• We are delighted to introduce GiftBot 2.0, the next generation of our popular gifting feature. To celebrate, we'll be giving away some incredible prizes over the coming weeks in one big Giveaway Extravaganza!

2018-19 Season TV Cancellations/Pilots: Netflix decides that nobody is gonna sit on Ryan Gosling's face

CommodoreKong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,786
I just read this, and putting aside that it's already a few months old (and thus outdated), I think his arguments are a bit flawed because he is rebutting each point with an individual argument. In isolation, he is right about each of those things. The problem is they're all happening simultaneously, and that's the ultimate reason why I think Netflix is going to suffer. They could withstand any given one of these things happening (licensed content being reclaimed, original content being produced by studios who will soon be producing for their own services instead, content being "Out-quality-ed" by competitors, spend not being able to match these new competitors), but I don't believe (and the article doesn't make a case for) how they can withstand them all at once. It's that all out attack that is going to lead to more people leaving the service and choosing one (or more) of these others instead.

Additionally, again, comparing Netflix's past few years and the competition they've dealt with is irrelevant to their upcoming battle. These puny services that haven't made a splash like YouTube Red and CBS All Access (not to mention the others the article brings up which are even less successful) are simply not comparable to HBO Max and Disney+. Nor did they have a substantial catalog they were pulling off Netflix (CBS never licensed much to Netflix to begin with). Considering this, to me "Netflix has dealt with past competition just fine, so they'll keep being just fine," is a weak argument.
I guess we'll have to see, I think Netflix is pretty close to the maximum number of US subs it can realistically have without cracking down on account sharing (which I don't think they'll do) and most of its growth from here on out will be worldwide.

Disney+ is of course going to do well, especially when all of that original content starts flowing in the next few years. I do think it would be a good idea for Netflix to stay priced below HBO Max though.

Pretty interesting article on how Norsemen producer marketed the series to avoid getting lost in the shuffle. I haven't checked it out, but have noticed it popping up in my list of featured titles.

Interesting read, you see the same sort of thing sometimes with Indie devs complaining that Steam doesn't do enough for them when they really need to make an effort to increase visiblity of their game as well. We're well past the point for TV, movies and games that there's so much content that unless you're a major release you typically need to do something to stand out.
 

Peru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,340
Yeah way to make your show look like a somber wake lol. I think you need to sell us on some other aspects first.
 

Bus-TEE

Member
Nov 20, 2017
1,996
So it's The Newsroom but about inane bullshit?
"The chick from The Bachelor is delayed in traffic!!! Pad out the dog grooming piece for another two minutes while we try and figure something out!!!"

* Inception gong *

The only thing worse than Sorkin is people trying to imitate him

Apple’s streaming service seems like it’s gonna be a total disaster
It was sold as a 'comedy/drama' believe it or not.

I've heard that the initial slate of projects for Apple's TV+ is ropey to say the least.
 

Peru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,340
Psyched for the Crown of course

As for Apple I'm curious about Sara Bareilles musical-ish thing. Her Broadway show is great
 

TDLink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,137
The only thing worse than Sorkin is people trying to imitate him

Apple’s streaming service seems like it’s gonna be a total disaster
All of Apple's upcoming TV series are awful (based on both scripts I've read and people I've talked to), with the possible exception of For All Mankind, the Ron Moore space race show... although I think that one is going to have a fairly niche audience. Their entire original series operation has been a shitshow for the last year+.
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,321
People can clown on the WB and NBC streaming services all they want but at least they have decades of experience in the industry and a library of some shows that have been proven to have a dedicated streaming audience. Apple has none of that but thinks if they throw $80 million to Reese Witherspoon’s production company, they’ll somehow come out on top.
 

TDLink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,137
People can clown on the WB and NBC streaming services all they want but at least they have decades of experience in the industry and a library of some shows that have been proven to have a dedicated streaming audience. Apple has none of that but thinks if they throw $80 million to Reese Witherspoon’s production company, they’ll somehow come out on top.
To be fair, a lot of places around town are giving these stupid big deals to people with the same line of thinking.
 

TheNatureBoy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,941
I know it's just a teaser, but nothing about it gets me excited for the show. Show has been in development for a while, you think they would unveil more.

Have no clue what Apple is doing. They are supposed to drop in the fall (which is right around the corner), but they still have no release date, pricing, how they plan to release shows (weekly or all at once), have not announced what is on the service Day 1, etc.

Meanwhile Disney+ is dropping in November and we know most of that info. Even HBO Max dropping next year seems more appealing at this stage. Maybe they have some event coming up, but I"m not drinking the Apple Kool-Aid so far.
 

Jarmusch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,390
Every couple of years you get new Netflix is dying hottakes. Happened when they lost Starz, happens every time there is a price hike, happens every time someone new launches a service, happens every time a show someone likes gets cancelled.

We'll see with Disney+ as that's all just lip service right now when they haven't launched anything and all their announced shows are like a year away.
It reminds me of nintendo takes a lot, even with the same clown "Patcher or Pachter or whats its name" bringing the doom and gloom. They're delusional though, disney + is for kids, specially young girls and hardcore star wars and marvel nerds. You won't find sopranos, breaking bad, The Crown or any prestige show of that kind there, and while i understand that marvel is a really big thing in america these days, in the rest of the world im sure the majority of the people who have netflix will still rather watch narcos, money heist and stranger things than x-men.

Also, netflix is synonymous with streaming app, its the new standard, as in "playing your nintendo/playstation", the brand is really fucking strong
 
Last edited:

TDLink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,137
It reminds me of nintendo takes a lot, even with the same clown "Patcher or Pachter or whats its name" bringing the doom and gloom. They're delusional though, disney + is for kids, specially young girls and hardcore star wars and marvel nerds. You won't find sopranos, breaking bad, The Crown or any prestige show of that kind there, and while i understand that marvel is a really big thing in america these days, in the rest of the world im sure the majority of the people who have netflix will still rather watch narcos, money heist and stranger things than x-men.

Also, netflix is synonymous with streaming app, its the new standard, as in "playing your nintendo/playstation", the brand is really fucking strong
I think HBO Max and Amazon are going to be the "home" of the kind of prestige series you're talking about. And yes, Disney+ will succeed on the back of the "Disney vault" and its Star Wars and Marvel content -- but as has been proven time and time again, that stuff is not "just for kids". THAT kind of argument is the same type that people who are actually anti-Nintendo seem to make all the time.

Netflix is still going to be big internationally for a while, but I think it says a lot that of the 3 prestige shows that popped in your head, only one was from Netflix.
 

torre_avenue

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,327
Behind you.
Nathan Fielder Sets HBO Overall Deal, Docu-Series and Comedy Pilot
Under the deal, Fielder will serve as executive producer on”How To…With John Wilson,” which has been ordered to series at HBO, and an untitled comedy pilot in which Fielder will star as well as write and direct.

“How To…With John Wilson” is a half-hour, first person documentary series hosted by an anxious New Yorker (Wilson) who attempts to give everyday advice while dealing with his own personal issues. Acting as both cameraman and narrator, he covertly documents the lives of fellow New Yorkers in a comic odyssey of self-discovery, inevitably making the audience comfortable with the awkward contradictions of modern life.



Wilson is the writer, director, narrator and executive producer on the series, with Fielder and Clark Reinking also executive producing. Reinking was previously a supervising producer on Fielder’s Comedy Central series “Nathan For You,:” with his other credits including shows like “Moonbase 8” and “Tim & Eric’s Bedtime Stories, Check It Out! With Dr. Steve Brule, and Tim and Eric Awesome Show Great Job.”
 

Jarmusch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,390
I think HBO Max and Amazon are going to be the "home" of the kind of prestige series you're talking about. And yes, Disney+ will succeed on the back of the "Disney vault" and its Star Wars and Marvel content -- but as has been proven time and time again, that stuff is not "just for kids". THAT kind of argument is the same type that people who are actually anti-Nintendo seem to make all the time.

Netflix is still going to be big internationally for a while, but I think it says a lot that of the 3 prestige shows that popped in your head, only one was from Netflix.
Both Breaking Bad and The Crown are only available on netflix in my country though ;) Also, i have something for you... Stranger Things, Dark, Top Boy, Black Mirror, GLOW, Mindhunter, House of Cards, Master of None, Narcos, Dear White People, Sex Education, Arrested Development, Bojack Horseman, End of the Fucking World and on and on and on

So, you're wrong mate, the argument that netflix only has "mediocre shows" is total bs, and intelectual dishonest, they're way ahead of amazon for starters and of hbo in quantity

Edit: Also, it says a lot that of the show that popped in my mind none was an amazon nor disney shtick :)
 

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,730
If you want best TV. Look no further than The Naked Director on Netflix. Must-binge TV if I ever saw it.
 

TDLink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,137
Both Breaking Bad and The Crown are only available on netflix in my country though ;) Also, i have something for you... Stranger Things, Dark, Top Boy, Black Mirror, GLOW, Mindhunter, House of Cards, Master of None, Narcos, Dear White People, Sex Education, Arrested Development, Bojack Horseman, End of the Fucking World and on and on and on

So, you're wrong mate, the argument that netflix only has "mediocre shows" is total bs, and intelectual dishonest, they're way ahead of amazon for starters and of hbo in quantity

Edit: Also, it says a lot that of the show that popped in my mind none was an amazon nor disney shtick :)
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Amazon has had a great lineup so far (outside of The Boys, which is extremely recent, Patriot, and Bosch), but their upcoming slate is insane and has a massive budget behind it. So I'm not so much talking about what has been, but what will be.

Disney obviously is going for something different... but that different is going to be extremely successful, just like it has been in the theatres. And I don't think betting against that is wise. Like it or not, the Marvel stuff especially (And Star Wars to a bit of a lesser extent) is wildly popular worldwide with nearly all demographics. It's bound to be successful.

As for the Netflix shows, I actually like a decent number of those shows that you brought up -- some quite a bit (like Sex Education and Mindhunter), but even though Netflix has some standout programming, they do not stand up to HBO classics. To this day, very few things do. Maybe that will change in the future, but it certainly hasn't so far. Even out of this selection you mentioned, many certainly are in that "average" or "above average" quality category -- even if I like them. And there's the dozens of other shows whose quality are below (in some cases far below) those.
 

Cornballer

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,744
‘Vikings’ Creator Michael Hirst Developing Drama ‘Charlemagne’ For Quibi
Quibi has announced its latest drama project. The short-form video platform, founded by Jeffrey Katzenberg and Meg Whitman, has put into development Charlemagne, a drama based on the wild life of the Roman emperor, from Vikings, Camelot and The Tudors creator Michael Hirst.

Written by Hirst, Charlemagne is based on the wild life of Charlemagne, emperor of the Romans, who united Eastern and Western Europe amidst navigating a salacious, complicated personal life.

Hirst is currently executive producing the sixth and final season of History’s Vikings, which will premiere later this year. Deadline previously reported Hirst and studio MGM Television have been in talks with History about extending the Vikings franchise with a new follow-up series which would continue the Vikings saga. Hirst also has teamed with Sherlock producer Hartswood Films and Wild Bunch TV to adapt Boris Pasternak’s classic novel Doctor Zhivago for TV as an eight-part series.
 

Jarmusch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,390
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Amazon has had a great lineup so far (outside of The Boys, which is extremely recent, Patriot, and Bosch), but their upcoming slate is insane and has a massive budget behind it. So I'm not so much talking about what has been, but what will be.

Disney obviously is going for something different... but that different is going to be extremely successful, just like it has been in the theatres. And I don't think betting against that is wise. Like it or not, the Marvel stuff especially (And Star Wars to a bit of a lesser extent) is wildly popular worldwide with nearly all demographics. It's bound to be successful.

As for the Netflix shows, I actually like a decent number of those shows that you brought up -- some quite a bit (like Sex Education and Mindhunter), but even though Netflix has some standout programming, they do not stand up to HBO classics. To this day, very few things do. Maybe that will change in the future, but it certainly hasn't so far. Even out of this selection you mentioned, many certainly are in that "average" or "above average" quality category -- even if I like them. And there's the dozens of other shows whose quality are below (in some cases far below) those.
well, i mean, amazon is throwing a lot of money around fantasy/sci fi shows that basically before GOT were a niche segment, so ill wait and see before proclaiming that strategy a success.

Although the disney stuff doesnt attract me at all, im sure it will be pretty successful in the states while the marvel iron is hot, i will still reserve my judgment of their ceiling because of international distribution and the fact that they have that pg13 rating handicapping the whole operation.

Hbo has the quality stuff, although im struggling to see their recent material that is above and beyond the "average" netflix shows you mentioned. Their truly great series are all from the 2000's, be it the wire, sopranos, curb your enthusiasm or six feet under. GOT unfortunately wasnt consistently great. That said, they're super niche outside the us without GOT.

Netflix is huge here in europe, with a lot of local content making their mark already, money heist is GOT kinda big here, very good French and German shows also and the british content is stellar as well. So, as in the videogame sales, netflix doesnt need to overwhelm in the us like xbox or nintendo cause they got a strong grip on international markets and with key demographics.

Of these big three, they're the strongest with anime, reality tv alike shows and soap operas alikes, they legit deeper for women, old folks and more casual watchers, and that matters.
 

DanGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,553
Quibi is where you take free money for projects no one else will buy. It's a broader form of the Hollywood welfare that Go90 was for improv comics.

well, i mean, amazon is throwing a lot of money around fantasy/sci fi shows that basically before GOT were a niche segment, so ill wait and see before proclaiming that strategy a success.
I think you're ignoring a lot of history and context if you think Game of Thrones is what put genre shows on the map.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,367
As for the Netflix shows, I actually like a decent number of those shows that you brought up -- some quite a bit (like Sex Education and Mindhunter), but even though Netflix has some standout programming, they do not stand up to HBO classics.
But neither does the current HBO lineup either. Other than GoT (from an audience standpoint, not quality). But that's over now. Without GoT, HBO doesn't have a super buzzy maintstream hit as a centerpiece to their lineup. Maybe it will be the GoT prequel but I wouldn't bet on that.
 

Nabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,898
That Morning Show teaser reminded me a lot of Studio 60. Granted no Sorkin-esque dialogue scenes shown, but the seeming premise. Studio 60 was kinda mixed and meh, but I sorta enjoyed parts of it. It took itself super seriously and the SNL analogue at the center of the show did deal with some legitimately serious issues, but still it was supposed to be more or less SNL so some of the high-stakes drama around felt tonally odd to me. I could see this show being similar based on the teaser.

While I was super mixed on Studio 60, I can't say I've seen many similarly weird shows since so I'd try this one if it reviews at least okayish.

Then again at least Studio 60 had the Sorkin dialogue to propel the eps forward when the plotting was at times mixed or unusual. Dunno what this will be like but TDLink 's insights have given me pause about Apple+ for a long while now.
 

TDLink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,137
well, i mean, amazon is throwing a lot of money around fantasy/sci fi shows that basically before GOT were a niche segment, so ill wait and see before proclaiming that strategy a success.

Although the disney stuff doesnt attract me at all, im sure it will be pretty successful in the states while the marvel iron is hot, i will still reserve my judgment of their ceiling because of international distribution and the fact that they have that pg13 rating handicapping the whole operation.

Hbo has the quality stuff, although im struggling to see their recent material that is above and beyond the "average" netflix shows you mentioned. Their truly great series are all from the 2000's, be it the wire, sopranos, curb your enthusiasm or six feet under. GOT unfortunately wasnt consistently great. That said, they're super niche outside the us without GOT.

Netflix is huge here in europe, with a lot of local content making their mark already, money heist is GOT kinda big here, very good French and German shows also and the british content is stellar as well. So, as in the videogame sales, netflix doesnt need to overwhelm in the us like xbox or nintendo cause they got a strong grip on international markets and with key demographics.

Of these big three, they're the strongest with anime, reality tv alike shows and soap operas alikes, they legit deeper for women, old folks and more casual watchers, and that matters.
But neither does the current HBO lineup either. Other than GoT (from an audience standpoint, not quality). But that's over now. Without GoT, HBO doesn't have a super buzzy maintstream hit as a centerpiece to their lineup. Maybe it will be the GoT prequel but I wouldn't bet on that.
Well first of all, there is this:
I think you're ignoring a lot of history and context if you think Game of Thrones is what put genre shows on the map.
Beyond that, the current/recent HBO lineup is not in the same league as the best of the best that HBO has put out, but it is still of a consistently high quality (last couple seasons of GoT nonwithstanding). That includes recent/ongoing stuff like Big Little Lies, Barry, Succession, The Deuce to name a few -- as well as upcoming assumed quality programs like The Righteous Gemstones and His Dark Materials. Their upcoming slate past this year is also very strong. People are definitely going to check out the GoT prequel, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if His Dark Materials, Watchmen, or Demimonde/Contraband/whatever they end up calling it become hits as well. Not to mention that soon this is all going to converge and merge into HBO Max anyway, who also has a whole slew of originals coming, which will be sure to get hefty budgets with a strong eye on quality as well (including the Dune series, Circe, and Tokyo Vice).

Netflix has definitely diversified if we're talking about anything other than scripted live-action series, which is great for them and is going to help -- but Amazon and HBO are also both investing in docuseries and reality too. Anime is a bit of a weaker spot for the competitors, though even with Netflix's recent anime investment, I'm not really sure that's the go-to place for it over, say, something free like Cruncyhroll. Funimation, a big provider, also has an exclusive deal with Hulu.

At the end of the day, I definitely think Netflix is going to continue to be larger in Europe. They made smart international investments and have a huge lead there -- and I don't think it's an area some of the competition particularly cares about competing in. That may just be the niche they naturally fall into. But I'm largely talking about their competition with scripted Hollywood series. Their strategy of greenlighting just about anything in a scattershot approach so that they naturally hit a few quality series out there isn't going to hold up when the others all are being more discerning with the quality they put out.
 

TDLink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,137
That Morning Show teaser reminded me a lot of Studio 60. Granted no Sorkin-esque dialogue scenes shown, but the seeming premise. Studio 60 was kinda mixed and meh, but I sorta enjoyed parts of it. It took itself super seriously and the SNL analogue at the center of the show did deal with some legitimately serious issues, but still it was supposed to be more or less SNL so some of the high-stakes drama around felt tonally odd to me. I could see this show being similar based on the teaser.

While I was super mixed on Studio 60, I can't say I've seen many similarly weird shows since so I'd try this one if it reviews at least okayish.

Then again at least Studio 60 had the Sorkin dialogue to propel the eps forward when the plotting was at times mixed or unusual. Dunno what this will be like but TDLink 's insights have given me pause about Apple+ for a long while now.
At the very least, Morning Show is just going to be bland rather than actively bad... so it will be better than most of the lineup.
 

Jarmusch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,390
Well first of all, there is this:


Beyond that, the current/recent HBO lineup is not in the same league as the best of the best that HBO has put out, but it is still of a consistently high quality (last couple seasons of GoT nonwithstanding). That includes recent/ongoing stuff like Big Little Lies, Barry, Succession, The Deuce to name a few -- as well as upcoming assumed quality programs like The Righteous Gemstones and His Dark Materials. Their upcoming slate past this year is also very strong. People are definitely going to check out the GoT prequel, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if His Dark Materials, Watchmen, or Demimonde/Contraband/whatever they end up calling it become hits as well. Not to mention that soon this is all going to converge and merge into HBO Max anyway, who also has a whole slew of originals coming, which will be sure to get hefty budgets with a strong eye on quality as well (including the Dune series, Circe, and Tokyo Vice).

Netflix has definitely diversified if we're talking about anything other than scripted live-action series, which is great for them and is going to help -- but Amazon and HBO are also both investing in docuseries and reality too. Anime is a bit of a weaker spot for the competitors, though even with Netflix's recent anime investment, I'm not really sure that's the go-to place for it over, say, something free like Cruncyhroll. Funimation, a big provider, also has an exclusive deal with Hulu.

At the end of the day, I definitely think Netflix is going to continue to be larger in Europe. They made smart international investments and have a huge lead there -- and I don't think it's an area some of the competition particularly cares about competing in. That may just be the niche they naturally fall into. But I'm largely talking about their competition with scripted Hollywood series. Their strategy of greenlighting just about anything in a scattershot approach so that they naturally hit a few quality series out there isn't going to hold up when the others all are being more discerning with the quality they put out.
I generally agree with the points you made, i'd just add that the deuce, big little lies to me are in the same ball park of the netflix series i mentioned, very good shows, just less in quantity than the originals that netflix offers.

I see you painting a super optimistic picture of amazons and hbo's new productions, which is fair but i think you're underestimating future netflix projects...like the witcher series, the sandman adaptation, the mark millar projects, one hundred years of solitude series, the many videogame adaptations, dragons dogma, dmc and diablo animated series, resident evil live action stuff, the narnia show, the del toro's horror anthology, etc...

Im sure that some or even many can suck but if one or two hit the sweet spot, its a success for them, i think.
 

Rhaknar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,136
Someone made a random Casa de Papel (Moneyheist) joke/comment in a weekly sports program (of all things) here on TV the other day, like it was part of pop culture as any other big show.

So yeah, it's pretty big here in Portugal for example (especially considering Netflix is only a couple of years old here).
 

Cornballer

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,744
‘Succession’ Hits Series High Ratings In Season 2 Premiere On HBO
On the heels of scoring 5 Primetime Emmy nominations for its freshman run, including Outstanding Drama Series, HBO’s family saga Succession returned for a second season on Sunday to a series high 1.2 million premiere night viewers across HBO’s linear network and digital platforms.

That was up +32% from the viewership for Succession‘s series premiere night (918,000 viewers) and +22% from the nightly audience for the Season 1 finale (997,000 viewers).

The Season 2 opener averaged 612,000 viewers at 9 PM on HBO, up +5% from the Season 1 premiere, indicating that most of the premiere night gains came from digital viewing. (In linear Live+ same day premiere ratings, the series high mark still belongs to the Season 1 finale, 730,000 viewers)
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,128
I truly don't see how the current HBO lineup is better than Netflix. Euphoria and Chernobyl are probably my top 2 shows of the year but I think we really have to wait and see how the rest of that lineup turns out.

Netflix has so much more diversity that even if the very top of HBO is better than the top of Netflix, they have a ton of great shows to compensate.

I'm excited to see what that extra money HBO is pumping out leads to though