2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate

[Aaron]

^ No. Biden is a fraud.

FFS how are people so blind? Or do they just not care about the same things as me? I don't get it.

Here's some stances on Biden. Older article but it sums up the piece of trash well enough.https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/01/the-case-against-joe-biden.html

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I don't think you comprehended anything he said.

Domestic policy in the US is by and large dictated by whatever Congress can or can't pass. In that regard, if you had a House with 218 Democrats and a Senate with 51 Democrats, there would not be any substantial difference between what Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders could sign. It would come down to what Joe Manchin would be willing to support. You might be able to say something for "well Sanders might pressure them to do xyz and Biden wouldn't," but that's not very tangible - and more to the point, it doesn't really mean anything. Members of Congress don't have a huge incentive to work with the President on anything, even if they're from the same party.

A big issue with US politics is the importance people place on the personalities running for President while disregarding the significance of lower offices. Better Dem turnout in 2014 and 2016 could have saved upwards of six Senate seats and we'd have a majority right now, and Trump wouldn't have been able to do jack shit. But no, Obama didn't inspire them and Hillary was a bitch, so our side stayed home.

Don't get me wrong, I would take Sanders over Biden in a heartbeat. But if someone says "What Biden could do isn't that different from what Sanders could do because of Congress" and your kneejerk response is "NUH-UH BIDEN SUXXX" you're part of the problem.

 

[Chariot]

I mean, just go watch videos from the 2016 primary debates lol.

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The burden of proof is on you. It is an easy enough thing to do. Just show us one, or preferably multiple videos where he attacks someone, besides Trump, as a person.

What are we supposed to do? Linking you hundreds of videos where he isn't attacking any person are worthless, if there is one where he does, but it's not among them.

 

[Deleted member 3896]

Pack. The. Courts.

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Warren is quickly becoming my top choice. I worry she would have the hardest time in the general though.

Warren / Pete would amaze but it would be nice to have a PoC on the ticket too...

 

[Aaron]

Warren is quickly becoming my top choice. I worry she would have the hardest time in the general though.

Warren / Pete would amaze but it would be nice to have a PoC on the ticket too...

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I honestly don't know who'd be a good counterbalance to her on a ticket as a PoC, at least as far as candidates who are running.

 

[Madison]

"What Biden could do isn't that different from what Sanders could do because of Congress"

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A counterargument would be the supreme court picks. I cant imagine Biden going for a liberal, he might even go for a "moderate" conservative like Kennedy just to make sure that they get approved.

 

[Deleted member 3896]

I honestly don't know who'd be a good counterbalance to her on a ticket as a PoC, at least as far as candidates who are running.

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I don't really either, frankly. Abrams?

 

[YaBish]

Warren is quickly becoming my top choice. I worry she would have the hardest time in the general though.

Warren / Pete would amaze but it would be nice to have a PoC on the ticket too...

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Out of everything I've heard and read so far, Warren is probably my favorite. This interview solidified that for right now.

 

[Indiana Jones]

A counterargument would be the supreme court picks. I cant imagine Biden going for a liberal, he might even go for a "moderate" conservative like Kennedy just to make sure that they get approved.

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Mr. "Third Way" Bill Clinton put RBG on the court.

 

[pigeon]

A counterargument would be the supreme court picks. I cant imagine Biden going for a liberal, he might even go for a "moderate" conservative like Kennedy just to make sure that they get approved.

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This is a pretty silly take given that we've seen that even Trump, who clearly does not understand or care about SCOTUS, was convinced to nominate two hardline conservatives off of the GOP's wish list.

Presidents don't make SCOTUS nominations any more, parties do.

 

[Suiko]

The burden of proof is on you. It is an easy enough thing to do. Just show us one, or preferably multiple videos where he attacks someone, besides Trump, as a person.

What are we supposed to do? Linking you hundreds of videos where he isn't attacking any person are worthless, if there is one where he does, but it's not among them.

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You Bernie-stans are hilarious.

 

[Haubergeon]

That interview from Warren was pretty great, I have to admit. I would definitely like to see more of the Democratic candidates bust out more fightin' words.

 

[Madison]

Mr. "Third Way" Bill Clinton put RBG on the court.

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Well yeah, that is true, but it ignores the larger context.

1. - Clinton started his presidency with fairly liberal proposals and he had the congress to back him on those proposals. Heck, the attempt to create a single payer healthcare system is the best evidence of that. This Bill, the one with both comfortable majorities, was the one who nominated RBG
2.- Bill didnt do the shift to the right until he lost the majorities. Its clear that, while he did the "third way" political posturing, he also believed in some progressive policies, unlike Biden.

 

[Indiana Jones]

^ No. Biden is a fraud.

FFS how are people so blind? Or do they just not care about the same things as me? I don't get it.

Here's some stances from Biden. Older article but it sums up the piece of trash well enough.https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/01/the-case-against-joe-biden.html

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You can play this game with Sanders too. He backed the $1.5 trillion F-35 jet boondoggle! He supported a proposal to dump toxic sludge in a poor Latino community in Texas to get it out of his state! He voted for the 1994 crime bill! What a piece of trash!

(Neither Bernie or Biden are pieces of trash. They both occasionally backed controversial things for the benefit of their states. Part of being a Senator. )

 

[MrGerbils]

This is a pretty silly take given that we've seen that even Trump, who clearly does not understand or care about SCOTUS, was convinced to nominate two hardline conservatives off of the GOP's wish list.

Presidents don't make SCOTUS nominations any more, parties do.

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So let's get someone in who's not beholden to the party, maybe an independent who runs as a democrat even.

 

[Indiana Jones]

Well yeah, that is true, but it ignores the larger context.

1. - Clinton started his presidency with fairly liberal proposals and he had the congress to back him on those proposals. Heck, the attempt to create a single payer healthcare system is the best evidence of that. This Bill, the one with both comfortable majorities, was the one who nominated RBG
2.- Bill didnt do the shift to the right until he lost the majorities. Its clear that, while he did the "third way" political posturing, he also believed in some progressive policies, unlike Biden.

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Biden's the first senator to introduce a climate bill, way back in 1986. He's supported free college and a $15 minimum wage since 2015. He personally convinced Arlen Specter to switch parties and be the 60th vote needed to pass Obamacare.

Get outta here with he "doesn't believe in progressive policies." Nonsense.

 

[Madison]

You can play this game with Sanders too. He backed the $1.5 trillion F-35 jet boondoggle! He supported a proposal to dump toxic sludge in a poor Latino community in Texas to get it out of his state! He voted for the 1994 crime bill! What a piece of trash!

(Neither Bernie or Biden are pieces of trash. They both occasionally backed controversial things for the benefit of their states. Part of being a Senator. )

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Oh believe me, you dont want to play this argument. Biden isnt an ocasional piece of shit, a lot of the things hes done while in the senate are trash (and the things that arent are the bare minimum a democrat should do before being kicked out of the party). Its not the "oh he messes up sometimes" line. No, not with a man that has backed the amount of shit he has.

You can play that card with any of the other dem candidates but

-basically writing and supporting the patriot act
-voting for the war on Iraq
-being completely awful on the Anita Hill hearing
-doing a bad job on the Alito hearing
-voting for DOMA in 96
-repealing Glass Steagall
-voting to end bankruptcy protecting for college students.

and those are the ones that I found quickly! Thats not even talking about corruption or his links to republicans like Thurmond!

 

[RailWays]

I hope Bernie has a good response for Sierra Blanca, because it's guaranteed to pop up again

 

[Steel]

Well yeah, that is true, but it ignores the larger context.

1. - Clinton started his presidency with fairly liberal proposals and he had the congress to back him on those proposals. Heck, the attempt to create a single payer healthcare system is the best evidence of that. This Bill, the one with both comfortable majorities, was the one who nominated RBG
2.- Bill didnt do the shift to the right until he lost the majorities. Its clear that, while he did the "third way" political posturing, he also believed in some progressive policies, unlike Biden.

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1. Well, yeah. Clinton was a centrist. Which means any number of things, including being for some progressive proposals and being against others. Centrist does not mean practically a republican. And Biden is not practically a republican, either. What he could possibly accomplish changed when Congress changed, thus his policy proposals changed.
2. You... really only looked at the negative bits on Biden huh? While the negative bits are heavy he's along the same lines as Bill. He's a unionist dem. There's really no reason to believe he'd nominate less progressive judges than Bill, who nominated pretty damn progressive judges.

 

[Madison]

2. You... really only looked at the negative bits on Biden huh? While the negative bits are heavy he's along the same lines as Bill. He's a unionist dem. There's really no reason to believe he'd nominate less progressive judges than Bill, who nominated pretty damn progressive judges.

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Well, thats fair. I made a mistake by saying that he doesnt support some progressive policies. I dont think that they are nearly as enough though and the downsides heavily outweigh the good sides. His role on the Anita Hill hearings is way too much for me to stomach.

 

[KingK]

Ok, after Warren's comments on the courts and the filibuster (and Bernie's poor answer on it), time for my updated rankings.

1. Pete Buttigieg
2. Elizabeth Warren
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3. Bernie Sanders
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4. Kamala Harris
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5. Anyone but Biden or Booker.

I just worry that Warren would be the weakest in the general against Trump.

 

[pigeon]

So let's get someone in who's not beholden to the party, maybe an independent who runs as a democrat even.

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Parties making SCOTUS nominations is a good thing. That's why you don't have to worry that Biden would nominate a conservative, and why Janeane Pirro is not a Supreme Court Justice.

 

[Steel]

Well, thats fair. I made a mistake by saying that he doesnt support some progressive policies. I dont think that they are nearly as enough though and the downsides heavily outweigh the good sides. His role on the Anita Hill hearings is way too much for me to stomach.

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Look, I'm not gonna argue he's not shit. Just saying he's not gonna be a block on whatever legislation comes through congress as it turns out, which means him winning the primary isn't really the end of the world wouldn't actually change the end result legislation very much. The thing that'll change how progressive legislation that gets passed is has more to do with how many seats are picked up than anything else. Your own Clinton example is kinda the proof. Obama had a similar swing rightward, since, you know, his only hope of getting anything at all passed was to get it through a republican congress, thus the possibilities that he could push for narrowed considerably.

 

[Pet]

I just heard Pete's interview on the Takeaway on NPR and holy shit was I ever impressed. Seriously y'all.

 

[D.Dragoon]

Cozying up to big pharma is a big no for me.

 

[Deleted member 3896]

I just heard Pete's interview on the Takeaway on NPR and holy shit was I ever impressed. Seriously y'all.

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Don't sleep on Mayor Pete! I just donated to him this morning to hopefully at least get him to the debates.

 

[pigeon]

Cozying up to big pharma is a big no for me.

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Somehow Gillibrand managed to perfectly understand everything about the current zeitgeist in the Democratic Party except for the part about not taking big-ticket donors.

 

[tommy7154]

You can play this game with Sanders too. He backed the $1.5 trillion F-35 jet boondoggle! He supported a proposal to dump toxic sludge in a poor Latino community in Texas to get it out of his state! He voted for the 1994 crime bill! What a piece of trash!

(Neither Bernie or Biden are pieces of trash. They both occasionally backed controversial things for the benefit of their states. Part of being a Senator. )

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Sanders voted in favor of the 94 crime bill because it included the violence against women act. It was a compromise. He said this on the crime bill:
"...we are dooming today tens of millions of young people to a future of bitterness, misery, hopelessness, drugs, crime, and violence. And, Mr. Speaker, all the jails in the world — and we already imprison more people per capita than any other country — and all of the executions … in the world will not make that situation right. We can either educate or electrocute. We can create meaningful jobs, rebuilding our society, or we can build more jails. Mr. Speaker, let us create a society of hope and compassion, not one of hate and vengeance".

He backed the jets being in Vermont for job creation. It was either Vermont, or in some other state.. He doesn't actually support the military industrial complex. It was just a here, or somewhere else situation.

The toxic waste I'm not really going to defend other than to say it existed, despite what he wanted, and so he did what he thought was best with it. The idea is that it won't spread and contaminate nearly as easily in a drier climate. I will say that I certainly hope the location was a last resort though. I don't know what is normally done with toxic sludge so it's hard to say what should have been done. On the face of it though, I will agree that that is fucked up.

 

[Chronic_Moto]

I would be very happy with a Bernie / Harris ticket.
Warren has already messed up her chances by playing into Trumps DNA games.

 

[Chariot]

You Bernie-stans are hilarious.

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It's always a great discussion with you, Suiko.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

Cozying up to big pharma is a big no for me.

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yeah that's gonna be a fuck no from me

 

[RailWays]

Cozying up to big pharma is a big no for me.

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Welp, bye

 

[Indiana Jones]

Sanders voted in favor of the 94 crime bill because it included the violence against women act. He said this on the crime bill:
"...we are dooming today tens of millions of young people to a future of bitterness, misery, hopelessness, drugs, crime, and violence. And, Mr. Speaker, all the jails in the world — and we already imprison more people per capita than any other country — and all of the executions … in the world will not make that situation right. We can either educate or electrocute. We can create meaningful jobs, rebuilding our society, or we can build more jails. Mr. Speaker, let us create a society of hope and compassion, not one of hate and vengeance".

He backed the jets being in Vermont for job creation. It was either Vermont, or in some other state.. He doesn't actually support the military industrial complex. It was just a here, or somewhere else situation.

The toxic waste I'm not really going to defend other than to say it existed, despite what he wanted, and so he did what he thought was best with it. The idea is that it won't spread and contaminate nearly as easily in a drier climate. I will say that I certainly hope the location was a last resort though. I don't know what is normally done with toxic sludge so it's hard to say what should have been done.

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I totally understand Bernie's reasoning for making those decisions. I don't think he's evil or corrupt. I only bring these issues up because hardcore Bernie supporters tend to aggressively attack all his Democratic opposition for bad votes or a perceived lack of ideological purity without giving them the benefit of context, while handwaving away the marks on Bernie's record with "Well, he was trying his best! They were going to build F-35s somewhere, so it might as well be in Vermont!"

 

[Vector]

Cozying up to big pharma is a big no for me.

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thank u, Gillz, next

 

[Deleted member 2145]

imagine buddying up to the company that makes xanax and trying to win a democratic primary

 

[tommy7154]

I totally understand Bernie's reasoning for making those decisions. I don't think he's evil or corrupt. I only bring these issues up because hardcore Bernie supporters tend to aggressively attack all his Democratic opposition for bad votes or a perceived lack of ideological purity without giving them the benefit of context, while handwaving away the marks on Bernie's record with "Well, he was trying his best! They were going to build F-35s somewhere, so it might as well be in Vermont!"

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Ok, but look into Biden and why he supports what he does. He's just not a good person at all imo and he'd be terrible for this country. I mean sure anything has to be better than the trash we have now, but we can do so much better.

I will say though thank you for making me read into all that crap lol. I really do wonder what is normally done with toxic waste and what could have possibly been done in that case other than getting rid of it there. Why not where nobody is near at least?

 

[Mona]

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[higemaru]

Somehow Gillibrand managed to perfectly understand everything about the current zeitgeist in the Democratic Party except for the part about not taking big-ticket donors.

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Desperate times call for extraordinarily dumb measures

 

[Chaos Legion]

Oh believe me, you dont want to play this argument. Biden isnt an ocasional piece of shit, a lot of the things hes done while in the senate are trash (and the things that arent are the bare minimum a democrat should do before being kicked out of the party). Its not the "oh he messes up sometimes" line. No, not with a man that has backed the amount of shit he has.

You can play that card with any of the other dem candidates but

-basically writing and supporting the patriot act
-voting for the war on Iraq
-being completely awful on the Anita Hill hearing
-doing a bad job on the Alito hearing
-voting for DOMA in 96
-repealing Glass Steagall
-voting to end bankruptcy protecting for college students.

and those are the ones that I found quickly! Thats not even talking about corruption or his links to republicans like Thurmond!

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His vote helped to pass legislation that prevented the financial crisis from even becoming worse!

That's my Grandpa Joe!

 

[Suiko]

imagine buddying up to the company that makes xanax and trying to win a democratic primary

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THAT'S the issue you have with them?
Xanax is a lifesaver for many people, unless there was evidence of marketing towards people who don't need it like theopiates I don't see the problem.

 

[Tomohawk]

I hope Bernie has a good response for Sierra Blanca, because it's guaranteed to pop up again

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Well from what i understand there are environmental reasons to dump waste in texas and not Vermont given it recieves less rain fall. Dont know how much control he had over where in texas it would go though.

 

[Indiana Jones]

Ok, but look into Biden and why he supports what he does. He's just not a good person at all imo and he'd be terrible for this country. I mean sure anything has to be better than the trash we have now, but we can do so much better.

I will say though thank you for making me read into all that crap lol. I really do wonder what is normally done with toxic waste and what could have possibly been done in that case other than getting rid of it there. Why not where nobody is near at least?

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The only thing I'll refute you on is that Biden isn't a good person. He's a genuinely decent, warm guy--exactly how he comes across on TV--and that's pretty rare for politicians, many of whom have a public face and a much different private one. The folks I know who have either worked for Biden or with him have real affection for him. Like, he'd give the shirt off his back to one of his twenty two year old staffers. Meanwhile, I've worked with some of the most "eat the rich" liberal firebrand types who seem to take perverse pleasure in abusing their underlings and taking advantage of their status, and won't look you in the eye when you're talking to them if you're not somebody important. I'll admit this skews my bias.

You're perfectly right to study Biden's record and think he'd be terrible for the country, but I don't think it's fair to write him off as "not a good person."

 

[Jadentheman]

^ No. Biden is a fraud.

FFS how are people so blind? Or do they just not care about the same things as me? I don't get it.

Here's some stances from Biden. Older article but it sums up the piece of trash well enough.https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/01/the-case-against-joe-biden.html

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Lots of people rooting for centrists and faux progressives in this thread.

No I don't want "come together" center left Robert O Rouke with a questionable history. No. I don't want Kamala "jail them all" Harris as my first choice for the crown. Biden has baggage and rest assured he will get Me too'd

 

[JesseEwiak]

He backed the jets being in Vermont for job creation. It was either Vermont, or in some other state.. He doesn't actually support the military industrial complex. It was just a here, or somewhere else situation.
p.

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"The military industrial complex is bad, but we better get on those sweet deals for jobs anyway."

 

[Tomohawk]

Lots of people rooting for centrists and faux progressives in this thread.

No I don't want "come together" center left Robert O Rouke with a questionable history. No. I don't want Kamala "jail them all" Harris as my first choice for the crown. Biden has baggage and rest assured he will get Me too'd

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Kamala may not have been progressive on marijuana, truancy and prison slavery but i wouldnt define her as jail them all.

 

[Nocturnal]

The burden of proof is on you. It is an easy enough thing to do. Just show us one, or preferably multiple videos where he attacks someone, besides Trump, as a person.

What are we supposed to do? Linking you hundreds of videos where he isn't attacking any person are worthless, if there is one where he does, but it's not among them.

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Don't expect a reply

 

[tommy7154]

"The military industrial complex is bad, but we better get on those sweet deals for jobs anyway."

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It was either in Vermont, or in another state. He wanted it in his state for the jobs it would create. Obviously it's not ideal but realistically/honestly what would you do in that situation?

 

[Deleted member 2426]

You Bernie-stans are hilarious.

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What's so hilarious about their request for burden of proof? Don't be toxic.

 

[KidAAlbum]

Not sure if it's been posted, and you don't have to watch because it's Fox, but Yang confirms the DNC has reached out to him and he will be at the debates in the summer.

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I was listening to him on various podcasts regarding the loss of jobs through automation problem. Fascinating stuff.

Doesn't this mean that it's more imperative we move away from the ownership of vehicles?

With self driving cars owned by government, we get less accidents. This means that we no longer need to pay for car insurance, we don't need to pay as many police officers to patrol traffic, we pay less in health care, we no longer have car payments, our productivity gets helped by less traffic, and it becomes easier to move. Yang explained how mobility is important because for example, truck drivers need to stop every so often and many small economies depend on the gathering of those individuals, and so with the loss of those jobs, it becomes more important that they move into economies less dependent on that industry.

 

[pigeon]

I was listening to him on various podcasts regarding the loss of jobs through automation problem. Fascinating stuff.

Doesn't this mean that it's more imperative we move away from the ownership of vehicles?

With self driving cars owned by government, we get less accidents. This means that we no longer need to pay for car insurance, we don't need to pay as many police officers to patrol traffic, we pay less in health care, we no longer have car payments, our productivity gets helped by less traffic, and it becomes easier to move. Yang explained how mobility is important because for example, truck drivers need to stop every so often and many small economies depend on the gathering of those individuals, and so with the loss of those jobs, it becomes more important that they move into economies less dependent on that industry.

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I BEEN SAYING

 

[pigeon]

Lots of people rooting for centrists and faux progressives in this thread.

No I don't want "come together" center left Robert O Rouke with a questionable history. No. I don't want Kamala "jail them all" Harris as my first choice for the crown. Biden has baggage and rest assured he will get Me too'd

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I'll leave aside the rest of your opinions here but it's pretty gross rhetoric to deliberately use a name for somebody they don't choose to use themselves. Literally Hussein stuff.