• Introducing Image Options for ResetEra 2.0! Check the left side navigation bar to show or hide images, avatars, covers, and embedded media. More details at the link.

2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Biden Mulls Abrams as Running Mate

Oct 25, 2017
3,645
Denver
Beto is just like a human jar of mayonnaise at the moment. Maybe once Biden hops in he'll look better.

Michael Brooks made a good point yesterday, which is that if you want a young, charismatic white guy you should be looking at Pete. The only reason people aren't is because he's gay.
The comparisons don't just end at him being a charismatic white guy either. Buttigeig is all about having a more progressive take on the no-labels pro-rural messaging and a non-committal technocratic view on policy. But Buttigeig sounds like a human when he talks about it because he doesn't try to hide the values that would be the driving force behind everything he does.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,519
Beto is just like a human jar of mayonnaise at the moment. Maybe once Biden hops in he'll look better.

Michael Brooks made a good point yesterday, which is that if you want a young, charismatic white guy you should be looking at Pete. The only reason people aren't is because he's gay.
That's not fair.

He's a chipotle aioli. He sounds more interesting on the surface.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,831
How can you determine someone is a centrist if they have no plans, opinions, or policies?
One might argue, including me occasionally, that having no plans, opinions, or policies can be part of being a centrist. Stand for nothing, vote for whatever's convenient.

People on the left or the right tend to have solid convictions however much you agree or disagree with them. People in the middle, especially "moderate centrists", have few convictions at all except "let's work together".
 
Nov 7, 2017
11,740
One might argue, including me occasionally, that having no plans, opinions, or policies can be part of being a centrist. Stand for nothing, vote for whatever's convenient.

People on the left or the right tend to have solid convictions however much you agree or disagree with them. People in the middle, especially "moderate centrists", have few convictions at all except "let's work together".
.
 
Oct 29, 2017
916
One might argue, including me occasionally, that having no plans, opinions, or policies can be part of being a centrist. Stand for nothing, vote for whatever's convenient.

People on the left or the right tend to have solid convictions however much you agree or disagree with them. People in the middle, especially "moderate centrists", have few convictions at all except "let's work together".
Right, but I've seen him say over the past couple days that we need to act on climate change now, he wants universal healthcare, he wants to double the minimum wage, etc. So I guess, I'm just not sure where this "he has no positions" argument is coming from, or that he's a centrist. Is he a centrist because he wants to represent the country and not just Democrats? Is he a centrist because he's not a Democratic Socialist? What's the line here? His voting record has him solidly with the majority of Democrats.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/beto_orourke/412575
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,831
I think the Democratic majority or "mean" or even "median" is centrist, maybe center-left when I'm feeling charitable. It's fine you don't need to pay attention to me. I think anyone's who's not anti-capitalism is a centrist or has centrist tendencies (as people on the center-left do).
 
Oct 27, 2017
680
I think the Democratic majority or "mean" or even "median" is centrist, maybe center-left when I'm feeling charitable. It's fine you don't need to pay attention to me. I think anyone's who's not anti-capitalism is a centrist or has centrist tendencies (as people on the center-left do).
That's not how it works. That's not how it works at all. You can't call 60% of the population right wing, 35% centrist and 5% (and I'm being generous about the number of anti-capitalism believers) left wing. "centrist" means near the center of a political spectrum.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,831
That's not how it works. That's not how it works at all. You can't call 60% of the population right wing, 35% centrist and 5% (and I'm being generous about the number of anti-capitalism believers) left wing. "centrist" means near the center of a political spectrum.
And they're all close to the center because Bernie, Ilhan and AOC define the "left extremity" now. There are non-politicians who're even lefter than this batch, they're just not politically viable.
 

Neon Noir

Banned
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,260
That's not how it works. That's not how it works at all. You can't call 60% of the population right wing, 35% centrist and 5% (and I'm being generous about the number of anti-capitalism believers) left wing. "centrist" means near the center of a political spectrum.
Political beliefs are not defined by options presentable at the time, or else 44% of germans should have been killed at the end of world war 2 for good measure.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,831
Not everything that isn't extreme left is centrist...
They're centrist by virtue of their capitulation to PACs, to corporate interests, their support of banks during the financial crisis, their support of Israel, their funding of wars, their interventionist voting records, their refusal to call out white nationalism for what it is, their censuring of Maxine Waters and Omar Ilhan for breaking the norms of "civility", their general focus on decorum over substance, union ambivalence, incremental reformism, etc. It goes on.
 
Oct 29, 2017
916
I think the Democratic majority or "mean" or even "median" is centrist, maybe center-left when I'm feeling charitable. It's fine you don't need to pay attention to me. I think anyone's who's not anti-capitalism is a centrist or has centrist tendencies (as people on the center-left do).
No, I understand that view and why someone like Beto would not really be exciting to that group. I meant more of in general, I guess, I see people trying to peg him as Joe Biden 2.0 when he clearly isn't. It's like the only two lanes people think exist are Biden or Bernie.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,493
Centrist means nothing in particular. It's an average of positions or a self-assigned moniker. A centrist like Bloomberg can have extreme positions from both sides(nanny state, extremely pro-corporate, anti-gun type) so they become a centrist in aggregate. Then you have a Bill Clinton who really is a centrist in the sense that his policy positions are more of an average rather than exclusively left or right.

And then you have both siders that just say that they're inbetween to justify not knowing anything. And there's everything inbetween those extremes.

And the overall problem with the left right spectrum is that it's really an overly simplistic measure and its use wastes everyone involved's time because of its subjectivity.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,831
No, I understand that view and why someone like Beto would not really be exciting to that group. I meant more of in general, I guess, I see people trying to peg him as Joe Biden 2.0 when he clearly isn't. It's like the only two lanes people think exist are Biden or Bernie.
I know Harris and Buttigieg exist and Beto is no Buttigieg, not even a Harris. Of all the frontrunners, Beto is the closest to Biden, maybe he competes for that slot with Gillibrand but Gillibrand is kind of a non-presence in my mind.
 
Oct 27, 2017
680
They're centrist by virtue of their capitulation to PACs, to corporate interests, their support of banks during the financial crisis, their support of Israel, their funding of wars, their interventionist voting records, their refusal to call out white nationalism for what it is, their censuring of Maxine Waters and Omar Ilhan for breaking the norms of "civility", their general focus on decorum over substance, etc. It goes on.
We're not gonna get far here. You call everyone to the right of Sanders a centrist. That just doesn't reflect the reality accurately.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,831
We're not gonna get far here. You call everyone to the right of Sanders a centrist. That just doesn't reflect the reality accurately.
It doesn't need to, it only needs to reflect my views. I've listed some of the positions that matter to me, and how I view the world. If you want to publicly argue that supporting AIPAC can still be "left" in a relative sense, hey, knock yourself out. I'm going to be opposed to you on that though, forewarning.
 
Oct 29, 2017
916
I know Harris and Buttigieg exist and Beto is no Buttigieg, not even a Harris. Of all the frontrunners, Beto is the closest to Biden, maybe he competes for that slot with Gillibrand but Gillibrand is kind of a non-presence in my mind.
Eh. To me, Beto and Kamala are pretty interchangeable on their positions. She's more left on education than Beto, but more right on income inequality. Their other policies line up, for the most part.

Pete is left of both of them, for sure.
 
Jan 11, 2018
1,813
So as somebody who really doesn’t pay attention the two candidates I’m excited for are Warren and Harris. Anybody else I should keep an eye on?

Beto seems more like a VP nominee right now from the little I’ve seen. I appreciate his optimism and positive rhetoric but I worry he might be too centrist for me. Based on not nearly enough info though.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,831
Eh. To me, Beto and Kamala are pretty interchangeable on their positions. She's more left on education than Beto, but more right on income inequality. Their other policies line up, for the most part.

Pete is left of both of them, for sure.
Beto's a white man, Harris is a black woman. This immediately puts Beto far closer to Biden than Harris.
So as somebody who really doesn’t pay attention the two candidates I’m excited for are Warren and Harris. Anybody else I should keep an eye on?
Buttigieg is probably a dark horse.

(obligatory Bernie 2020 here)
 
Oct 27, 2017
680
Kinda funny that Beto went from a runaway train of popularity to a wet fart.
Don't mistake Bernie fans jumping on him for an accurate depiction of his popularity. I doubt anything changed since his announcement.

On a global scale it does.
They're running a presidential campaign in the US. I think the "compared to europe everything is right wing" schtick is an oversimplification, but it's also just not relevant here.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,716
I don't know how that remotely relates to the fact that the idea that everyone who disagrees with you is therefore a "centrist" or whatever dumbass pointless label people are using is ridiculously out of touch with reality.
 

Neon Noir

Banned
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,260
I don't know how that remotely relates to the fact that the idea that everyone who disagrees with you is therefore a "centrist" or whatever dumbass pointless label people are using is ridiculously out of touch with reality.
I just don't think you should be so quick to label things fantasy or dismiss them out of hand. Maybe there is something to these radical ideas you scoff at.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,831
Nah. World is composed of more than first world countries and even then it doesn't hold in europe where right/centrist means austerity which the democrats are not for.
https://www.cnbc.com/id/48913712
"I think Democrats proved that they have more first-class orators than the GOP tonight. But having listened to basically the entire night of speeches, including from the B-list workaday governers and congressfolks who aren't great orators, I couldn't help but notice something—in their rote lines, Democrats are embracing the role of the party of fiscal austerity.

"It's a role they got comfortable playing in the late Clinton years and all throughout the eight long years of Bush's big deficits and "irresponsible" tax cuts and wars-fought-with-borrowed money. And tonight I heard them happy to embrace that old role again. We stand for a responsible balanced approach to fiscal consolidation, they stand for profligate tax cuts for multi-millionaires."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-with-pelosi-in-key-early-vote-for-democrats
Progressive incoming House Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez plans to lay down an early marker with party leaders on Congress’s first day by voting against a package of legislative rules because it contains an austerity provision demanded by centrists.

The rules measure, set for a vote on Thursday when the new Congress convenes, will reimpose a "pay as you go" requirement that would allow challenges to legislation that adds to the deficit. The rules were negotiated by likely House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to satisfy concerns among members of the new the 235-member majority representing more conservative areas of the country.
They, as a bloc, are Keynesian sympathists at best.

They're not whole-hog Austrian School-Hayek Paintings but they're not exactly the New Deal Democrats anymore (and indeed this is the role AOC is carving out for herself).
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,716
I just don't think you should be so quick to label things fantasy or dismiss them out of hand. Maybe there is something to these radical ideas you scoff at.
No, I'm pretty sure there isn't. I'll continue to live in the actual world.
There is no near term reality wherein the US, or really any Western liberal democracy becomes "anti-capitalist".
There isn't even support for it, even if there was political leadership.
It's nice to want things, I guess.
 
Jan 11, 2018
1,813
Pete Buttigieg. Genuinely progressive candidate who deserves a hell of a lot more attention than he's getting now. Very articulate and smart as a whip, too.
Thanks, I’m going to try to educate myself a little more by the time of the primaries.

Beto's a white man, Harris is a black woman. This immediately puts Beto far closer to Biden than Harris.


Buttigieg is probably a dark horse.

(obligatory Bernie 2020 here)
Thanks, I’ll definitely try to look him up and get some perspective. I hope this isn’t a jerk question, but while I like Bernie is he too idealistic or do you think his views are practical enough in 2021 to work given the opposition?

(Vague, I’m sorry, but I don’t want to pretend to be more kbow
 

Neon Noir

Banned
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,260
No, I'm pretty sure there isn't. I'll continue to live in the actual world.
There is no near term reality wherein the US, or really any Western liberal democracy becomes "anti-capitalist".
Not explicitly. But you can work your way up to it. No better start than Bernie Sanders, a candidate who has vehemently opposed capitalism for most of his political life.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,831
There is no near term reality wherein the US, or really any Western liberal democracy becomes "anti-capitalist".
Sure, why do you think I support it? Because I want to make it happen, and it's going to take a long time so I better start now.

Like, waiting until common opinion already shifted to jump onto an anti-cap bandwagon is the job of moderates and independents, but starting that bandwagon is the job of leftists, like I consider myself to be.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,831
I hope this isn’t a jerk question, but while I like Bernie is he too idealistic or do you think his views are practical enough in 2021 to work given the opposition?
It'll be an uphill climb for sure but for me it's worth starting, because our problems don't end in 2021. There's 2024, 2028, 2032, and so on. If 2021 is your focus, Bernie may not be your best choice, and I don't mean that in a dick way.
 
Jan 11, 2018
1,813
It'll be an uphill climb for sure but for me it's worth starting, because our problems don't end in 2021. There's 2024, 2028, 2032, and so on. If 2021 is your focus, Bernie may not be your best choice, and I don't mean that in a dick way.
No offense taken. What I meant was if he would be able to push through his more progressive ideas in such a divisive political world, not that I’m against his ideas (I’m at least somewhat of a fan to be sure).