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TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
I think Quibi (or something like it) could be the future (or at least successful). TV is trending towards smaller and smaller episode counts and lengths - the standard length of a premium drama season is now like 8-10 episodes and even TV enthusiasts seem to recoil at the thought of a 13 episode season or 50+ minute episodes these days. we're inching closer to the British model of 4-6 episode seasons and with the introduction of the half hour drama I could see the more bite sized approach of Quibi eventually catching on, especially for comedies

Quibi being exclusive to phones will probably hurt it though.
I think there's a point where things can't shrink anymore, and 10 mins (or less) is that point, at least for dramas. Comedy of course lends itself well to the format since there's standup or improv sets, as well as scripted skits that easily fall into that time limit. But Dramas... I don't know. It's hard to get across a satisfying amount of character development, action, and plot progression in only 10 minutes. I do see people complaining about longer seasons now, but not longer episodes. People were more than happy with the 60+ minute GoT episodes, for example. And if anything more and more shows have trended in -that- direction as most programming now doesn't have to accommodate for commercial breaks and the ~42 mins that locks you into.

This all being a cash grab for Katzenberg aside, I don't really see the model working well (at least with drama)... even moreso given that the majority of these shows are features chopped up (which goes against how they have been conceived). I just don't see a world where kids are watching an episode of something on Quibi on their way somewhere over checking their socials. And if they're sitting down to watch a show, they probably are going to be in for something longer than 10 mins.
 

DanGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,742
I think Quibi (or something like it) could be the future (or at least successful). TV is trending towards smaller and smaller episode counts and lengths - the standard length of a premium drama season is now like 8-10 episodes and even TV enthusiasts seem to recoil at the thought of a 13 episode season or 50+ minute episodes these days. we're inching closer to the British model of 4-6 episode seasons and with the introduction of the half hour drama I could see the more bite sized approach of Quibi eventually catching on, especially for comedies

Quibi being exclusive to phones will probably hurt it though.
It'd make more sense for the big streamers to simply also offer bite-sized programming in order to keep eyeballs on their apps while people are on-the-go rather than going to YouTube, Snapchat, etc. I know Netflix has already been experimenting with more 12-15 minute stuff. I don't see much of an audience for subscribing to a service that exclusively offers very short episodes only viewable on phones. People want that stuff for free (see the aforementioned YouTube, Snapchat, etc) or as part of services they're already paying for.
 

RatskyWatsky

Are we human or are we dancer?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,931
I think there's a point where things can't shrink anymore, and 10 mins (or less) is that point, at least for dramas. Comedy of course lends itself well to the format since there's standup or improv sets, as well as scripted skits that easily fall into that time limit. But Dramas... I don't know. It's hard to get across a satisfying amount of character development, action, and plot progression in only 10 minutes.

Sundance TV's 'State of the Union' is a 10-ish minute per episode drama that got a fair amount of acclaim and just won the Short Form Emmy, so it definitely can be done. There's also stuff like High Maintenance, which worked really well when it was a short form series on Vimeo. I mean, there were people doubtful that a 30 minute drama could work and now there's a bunch of them. Attention spans shrink!

I do see people complaining about longer seasons now, but not longer episodes. People were more than happy with the 60+ minute GoT episodes, for example. And if anything more and more shows have trended in -that- direction as most programming now doesn't have to accommodate for commercial breaks and the ~42 mins that locks you into.

Hm. "That episode did NOT need to be 50 minutes" is one of the most common complaints I see these days. I'm even noticing it from myself - whenever I see, say, Succession going 60+ minutes, even though I think it's a generally well crafted and enjoyable show, I groan a little bit and think to myself "Really?".

This all being a cash grab for Katzenberg aside, I don't really see the model working well (at least with drama)... even moreso given that the majority of these shows are features chopped up (which goes against how they have been conceived). I just don't see a world where kids are watching an episode of something on Quibi on their way somewhere over checking their socials. And if they're sitting down to watch a show, they probably are going to be in for something longer than 10 mins.

I've always thought that a lot of shorter series seemed like movies that they couldn't get feature funding for, so they stretched out the story and pitched it as a TV show instead. I suppose features being made on a TV budget and then getting chopped up into episodes makes about as much sense.

It'd make more sense for the big streamers to simply also offer bite-sized programming in order to keep eyeballs on their apps while people are on-the-go rather than going to YouTube, Snapchat, etc. I know Netflix has already been experimenting with more 12-15 minute stuff. I don't see much of an audience for subscribing to a service that exclusively offers very short episodes only viewable on phones. People want that stuff for free (see the aforementioned YouTube, Snapchat, etc) or as part of services they're already paying for.

If enough people are watching short form stuff (which they already are on YouTube, etc. as you mentioned), then I could see a genuine demand for more high quality stuff in that space. They have a lot of talented people on board Quibi, so there could be some great stuff coming out of it. If the price is right (and if they expand beyond phones) I could see it really catching on.
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
Sundance TV's 'State of the Union' is a 10-ish minute per episode drama that got a fair amount of acclaim and just won the Short Form Emmy, so it definitely can be done. There's also stuff like High Maintenance, which worked really well when it was a short form series on Vimeo. I mean, there were people doubtful that a 30 minute drama could work and now there's a bunch of them. Attention spans shrink!



Hm. "That episode did NOT need to be 50 minutes" is one of the most common complaints I see these days. I'm even noticing it from myself - whenever I see, say, Succession going 60+ minutes, even though I think it's a generally well crafted and enjoyable show, I groan a little bit and think to myself "Really?".



I've always thought that a lot of shorter series seemed like movies that they couldn't get feature funding for, so they stretched out the story and pitched it as a TV show instead. I suppose features being made on a TV budget and then getting chopped up into episodes makes about as much sense.



If enough people are watching short form stuff (which they already are on YouTube, etc. as you mentioned), then I could see a genuine demand for more high quality stuff in that space. They have a lot of talented people on board Quibi, so there could be some great stuff coming out of it. If the price is right (and if they expand beyond phones) I could see it really catching on.
State of the Union may have critical acclaim, but I think the vast majority of people don't know it (or Sundance TV) exists, it isn't exactly getting a ton of eyeballs. Now granted, you don't need viewers when you have critical acclaim, that is sort of the alternate path to success and continued existence in this industry. But I don't think that is something any show can count on. Quibi is trying to push this entire short form medium in a very public way that requires people to pay attention and watch. Maybe one would be emmy winning too, but even then, that's just one. I just can't see it happening. I mean, I guess we'll see, but I'm highly skeptical.

People do like certain short form things, but it tends to not be scripted drama. The vast majority of videos that people consume on YouTube tend to be "Influencer" content, funny videos, music, trailers and clips for/from longer form media, and random videos of reality. And, as DanGo said, it's all free. If YouTube charged for all this I don't think very many people would be "in" for it at all. Part of the appeal is the fact it doesn't cost anything.

As far as episode length goes. People say that when it comes to bad or mediocre shows that don't know how to fill the hour. But there's plenty of shows where people "just can't get enough." I think the great advantage we've seen in the last few years with cable and streaming is variable episode lengths in a given series that can range from the more traditional ~42 - 70+ and everything in between.

And yes, it is true that a lot of limited series do come about from features that didn't get greenlit, but that necessary expansion can go both ways. Like all shows, it's entirely on the creative team whether it gets better or worse. For example, the excellent Godless on Netflix. I'd rather that than forcing things into 10 minute formats where you need to go back in and invent climaxes each week that maybe didn't naturally fall every 10 minutes in your script.
 

Deleted member 5853

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,725
"SEAL Team" showrunner leaves after CBS investigates him for undisclosed allegations
SEAL Team is losing a member behind the scenes: Showrunner John Glenn is exiting the CBS drama ahead of the upcoming Season 3 after producer CBS TV Studios conducted an investigation into claims made against him, according to The Hollywood Reporter.

Glenn's overall deal with the production company has also been terminated. The claims investigated were not of a sexual nature, according to sources.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,016
...I do see people complaining about longer seasons now, but not longer episodes. People were more than happy with the 60+ minute GoT episodes, for example. And if anything more and more shows have trended in -that- direction as most programming now doesn't have to accommodate for commercial breaks and the ~42 mins that locks you into...
I've seen people complaining about both longer seasons and longer episodes. The Marvel shows on Netflix are a great example. While 42 mins can be restricting, just because the makers have the freedom to go beyond that doesn't mean that they should stretch things out. I often see hour long episodes of things that could have been 5-10 mins shorter and better because of it. With GoT people were happy to hear about the longer eps because they had already been told to expect fewer eps than they hoped for. The final two seasons were 13 eps instead of 20. It's GoT though, and everyone loved it at that time, so even if they had regular season lengths most would take longer eps, but that's because GoT had enough story and characters to fill the time. Many shows don't.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
The difference between HBO and Netflix episode length is that HBO let them run as long as they need creatively whereas Netflix actively encourages longer episodes because they want more content. Stuff that should be cut gets left in. All the Marvel Netflix shows were three hours too long and you could tell when they were stretching for time. They've gotten a little better with it, aiming for more uniform times on some shows and getting comfortable with 30 minute-ish runtimes.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,211
The difference between HBO and Netflix episode length is that HBO let them run as long as they need creatively whereas Netflix actively encourages longer episodes because they want more content. Stuff that should be cut gets left in. All the Marvel Netflix shows were three hours too long and you could tell when they were stretching for time. They've gotten a little better with it, aiming for more uniform times on some shows and getting comfortable with 30 minute-ish runtimes.

How so? I can see them wanting more episodes but it's hard to see what value more minutes in a specific episode gets Netflix.
 

G_Shumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,162
Cleveland, OH
Tuesday night's ratings. Part 1 of The Finals on last night's "America's Got Talent" on NBC scored an average of 1.5 in the 18-49 demo, with an average total of 9.73 million viewers. This is way down from last year (2.3 in the 18-49 demo, and 12.99 million viewers), but it still easily won the night:

Fast-Demo-2019-Sep-17-TUE.png
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
How so? I can see them wanting more episodes but it's hard to see what value more minutes in a specific episode gets Netflix.
More episodes and more runtime is more or less the same to them (other than things like contractual delivery of X episodes from the production company of course). They just want you watching as long as possible, investing in their ecosystem, there's no scheduling or making space for advertisers.
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
I've seen people complaining about both longer seasons and longer episodes. The Marvel shows on Netflix are a great example. While 42 mins can be restricting, just because the makers have the freedom to go beyond that doesn't mean that they should stretch things out. I often see hour long episodes of things that could have been 5-10 mins shorter and better because of it. With GoT people were happy to hear about the longer eps because they had already been told to expect fewer eps than they hoped for. The final two seasons were 13 eps instead of 20. It's GoT though, and everyone loved it at that time, so even if they had regular season lengths most would take longer eps, but that's because GoT had enough story and characters to fill the time. Many shows don't.
Everything should be allowed to be as long as required.

The Marvel Netflix show problem (which almost no other show has, at least to the extent they do) came about thanks to contracts that mandated a specific amount of episodes combined with creatives for some reason deciding that the season could only tell one story. They might be the worst paced TV series I've ever watched. Pure slogs that occasionally had decent action sequences.

Also keep in mind everything used to be 22ish episode seasons, so even at 42 mins an episode there used to be a lot more content per season than there is now. I don't think people want less, but cable and streamers with their smaller episode orders that are fully or mostly written before shooting begins allows the creatives to better hone the story and scripts of the season, usually resulting in higher quality on all fronts. And people do seem to enjoy that considering how many people completely ignore what the networks are doing now unless it's utilizing some sort of superhero IP, instead choosing to watch things on streamers following the new model.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,211
More episodes and more runtime is more or less the same to them (other than things like contractual delivery of X episodes from the production company of course). They just want you watching as long as possible, investing in their ecosystem, there's no scheduling or making space for advertisers.

Unless there is a quote saying otherwise I kind of doubt Netflix cares much about 10 minutes of episode as long as they stay within budget.

I suspect the issue is more that Netflix gives too much flexibility for full creative control and show runners aren't particularly ruthless about editing their own content if there is no studio pushback (ie FX letting Kurt Sutter pad episodes of Sons of Anarchy to ludicrous proportions during the last few seasons).
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,016
Everything should be allowed to be as long as required.

The Marvel Netflix show problem (which almost no other show has, at least to the extent they do) came about thanks to contracts that mandated a specific amount of episodes combined with creatives for some reason deciding that the season could only tell one story. They might be the worst paced TV series I've ever watched. Pure slogs that occasionally had decent action sequences.

Also keep in mind everything used to be 22ish episode seasons, so even at 42 mins an episode there used to be a lot more content per season than there is now. I don't think people want less, but cable and streamers with their smaller episode orders that are fully or mostly written before shooting begins allows the creatives to better hone the story and scripts of the season, usually resulting in higher quality on all fronts. And people do seem to enjoy that considering how many people completely ignore what the networks are doing now unless it's utilizing some sort of superhero IP, instead choosing to watch things on streamers following the new model.
22 eps leads to filler of a different kind. You get a bunch of procedural crime/monster of the week which don't advance the main story at all, and there's inevitably one or more eps that look like they exist to let the crew catch up on their schedule, you know where the ep is half flashback, or all happens in one set. Not saying that's bad, I'll take more eps of Supernatural over less for instance.

It's great that creatives have flexibility, but they should also remember just because their episodes can be longer, doesn't mean they have to be, or should be. Less is more, as they say. There's times I'm watching such shows and I know the character is going to location X, and I don't need to see their car pull up at the location, and see them walk down the hall, and see them walk up the stairs toward the apartment, I get it, I know where you're going. Use your edit power.

When you get into what people want, I think you're treading into causation/correlation territory. I think the #1 reason people like Netfix over cable is the price. I know plenty of people who'll binge watch some new show on Netflix which turns out to be crap (I-sland...) while not seeing some great shows from other sources because they only have Netflix.
 

Cornballer

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,261
The Breaking Bad movie "El Camino" is going to premiere Oct 11th in theaters (single night) to coincide with the Netflix release. I made a thread here.

There's also a lengthy THR feature on the movie which includes lots of Gilligan discussion about what he's been doing and what's next. Worth a look.
In 2010, Breaking Bad was at a crossroads: With the show averaging about 1.5 million viewers a season despite being a critics' darling, AMC informed Sony and Gilligan that the series could end with season three. When Sony began shopping Breaking Bad to competitors — quickly finding a taker for two more seasons at FX — AMC reversed course. Netflix, meanwhile, was aggressively licensing shows for its nascent streaming service, and content chief Ted Sarandos made a syndication deal with Sony for Breaking Bad. Originally, the arrangement was for the series to start streaming on Netflix after its fourth season finished on AMC, but, with the show's future uncertain, Sony accelerated the plan, and new fans began discovering and bingeing Breaking Bad on Netflix in time to catch some of the fourth season and all of the fifth and final season on AMC. When season five premiered in 2013, the audience had more than doubled from its previous outing. "We felt that it was a virtuous cycle, where we were introducing the show to new fans, who were then going and experiencing new episodes on AMC, and then when we would launch a new season, we would again see another wave of new folks coming," says Netflix vp original content Cindy Holland. Since news of the movie broke in August, Holland says, viewership of Breaking Bad on Netflix is up, some from rewatchers and some from newcomers to the series. "We were a natural home for the movie," Holland says. "It wasn't a really long conversation. It was a simple, 'Yes, please.' "
Breaking Bad was particularly cinematic television, with its wide-angle shots of the stark New Mexico landscape, expressive lighting and deliberate pacing. At one point during the series, Gilligan and his cinematographer, Michael Slovis, made an unsuccessful pitch to Sony and AMC to shoot Breaking Bad in the CinemaScope format that Sergio Leone had used to shoot Clint Eastwood's Dollars Trilogy. On El Camino, Gilligan got his wish — Better Caul Saul DP Marshall Adams shot the movie on the ARRI Alexa 65 camera used for The Revenant and in a 2.39 wide-screen format that seems designed to showcase a gunslinger's squint across the desert.
 
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ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Unless there is a quote saying otherwise I kind of doubt Netflix cares much about 10 minutes of episode as long as they stay within budget.

I suspect the issue is more that Netflix gives too much flexibility for full creative control and show runners aren't particularly ruthless about editing their own content if there is no studio pushback (ie FX letting Kurt Sutter pad episodes of Sons of Anarchy to ludicrous proportions during the last few seasons).
I don't have a quote on me but I know it's been mentioned before that Netflix likes length. I think we discussed it in this thread a few years back? It has nothing to do with budget, every TV show shoots more than they use that's cut anyway.

The showrunner thing is definitely true, but I think there's a difference between "you can go long" (cable) and "we want you to go long" (Netflix). Because it's definitely disproportionately a Netflix issue, and I don't think they give complete creative control by any stretch. They're not hands off, just in episode length.
 

TDLink

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
22 eps leads to filler of a different kind. You get a bunch of procedural crime/monster of the week which don't advance the main story at all, and there's inevitably one or more eps that look like they exist to let the crew catch up on their schedule, you know where the ep is half flashback, or all happens in one set. Not saying that's bad, I'll take more eps of Supernatural over less for instance.

It's great that creatives have flexibility, but they should also remember just because their episodes can be longer, doesn't mean they have to be, or should be. Less is more, as they say. There's times I'm watching such shows and I know the character is going to location X, and I don't need to see their car pull up at the location, and see them walk down the hall, and see them walk up the stairs toward the apartment, I get it, I know where you're going. Use your edit power.

When you get into what people want, I think you're treading into causation/correlation territory. I think the #1 reason people like Netfix over cable is the price. I know plenty of people who'll binge watch some new show on Netflix which turns out to be crap (I-sland...) while not seeing some great shows from other sources because they only have Netflix.
The more procedural "monster of the week" format existed and was used because that is how the vast majority of TV was always made. Some people quite like that format anyways, and it's not like it's a negative. Those Marvel Netflix shows could have stood to have a few episodes like that, for example. But completely serialized storytelling was still being toyed with on Network and has now become the predominant form of television on cable and streaming. There's no reason it can't work at 22 episodes also, just instead of saving the major revelation you planned as the end of season 1 for ep 22, you do it half way through and do your season 2 plan as the back half. Of course, many season 1s on Network have already sort of done this when they know they get their initial 13 episode order and then get a back 9. Good creators, and the best shows, adapt to what they're given.

More than the quantity of episodes, the quantity of time (especially when writing is essentially racing production and are only ahead by 3-4 episodes) is really what tends to create weird fluctuations in a network show's quality. But in that process, everyone knows not every episode is going to be an A+ one. And even in "Monster of the Week" episodes or "Bottle Episodes", if the characters are strong they usually create some very memorable and great episodes that may never have seen the light of day if everything was entirely focused on moving the main narrative along. A great one, as an example, that stands out is "White Tulip" from FRINGE.

My mantra is always going to be that each episode of the show should be exactly as long as it needs to be. I'm very against mandated lengths, whether that be 60 mins, 42 mins, or 10 mins. With that said, and getting back to the root of this discussion, I have a hard time believing that a satisfying scripted drama episode can be effectively told in only 10 minutes on a weekly basis, or that there are a large number of people interested in paying for a service exclusively for that.
 

DanGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,742
I know Netflix had mandated minimum episode lengths for the Marvel shows. I would suspect most of their shows have a minimum required length, but a lot of creators take the opportunity to be self-indulgent and avoid necessary fat trimming, hence all the bloated episodes in a lot of Netflix stuff. Oh man, I just had a thought: what would Kurt Sutter do with even less restraints than he's had on FX?

A great one, as an example, that stands out is "White Tulip" from FRINGE.
Hell yeah, that was a fantastic episode of television.
 
Nov 1, 2017
3,201
Ah yes, the episode lengths on Quibi will finally allow millennials to spend less time streaming shows, something they are notoriously very vocal about wanting
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
2,361
I know Netflix had mandated minimum episode lengths for the Marvel shows. I would suspect most of their shows have a minimum required length, but a lot of creators take the opportunity to be self-indulgent and avoid necessary fat trimming, hence all the bloated episodes in a lot of Netflix stuff. Oh man, I just had a thought: what would Kurt Sutter do with even less restraints than he's had on FX?


Hell yeah, that was a fantastic episode of television.
Wasnt it Disney/Marvel that mandated it?

I recall reading one of the sticking points of the shows being cancelled was Netflix wanting shorter seasons and to pay less for them and disney/marvel not wanting to budge and wanting to be paid the same no matter if they shortened them.

Unless I'm not remembering that correctly.
 

DanGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,742
Wasnt it Disney/Marvel that mandated it?

I recall reading one of the sticking points of the shows being cancelled was Netflix wanting shorter seasons and to pay less for them and disney/marvel not wanting to budge and wanting to be paid the same no matter if they shortened them.

Unless I'm not remembering that correctly.
You're talking about the number of episodes. I was referring to the length of the episodes themselves.
 

G_Shumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,162
Cleveland, OH
Wednesday night's ratings. The second part (and season finale) of The Finals on last night's "America's Got Talent" on NBC scored an average of 1.5 in the 18-49 demo, with an average total of 10.08 million viewers. This is, again, way down from last year (2.1 in the 18-49 demo, and 12.88 million viewers), but it is still really good since it won the overall night again. And hopefully it gave some traction for "A Little Late with Lilly Singh" (which regularly airs at 1:30 am ET, yikes) but it looks like it didn't retain the AGT audience at all:

Fast-Demo-2019-Sep-18-WED.png
 

Naijaboy

The Fallen
Mar 13, 2018
15,293

source.gif


And just as many seasons as the original show it was based on. Nice.

I just found out that they cancelled the big pile of shit that Quantico was. What a terrible fucking show, Priyanka is a terrible actress.

At the very least, I respect the showrunners for taking on Hindu nationalism in one episode. Season 3 was an odd but straightforward one. Too bad the weight of the overall plot crushed it.
 

Deleted member 5853

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,725
"sacred games" S2 is some good television.

I'm really enjoying it, but it's a shame no one on American review sites bothers to pay much attention to it.
 

TheNatureBoy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
10,817
Although I felt it could have run longer, I'm glad to see GLOW will get a proper send-off and won't end on a cliff-hanger. Has easily been one of my favorite Netflix series.
 
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