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Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
I'm interested to see if Beto can go the whole primary without saying anything substantive. It will be tough but I think he's up to the task.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,269
Sounds like a heap of nothing to me.

Anyone that has to talk around the issue that much just immediately sounds completely full of it. You can clearly and concisely say if you support single-payer healthcare and that you will push for it with all your power if elected. If we have to keep trying to read tea leaves to figure out what Beto concretely supports then he just believes in nothing.

And "no one person, perhaps no one party" can make it happen? Actually no, one party can absolutely make this happen, and that's usually how politics works. There's this weird liberal notion of trying to take all that nasty partisan politics out of, you know, partisan politics. It isn't going to solve anything, especially with this much money in the system. Medicare for all can easily happen if you just get the Democratic Party on the same page, that's all you have to do, the wonks can figure out the rest.
 

Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
2,988
She's still around, last I heard she was praising California putting away the death penalty 5 hours before Bernie did:


Bernie's tweet on the matter was posted earlier in the thread like he was the only one to do it, of course.

We're super super early in the primary, spotlight isn't gonna be on someone at all times. Often it's better off not to be in the spotlight. Biden can attest to that atm.


A not so well know candidate should only go up in polling even if it's early. Bernie *never* stopped increasing in polls since April 2015. Kamala has show a decrease in polling since her announcement that put her dangerously close to Warren-tier.

The first 3 debates will be the most definitive moments until Iowa, but we can't deny that Kamala's Momentum has kind of deflated.

Let's see how it goes for Beto. I see a lot of enthusiasm but also way more vitrol that I saw with Kamala. We will see if the enthusiasm is organic if he is able to outdo Kamala or even Bernie's first day.
 
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Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,640
Bernie is completely devoid of any charisma whatsoever - It's his commitment to the things he's proposing that's drawing people in, and the fact that he talks 24/7 nonstop about policy instead of using flowery words and spending like 4 paragraphs saying a bunch of nothing..
 
Oct 27, 2017
993
Looked up Yang for the first time today, and an interview came up in which the interviewer posed some interesting questions:
Q. One area where it does seem that you are in agreement with Bernie Sanders though is health care. There's an obvious moral argument that's made for Medicare for all that essentially boils down to the idea everyone should have the right to get medical care when they're sick. But from a more technical standpoint, why do you feel like single payer is the most efficient way to go?
Q. On a more political note, proposals like single payer are often branded as socialist and even un-American by people on the right. A lot of conservatives sometimes will invoke Marxism, Communism things along those lines in response. Do you feel like as a candidate that you have to some degree more credibility or more political capital on these issues than some of your opponents because of your background in the private sector?

Yang answered the latter question as follows:
I think I do just because people have a sense then I'm approaching this from a pragmatic, non-ideological standpoint. I have been a CEO, I have run companies and organizations and one of the things I say about healthcare to people is, "look, if you're the CEO of a business. Our current system makes it harder to hire. Harder to treat people like full-time employees with benefits." It's harder to switch jobs, it's harder to start a business. Our health care system is a giant weight on the dynamism of our economy and that's something I understand because I've been the CEO of a private company that provided health insurance to its employees. So I do think I can make a different case for some of these policies than certain other political figures.

So his "different" arguments could conceivably be supplementary in nature, could help get through to more/additional/different types of voters, could maybe also help to persuade other candidates to get off the fence and become more forthright in their advocacy for single-payer, by making it more difficult for those fence-sitters (following what Carl Beijer says above) to portray insistence on single-payer as narrow-minded dogmatism. I mentioned something similar in relation to Kamala Harris, after the January CNN Town Hall:

...in previous posts (for example, here), I tried to emphasize that it was not Kamala Harris who put forward the negative framing of M4A, but Jake Tapper. In her direct response to Tapper, Kamala Harris attempted a brief (rather too brief, but then again her combination of brevity and nonchalance -- "...Ms. Harris breezily acknowledged...", the NYT wrote, in its account of the event -- arguably gave her answer the appearance of technocratic authoritativeness, as opposed to merely emotional/irrational/ideological fixation/obstinacy) 'positive reframing' of Tapper's talking point, in which she focused on positive outcomes; predictably, it was only Jake Tapper's inflammatory talking point (not Harris's 'positive reframing' of the talking point) that was repeated in press coverage of the issue, but more importantly, there was no sustained attempt at 'positive reframing' (of the type that Kamala Harris offered at the event itself) to counter the repetition of the negative talking point (in the subsequent coverage of the event).

In other words, as Kirblar and others have pointed out many times (and I have mentioned in the past, for example here), even Bernie would sign ACA 2.0 or similar incremental improvements, so it's not a problem that Harris's team said they are open to incremental reform. From the point of view of an M4A advocate, the only 'problem' would be the lack of sustained attempts at 'positive reframing':

https://twitter.com/PNHP/status/1093974578722938883


https://twitter.com/awgaffney/status/1095825129752408066


Also, private insurance is technically NOT excluded under the Senate M4A bill (as mentioned here), but the relevant part of the bill (Section 107, here) may be too restrictive, as Jon Walker frequently argues (see here and here and here, for example). If the rich or some employers want to pay for high-end 'duplicative' plans which hypothetically offered the same 'benefits' (the term used in Section 107) as M4A, but perhaps also offered higher compensation for providers (for those providers that might choose to opt out of M4A participation due to insistence on higher-end compensation, for example), then that may be a worthwhile concession to make (from the point of view of M4A advocates), in a political cost-benefit analysis.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
Criticizing him by saying that he used to be further left than what he appears now?
criticizing him because he doesn't think Bernie goes far enough in his policies, like that he wouldn't nationalize businesses that were fleeing the country. But at least this suggests that at one point Bernie did hold more radical beliefs about nationalizing industry.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
It really sucks you have to reframe the question of healthcare from "everyone deserves to live" to "your employer given healthcare is getting worse and worse, having single payer would be an improvement and help your company/business". But greed is a powerful motivator I guess.
 

xbhaskarx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,143
NorCal
Bernie is completely devoid of any charisma whatsoever - It's his commitment to the things he's proposing that's drawing people in, and the fact that he talks 24/7 nonstop about policy instead of using flowery words and spending like 4 paragraphs saying a bunch of nothing..
Yes Bernie's isn't just empty talk... he actually turns that talk into meaningful legislation that then gets passed as law and changes American lives for the better. Can a Bernie fan please list his legislative accomplishments from all those decades he's been in office?
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,640
Yes Bernie's isn't just empty talk... he actually turns that talk into meaningful legislation that then gets passed as law and changes American lives for the better. Can a Bernie fan please list his legislative accomplishments from all those decades he's been in office?
Beto's talking up a heap of nothing. Bernie is incessantly talking about policy goals. Don't make a strawman and attack that instead of what I said.

and the bill that put an end to US support for Saudi Arabia in the war against Yemen was pushed in the Senate by Bernie very recently and that's just off the top of my head - he played a pivotal role in getting Amazon and Disney to raise the minimum wage for their employees and moved the Overton window way left in the Democratic Party.
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
have to reframe the question of healthcare from "everyone deserves to live" to "your employer given healthcare is getting worse and worse, having single payer would be an improvement and help your company/business"

doesn't matter if it sucks. Frame it the way that will win, or it will lose. Look how well the Republicans have re-framed racism to make it palatable to more voters. We would do well to learn from that

Looked up Yang for the first time today, and an interview came up in which the interviewer posed some interesting questions:



Yang answered the latter question as follows:


So his "different" arguments could conceivably be supplementary in nature, could help get through to more/additional/different types of voters, could maybe also help to persuade other candidates to get off the fence and become more forthright in their advocacy for single-payer, by making it more difficult for those fence-sitters (following what Carl Beijer says above) to portray insistence on single-payer as narrow-minded dogmatism. I mentioned something similar in relation to Kamala Harris, after the January CNN Town Hall:

Yang's technical explanations are exactly why he's my front-runner (I also like Harris). Presenting data driven solutions makes him stand head and shoulders above Trump's 'anything I don't know, nobody knows' nonsense. Both sides lean on 'feelings' as a crutch, and 'feelings' ain't easy to change. Ultimately, everyone just doubles down on their 'gut' and shouts at one another louder. We need analysis an evidence to change minds.

I'm certain that Yang has the largest cross-over appeal of any candidate, but I don't think he has enough Dem appeal to make it out of the primary. Hoping he at least continues climbing, and maybe finds a good position he can run from in the future
 

xbhaskarx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,143
NorCal
and the bill that put an end to US support for Saudi Arabia in the war against Yemen was pushed in the Senate by Bernie very recently and that's just off the top of my head - he played a pivotal role in getting Amazon and Disney to raise the minimum wage for their employees and moved the Overton window way left in the Democratic Party.

Wait if everything he's accomplished was in the last few months and that's what matters, why did the same people support him in 2016? Just the overton window thing? Yes let's have a serious discussion about nationalizing all industry, based on polling as much as 25% of American voters would support that!
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
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Oct 28, 2017
9,237
criticizing him because he doesn't think Bernie goes far enough in his policies, like that he wouldn't nationalize businesses that were fleeing the country. But at least this suggests that at one point Bernie did hold more radical beliefs about nationalizing industry.

Ahh, got ya



Beto on rural broadband: they can't get on pornhub and watch busty women giving sloppy blowjobs.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,351
In the heartland of america, hardworking men and women can't even access the BangBus catalog at reasonable speeds. It's time we invested in the infrastructure necessary to right this wrong.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
Every American should have access to affordable porn. That is why I am proposing the Affordable Porn Act which signs every American up for a pornhub account
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Both sides lean on 'feelings' as a crutch, and 'feelings' ain't easy to change. Ultimately, everyone just doubles down on their 'gut' and shouts at one another louder. We need analysis an evidence to change minds.
I feel like you took the wrong lesson here, which is that evidence doesn't actually change people's minds and you need to be able to change their feelings to affect policy.

Consider the problem of climate change, we know it's coming, we know what it'll take to stop it, but we have very little movement here because people don't want to upset their current lives for the future.

Or anti-vax, all the evidence in the world doesn't stop them from endangering theirs and others' kids.

The world runs on feelings.
 
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
A not so well know candidate should only go up in polling even if it's early. Bernie *never* stopped increasing in polls since April 2015. Kamala has show a decrease in polling since her announcement that put her dangerously close to Warren-tier.

The first 3 debates will be the most definitive moments until Iowa, but we can't deny that Kamala's Momentum has kind of deflated.

Let's see how it goes for Beto. I see a lot of enthusiasm but also way more vitrol that I saw with Kamala. We will see if the enthusiasm is organic if he is able to outdo Kamala or even Bernie's first day.

This poll shows that Harris's momentum is still building with the largest increase in favorability of all the candidates. While Berine's favorability has stopped increasing and is declining.
 
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