the highlights of that generation, for me.

It's too bad 3RE did not feel as tight, probably due to being based on 3, and then throwing back in all the old features/enemies they could think of.
 

ericsp17

Member
Oct 27, 2017
480
One of the most fun and engaging combat systems I've ever played. If only the level design in the original fully played to its strengths. And if only the sigma games understood what made it great and adjusted around that.
 

DanielG123

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,490
Here's hoping the supposed Ninja Gaiden reboot/new entry uses the Razor's Edge combat system as a base, except with a setting, story and enemy/boss designs that aren't shit. NGRE at its best is probably the most exhilarating action game I've ever played.
Definitely. If they keep the overall feel of RE, while giving Ryu lower recovery frames, keep super armor firmly AWAY from the enemies, and have decent/good bosses again, we'll have a winner. And make it hard as all fuck but fair, of course. As you say, when NGRE is firing on all cylinders, which is more often than not, it's absolutely incredible. There's so much mechanical goodness and tech in it that I'm still learning about to this day, and that honestly goes for all of the games.
 

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,093
Incredible game. Definitely top tier.

Also agree that NGRE has some really satisfying combat, despite its overall flaws
 
Sep 8, 2020
323
A dear friend of mine was extremely skilled at this game. Watching him play was nothing short of incredible. I love watching any game being played at high-level, but there's something about Ninja Gaiden (1/Black & 2) that's just so damn cool. Even now, years later, he and I haven't spoken in over a decade and I'll still watch Ninja Master difficulty play throughs on YouTube 😂
 

Poimandres

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,870
NGB and NG2 are great games, but I would argue they are quite far removed from the original NES games. The NES games had a significant focus on environmental navigation, with falling to your death being the main cause of your demise. There are elements of that in the 3D games, but they are super heavily combat focussed.

Also, the NES games had a wayyy better story which is a bit embarrassing for the 3D games honestly haha.
 
NG2's combat was absolutely godly (I actually think it's unsuprassed) and I actually loved the sheer variety of the globetrotting nature of the story. If and when NG comes back I really hope Team Ninja take NG2 360 but with way less cheesy enemies (I'm looking at you IS Ninja's) and more polsih/refinement. That's all I need and want. Though I fear current Team Ninja will make it a Sekiro/Soulsborne like with spongy enemies.
 

Gouf

Member
May 17, 2018
1,004
NG2 is one of those brutal games where if you can plan around or know the strats for all those incredibly rough spots on subsequent playthroughs (like Gigadeath, the Armadillos, the swamp level, etc.), you'll be having a blast.

Lastly, the game's old soul is most easily identified by seeing the world's first (and only?) Master Ninja, no damage run. It's incredible to watch… for about 20 minutes. I'm not diminishing the feat, but notice just how much of it is triggering an enemy spawn, running away behind a corner and Essence charging. They also frequently avoid damage the same way I did in that frustrating boss fight, using magic not for its damage but i-frames. That was disappointing to see as the best strategies. They're not playing it wrong given the type of game NGII is, but to me it feels like they are. But I also know if they tried it the "right" way, there's probably no way in hell they'd be able to do it without getting hit. And if there's an indictment of the player or the game because of that conundrum, I think it's of the game.
Eh, the no damage run is impressive just to know that it's possible, but it's not really an excellent showcase of high level NG2 gameplay and it isn't a huge indictment on the game that you can't no damage the game playing normally. NG2 isn't like other action games where taking no damage is the hallmark of excellence since it's designed for you to be taking hits and here and there. A lot of high level gameplay in NG2 is stuff like not using UTs at all, not using ninpo, not upgrading your health bar, etc.
 

Deleted member 68874

Account closed at user request
Banned
May 10, 2020
10,441
Simply put it has the best combat to ever grace this medium. For a character action game that's really what matters the most in the end. Incredible game.
 

sixteen-bit

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,680
imagine even 6 more months of dev time on this game

i feel like MS wanted this out in time to have an answer to mgs4
 

uuddrlrl

Member
May 30, 2021
716
Also, Izuna drops and Flying Swallow's might be Ryu's iconic signature moves, but my personal favorite is the various chiburi's (wiping the blood off the weapon); so satisfying after surviving a tough fight!
 

mrmickfran

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
26,805
Gongaga
Ninja Gaiden 2 is absolute goddamn mess.

When the combat works, it's fucking phenomenal. The brutality and weight on those weapons are just so damn good. And Ryu wiping the blood off his weapons after a fight is 👌

But when it doesn't work, it's pure hell. Camera can fuck you over a lot, bosses that require the bow are torture and OH MY GOD STOP WITH THE FUCKING ROCKETS

I like the combat more than NG Black but literally everything else is worse.
 

OrangePulp

Member
Jul 21, 2020
1,755
After coming back to this game recently, via the xenia emulator actually (Surprisingly easy to dump your 360 games! Just install/transfer to a USB drive and that's it), I can't say I'm a fan of the combat/encounter design of this game overall. You basically have to be constantly moving or abusing invulnerability moves (obliteration/ultimates/magic) or you get annihilated. I'd rather movement be something more deliberate, rather than just, stay on the move so that enemies can't get a bead on you. And UTs really start to get boring, to me, after I've seen them 20 times.

It's not the best comparison because they're trying to do somewhat different things, but I think Nioh 2's combat is just a much better design from Team Ninja.
 
OP
OP
Pyro

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,505
United States
Fuck it, I will. Tunnel worm at LEAST. Its omission in Sigma 2 alone justifies the existence of that version of the game.

Still one of the most satisfying character action games to play, though.

Yeah that was one I think I beat by spamming Flying Swallow head on when it was charging and thought was easy. It's almost like every boss has a secret, super easy way to beat.
 

Gouf

Member
May 17, 2018
1,004
After coming back to this game recently, via the xenia emulator actually (Surprisingly easy to dump your 360 games! Just install/transfer to a USB drive and that's it), I can't say I'm a fan of the combat/encounter design of this game overall. You basically have to be constantly moving or abusing invulnerability moves (obliteration/ultimates/magic) or you get annihilated. I'd rather movement be something more deliberate, rather than just, stay on the move so that enemies can't get a bead on you. And UTs really start to get boring, to me, after I've seen them 20 times.

It's not the best comparison because they're trying to do somewhat different things, but I think Nioh 2's combat is just a much better design from Team Ninja.
I don't really understand how you can say that you don't have to be deliberate in your movement though. You can trivialize a lot of the decision making the game asks of you by using UTs or ninpo for most of the game, but if you forgo that, there's a ton of interesting micro decisions you have to plan ahead for. The incendiary shuriken ninja pretty much forces you to plan your wind runs, wind paths, guillotine throws, what enemies you decide to OT immediately or leave alone to control spawns or use for I-frames later on, when it would be smart to use moves with built in I-frames like directional moves or grabs with weapons like the eclipse sycthe, etc.

And that's just one enemy type, pretty much every enemy in NG2 has a sort of high damaging "gotcha" move that you have to deliberately position yourself around or risk death, like the Gaja tail whip, the Lycan tackle, or just mages in general.

If anything, I feel like NG2 is one of the few 3D action games that will continually punish you for mistakes you made a while ago in a fight if you don't plan accordingly and are just moving around willy nilly.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,365
0ZvzDpo.gif


Game slaps.
 

OrangePulp

Member
Jul 21, 2020
1,755
I don't really understand how you can say that you don't have to be deliberate in your movement though. You can trivialize a lot of the decision making the game asks of you by using UTs or ninpo for most of the game, but if you forgo that, there's a ton of interesting micro decisions you have to plan ahead for. The incendiary shuriken ninja pretty much forces you to plan your wind runs, wind paths, guillotine throws, what enemies you decide to OT immediately or leave alone to control spawns or use for I-frames later on, when it would be smart to use moves with built in I-frames like directional moves or grabs with weapons like the eclipse sycthe, etc. If anything, I feel like NG2 is one of the few 3D action games that will continually punish you for mistakes you made a while ago in a fight if you don't plan accordingly and are just moving around willy nilly.

I'm certainly no expert at the game, only played it on the highest difficulty initially available, I think path of the warrior? But the way I experienced it, I mainly just had to always be moving. It wasn't nearly as important where I was going, as much as that I stand still as little as possible. And there was never really a question of not moving, there's just too much shit coming at you (until you've thinned things out enough I guess, but then it's just a question of mopping up). Well, and I think the part that gets me about the movement too is that you're not just running; it's always roll or jump or dash-jump, or flip off a wall, whatever. It felt very spastic to me. But you needed the explosive forms of movement to avoid attacks.
 

Ariakon44

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 17, 2020
10,184
Oh, thought you meant the NES Ninja Gaiden II before I popped in here, in which case I would still agree.
 

DanielG123

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,490
Eh, the no damage run is impressive just to know that it's possible, but it's not really an excellent showcase of high level NG2 gameplay and it isn't a huge indictment on the game that you can't no damage the game playing normally. NG2 isn't like other action games where taking no damage is the hallmark of excellence since it's designed for you to be taking hits and here and there. A lot of high level gameplay in NG2 is stuff like not using UTs at all, not using ninpo, not upgrading your health bar, etc.
This. You can absolutely play defensively and "cheesy" to net a no damage run in NG2, and while still very impressive, it isn't entirely indicative of truly high level NG2 gameplay. THAT shit is truly unnatural to watch.

EDIT: What WOULD be considered extremely high level is a complete no damage run of RE, which hasn't publicly been done, at least not to my knowledge. Someone started to do it years ago, but never finished. With the amount of utter hell and bullshit RE throws at you constantly on both Master and Ultimate Ninja, actually managing to complete a no hit run would be a truly one in a million chance that would take the discipline and focus of a machine.
 

Gouf

Member
May 17, 2018
1,004
I'm certainly no expert at the game, only played it on the highest difficulty initially available, I think path of the warrior? But the way I experienced it, I mainly just had to always be moving. It wasn't nearly as important where I was going, as much as that I stand still as little as possible. And there was never really a question of not moving, there's just too much shit coming at you (until you've thinned things out enough I guess, but then it's just a question of mopping up). Well, and I think the part that gets me about the movement too is that you're not just running; it's always roll or jump or dash-jump, or flip off a wall, whatever. It felt very spastic to me. But you needed the explosive forms of movement to avoid attacks.
I suppose my perspective is a bit skewed since I only really play these games on Master Ninja these days, but I guess I can see how on warrior, where the settings are tuned to be less punishing and the enemy compositions don't quite force your hand in the same way, how you could think that.

I dunno, it's one of those things where upon the first fight in Master Ninja you'd find that you straight up wouldn't be able to get away with an unplanned or spastic approach to movement (An example of this being if you end up jumping on or near a wall, you need to be mindful that you could be hit into a wall by an enemy for massive damage). The game looks pretty chaotic, and in some ways it actually is due to the RNG of certain things, but you have to be able to deliberately control fights and move around if you dig deeper into the game and move up to higher settings.

EDIT: What WOULD be considered extremely high level is a complete no damage run of RE, which hasn't publicly been done, at least not to my knowledge. Someone started to do it years ago, but never finished. With the amount of utter hell and bullshit RE throws at you constantly on both Master and Ultimate Ninja, actually managing to complete a no hit run would be a truly one in a million chance that would take the discipline and focus of a machine.
A full no damage run for RE would be crazy as high level RE play is already extremely demanding. Cicada Surge actually makes it more feasible in a way, but the insane amount dexterity, game knowledge, and endurance you'd need to pull it off would be a miracle. I'd be curious how they'd manage gettting past the acid pit that Team Ninja somehow decided to put in yet another game though lol.
 

DanielG123

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,490
I'd be curious how they'd manage gettting past the acid pit that Team Ninja somehow decided to put in yet another game though lol.
It would have to be an unwritten rule of like "scripted or unskippable damage doesn't count", or else it just wouldn't be possible to do lol.

But I agree 100% with you on Cicada Surge, like holy shit, that is one of the best utility moves ever created in a video game. That NEEDS to be carried over into the next game.
 

KayonXaikyre

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
It really is. Ninja Gaiden II is one of the best action games ever made. Ninja Gaiden black was insanely good. One thing I can't remember is if Ninja Gaiden with Hurricane Pack Vol 1-3 is different from Ninja Gaiden Black at all. Some reason my brains making me think the Hurricane Pack had a little more but I think Black was all of that DLC included. I desperately want another good one. I'm looking at games like Ronin or that other game to maybe scratch the itch.
 

Gouf

Member
May 17, 2018
1,004
It would have to be an unwritten rule of like "scripted or unskippable damage doesn't count", or else it just wouldn't be possible to do lol.

But I agree 100% with you on Cicada Surge, like holy shit, that is one of the best utility moves ever created in a video game. That NEEDS to be carried over into the next game.
Cicada Surge is amazing. It's such a simple addition and yet it perfectly fits the super ninja fantasy. Never gets old having a dude run up on you knowing that he's just going to immediately attack you when he gets close only to just teleport out of the way and continue the barrage. It's so cool.
 

Radarscope1

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,707
I fucking adore this game so, so much. Thank god they were re-released (I don't mind Sigma/Sigma 2, they're good enough for me) and I can still play them on PS5. The best action game bar none.
Thanks for reminding me this exists. I have never played these games and would like yo check them out. This is the only way I have to do so right now.