2018-19 Season TV Cancellations/Pilots: Syfy banishes show to the Phantom Zone

TDLink

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Oct 25, 2017
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I generally agree with the points you made, i'd just add that the deuce, big little lies to me are in the same ball park of the netflix series i mentioned, very good shows, just less in quantity than the originals that netflix offers.

I see you painting a super optimistic picture of amazons and hbo's new productions, which is fair but i think you're underestimating future netflix projects...like the witcher series, the sandman adaptation, the mark millar projects, one hundred years of solitude series, the many videogame adaptations, dragons dogma, dmc and diablo animated series, resident evil live action stuff, the narnia show, the del toro's horror anthology, etc...

Im sure that some or even many can suck but if one or two hit the sweet spot, its a success for them, i think.
I think Netflix has some great projects on their slate, but there's a reason I'm more worried about all of them versus if they were setup at HBO or Amazon. Could The Witcher be great? Yes. Does that trailer they put out have me worried it's going to suffer from Netflix's smaller coffers? Also yes. And I have the same skeptic optimism about the rest of those things you mentioned (and some you didn't, like Cowboy Bebop). Even Netflix's more expensive shows (like, say, Altered Carbon or Lost in Space) suffer big time in the quality department imo (they're sort of like Syfy shows that look like premium cable shows).

I truly don't see how the current HBO lineup is better than Netflix. Euphoria and Chernobyl are probably my top 2 shows of the year but I think we really have to wait and see how the rest of that lineup turns out.

Netflix has so much more diversity that even if the very top of HBO is better than the top of Netflix, they have a ton of great shows to compensate.

I'm excited to see what that extra money HBO is pumping out leads to though
Right, that has been Netflix's MO from the beginning with their shotgun approach. But as HBO ramps up quantity as well (with Max), while assumedly maintaining quality, it is going to be less of a compelling plus for Netflix.



Disney+ has like five new series to come in the next year, only.

Netflix has more shows coming than the others mentioned combined, they'll have more misses and probably more strikes, that's the strategy.
Yes, but the question is will Netflix's highest highs actually equal their competitors' in both quantity and quality? My vote would be: unlikely.

Either way, just looking at the pure numbers is a bit of an unfair comparison since HBO and Amazon (and Disney) are all really focusing on English-language (or predominantly English-language) programming, while Netflix grabs and co-produces shows from all sorts of countries in all sorts of languages.
 

RatskyWatsky

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I think people vastly overestimate the importance of Quality (that's with a capital 'Q' - shows on the level of The Wire, Mad Men, Deadwood, etc which are few and far between let's be honest) - when the vast majority of people are more than happy with the level of quality that Netflix puts out. People are like "well not every show has to be Quality" but I would argue that not any show has to be - it's nice when an all time great level show springs up, but it's not like that's what's driving the Peak TV boom. This is a conundrum TV execs and critics invented so they could have something to freak out over w/r/t the streaming wars when the average person could not care less.

What matters more than quality is resonance - is the show resonating with an audience? 13 Reasons Why is a show people want to watch - does it matter that it's not going to go on the Mount Rushmore of Television? Netflix was smart in pursuing deals with Shonda Rhimes and Ryan Murphy because they're actually skilled at making shows people want to watch. David Simon who?

If anything, Netflix's biggest problem is that they don't seem to care about giving any but their biggest shows proper endings - something true of HBO and most other networks, but Netflix does it at such a high rate that a narrative has formed about them "cancelling everything", which I feel could harm them in the long run.
 

Jarmusch

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think Netflix has some great projects on their slate, but there's a reason I'm more worried about all of them versus if they were setup at HBO or Amazon. Could The Witcher be great? Yes. Does that trailer they put out have me worried it's going to suffer from Netflix's smaller coffers? Also yes. And I have the same skeptic optimism about the rest of those things you mentioned (and some you didn't, like Cowboy Bebop). Even Netflix's more expensive shows (like, say, Altered Carbon or Lost in Space) suffer big time in the quality department imo (they're sort of like Syfy shows that look like premium cable shows).


Right, that has been Netflix's MO from the beginning with their shotgun approach. But as HBO ramps up quantity as well (with Max), while assumedly maintaining quality, it is going to be less of a compelling plus for Netflix.

Yes, but the question is will Netflix's highest highs actually equal their competitors' in both quantity and quality? My vote would be: unlikely.

Either way, just looking at the pure numbers is a bit of an unfair comparison since HBO and Amazon (and Disney) are all really focusing on English-language (or predominantly English-language) programming, while Netflix grabs and co-produces shows from all sorts of countries in all sorts of languages.

So, first you wrote that netflix would be in trouble, now it's the metascore that matters? I only replied that netflix isnt and will not be in trouble cause they have more original programming that reaches a wider and deeper net of people. No need to enter too much in the realm of rankings, cause that shit doesnt matter to start with. You're in better position to succeed having 10 B shows than 2 A tier shows, case closed. Netflix does aim to to give more or better prestige shows than hbo or amazon, they aim to give something to everyone - from the soccer mom to the art snob.

Also, something i havent mentioned at all and that matters is how much better netflix ui is relative to their rivals, it's just not even a conversation. Easier for toddlers and old folks to use, works better, looks better.
 

TDLink

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think people vastly overestimate the importance of Quality (that's with a capital 'Q' - shows on the level of The Wire, Mad Men, Deadwood, etc which are few and far between let's be honest) - when the vast majority of people are more than happy with the level of quality that Netflix puts out. People are like "well not every show has to be Quality" but I would argue that not any show has to be - it's nice when an all time great level show springs up, but it's not like that's what's driving the Peak TV boom. This is a conundrum TV execs and critics invented so they could have something to freak out over w/r/t the streaming wars when the average person could not care less.

What matters more than quality is resonance - is the show resonating with an audience? 13 Reasons Why is a show people want to watch - does it matter that it's not going to go on the Mount Rushmore of Television? Netflix was smart in pursuing deals with Shonda Rhimes and Ryan Murphy because they're actually skilled at making shows people want to watch. David Simon who?

If anything, Netflix's biggest problem is that they don't seem to care about giving any but their biggest shows proper endings - something true of HBO and most other networks, but Netflix does it at such a high rate that a narrative has formed about them "cancelling everything", which I feel could harm them in the long run.
You're ultimately not wrong (even if it pains me that you aren't). But I do think if the quality of the others is maintained as they up the quantity, it will make their offerings stand out more than Netflix's -- especially compounded with the other issues the competitors are bringing (including Netflix's loss of content that is not their own).

I agree resonance is key, and the big expensive genre stuff HBO and Amazon are doing (as well as the big Star Wars and Marvel stuff that Disney is doing) is going to resonate and stand out (just like Game of Thrones has) more than the average Netflix show. Especially when Netflix shows come and go so quickly exactly due to the binge model + having to make marketing room for the next show.
 

TDLink

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Oct 25, 2017
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So, first you wrote that netflix would be in trouble, now it's the metascore that matters? I only replied that netflix isnt and will not be in trouble cause they have more original programming that reaches a wider and deeper net of people. No need to enter too much in the realm of rankings, cause that shit doesnt matter to start with. You're in better position to succeed having 10 B shows than 2 A tier shows, case closed. Netflix does aim to to give more or better prestige shows than hbo or amazon, they aim to give something to everyone - from the soccer mom to the art snob.

Also, something i havent mentioned at all and that matters is how much better netflix ui is relative to their rivals, it's just not even a conversation. Easier for toddlers and old folks to use, works better, looks better.
When did I mention the metascore?

We're talking about a few different things here. I think Netflix is going to be in trouble in the next few years due to multiple factors linked to these new competitors.

The quantity over quality approach they take with their original content is only one issue we have recently been individually talking about. And if it was the only issue they wouldn't really have a problem long term.
 

Jarmusch

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Oct 25, 2017
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You're ultimately not wrong (even if it pains me that you aren't). But I do think if the quality of the others is maintained as they up the quantity, it will make their offerings stand out more than Netflix's -- especially compounded with the other issues the competitors are bringing (including Netflix's loss of content that is not their own).

I agree resonance is key, and the big expensive genre stuff HBO and Amazon are doing (as well as the big Star Wars and Marvel stuff that Disney is doing) is going to resonate and stand out (just like Game of Thrones has) more than the average Netflix show. Especially when Netflix shows come and go so quickly exactly due to the binge model + having to make marketing room for the next show.
im sure people will be tripping over themselves to watch the freaking mandalorian, or the wheels of time written by a former survivor contestant. You've a bone to pick with netflix for whatever reason, and that clouds your judgement, it's ok, i understand. let's agree to disagree and move on
 

TDLink

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Oct 25, 2017
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Am I the only one watching Wu Assassins?
I caught the first episode. Fights were decent but I thought overall it was pretty bad. And a great example of the larger discussion we've been having for this last page or show. It also premiered the same day as season 3 of GLOW (which I think is better) -- and both are probably going to be quickly forgotten in a week for better or worse.

im sure people will be tripping over themselves to watch the freaking mandalorian, or the wheels of time written by a former survivor contestant. You've a bone to pick with netflix for whatever reason, and that clouds your judgement, it's ok, i understand. let's agree to disagree and move on
/shrug if that's how you want to read the situation, okay. I absolutely think the Mandalorian is going to be a big hit for Disney so I don't know why you are being sarcastic about that. And I don't really have a bone to pick with Netflix at all. I have a sub and am going to continue to for the forseeable future. Like I said before, I enjoy a fair amount of their content. I just also think that eventually (ie, 5ish years from now) they're going to be much less of a player than they currently are, because of these new players about to come on to the scene.

There's no emotion behind my words or desire to see Netflix fail. It's all just the way I see things going.
 

Jarmusch

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Oct 25, 2017
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I caught the first episode. Fights were decent but I thought overall it was pretty bad. And a great example of the larger discussion we've been having for this last page or show. It also premiered the same day as season 3 of GLOW (which I think is better) -- and both are probably going to be quickly forgotten in a week for better or worse.


/shrug if that's how you want to read the situation, okay. I absolutely think the Mandalorian is going to be a big hit for Disney so I don't know why you are being sarcastic about that. And I don't really have a bone to pick with Netflix at all. I have a sub and am going to continue to for the forseeable future. Like I said before, I enjoy a fair amount of their content. I just also think that eventually (ie, 5ish years from now) they're going to be much less of a player than they currently are, because of these new players about to come on to the scene.

There's no emotion behind my words or desire to see Netflix fail. It's all just the way I see things going.
i mean you're wrong and you wont even understand why even after i mentioned a million times that netflix has no peer outside of the us, so much that they even have local shows of high quality and ratings being made, the us market will always be more divise just by the sheer number of options available. In europe you have netflix, amazon and hbo go. Hbo and amazon are way cheaper and have way less content, god knows how long til disney + actually gets to all the european markets. The hulu thing isnt possible in Europe, and that's that, warner bros stuff and amc stuff is almost all on netflix here

Im sure that just like rogue one and solo, the mandalorian will be a huge success for disney, i mean im sure it will have huge viewing numbers by virtue of being the only original content disney plus will have at launch but other than that, ill wait and see the long lasting impact of the series.

Also, i have all of amazon, hbo and netflix but as an european it really isnt even a contest, shame you have a narrow hollywood view of these services
 
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TDLink

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Oct 25, 2017
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i mean you're wrong and you wont even understand why even after i mentioned a million times that netflix has no peer outside of the us, so much that they even have local shows of high quality and ratings being made, the us market will always be more divise just by the sheer number of options available. In europe you have netflix, amazon and hbo go. Hbo and amazon are way cheaper and have way less content, god knows how long til disney + actually gets to all the european markets. The hulu thing isnt possible in Europe, and that's that, warner bros stuff and amc stuff is almost all on netflix here

Im sure that just like rogue one and solo, the mandalorian will be a huge success for disney, i mean im sure it will have huge viewing numbers by virtue of being the only original content disney plus will have at launch but other than that, ill wait and see the long lasting impact of the series.

Also, i have all of amazon, hbo and netflix but as an european it really isnt even a contest, shame you have a narrow hollywood view of these services
I understand what you're saying, and admitted they have the international advantage on the last page. From the get go I was talking about this from an American perspective, of course, because that is where all of these companies and services are based and largely where the decisions are made in this industry.

Netflix is going to remain stronger internationally over the others (again, like I said before) because they're actually investing in that type of content. That's a good thing. At the end of everything though, it isn't about what these services currently offer. It's about what the landscape is going to be several years from now and how it's going to change.

I can't speak to Europe's situation. If Disney and HBO Max take longer to roll out there, then naturally things will be different there. But, for example, Netflix having the Warners stuff is going to be an issue they have to contend with eventually, just like here in the States, as HBO Max enters the market and undoubtedly reclaims it.
 

Captjohnboyd

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Oct 25, 2017
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i mean you're wrong and you wont even understand why even after i mentioned a million times that netflix has no peer outside of the us, so much that they even have local shows of high quality and ratings being made, the us market will always be more divise just by the sheer number of options available. In europe you have netflix, amazon and hbo go. Hbo and amazon are way cheaper and have way less content, god knows how long til disney + actually gets to all the european markets. The hulu thing isnt possible in Europe, and that's that, warner bros stuff and amc stuff is almost all on netflix here

Im sure that just like rogue one and solo, the mandalorian will be a huge success for disney, i mean im sure it will have huge viewing numbers by virtue of being the only original content disney plus will have at launch but other than that, ill wait and see the long lasting impact of the series.

Also, i have all of amazon, hbo and netflix but as an european it really isnt even a contest, shame you have a narrow hollywood view of these services
I don't even think his assessment from a "Hollywood" perspective is correct. The fact is this discussion has been had over days and there hasn't really been a compelling argument made as to why Netflix is in danger in the US either
 

Jarmusch

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Oct 25, 2017
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not an issue outside the states, also yeah, the future landscape...thats why netflix is creating content left and right, to have little dependence on licensing. Thats a good move.

Just to finish, im pretty sure that netflix strategy is way less reliant on the us market, as it should cause its a pretty fragmented one as of now
 

Jarmusch

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Oct 25, 2017
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I don't even think his assessment from a "Hollywood" perspective is correct. The fact is this discussion has been had over days and there hasn't really been a compelling argument made as to why Netflix is in danger in the US either
i know but im giving him that one for free. The narrative exists because of their latest quarter earnings, its just your regular doom and gloom thing.
 

TDLink

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Oct 25, 2017
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I really don't want Netflix to fail. It would not bring me any sort of joy. It's just something I expect to happen eventually given the shifts happening in the industry. I think at the absolute least we are going to see the service negatively affected by HBO Max, Disney+, and Amazon over the next couple of years (as well as some other competitors like the NBCU OTT).

I believe I laid out why I think this is going to happen multiple times over the last few days -- there's more than one particular reason. However, I'm not really attempting to "win" a debate or anything here. It's okay for us to disagree. Just talking about where I see the industry going, and I know for a fact I'm not alone in this industry, even if other people see it differently. But that's okay. We'll see what happens. There's not really much else for me to say on the matter (especially since we're talking about the future) until we're further into the future.
 

vhoanox

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No one will kill Netflix, its too big now and available on every corners around the world.
The big problem is they are spending billions to make up for all the loss contents. By sacrifice profit for fast gaining new sups, can they keep doing it forever?
I know Stranger Things is popular but can it still relevant 20 years from now like Friends, The Office ... or still going strong like Grey's Anatomy after 16 years. The 3 seasons and done strategy will be put in the big test upcoming years.
 

Jarmusch

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Oct 25, 2017
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No one will kill Netflix, its too big now and available on every corners around the world.
The big problem is they are spending billions to make up for all the loss contents. By sacrifice profit for fast gaining new sups, can they keep doing it forever?
I know Stranger Things is popular but can it still relevant 20 years from now like Friends, The Office ... or still going strong like Grey's Anatomy after 16 years. The 3 seasons and done strategy will be put in the big test upcoming years.
guess they payed those huge bucks to shonda for a reason
 

RatskyWatsky

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I agree resonance is key, and the big expensive genre stuff HBO and Amazon are doing (as well as the big Star Wars and Marvel stuff that Disney is doing) is going to resonate and stand out (just like Game of Thrones has) more than the average Netflix show. Especially when Netflix shows come and go so quickly exactly due to the binge model + having to make marketing room for the next show.
Netflix is doing big genre stuff too (Avatar: TLA, Narnia) and if the stuff from Amazon and Disney really catches on, I wouldn't be surprised if Netflix increased their output in that space. They don't have to chain themselves to their current strategy!
 

Jarmusch

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Netflix is doing big genre stuff too (Avatar: TLA, Narnia) and if the stuff from Amazon and Disney really catches on, I wouldn't be surprised if Netflix increased their output in that space. They don't have to chain themselves to their current strategy!
The sandman show will have a crazy budget as well, the witcher does exist, as does the cowboy bebop show, and the resident evil one, among many others.

Look, they might all suck balls but looking at the showrunners of the new hbo and amazon fantasy and sci fi stuff, im not exactly sure they'll be great. Some will, probably, but i give the same benefit of the doubt to the netflix upcoming shows. Also, not so great shows can ressonate, while some great ones dont.

Case in point, im very skeptical of the witcher show but there's some serious interest on it, the trailer has 18 million views in 3 weeks
 

TDLink

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Oct 25, 2017
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Netflix is doing big genre stuff too (Avatar: TLA, Narnia) and if the stuff from Amazon and Disney really catches on, I wouldn't be surprised if Netflix increased their output in that space. They don't have to chain themselves to their current strategy!
The sandman show will have a crazy budget as well, the witcher does exist, as does the cowboy bebop show, and the resident evil one, among many others.

Look, they might all suck balls but looking at the showrunners of the new hbo and amazon fantasy and sci fi stuff, im not exactly sure they'll be great. Some will, probably, but i give the same benefit of the doubt to the netflix upcoming shows. Also, not so great shows can ressonate, while some great ones dont.

Case in point, im very skeptical of the witcher show but there's some serious interest on it, the trailer has 18 million views in 3 weeks
I agree, though a lot of them are going to be compared unfavorably to existing iterations of that IP (be it games or past movies or shows). For example, no matter how good Bebop is (and I am very much looking forward to it), it's going to be hard to shake the comparison to the original. Same with Avatar: TLA. Narnia also feels potentially over-trodden and the last film versions were discontinued. What makes me the most skeptical is that while Netflix is spending on some of these, their wallet isn't as large as the others -- and The Witcher didn't give me a great first impression. Plus Netflix has the constant "gone from casual conversation after one weekend until next season" problem. But we'll definitely see what happens. It's very likely -something- they do is going to stand out big time.
 

akasper

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Apr 9, 2019
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I love Scoot McNairy


edit: how do you quote from an article?
 

mjc

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Oct 25, 2017
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Netflix is doing big genre stuff too (Avatar: TLA, Narnia) and if the stuff from Amazon and Disney really catches on, I wouldn't be surprised if Netflix increased their output in that space. They don't have to chain themselves to their current strategy!
I forgot entirely about the Avatar TLA show they announced. I wonder how that's going.
 

torre_avenue

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Oct 25, 2017
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Behind you.
"Chrisley Knows Best" stars indicted for 12 counts of Federal Tax Fraud.
A federal grand jury in Atlanta on Tuesday indicted reality television star Todd Chrisley on tax evasion and other charges.
The 12-count indictment issued against the Chrisley Knows Best star and his wife, Julie, also includes charges of wire fraud, conspiracy to commit bank fraud and conspiracy to defraud the United States, U.S. Attorney Byung J. "BJay" Pak said at a news conference.
 

Chitown B

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Nov 15, 2017
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it's sad going down this list and counting 14 red X's for shows I watch.

 

Curler

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Oct 26, 2017
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it's sad going down this list and counting 14 red X's for shows I watch.

I can't believe how much is ending within a year... So many long and notible shows. I'm fine with it though, I always have a backlog.

Lots of stuff on there seems outdated/missing, though.
 

Rhaknar

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Oct 26, 2017
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Mindhunter hype!

Yes yes Netflix bad is all the rage, but that scene in the last episode of Season 1 was one of my favorite scenes in anything...ever, so fight me!
 

tucah

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Oct 25, 2017
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I never did watch the first season of Mindhunter (well, finish, I watched at least an episode or two), it's on my list somewhere.
 

Auros01

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Nov 17, 2017
1,877
it's sad going down this list and counting 14 red X's for shows I watch.

I was fairly excited to go through this list but then I realized Cloak and Dagger is nowhere to be found (even though it was on the list in previous years). Ugh.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,255

torre_avenue

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Oct 25, 2017
8,078
Behind you.
Sacha Baron Cohen's "The Spy" will debut on Netflix Sept. 6.
The six-episode series, set to premiere worldwide on Netflix on Sept. 6, is a fairly rare dramatic turn for Cohen (Who Is America?), who plays real-life Israeli spy Eli Cohen, who ran a successful undercover operation in Syria in the 1960s. The series was created by Gideon Raff, whose Israeli drama Prisoners of War is the source material for Showtime's Homeland.

While living in Damascus in the early '60s, Eli Cohen became close enough to ambitious military leaders and their wealthy friends to earn a game-changing level of trust and information about Syria's secret anti-Israel activities.


 

RatskyWatsky

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Oct 25, 2017
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SACRED GAMES SEASON 2 IS OUT NOW.

WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME ABOUT THIS.

YOU HAVE FAILED ME TV-ERA.