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RyougaSaotome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,676
I was only 15 or so when the war started proper, but I came from a VERY left household of former colored civil rights protestors and anti-war protestors, and so my family was firmly anti-war from the get-go and never bought into the anti-muslim bullshit being pumped into the veins of America.

I was attending a private high school with mostly rich kids from big important families (got in on a football thing), and I just remember how alienating it was to be surrounded by all these folks who wee going HURRAH WAR!

I still look back on this period with disgust. Bush and his people fucked up the world and it has never been the same since, no thanks to all the others who came after them.
 

Matterhorn

Member
Feb 6, 2019
227
United States
hey wait a minute how did that power, water, and other essential infrastructure get destroyed in the first place
They never had it in the first place. At least in the part of the country I was in, we installed all of those things for the first time. Most places had a single well that the entire community would walk to and carry buckets of water from. They lived in sheet metal homes for the most part though some had mud/stone type dwellings.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
I was 15 at the time, Australia, and it was a surreal rolling snowball right from 9/11. We all knew war was coming, and we knew it'd be hot shit.

9/11 and the subsequent invasion of Iraq was an monumental turning point in modern history. The impact of both on the West and Middle East is just unreal in retrospect.
 

Bramblebutt

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
1,858
They never had it in the first place. At least in the part of the country I was in, we installed all of those things for the first time. Most places had a single well that the entire community would walk to and carry buckets of water from. They lived in sheet metal homes for the most part though some had mud/stone type dwellings.
oh my mistake i was under the impression that a crucial component of the shock and awe strategy was the effective destruction of essential infrastructure in the major population centers, creating an internal refugee flow to the countryside and weakening the ruling regime's grasp on the people

but i must admit its more comforting to interpret one's role in that process as bringing the light of civilization to desperate mud dwellers, nevermind why there are so many there that weren't there before and why they so suddenly need a military occupation to expand the existing infrastructure when the cities are being transformed into hell on earth
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,967
You're not wrong but let's not forget the US Congress also approved the starting of the war and we are a representative democracy.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
You're not wrong but let's not forget the US Congress also approved the starting of the war and we are a representative democracy.

I wonder how Americans on here who gleefully call for sanctions affecting civilians in countries where the regime starts wars would feel if sanctions were applied to them. Putin is an authoritarian dictator who crushes dissent and where elections are highly rigged and flawed. And yet I have seen US/UK people saying that they need sanctions to force the Russian people to somehow risk their lives and get rid of Putin.

The US is a democracy (yes, a flawed one where consent is manufactured by corporate media) and Americans vote for their leaders and Congress who started a war with half a million people dead and a country destroyed. The American public have more power to chose their leaders compared to authoritarian regimes in China, the middle east, Russia etc. And yet they will call for sanctions affecting innocent women and children because it's important to send a message or some such shite.

Remember, even before the Iraq war, US led sanctions on the country lead to the deaths of hundred of thousands of people, mainly children. It was so bad that one UN coordinator called it genocide
Denis Halliday was appointed UN Humanitarian Coordinator in Baghdad, Iraq as of 1 September 1997, at the Assistant Secretary-General level. In October 1998 he resigned after a 34-year career with the UN in order to have the freedom to criticise the sanctions regime, saying "I don't want to administer a programme that satisfies the definition of genocide."[40]
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,797
I was in the military at the time and ended up deploying to Iraq twice. The first deployment was at the start of the war. We went in and "won" in about three weeks. Despite how things ended up later on, we, (at least where we were) were definitely seen as liberators by the local populace. We had several guys in my unit that spoke Arabic and one Lieutenant that actually spoke Kurdish. A large portion of the Iraqi population endured horiffic crimes and persecution at the hands of the Hussein regime. We helped to restore power, water, and build out essential infrastructure as part of the "nation building" process.

My second deployment was in the Al Anbar province, near Al Qaim. This was during the height of the insurgency. The local populace was terrified of reprisal from the Iranians, Syrians, Pakistanis, and of course other Iraqi insurgents who were occupying their towns and fighting against the coalition forces, at all costs. At the time I was 22 and just doing my job. The situation was complicated for me, because 18-24 months prior I had seen how elated they were to be freed from Saddam's tyrannical regime. Then, a short time later, to see what the situation had devolved into, was definitely eye opening.

I saw the torture chambers Saddam kept. We freed prisoners that were held for decades from speaking out against him. We had Navy Sea Bees building schools, day cares, hospitals, etc... But none of it mattered - it seemed that things were just getting worse. When I left in mid-2005 I had decided to get out because I'd had numerous close calls and just wanted to go to college and get my degree.

I'll never forget how good we have it in the West. Those people know true struggle, pain, and suffering.

Also, to any Canadians who think you "stayed out of it" is laughable. There were numerous large detachments of Canadian troops that we worked with on both of my deployments. They were better taken care of than we were!
Man, great post and thank you for sharing and for your service.

I remember back in 03 how much support there was for the war and how brutal Sadam was and how his children would literally pick women off the streets for their rape chambers. It still boggles my mind to this day how he's been white washed as not so bad for the country and at least there was peace. The man used chemical weapons on his own people. His administration cheered on 9-11. Regardless of what lies the Bush admin was spewing or was just in good faith flat out wrong about, there was a real fear among the people Sadam would trade those weapons to groups who'd use them for a new wave of terrorist attacks.

I was supportive of the war back then, but like you say and saw the situation so quickly degraded. A more competent presidency with more competent people may have had actually had a plan for how to rebuild the country. To this day, I don't think us removing Sadam was bad, but everything we did to do that certainly was. This is the danger of the Republican Party and its attack on academia and just thumping patriotism. Anyone who studied the region could have predicted the fallout of what the Bush administrations gross incompetency would lead to.

Life there seems to be better than it was when he was in power (but I am no expert other than what we see in the news these days), but the cost to do that if true... to me it just seems like it was way to high with not just the US occupation and insurgency, but then the rise of ISIS and that takeover there.

A tragedy all around.
 

Matterhorn

Member
Feb 6, 2019
227
United States
oh my mistake i was under the impression that a crucial component of the shock and awe strategy was the effective destruction of essential infrastructure in the major population centers, creating an internal refugee flow to the countryside and weakening the ruling regime's grasp on the people

but i must admit its more comforting to interpret one's role in that process as bringing the light of civilization to desperate mud dwellers, nevermind why there are so many there that weren't there before and why they so suddenly need a military occupation to expand the existing infrastructure when the cities are being transformed into hell on earth
How miserable of an existence must you live to take my initial post to mean what you just posted above? And, to be clear, there was not any need for any kind of shock and awe strategy. The majority of Saddam's forces simply took off their uniforms and went home. There was hardly any resistance at all.

How pretentious must one be to assume that I, as a 19 year old who joined the military so that I could have my college paid for, was there to personally partake in a military occupation and displace and/or kill the local populace? Your ignorance of the situation is acute. I never advocated for the war, the years after the war, or what the situation has devolved into now. I simply stated my experience, having spent nearly two years in Iraq. This is a retrospective look into the war by OP that was started 20 years ago and I participated with a brief anecdote of my time in the war. I obviously should have just kept it to myself.

Also, learn to use punctuation.
 

Bramblebutt

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
1,858
How miserable of an existence must you live to take my initial post to mean what you just posted above? And, to be clear, there was not any need for any kind of shock and awe strategy. The majority of Saddam's forces simply took off their uniforms and went home. There was hardly any resistance at all.

How pretentious must one be to assume that I, as a 19 year old who joined the military so that I could have my college paid for, was there to personally partake in a military occupation and displace and/or kill the local populace? Your ignorance of the situation is acute. I never advocated for the war, the years after the war, or what the situation has devolved into now. I simply stated my experience, having spent nearly two years in Iraq. This is a retrospective look into the war by OP that was started 20 years ago and I participated with a brief anecdote of my time in the war. I obviously should have just kept it to myself.

Also, learn to use punctuation.
i care much less about how your dumb 19 year old ass acted in 2003 when the entire nation was in the throes of patriotic insanity and more about how now, with the benefit of 20 years of hindsight, you chose to portray your participation in this war as a humanitarian endeavor and not a component of the war machine

and don't think it slipped past me that in the recounting of all the groups iraqis could fear reprisal from during the resistance to occupation that one notable group absent from that list was the US military, a curious omission given the kind of info that was filtering out to the press about what was happening in fallujah and abu ghraib at that time
 

Sketchsanchez

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,702
i care much less about how your dumb 19 year old ass acted in 2003 when the entire nation was in the throes of patriotic insanity and more about how now, with the benefit of 20 years of hindsight, you chose to portray your participation in this war as a humanitarian endeavor and not a component of the war machine

and don't think it slipped past me that in the recounting of all the groups iraqis could fear reprisal from during the resistance to occupation that one notable group absent from that list was the US military, a curious omission given the kind of info that was filtering out to the press about what was happening in fallujah and abu ghraib at that time
Indeed
 

Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,316
Pencils Vania
You know the Iraqis were just a bunch of cave dwellers with no electricity anyway. They were so happy when we took out Saddamā€¦ then disbanded their entire military causing total anarchy and one of the most violent civil wars in modern history

Some pretty appalling takeaways there Matterhorn
 

Matterhorn

Member
Feb 6, 2019
227
United States
i care much less about how your dumb 19 year old ass acted in 2003 when the entire nation was in the throes of patriotic insanity and more about how now, with the benefit of 20 years of hindsight, you chose to portray your participation in this war as a humanitarian endeavor and not a component of the war machine

and don't think it slipped past me that in the recounting of all the groups iraqis could fear reprisal from during the resistance to occupation that one notable group absent from that list was the US military, a curious omission given the kind of info that was filtering out to the press about what was happening in fallujah and abu ghraib at that time
Well, it didn't slip past me that you seem to simply despise the military, and anyone who was ever associated with it, despite their true character or intentions. To paint the actions of a few bad actors as though everyone sent over there was complicit and willingly engaged in such behavior is ridiculous and not a good faith argument.

And it speaks more to your warped view of reality to perceive my original post as portraying my participation as a humanitarian endeavor than anything I said. I simply said what we did while we were there. Yes, we also engaged in combat. Lots of people died. I lost friends and experienced horrors I will never forget. It was a war.

I didn't start it and when I could leave I did. I'm not proud of the terrible things some Americans did. But I know that I did not do those things. I helped people, and children, where and when I could. I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for the Iraqis who have endured such a cruel fate. At least I have some perspective on it.

I'm certainly not perfect. But I'm also not looking down on everyone else from an ivory tower.
 

Bramblebutt

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
1,858
Man, great post and thank you for sharing and for your service.

I remember back in 03 how much support there was for the war and how brutal Sadam was and how his children would literally pick women off the streets for their rape chambers. It still boggles my mind to this day how he's been white washed as not so bad for the country and at least there was peace. The man used chemical weapons on his own people. His administration cheered on 9-11. Regardless of what lies the Bush admin was spewing or was just in good faith flat out wrong about, there was a real fear among the people Sadam would trade those weapons to groups who'd use them for a new wave of terrorist attacks.

I was supportive of the war back then, but like you say and saw the situation so quickly degraded. A more competent presidency with more competent people may have had actually had a plan for how to rebuild the country. To this day, I don't think us removing Sadam was bad, but everything we did to do that certainly was. This is the danger of the Republican Party and its attack on academia and just thumping patriotism. Anyone who studied the region could have predicted the fallout of what the Bush administrations gross incompetency would lead to.

Life there seems to be better than it was when he was in power (but I am no expert other than what we see in the news these days), but the cost to do that if true... to me it just seems like it was way to high with not just the US occupation and insurgency, but then the rise of ISIS and that takeover there.

A tragedy all around.

progressive gaming forum everyone "i supported and still do support the invasion, just not any of the inevitable consequences"
 

Matterhorn

Member
Feb 6, 2019
227
United States
You know the Iraqis were just a bunch of cave dwellers with no electricity anyway. They were so happy when we took out Saddamā€¦ then disbanded their entire military causing total anarchy and one of the most violent civil wars in modern history

Some pretty appalling takeaways there Matterhorn
Seriously? That's not at all what I said. Some of the most courageous and intelligent people I have ever met were in Iraq. My post was simply to say that all of us forced to go to Iraq didn't just go over there and wantonly kill Iraqis for sport. It was, and still is, an incredibly bad and sad situation, as I reflected upon in my post.
 

Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,316
Pencils Vania
Seriously? That's not at all what I said. Some of the most courageous and intelligent people I have ever met were in Iraq. My post was simply to say that all of us forced to go to Iraq didn't just go over there and wantonly kill Iraqis for sport. It was, and still is, an incredibly bad and sad situation, as I reflected upon in my post.
Individual soldiers like yourself were absolutely not the issue.

Those in command did not give a fuck happened to those people and it caused about a million people to die. We ruined that country irreparably. They never were able to fully recover and then also had to endure ISIS later on.

It was wrong beginning to end.
 

Trisc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,489
"One bad apple spoils the bunch."

By choosing to participate, whether you admit being complicit or not, you enabled and perpetuated systemic violence and oppression overseas. You describe yourself as "just doing [your] job," but the reality is that was always your choice to make.
 

Bramblebutt

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
1,858
Well, it didn't slip past me that you seem to simply despise the military, and anyone who was ever associated with it, despite their true character or intentions. To paint the actions of a few bad actors as though everyone sent over there was complicit and willingly engaged in such behavior is ridiculous and not a good faith argument.

And it speaks more to your warped view of reality to perceive my original post as portraying my participation as a humanitarian endeavor than anything I said. I simply said what we did while we were there. Yes, we also engaged in combat. Lots of people died. I lost friends and experienced horrors I will never forget. It was a war.

I didn't start it and when I could leave I did. I'm not proud of the terrible things some Americans did. But I know that I did not do those things. I helped people, and children, where and when I could. I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for the Iraqis who have endured such a cruel fate. At least I have some perspective on it.

I'm certainly not perfect. But I'm also not looking down on everyone else from an ivory tower.

you participated in one of the greatest crimes of the 21st century and have the temerity to speak of your" tremendous respect and admiration" of the iraqi people, whose cruel fate the organization you served inflicted upon them. you don't get to pretend your character and intentions matter. the least you can do is not try to whitewash what happened by divorcing yourself and your actions from the corpus of the war, lest you let on such despicable political cretins who might take your experience as license to try it again "but this time with the right people it'll be different"
 
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myojinsoga

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,036
User Banned (2 weeks): inflammatory commentary
All this rather than admit you lost (with 9/11). You still haven't, can't, and won't admit that you were completely and perfectly defeated that day. TKO, flawless victory, hello, Earth to America. And here we still are, pacing the meaningless steps, enacting the nightmare perversions of your vanished superiority fantasy. It's been over, for 22 years, and the hope of America reconciling with, y'know, reality, just continues to diminish.

You built horseshit into your executive functions, as an excuse to allow you to lash out, and now you can't get it out. But not to worry, because your nation's corpse will take generations to fall apart, and generations of vultures will feed very, very well for the duration.
 

neon/drifter

Shit Shoe Wasp Smasher
Member
Apr 3, 2018
4,062
All this rather than admit you lost (with 9/11). You still haven't, can't, and won't admit that you were completely and perfectly defeated that day. TKO, flawless victory, hello, Earth to America. And here we still are, pacing the meaningless steps, enacting the nightmare perversions of your vanished superiority fantasy. It's been over, for 22 years, and the hope of America reconciling with, y'know, reality, just continues to diminish.

You built horseshit into your executive functions, as an excuse to allow you to lash out, and now you can't get it out. But not to worry, because your nation's corpse will take generations to fall apart, and generations of vultures will feed very, very well for the duration.
tasteless post.
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,212
Lord almighty those were rough years.

I remember being on a guided tour somewhere, groups were mixed together. I felt like I was among friends, so I was speaking with casual earnestness to a person in the group about how terrible the Bush administration was and super hoping he would not be re-elected, and they were shocked into tears at such awful things to say about the president. That person is out there somewhere.
 

Noisy Ninj4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
883
I probably would have entered the military if it wasn't for this war. I didn't understand their motives and didn't have the whole story at the time, just saw it as bullshit that I wanted no part of. Knowing I'd have no choice but get involved helped cement my decision to never join.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Anyway, I'm done in this thread. Sorry for offending anyone.
So you will invade an Arab country and to liberate them with bombs and guns, with absolutely zero introspection and awareness, but won't stay to defend your actions on a gaming forum
 

Pendas

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,652
So you will invade an Arab country and to liberate them with bombs and guns, with absolutely zero introspection and awareness, but won't stay to defend your actions on a gaming forum

This is probably one of the cringiest things I've read in awhile....
Not taking anyone's side here.. but L-O-L at the "defend your actions on a video game forum." Like, I can't think of any action that would be more beneath a human being than thinking they have to defend themselves on a video game forum.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
This is probably one of the cringiest things I've read in awhile....
Not taking anyone's side here.. but L-O-L at the "defend your actions on a video game forum." Like, I can't think of any action that would be more beneath a human being than thinking they have to defend themselves on a video game forum.
Ok then don't sugarcoat invasion as different from what you did, no matter how many schools you build - gaming forum or not. One million fucking dead people, and your answer is "but I was helping!"
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
32,776
All this rather than admit you lost (with 9/11). You still haven't, can't, and won't admit that you were completely and perfectly defeated that day. TKO, flawless victory, hello, Earth to America.
What the flying fuck is wrong with you? Seriously, I've seen some tasteless shit but holy crap.
 

Booshka

Banned
May 8, 2018
3,957
Colton, CA
Ok then don't sugarcoat invasion as different from what you did, no matter how many schools you build - gaming forum or not. One million fucking dead people, and your answer is "but I was helping!"
I think we can all find ourselves trying to live within atrocious systems of oppression that we are powerless to control. Your actions within those systems matter, but you also shouldn't defend the system that you recognize as terrible because you personally worked admirably within it.

I'm not going to defend the for profit nursing home system I work under because I see myself as a good and caring nurse aide. I recognize it's shit, and the valiant work of myself and others is what props it up in the first place.
 

Mekanos

ā–² Legend ā–²
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,176
I was supportive of the war back then, but like you say and saw the situation so quickly degraded. A more competent presidency with more competent people may have had actually had a plan for how to rebuild the country. To this day, I don't think us removing Sadam was bad, but everything we did to do that certainly was. This is the danger of the Republican Party and its attack on academia and just thumping patriotism. Anyone who studied the region could have predicted the fallout of what the Bush administrations gross incompetency would lead to.
Posts like this are a great example of how Americans have learned nothing from the war. The fact that you think there was a "good" way to invade a sovereign nation and overthrow its government tells me you don't actually care about the people who live there.
 

Keuja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,185
Don't forget the media campaigns to smear their "allies" largely supported by public opinion.


img-2-small480.jpg
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
I think we can all find ourselves trying to live within atrocious systems of oppression that we are powerless to control. Your actions within those systems matter, but you also shouldn't defend the system that you recognize as terrible because you personally worked admirably within it.

I'm not going to defend the for profit nursing home system I work under because I see myself as a good and caring nurse aide. I recognize it's shit, and the valiant work of myself and others is what props it up in the first place.
This is fair statement, but I suppose I don't see any way a person donning a US Military uniform is doing any good. No matter what good they do, its worthless. Because the organization they work for doesn't believe in building and mending. It's pretty much ACAB scenario. Are their some cops trying to "protect" and "serve"? Sure, but they are operating in a system that is designed to kill, kill, kill. At the very least the industry you're in has a human service as a component. US military operates to kill and subjugate. Nobody can tell me they wore a US Military uniform, went to a country US is engaged in an overt war, and they didn't fire any bullets (or would have, if they came under fire).

I also understand that many servicemembers are victims of US army propaganda, and do sign up in good faith or because they are dirt poor and have no other prospects. But this is the part where introspection is needed.
 

mentallyinept

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,403
It's insane to look back on...

I remember being 17 at the time and being convinced by everyone that had a voice around me that they had WMDs and were just waiting to strike. If we didn't do something now, 9/11 was going to happen again. The palpable fear of a draft being instituted, and my parents discussing what they would do if it happened like somehow getting me out of the country.

The broadcasts of the invasion showing how the US steamrolled the country in a matter of days, I thought everything would be over a matter of *months*.

In the *decades* that followed, I watched how everything basically just turned to shit and we destabilized the entire region on a foundation of lies.
 

Booshka

Banned
May 8, 2018
3,957
Colton, CA
Posts like this are a great example of how Americans have learned nothing from the war. The fact that you think there was a "good" way to invade a sovereign nation and overthrow its government tells me you don't actually care about the people who live there.
Growing up during the post 9/11 era I felt that the chaos and destruction in the Middle East and so much of Africa and the global south more broadly was just like the weather-a natural disaster (80 dead in truck bombing for example) struck the region and the developed world is there to clean it up.

I feel like this is a prevailing attitude among many living in imperialist countries. We presume that the "third world" are just more prone to more issues similar to how the pacific rim is more prone to earthquakes.

Once you learn about the structures of power and oppression that have created and maintained the chaos, because it serves the racialized patriarchal and imperialist capitalist interests of the global north. Well then you should think differently about the strife that befalls the oppressed.

Current imperialism is an update to tried and true "white mans burden" ideology that the English used to completely decimate Africa and so much more of the world.
 
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Booshka

Banned
May 8, 2018
3,957
Colton, CA
This is fair statement, but I suppose I don't see any way a person donning a US Military uniform is doing any good. No matter what good they do, its worthless. Because the organization they work for doesn't believe in building and mending. It's pretty much ACAB scenario. Are their some cops trying to "protect" and "serve"? Sure, but they are operating in a system that is designed to kill, kill, kill. At the very least the industry you're in has a human service as a component. US military operates to kill and subjugate. Nobody can tell me they wore a US Military uniform, went to a country US is engaged in an overt war, and they didn't fire any bullets (or would have, if they came under fire).

I also understand that many servicemembers are victims of US army propaganda, and do sign up in good faith or because they are dirt poor and have no other prospects. But this is the part where introspection is needed.
Ya this is correct, which makes the lack of introspection and contrition even more upsetting.

The most good you can do for the US military is to completely object to it, and if you were duped into serving then the objection should be both easier and more biting.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,701
DFW
This is fair statement, but I suppose I don't see any way a person donning a US Military uniform is doing any good. No matter what good they do, its worthless. Because the organization they work for doesn't believe in building and mending. It's pretty much ACAB scenario. Are their some cops trying to "protect" and "serve"? Sure, but they are operating in a system that is designed to kill, kill, kill. At the very least the industry you're in has a human service as a component. US military operates to kill and subjugate. Nobody can tell me they wore a US Military uniform, went to a country US is engaged in an overt war, and they didn't fire any bullets (or would have, if they came under fire).

I also understand that many servicemembers are victims of US army propaganda, and do sign up in good faith or because they are dirt poor and have no other prospects. But this is the part where introspection is needed.
Thanks for making this thread. It's one where I read every reply, think about it for a while, and then debate whether to post and what to say.

I'm personally proud (or at least, not ashamed) of what I've done, because the highlights were "build Afghan schools," "prosecute rapists," and "share intelligence with Ukraine in their defensive war against Russia." But I'm under no illusions about the well-defended thesis you're presenting here. I want nothing more than for the U.S. military to be a stabilizing force for good, not the least of which is because it's the only institution that's funded and actually does international logistics (i.e., shipping things and people) well in the U.S. government. I'd quibble with your statement that the U.S. military only exists to kill and subjugate -- although that's mission #1. Because we don't fucking fund the State Department, the U.S. military also engages in well-meaning but misplaced diplomacy, to say nothing of other missions. Everything from disaster relief and unambiguous humanitarian assistance ones, to cancer research at Walter Reed.

So yes, I believe I've done good, but I'd welcome a situation where there's a collective recognition that the Iraq War was a horrific mistake that should never be repeated, with institutional safeguards enacted to ensure it doesn't happen again.

One thing that I'm curious about is this: all of the baby Sergeants and LTs during the early days of the "War on Terror" are the Command Sergeant Majors and possibly pinning on stars now. Similarly, while I'm a minion at best, I'm getting up there in rank. Surely these perspectives and the reality of what followed are baked into the collective consciousness of senior leadership now. At the very least, all the principals who orchestrated it are retired or dead.

I'd really like to see a reckoning. At best, thanks to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, we had the WMD Report that formally concluded that the invasion of Iraq was premised upon faulty intelligence and flawed analysis (see: Curveball, among other things).

All this rather than admit you lost (with 9/11). You still haven't, can't, and won't admit that you were completely and perfectly defeated that day. TKO, flawless victory, hello, Earth to America. And here we still are, pacing the meaningless steps, enacting the nightmare perversions of your vanished superiority fantasy. It's been over, for 22 years, and the hope of America reconciling with, y'know, reality, just continues to diminish.

You built horseshit into your executive functions, as an excuse to allow you to lash out, and now you can't get it out. But not to worry, because your nation's corpse will take generations to fall apart, and generations of vultures will feed very, very well for the duration.
Other people called you tasteless, but I see your point. How anyone could view the reaction and response to 9/11 as anything other than loss, I can't understand it. Too many people died, both American and especially Afghan (and Iraqi, and others), and the Taliban rule Afghanistan again. At best, it was a short-term tactical victory followed by an overwhelming strategic loss.

Anyway, I'm done in this thread. Sorry for offending anyone.
I appreciate your perspective.

Kabul PRT here circa 2011, checking in.
 
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Booshka

Banned
May 8, 2018
3,957
Colton, CA
Thanks for making this thread. It's one where I read every reply, think about it for a while, and then debate whether to post and what to say.

I'm personally proud (or at least, not ashamed) of what I've done, because the highlights were "build Afghan schools," "prosecute rapists," and "share intelligence with Ukraine in their defensive war against Russia." But I'm under no illusions about the well-defended thesis you're presenting here. I want nothing more than for the U.S. military to be a stabilizing force for good, not the least of which is because it's the only institution that's funded and actually does international logistics (i.e., shipping things and people) well in the U.S. government. I'd quibble with your statement that the U.S. military only exists to kill and subjugate -- although that's mission #1. Because we don't fucking fund the State Department, the U.S. military also engages in well-meaning but misplaced diplomacy, to say nothing of other missions. Everything from disaster relief and unambiguous humanitarian assistance ones, to cancer research at Walter Reed.

So yes, I believe I've done good, but I'd welcome a situation where there's a collective recognition that the Iraq War was a horrific mistake that should never be repeated, with institutional safeguards enacted to ensure it doesn't happen again.


Other people called you tasteless, but I see your point. How anyone could view the reaction and response to 9/11 as anything other than loss, I can't understand it. Too many people died, both American and especially Afghan (and Iraqi, and others), and the Taliban rule Afghanistan again. At best, it was a short-term tactical victory followed by an overwhelming strategic loss.


I appreciate your perspective.

Kabul PRT here circa 2011, checking in.
This post has it all, thanks so much for contributing.

A personal struggle to do good in the shit, without being vulnerable to the failure of recognizing blowback is a herculean task.

I have had a few deep conversations with veterans that were able to understand and explained your perspective and I appreciate your skill in wording them.

Threadmark worthy imo.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,183
UK
I was in the military at the time and ended up deploying to Iraq twice. The first deployment was at the start of the war. We went in and "won" in about three weeks. Despite how things ended up later on, we, (at least where we were) were definitely seen as liberators by the local populace. We had several guys in my unit that spoke Arabic and one Lieutenant that actually spoke Kurdish. A large portion of the Iraqi population endured horiffic crimes and persecution at the hands of the Hussein regime. We helped to restore power, water, and build out essential infrastructure as part of the "nation building" process.

My second deployment was in the Al Anbar province, near Al Qaim. This was during the height of the insurgency. The local populace was terrified of reprisal from the Iranians, Syrians, Pakistanis, and of course other Iraqi insurgents who were occupying their towns and fighting against the coalition forces, at all costs. At the time I was 22 and just doing my job. The situation was complicated for me, because 18-24 months prior I had seen how elated they were to be freed from Saddam's tyrannical regime. Then, a short time later, to see what the situation had devolved into, was definitely eye opening.

I saw the torture chambers Saddam kept. We freed prisoners that were held for decades from speaking out against him. We had Navy Sea Bees building schools, day cares, hospitals, etc... But none of it mattered - it seemed that things were just getting worse. When I left in mid-2005 I had decided to get out because I'd had numerous close calls and just wanted to go to college and get my degree.

I'll never forget how good we have it in the West. Those people know true struggle, pain, and suffering.
It seems you really believe in the white saviour propaganda. Wish you had done a bit of reading on the history of Iraq from 1958 and where USA played a part in destabilising the country over many years than your snapshot that doesn't even take into account how the infrastructure got broken in the first place. Plot twist: it was the Americans! You should have added Americans that the Iraqi populace feared reprisals from, too. American imperialism through brutality against other nations created the worse conditions that as contrast you feel grateful for in the West.

 
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Cat Party

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,418
What I remember most from that time was how bloodthirsty the US was. Almost everyone. This was an incredibly popular war when it started. We were going to flex our might on the world and be brutal and efficient killers, while also saving the downtrodden Iraqis. We were going to leave Iraq as a stable and much needed ally.

Whoops, turned out we were only good at the brutal killing part. Never got around to the rest.
 

Strike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,359
That war was pretty much guaranteed the day W was elected. In a just world, everyone involved would've been sent to the Hague. Then again, we didn't learn anything from 'Nam a generation before.
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,435
SĆ£o Paulo, Brazil
Crazy that it's been 20 years. It was the first time I ended up being extremely online. That shit really hit me back then.

It remember being very impacted by how surreal it felt to be able to be that "close" to copious amounts of death and yet simply continuing to live my life like nothing was happening.

Contrast that to how little I give a shit about things nowadays. That really says something.
 

sionydus

Member
Jan 2, 2021
1,938
West Coast, USA
I was a child when this was going on, and my parents didn't discuss politics in front of me. Looking back as I got older, it's unreal to see the pure farce for what it was.

I'll admit that I fell for the cute old man who likes to paint rebrand of Bush Jr because I didn't understand this very well at the time (and certainly I could learn a lot more). I wonder if he will get a Kissinger-esque reckoning of his legacy when Gen Z studies up on this in their adulthood.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,183
UK
I can hold grace for why someone would have joined the military and participated in this war at whatever age they did, but if you've had decades to reflect back on your role in all of this, had all this time to educate yourself, and you don't have humility, regret, or shame? šŸ˜•