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2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate

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Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Iloelemen said:
If you want to look at real change, look at what's been accomplished by the fuckery that is the Republican party. For the past 5 decades, they've succeeded in moving the overton window way to the right and in implementing they're agenda, they've continuously lower taxes and privatise everything, thanks to them we have Fox News, they've succeded in putting racist policies and voter suppression laws, they've succeded in instilling a culture of blind loyalty to the military and have waged havoc on whatver country with brown people and hey, they're almost there in removing abortion rights.

By the number of times that they've got closer to their agenda, they've continuously managed to play the Democrats in the Republicans' game.
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This is correct. We have to work with the good guys, who aren't allowed to do a quarter of that because we have standards. They have huge advantages the Dems don't get, and maybe nor never will.

The Republicans own the game, that is an assessment I agree with. However, when it comes to laying that game and achieving wins I would say the moderate Dems have got a lot more done than their leftist field. They survived, they thrived, and they moved leftward when they could. AS a party they are a force which take on the GOP for all that time and manage to win every so often. Until recently the left weren't even on the board, so that's why this avenue of attack (which is legit, I'm not saying it's not) loses its bite.

Did you disagree with my assessment of Bernie's career?
 
Iloelemen

Iloelemen

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,323
Ichthyosaurus said:
This is correct. We have to work with the good guys, who aren't allowed to do a quarter of that because we have standards. They have huge advantages the Dems don't get, and maybe nor never will.

The Republicans own the game, that is an assessment I agree with. However, when it comes to laying that game and achieving wins I would say the moderate Dems have got a lot more done than their leftist field. They survived, they thrived, and they moved leftward when they could. AS a party they are a force which take on the GOP for all that time and manage to win every so often. Until recently the left weren't even on the board, so that's why this avenue of attack (which is legit, I'm not saying it's not) loses its bite.

Did you disagree with my assessment of Bernie's career?
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I'm saying that Bernie is weak and the Democrats are weak, and that they've lost way way way too many times to the Republicans, and that continuing what the Democrats have been doing in the past years is gonna lead to more losses.
I'm hoping the dems become stronger, amd that's what seems to be happening recently.
 
Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Iloelemen said:
I'm saying that Bernie is weak and the Democrats are weak, and that they've lost way way way too many times to the Republicans, and that continuing what the Democrats have been doing in the past years is gonna lead to more losses.
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The loses will continue because absolutely nobody has a game plan which will change the game. This isn't a wash, Bernie's provided more weakness on that front than the Dems have so what do we do now? If the left had provided results which would put us in a winning position I'd be more inclined to listen, but that's not been how it's worked out ever. This may change in 10 -20 years when their bench has more people on it but right now the Dems are our best bet.
 
Iloelemen

Iloelemen

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,323
Ichthyosaurus said:
The loses will continue because absolutely nobody has a game plan which will change the game. This isn't a wash, Bernie's provided more weakness on that front than the Dems have so what do we do now? If the left had provided results which would put us in a winning position I'd be more inclined to listen, but that's not been how it's worked out ever. This may change in 10 -20 years when their bench has more people on it but right now the Dems are our best bet.
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Well doing the same sure ain't gonna help.
 
Jas

Jas

Member
Oct 28, 2017
201
Ichthyosaurus said:
Did you disagree with my assessment of Bernie's career?
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Yes, they didn't call him the amendment king for being lazy.

You make it sound like Bernie was any real competition, or hasn't got his own skeletons to be ashamed of politically. He isn't.

edit: Real change affects people, and that's what Bernie sells it's not what he does.
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Both of those appearances at AIPAC were from 2017 and they both attended AIPAC's conference in 2018.

Klobachar just voted for the Anti-BDS bill.

In Harris's speech she bragged about how her first vote in the Senate was for a resolution she co-sponsored objecting to the UN's resolution on Israeli settlements. Among other things, the UN resolution reiterated previous Security Council calls for Israel to stop expanding its illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, which violate the Fourth Geneva Convention and a ruling by the International Court of Justice.

Those are not "skeletons".
 
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Iloelemen

Iloelemen

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,323
Jas said:
Yes, they didn't call him the amendment king for being lazy.



Both of those appearances at AIPAC were from 2017 and they both attended AIPAC's conference in 2018.

Klobachar just voted for the Anti-BDS bill.

In Harris's speech she bragged about how her first vote in the Senate was for a resolution she co-sponsored objecting to the UN's resolution on Israeli settlements. Among other things, that resolution reiterated previous Security Council calls for Israel to stop expanding its illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, which violate the Fourth Geneva Convention and a landmark ruling by the International Court of Justice.

Those are not "skeletons".
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👏👏 Bernard.

Plus, I don't get the people saying that Bernie supporters don't criticize him, 'cos they very much do.
 
Unknown Unknown

Unknown Unknown

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
xbhaskarx said:
How long before Bernie bros stop defending Omar and start digging up dirt on her not being a true progressive?



https://twitter.com/neoblackout/status/1095744548016246784

https://theintercept.com/2018/09/20/is-ilhan-omar-donald-trumps-worst-nightmare/
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Ilhan Omar putting Bernie out to sea, into the West like RoTK, last year . She'd have a well informed opinion on the matter.
She's excited about Kamala Harris, that makes sense. With Booker it looks like she's signalling about how far to the right she's willing to go in open support. The follow up question at the link shows that winning in 2020 is a priority for her over ideological purity. A proper collegial attitude.
 
Iloelemen

Iloelemen

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,323
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Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Iloelemen said:
Well doing the same sure ain't gonna help.
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It helps us stay in the fight, gaining victories where we can. The entire argument from the left is that they can do better, but that only works if they can present a reasonable alternative that has a grater chances of success. They have not proved they can do that in all the decades they've had to prepare. They have not provided a result which gave congress a POTUS to execute their vision.

Jas said:
Yes, they didn't call him the amendment king for being lazy.
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That's good to hear.

Both of those appearances at AIPAC were from 2017 and they both attended AIPAC's conference in 2018.

Klobachar just voted for the Anti-BDS bill.

In Harris's speech she bragged about how her first vote in the Senate was for a resolution she co-sponsored objecting to the UN's resolution on Israeli settlements. Among other things, that resolution reiterated previous Security Council calls for Israel to stop expanding its illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, which violate the Fourth Geneva Convention and a landmark ruling by the International Court of Justice.

Those are not "skeletons".
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Are they bragging about them in the media? I don't think so. Harris' speech was for the AIPAC itself, hardly something she's addressing in congress in front of everyone. You do realise that many of her followers don't like this, right?

Do you honestly think Bernie has voted for terrible bills in the past or done things which were awful through his political career?

Iloelemen said:
Oh and, Bernie Bros (whatever erasure of a term that means) are actually quite disappointed in Bernie for not giving Omar a strong enough to of a support.....
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Bernie Bros aren't about erasure, Bernie has had plenty of white voters - it's what they did during the primaries. Which they had better not repeat.
 
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Iloelemen

Iloelemen

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,323
Ichthyosaurus said:
It helps us stay in the fight, gaining victories where we can. The entire argument from the left is that they can do better, but that only works if they can present a reasonable alternative that has a grater chances of success. They have not proved they can do that in all the decades they've had to prepare. They have not provided a result which gave congress a POTUS to execute their vision.



That's good to hear.



Are they bragging about them in the media? I don't think so. Harris' speech was for the AIPAC itself, hardly something she's addressing in congress in front of everyone. You do realise that many of her followers don't like this, right?

Do you honestly think Bernie has voted for terrible bills in the past or done things which were awful through his political career?
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Do you honestly think that his supporters are less critical of him compared to how other supporters are critical of their candidates?
 
Tomohawk

Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,014
Ichthyosaurus said:
This is correct. We have to work with the good guys, who aren't allowed to do a quarter of that because we have standards. They have huge advantages the Dems don't get, and maybe nor never will.

The Republicans own the game, that is an assessment I agree with. However, when it comes to laying that game and achieving wins I would say the moderate Dems have got a lot more done than their leftist field. They survived, they thrived, and they moved leftward when they could. AS a party they are a force which take on the GOP for all that time and manage to win every so often. Until recently the left weren't even on the board, so that's why this avenue of attack (which is legit, I'm not saying it's not) loses its bite.

Did you disagree with my assessment of Bernie's career?
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The left wasnt on the board because of years of demonization of anything they did as socialist with moderates playing along. Was FDR a moderate when he proposed a 100% tax rate. Alot of dems are more content to meet those on the right on the right than those on the left in the middle.
 
Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Iloelemen said:
Do you honestly think that his supporters are less critical of him compared to how other supporters are critical of their candidates?
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I'm not sure about in general but around here he's the only candidate who has a cult of personality and has many supporters who refuse to acknowledge his faults.

Tomohawk said:
The left wasnt on the board because of years of demonization of anything they did as socialist with moderates playing along. Was FDR a moderate when he proposed a 100% tax rate. Alot of dems are more content to meet those on the right on the right than those on the left in the middle.
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The left didn't need to be demonised, after a certain point they gave up on politics and to this day have a huge problem organising into a full political force. They did get jacked up by the authorities and haven't had the best reception within the party but they can't blame all that on outside parties. They're slowly overcoming this but too many want to stay in their old defeated mindsets, they want to talk of fighting rather than really fighting the system. The system hasn't needed to do anything about them for many years because they defeat themselves before they enter a race. Another fact is that they haven't succeeded in redeeming themselves in society's eyes and still cling to Socialist iconology to define their movement, something which their greatest champions wisely avoid - like Bernie and AOC. At some point they need to take personal responsibility for their leaders failing them within their movement and blaze a new path, but this never occurred.
 
Jas

Jas

Member
Oct 28, 2017
201
Ichthyosaurus said:
It helps us stay in the fight, gaining victories where we can. The entire argument from the left is that they can do better, but that only works if they can present a reasonable alternative that has a grater chances of success. They have not proved they can do that in all the decades they've had to prepare. They have not provided a result which gave congress a POTUS to execute their vision.



That's good to hear.



Are they bragging about them in the media? I don't think so. Harris' speech was for the AIPAC itself, hardly something she's addressing in congress in front of everyone. You do realise that many of her followers don't like this, right?

Do you honestly think Bernie has voted for terrible bills in the past or done things which were awful through his political career?
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The Klobacher and Harris examples are from 2017 and 2018.

As far as Harris not addressing it in Congress, I posted this...

"In Harris's speech she bragged about how her first vote in the Senate was for a resolution she co-sponsored objecting to the UN's resolution on Israeli settlements. Among other things, that resolution reiterated previous Security Council calls for Israel to stop expanding its illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, which violate the Fourth Geneva Convention and a landmark ruling by the International Court of Justice."

with a link to the resolution she co-sponsored in the Senate.

These aren't "skeletons", they're current views.
 
Madison

Madison

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Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Ichthyosaurus said:
I'm not sure about in general but around here he's the only candidate who has a cult of personality and has many supporters who refuse to acknowledge his faults.
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You need to check out Kamala supporters. I aint saying that Bernie supporters are the best at acknowledging his flaws but the shrugs ive seen when people bring up Kamala's past as an AG is honestly gross.
 
Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Fork said:
You need to check out Kamala supporters. I aint saying that Bernie supporters are the best at acknowledging his flaws but the shrugs ive seen when people bring up Kamala's past as an AG is honestly gross.
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I haven't seen anyone saying that wasn't bad shit or that she isn't a flawed candidate, but you're right they should hold her to the fire for that bullshit. That's more then I can say for some Bernie supporters, they're on a whole new level.

Jas said:
The Klobacher and Harris examples are from 2017 and 2018.

As far as Harris not addressing it in Congress, I posted this...

"In Harris's speech she bragged about how her first vote in the Senate was for a resolution she co-sponsored objecting to the UN's resolution on Israeli settlements. Among other things, that resolution reiterated previous Security Council calls for Israel to stop expanding its illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, which violate the Fourth Geneva Convention and a landmark ruling by the International Court of Justice."

with a link to the resolution she co-sponsored in the Senate.

These aren't "skeletons", they're current views.
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That's fair.
 
Unknown Unknown

Unknown Unknown

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Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
thepotatoman said:
Where the supporters for the top candidates would go second:

L7b7JCv.png


https://morningconsult.com/wp-conte...ng-Consult_Political-Intelligence_2.12.19.pdf

Everything about Biden's coalition continues to be weird and Harris is the clear anti-Bernie/Warren candidate.
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A lot of undecided still in each. What it is about Sanders and Warren that turns away Harris supporters so strongly?

Harris has the greatest % of Black, College+ and $100K+ and the lowest % Trump App and <30 in the coalition analysis.
L9ahO12.png
 
Iloelemen

Iloelemen

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,323
Ichthyosaurus said:
I'm not sure about in general but around here he's the only candidate who has a cult of personality and has many supporters who refuse to acknowledge his faults.
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You're not lying when you say that he's treated as a cult of personality with supporters that are blind to his faults, but it's quite a lie to say that he is the ONLY candidate, or politican for that matter on the Democratic side that's like this.


A lot of politics as it stands right now, whether you like it or not, are built around personalities, and delusional stanning exist all throughout the board, democrats or republican, establishment or anti-establishment. Bernie ain't the only one, and that applies both to this site and to the old site, and it isn't lowkey when it comes to other candidates either.


And yes, There are Bernie Supporters here who hold him accountable for his wrongdoings.
 
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Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Iloelemen said:
You're not lying when you say that he's treated as a cult of personality with supporters that are blind to his faults, but it's quite a lie to say that he is the ONLY candidate, or politican for that matter on the Democratic side that's like this.


A lot of politics as it stands right now, whether you like it or not, are built around personalities, and delusional stanning exist all throughout the board, democrats or republican, establishment or anti-establishment. Bernie ain't the only one, and that applies both to this site and to the old site, and it isn't lowkey when it comes to other candidates either.


And yes, There are Bernie Supporters here who hold him accountable for his wrongdoings.
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I can agree with this.
 
RailWays

RailWays

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,667
jack_package_200 said:
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She definitely has gained a lot of traction over the past month. Hell, I knew nothing about her until she held that rally in January.
I'm surprised Howard Schultz isn't higher, as I'm assuming the metrics for media engagement would include his ratio'd tweets. He doesn't have much other social media presence though, so I guess that only goes so far.
 
Powdered Egg

Powdered Egg

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Oct 27, 2017
17,070
Other than some of her prosecutor stuff are there any other red flags about Kamala? I just started her Breakfast Club interview and I felt like they did a decent job of addressing trust issues Black folks might have with her and she did alright addressing them. If she wins the primary I will definitely vote for her.
 
RailWays

RailWays

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,667
Powdered Egg said:
Other than some of her prosecutor stuff are there any other red flags about Kamala? I just started her Breakfast Club interview and I felt like they did a decent job of addressing trust issues Black folks might have with her and she did alright addressing them. If she wins the primary I will definitely vote for her.
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I haven't heard anything else aside from kissing the AIPAC ring.
 
Anoregon

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,035
I'm still a bit surprised (pleasantly, I suppose) that Harris has come out of the gate so strong. A few months ago before people started making official announcements, I thought of her and Gillibrand as having similar levels of appeal/excitement. I was clearly wrong about that.
 
TarNaru33

TarNaru33

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Oct 27, 2017
2,045
weirder said:
Ilhan Omar putting Bernie out to sea, into the West like RoTK, last year . She'd have a well informed opinion on the matter.
She's excited about Kamala Harris, that makes sense. With Booker it looks like she's signalling about how far to the right she's willing to go in open support. The follow up question at the link shows that winning in 2020 is a priority for her over ideological purity. A proper collegial attitude.
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Incorrect.

If we are going to vote in garbage Democrat candidates, then may as well hand Trump his 2nd term.
 
lenovox1

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
weirder said:
A lot of undecided still in each. What it is about Sanders and Warren that turns away Harris supporters so strongly?

Harris has the greatest % of Black, College+ and $100K+ and the lowest % Trump App and <30 in the coalition analysis.
L9ahO12.png
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Hmm, there's not enough detail in these crosstabs to support my initial observation, but I do still think the stereotypical Harris supporter (30+, college educated, woman of color) doesn't hate Warren or Sanders. They're just getting see their needs getting fulfilled elsewhere.

Anoregon said:
I'm still a bit surprised (pleasantly, I suppose) that Harris has come out of the gate so strong. A few months ago before people started making official announcements, I thought of her and Gillibrand as having similar levels of appeal/excitement. I was clearly wrong about that.
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They do have a similar appeal, I think.

This is completely a story about campaign preparedness. Harris has had every single duck in a row since December, and every last detail about this campaign has been mapped out and story boarded to within an inch of its life.

Gillibrand is asking how to eat fried chicken.

And, to be fair to Gillibrand, her campaign is still in its exploratory stages. She's doing a lot of retail politicking and determination of what voters will care about come 2019/2020, and zero media. Harris has seemingly been there, done that.

And it's not Harris sopping up most of Gillibrand's voters. It's Warren, I think.
 
Steel

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
weirder said:
A lot of undecided still in each. What it is about Sanders and Warren that turns away Harris supporters so strongly?

Harris has the greatest % of Black, College+ and $100K+ and the lowest % Trump App and <30 in the coalition analysis.
L9ahO12.png
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Sanders supporters are most likely to approve of Trump and most likely to be male. There's probably a connection between those things. Harris supporters are least likely to approve of Trump. Probably a function of how high her black and woman share of supporters are.

But, seriously, 1 in 10 sanders supporters approve of Trump? I mean, with Biden you kinda expect it, but Sanders?

Anoregon said:
I'm still a bit surprised (pleasantly, I suppose) that Harris has come out of the gate so strong. A few months ago before people started making official announcements, I thought of her and Gillibrand as having similar levels of appeal/excitement. I was clearly wrong about that.
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I had her well above Gillibrand in terms of chances of winning, but I thought Booker or Beto was more likely to eat her voters than vice versa. Still she was in the top 3 of the "something new" candidates.
 
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jack_package_200

jack_package_200

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,537
Stolen from Poliera



Criteria for first 2 debates:
  • Max 20 Candidates
  • 2 Consecutive Nights
  • Must Reach 1% in 3 approved polls
  • Or raise $65K from 200 donors in 20 different states
  • Slots will be selected by random drawing
  • Back-to-back Weeknights in June and July
  • NBC News, MSNBC, Telemundo sponsoring 1st Debate
  • CNN hosts 2nd Debate
  • Expects a dozen debates
 
Aaron

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
Steel said:
But, seriously, 1 in 10 sanders supporters approve of Trump? I mean, with Biden you kinda expect it, but Sanders?
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In West Virginia, 39% of Bernie Sanders' primary voters said they would vote for Trump in the general election, even if his Democratic opponent was Bernie Sanders.

edit: sorry looked up the actual number, originally put "a majority of Bernie Sanders' primary voters"
 
Tamanon

Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
jack_package_200 said:
Stolen from Poliera



Criteria for first 2 debates:
  • Max 20 Candidates
  • 2 Consecutive Nights
  • Must Reach 1% in 3 approved polls
  • Or raise $65K from 200 donors in 20 different states
  • Slots will be selected by random drawing
  • Back-to-back Weeknights in June and July
  • NBC News, MSNBC, Telemundo sponsoring 1st Debate
  • CNN hosts 2nd Debate
  • Expects a dozen debates
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Doesn't seem bad at all.
 
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Steel said:
Sanders supporters are most likely to approve of Trump and most likely to be male. There's probably a connection between those things. Harris supporters are least likely to approve of Trump. Probably a function of how high her black and woman share of supporters are.

But, seriously, 1 in 10 sanders supporters approve of Trump? I mean, with Biden you kinda expect it, but Sanders?
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I kept talking about the populist overlap in aspects of their support in 2016 for a reason.
 
Tom Nook Says...

Tom Nook Says...

Member
Jan 15, 2019
4,393
Green Yoshi said:
Maybe in 2032. If the next Democrat will be in office from 2021 until 2029, there could be a Republican in the White House again in 2032.
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If a dem wins in 2020 and then runs for re-election in 2024, why would she not then run in 2028? Why should she (and the democratic party as a whole) just let Republicans take the 2028 election? Keep in mind, once Texas and Georgia flip the Republicans will be lost in the woods trying to find a way to cobble an electoral win on their current platform, or go through the tedious work of redefining what they stand for and abandoning their white nationalist platform altogether. While it didn't save us in 2016, the GOP really does have a serious demographic issue approaching.

I think if dems win in 2020, we're going to see a period of time for dems like what Republicans had from 1968-1992, in which only four of those twenty four years had a democratic president, and even that was thanks to Watergate. And by the time Republicans take office again they'll sound a good deal more like Democrats than they used to, just as Bill Clinton sounded more like Republicans than previous Dem nominees did.
 
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Maneil99

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
You guys have had 4 years and you've got a Cop, a old dying man for socialism, an old racist man, and someone that lost to Ted Cruz. What the hell.
 
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