2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | and now we're throwing binders

Oct 25, 2017
444
I know Kamalas record as AG in California is a cause for concern.

But holy shit, if I am not leaning towards supporting her. Every time I’ve seen her speak, she speaks very well and seems intelligent.

Plus, I know that she would beat the fuck out of trump during debates.
 
Oct 25, 2017
859
keep dancing


nah, still trash either way you spin it. At this point black people should not show any empathy for this bs, am done with it.
If people don't ask questions about racism when they don't understand it, how do you expect them to learn? how are ignorant white americans supposed to learn about why their views and stances are problematic?

There is a line between ignorance and bigotry. The two are not the same. Booker is right, if someone doesn't understand blackface, you explain it to them. Not shame them.

Education is the enemy of ignorance, not public shaming.

Partaking in blackface is a different matter.
 
Oct 25, 2017
733
Osaka
Why isn't Jay Inslee more popular? I'm trying to find something bad about him, but most of his policies seem progressive and he's willing to put climate change as his number one issue. I mean, we're talking about a timetable of years--not decades.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,035
Margalized people have done nothing but show empathy, when do they get a chance to process their pain? Cause these fuckups come daily and the wrong doer is always opening discussions on how they were the one wronged and everyone needs to come together and give them a medal for being a bigot. When do LGBTQ, Black, Brown, Asian, etc get some of this infinity Empathy?

Better yet, when do trans men and women get to be ignorant on bathroom poltics?

When do black and latino get to ignorant on police brutality?

When do women get to be ignorant on reproductive rights?

When do Asians get to be ignorant on modal minority status?

We had 400 years of Quid about a little of the pro quo?
It’s clear that ignorance is the privilege of the majority and that minorities are subject to the consequences of that ignorance, and while that’s understandable and worth highlighting I’d say the next question is where do we go from here? Progress is rolling back ignorance, and the unfortunate reality is that a new majority must be created to right those wrongs, and even more people need to have their minds changed to normalize it. Obviously there are some who will never have their minds changed and are so rooted in racism, homophobia, or any other kind of hate that they are a lost cause, but I don’t think what Booker said was in defense of those people or trying to persuade those critical of them to be tolerant. To me, what he was trying to say - albeit poorly and over maybe one of the worst topics to make this point about - is that if you want progress, you’re gonna have to change minds, and writing someone off because they don’t understand that something is wrong and denying them the chance to learn may not be the best way of doing this. Personally, I’ve been ignorant about things when I was younger, whether it be something like cultural appropriation or the sheer scale of sexual harassment women are subject to, but I was educated on that by people talking to me about it. Of course, this requires one to have the willingness to listen, but nonetheless a conversation was at least started. Now I’m not a fan of Booker and I think that criticism of his statement is valid, but what annoyed me is people dismissing him completely as a candidate from a sound bite of a message with a larger context. That’s how I see it at least.
 

Slayven

You probably post about me on another board.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,111
It’s clear that ignorance is the privilege of the majority and that minorities are subject to the consequences of that ignorance, and while that’s understandable and worth highlighting I’d say the next question is where do we go from here? Progress is rolling back ignorance, and the unfortunate reality is that a new majority must be created to right those wrongs, and even more people need to have their minds changed to normalize it. Obviously there are some who will never have their minds changed and are so rooted in racism, homophobia, or any other kind of hate that they are a lost cause, but I don’t think what Booker said was in defense of those people or trying to persuade those critical of them to be tolerant. To me, what he was trying to say - albeit poorly and over maybe one of the worst topics to make this point about - is that if you want progress, you’re gonna have to change minds, and writing someone off because they don’t understand that something is wrong and denying them the chance to learn may not be the best way of doing this. Personally, I’ve been ignorant about things when I was younger, whether it be something like cultural appropriation or the sheer scale of sexual harassment women are subject to, but I was educated on that by people talking to me about it. Of course, this requires one to have the willingness to listen, but nonetheless a conversation was at least started. Now I’m not a fan of Booker and I think that criticism of his statement is valid, but what annoyed me is people dismissing him completely as a candidate from a sound bite of a message with a larger context. That’s how I see it at least.
This only makes sense if you believe margalized people ahve done nothing and continue to do so to invoke change. They have navigate beign less then AND teach people to value their humanity. Why is all the work is put on them? Why must we deprogram people of super obvious shit, like don't lynch people?
 
Oct 30, 2017
213
Why isn't Jay Inslee more popular? I'm trying to find something bad about him, but most of his policies seem progressive and he's willing to put climate change as his number one issue. I mean, we're talking about a timetable of years--not decades.
as with most everything at this (incredibly early) stage, it's simply name recognition - he doesn't have a visible national platform, so most people simply don't know who he is

once campaign season really starts with debates in the summer, we'll get a much more useful understanding of popularity and support. until then, it's all just based on media coverage or being high-profile on the national stage
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,206
Why isn't Jay Inslee more popular? I'm trying to find something bad about him, but most of his policies seem progressive and he's willing to put climate change as his number one issue. I mean, we're talking about a timetable of years--not decades.
I'm excited for a climate changed focused candidate to be in the race-- hopefully he moves the window for everyone running to adopt policies that treat climate change like the crisis it is.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,035
This only makes sense if you believe margalized people ahve done nothing and continue to do so to invoke change. They have navigate beign less then AND teach people to value their humanity. Why is all the work is put on them? Why must we deprogram people of super obvious shit, like don't lynch people?
Marganilzed people have always done what they could to invoke change, they’ve bled for it, been jailed for it, and have died for it. The tragedy of all this is that history is driven by struggle, and those in power will not submit to the will of the minority. They’ve had to change minds to begin the abolitionist movement, to end segregation and other Jim Crow era laws, to protect themselves from internment, to protect their reproduction rights, and so on and so forth. It’s not fair, but it’s part of the process to make a better society. There comes a point where one has to realize a mind cannot be changed, but we can’t call everyone who is ignorant a bigot, or else that is what they’ll eventually become.
 

Slayven

You probably post about me on another board.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,111
Marganilzed people have always done what they could to invoke change, they’ve bled for it, been jailed for it, and have died for it. The tragedy of all this is that history is driven by struggle, and those in power will not submit to the will of the minority. They’ve had to change minds to begin the abolitionist movement, to end segregation and other Jim Crow era laws, to protect themselves from internment, to protect their reproduction rights, and so on and so forth. It’s not fair, but it’s part of the process to make a better society. There comes a point where one has to realize a mind cannot be changed, but we can’t call everyone who is ignorant a bigot, or else that is what they’ll eventually become.
Then they need to show they are willing to change and put in , cause invoking the marginalized to teach every bigot is just a stratagem to undermind and suck the energy for them

Instead of "put yourself in the shoes of a white person" he should have said "People need to put themselves in the shoes of a black person"
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,531
is this sincere or are they trying to scare away dem primary voters?
Probably largely sincere. Klobuchar was loved by conservative groups and reviled by progressives in her county prosecutor role (anti-criminal justice reform, pro-tough on petty crimes) and she often signs into conservative legislation in the Senate (she was the only Dem presidential hopeful that voted for Rubio's anti-BDS bill that punishes criticism of Israel).

She's the most conservative [announced] candidate on the Dem side besides Tulsi.
 
Nov 19, 2018
640
I know Kamalas record as AG in California is a cause for concern.

But holy shit, if I am not leaning towards supporting her. Every time I’ve seen her speak, she speaks very well and seems intelligent.

Plus, I know that she would beat the fuck out of trump during debates.
I don't mind Harris but everything I'm seeing from black people is telling me this will be Hillary all over again. I haven't seen any discussion on this forum about the ADOS movement but people better get wise to it quickly. I feel like by the time 2020 hits it will be massive and it already seems vulnerable to bot influence.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,069
She more closely resembles the type of Dem that won the elections that flipped the house and would probably help in doing better than others in states we need to win back the senate.

In a weird way I think someone more moderate like her could actually get more done because she *i think* could carry more seats. I think someone like Harris could win the nomination but I worry about even if she or someone else who runs way to the left might just end up flipping back Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan and that’s it. Like, Gillum actually ticket splitting worse than Nelson even with Nelson getting fucked because of ballot design kind of has me worried about that kind of thing. We all thought young exciting Gillum would drag old boring Nelson across the finish line but it was actually the opposite. Not that’s what I think people on here want to here but it’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot.

I think a lot more people are coming around to the idea that pushing to be a lot more progressive is the way forward just because Hillary failed, but I wonder if that’s sort of misguided, because I think that mostly had to do with her personality, history of scandal, inability to respond well to any of the problems her campaign was dealing with and so on than how moderate whatever position she actually took.
 
Oct 25, 2017
743
She more closely resembles the type of Dem that won the elections that flipped the house and would probably help in doing better than others in states we need to win back the senate.

In a weird way I think someone more moderate like her could actually get more done because she *i think* could carry more seats. I think someone like Harris could win the nomination but I worry about even if she or someone else who runs way to the left might just end up flipping back Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan and that’s it. Like, Gillum actually ticket splitting worse than Nelson even with Nelson getting fucked because of ballot design kind of has me worried about that kind of thing. We all thought young exciting Gillum would drag old boring Nelson across the finish line but it was actually the opposite. Not that’s what I think people on here want to here but it’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot.

I think a lot more people are coming around to the idea that pushing to be a lot more progressive is the way forward just because Hillary failed, but I wonder if that’s sort of misguided, because I think that mostly had to do with her personality, history of scandal, inability to respond well to any of the problems her campaign was dealing with and so on than how moderate whatever position she actually took.
I don't really think your FL election analysis is accurate. Hispanic colorism is strong here, and Rs tried to drag Gillum down with that investigation scandal. I wasn't on Gillum's campaign but I heard it similar organizational issues to Hillary's campaign.

What I'm trying to say is, Gillum was great ideologically but less than ideal in reality. And I don't have access to inside data but I was on the stage where Nelson was supposed to give his victory speech celebrating with a smaller winning campaign.
 
Oct 29, 2017
894
I don't mind Harris but everything I'm seeing from black people is telling me this will be Hillary all over again. I haven't seen any discussion on this forum about the ADOS movement but people better get wise to it quickly. I feel like by the time 2020 hits it will be massive and it already seems vulnerable to bot influence.
Yep ADOS is gaining ground. I’ve already seen many popular black Youtubers and black twitter going after her
 
Jan 2, 2019
86
My biggest worry about Harris is turnout. I just fear a lot of leftists who would vote for Bernie or Warren in the general won't vote for Harris, similar to Hillary

I think Bernie and Warren would generate the largest turnout of supporters in the general
 
Nov 2, 2017
944
Outside
(CNN) As district attorney of San Francisco, Kamala Harris supported a city policy that required law enforcement to turn over undocumented juvenile immigrants to federal immigration authorities if they were arrested and suspected of committing a felony, regardless of whether they were actually convicted of a crime.

Harris, who was San Francisco's district attorney from 2004 to 2011, sided with then-Mayor Gavin Newsom in a political fight over San Francisco's status as a sanctuary city that split the city's municipal government, with the mayor's office supporting the policy and the city's elected Board of Supervisors opposing it.

Harris' past position could open her up to attacks from immigration activists as well as the more progressive wing of the party as she seeks the Democratic nomination in 2020. The fight over the San Francisco policy was covered extensively at the time, but Harris' role has not been closely examined since she entered the national spotlight. KFile explored her position during a review of her record on immigration.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/11/politics/kfile-kamala-harris-undocumented-juveniles/index.html
Multiple juveniles faced deportation over relatively minor crimes: in one instance reported by the Times, a 14-year-old who had been in the United States since he was 2 was handed over to ICE after he took a BB gun to school to show off to friends. In another instance, a 13-year-old and his family faced deportation after he punched another boy at school and stole 46 cents.

The city Board of Supervisors passed legislation making it so that youths could only be reported to federal immigration authorities if convicted of a felony. After Newsom vetoed the legislation, the Board had enough votes to override his veto, and passed the law without his signature. Despite this, Newsom refused to follow the legislation and ordered the city to continue reporting undocumented juvenile suspects to ICE.

During the fight between Newsom and the Board of Supervisors, Harris publicly supported Newsom and opposed the Board's legislation. She argued her position by saying that she believed the ordinance would be in violation of federal law and would be struck down in courts. San Francisco City Attorney's office told CNN this month that the ordinance has never been challenged in court.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,622
I don't mind Harris but everything I'm seeing from black people is telling me this will be Hillary all over again. I haven't seen any discussion on this forum about the ADOS movement but people better get wise to it quickly. I feel like by the time 2020 hits it will be massive and it already seems vulnerable to bot influence.
This will absolutely be a target for Russian active measures.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,710
I don't mind Harris but everything I'm seeing from black people is telling me this will be Hillary all over again. I haven't seen any discussion on this forum about the ADOS movement but people better get wise to it quickly. I feel like by the time 2020 hits it will be massive and it already seems vulnerable to bot influence.
You on the coli?
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,959
Canada
My biggest worry about Harris is turnout. I just fear a lot of leftists who would vote for Bernie or Warren in the general won't vote for Harris, similar to Hillary
I think Bernie and Warren would generate the largest turnout of supporters in the general
It seems Warren(less so) or Bernie may push a lot of moderate voters away. There's no point switching presidents to one with a class war motivation instead of a race war. If Congress and the Senate still have to fight against every terrible shortsighted ideological policy idea and foreign relations mistake of a new belligerent President the people might vote to stick with the idiot they know and have learned to handle given the choice.

If Harris can win the primary and ease concerns of moderates she does stand a chance to attract the largest portion of voters and have a clear road to being a successful President.

If the leftists can't accept their candidate's loss and won't support, it's on them.
 
Jan 2, 2019
86
It seems Warren(less so) or Bernie may push a lot of moderate voters away. There's no point switching presidents to one with a class war motivation instead of a race war. If Congress and the Senate still have to fight against every terrible shortsighted ideological policy idea and foreign relations mistake of a new belligerent President the people might vote to stick with the idiot they know and have learned to handle given the choice.

If Harris can win the primary and ease concerns of moderates she does stand a chance to attract the largest portion of voters and have a clear road to being a successful President.

If the leftists can't accept their candidate's loss and won't support, it's on them.
What are the policy positions that Warren is taking that would turn away moderates?

Or Bernie for that matter
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,959
Canada
What are the policy positions that Warren is taking that would turn away moderates?

Or Bernie for that matter
Bernie not appearing in House recently to vote against easing sanctions on the Russian oligarch and not supporting Maginsky are some of the problem.
Warren's policies are good and she might be able to move some of them through the Houses better than Bernie, but she seems prone to mishandling situations like the Native American thing. I like Warren to a degree and the fact she didn't endorse Bernie in 2016 gives me a better impression of her.
Bernie and Tulsi are in the same category of unfit for office. Swinging at phantoms and would seem to bring nothing but problems if they had power. They do seem to attract a lot of the same supporters.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,072
Bernie not appearing in House recently to vote against easing sanctions on the Russian oligarch and not supporting Maginsky are some of the problem.
Warren's policies are good and she might be able to move some of them through the Houses better than Bernie, but she seems prone to mishandling situations like the Native American thing. I like Warren to a degree and the fact she didn't endorse Bernie in 2016 gives me a better impression of her.
Bernie and Tulsi are in the same category of unfit for office. Swinging at phantoms and would seem to bring nothing but problems if they had power. They do seem to attract a lot of the same supporters.
Bernie and Warren should not be voting for anything in the House lol. They’re senators.
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,959
Canada
Bernie and Warren should not be voting for anything in the House lol. They’re senators.
I thought the Senate and Congress were both called Houses. Thanks for the insight.

edit:Or maybe there's a misunderstanding: the push through the houses was meant if they were President trying to get their directives through both houses as unchanged as possible.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
718
I thought the Senate and Congress were both called Houses. Thanks for the insight.

edit:Or maybe there's a misunderstanding: the push through the houses was meant if they were President trying to get their directives through both houses as unchanged as possible.
Both the Senate and the House together are called Congress.
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,959
Canada
Both the Senate and the House together are called Congress.
Thanks. I only got into American politics the middle of last year and appreciate the help. Before this I ignored most of it. With the Trump admin calling Canada a national security threat it turned my attention towards American politics. Then when the news started showing kids were in cages, records lost, not being returned to parents etc., that's when I decided to own that threat designation, not to the USA but to the viability and security of Trump's continuing administration. If I can help, whatever little bit, against Trump or against any other activities in American politics that contribute to dehumanization and destabilization then I'm in.
It's like my neighbour to the south went crazy on meth or lsd and having a bad trip lashing out at everyone and can't tell friend from foe.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,622
A senate is a house: an "upper house."
Yeah, but nobody really talks about it that way since it's not based on the parliamentary system. The usual term is chamber instead.

The House of Representatives and the Senate are the two chambers of Congress. Congress itself is the body of one of the three branches of government (the legislative branch).
 
Jan 2, 2019
86
Lol Bernie is not going to be a bigger turnout driver compared to Copmala.
Dem establishment voters tend to come out more than those on the left. Remember Bernie brought out a lot of new voters who usually don't come out and vote. How many of those do you think would vote for Harris compared to Warren in the general?
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,141
Dem establishment voters tend to come out more than those on the left. Remember Bernie brought out a lot of new voters who usually don't come out and vote. How many of those do you think would vote for Harris compared to Warren in the general?
you realize that both Warren and Bernie will fully support Harris if she's the nom right?
 
Oct 28, 2017
718
you realize that both Warren and Bernie will fully support Harris if she's the nom right?
I remember when bernie fully support Hillary by dragging the primary out long after he had lost, and then waited till the convention to support her, and then spent the rest of the time talking about how she couldn't be trusted to stick to her campaign promises. Good times.
 
Nov 7, 2017
10,532
I remember when bernie fully support Hillary by dragging the primary out long after he had lost, and then waited till the convention to support her, and then spent the rest of the time talking about how she couldn't be trusted to stick to her campaign promises. Good times.
Did you end up in an alternate universe and just recently get back?
 
Jan 2, 2019
86
you realize that both Warren and Bernie will fully support Harris if she's the nom right?
Sure I do, I'm thinking of some of their supporters. Particularly those energized by Bernie's campaign from 2016

I mean most will come out and vote, but even a difference of 5% not coming out can make the difference between Trump being defeated and not.

Also this election isn't just about Trump, but taking back the Senate.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,524
Dem establishment voters tend to come out more than those on the left. Remember Bernie brought out a lot of new voters who usually don't come out and vote. How many of those do you think would vote for Harris compared to Warren in the general?
If by establishment voters you mean black voters, and particularly black women, the substantial bloc that carries Dems, then the first black woman to have a serious shot at President is going to be more meaningful to turnout than whatever fringe Jill Steiners that the first American Indian white woman from Massachusetts will bring into the fold.