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2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate
- Thread starter pigeon
- Start date
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If you think that Bernie would do as bad as Dukakis is uh, not a take I would agree with.
Being divisive doesnt mean much if the party falls in line. Hillary was divisive as fuck but even with the Comey letter she was 100k voters away from winning. If you campaign well and inspire people, the party should be competent enough in terms of lining up and joining forces.
Sanders is confrontative, sure. But I dont see how thats a problem when hes fight for causes that make people like him more. All of the policies that he supports (GND, M4A, moderate gun reform, higher minimum wage) all poll really high so Its not like hes confrontative over useless topics.
Makes trump look young? How?? Bernie looks at least a decade younger (he does not look 78) while Trump always seems like hes one big mac away from death. Trump would look like a demented old man if you put him in stage next to Sanders.
"Othering" the other as a mad socialist doesnt work anymore. This isnt 1988 when Bush Sr targeted Dukakis as an elite liberal and destroyed him. People dont care anymore, people just want someone who appeals to them and offers them the possibility of a better country. Every single significant proposal by the democrats since social security has been labeled as socialist. Social Security, Medicare, the ACA...It. Always. Happens.
and Trump, even though hes coming from a "strong" economy, has a low approval rate for an economy that stable. That shows weakness. He is maybe the weakest president to run for reelection since Carter, and thats saying something.
TL:DR: I cant imagine Bernie losing against Trump and, if that actually happened, if would probably make me reconsider my entire polical ideology.
Bernie's socialism comes baked in. It's not like it's a secret; he self-identifies and that is extremely well-known information. And he still polls well. Now, I wouldn't say he polls well because of it, but despite it.
It's Biden's numbers that seem weaker to me. No way, no how is there any such thing as a "compromise" candidate for the country to rally around. At the end of the day, to the GOP cult, Biden will be a baby killer deep state child predator. And he will not inspire the base to turn out, too many skeletons in his closet that are meaningful to the modern Democratic base. And not enough of a strong personality cult to defend him. Widely liked but superficially so, benefitting strongly from being out of the spotlight.
I'd rather go with Bernie into a GE than Biden.
It's Biden's numbers that seem weaker to me. No way, no how is there any such thing as a "compromise" candidate for the country to rally around. At the end of the day, to the GOP cult, Biden will be a baby killer deep state child predator. And he will not inspire the base to turn out, too many skeletons in his closet that are meaningful to the modern Democratic base. And not enough of a strong personality cult to defend him. Widely liked but superficially so, benefitting strongly from being out of the spotlight.
I'd rather go with Bernie into a GE than Biden.
I think being concerned about Bernie or Biden's age is valid given the role of POTUS but saying they'd make Trump look young is a take I cannot fathom. Bernie hitting his head on a shower door aside, both men look fine.
Trump looks older and more worn down than ever.
Trump looks older and more worn down than ever.
Well, since we always talk about Biden the same way with the same handful of points let's just get an overall picture instead of pounding the same points, I think it's more interesting discussion than the usual. I'll skip the super-obvious stuff like being pro-choice:
Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Joe_Biden#Foreign_policy (Citations throughout) and http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Joe_Biden_Health_Care.htm https://www.iatp.org/news/bidens-record-on-trade
Healthcare:
He's stated in the past that he's for universal access and thinks money wasted on tax cuts would be better spent solving healthcare problems. He's never really made a plan of his own on healthcare and really only ever backed what was in front of him.
One quote of him defending the individual mandate:
He doesn't really have a history making progress on healthcare. Personally, I think he'd just sign whatever makes it to his desk.
Law Enforcement:
-Pro capital punishment (Shit, I hope his stance has changed), but he did at least vote against limiting appeals of death penalty cases.
-Wrote Crime bill (shit, but we all know why)
-Pro banning smoking in all public places
-Voted multiple times against increasing penalties for drug-related offenses.
-Wrote a bill to decrease punishments for possession of crack cocaine
-Just found this funny but: wrote a bill to criminalize unflagged submarines(because drug runner were using them).
Personal thoughts: Overall shit on crime issues, but there's glimmers in there that are OK.
Education:
-Very pro teacher unions (Biden is consistently pro union, at least)
-Pro smaller class sizes, suggests teachers should be paid more to attract more people into the profession.
-Voted for no child left behind despite criticizing it, said it was a mistake afterward because it under-funds education.
Environment:
-Co-sponsored Bernie's own 2007 global warming pollution reduction act
-Voted against drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
-Voted no on defunding renewable energy.
-Voted no on a nuclear waste repository (This is a particularly shitty thing for me, but I know almost every other candidate would do the same)
-Said he supported clean coal in 2008
-Supports cap-and-trade
-Pushed for international treaties on climate change.
-Generally pro renewables.
Personal aside: All candidates are shit on this without nuclear, but beyond that "clean coal" comment Biden is pretty consistently as green as anyone in the race. Which means he's shit to me, but others might find that good. Wouldn't surprise me if he genuinely supports the GND.
Gun issues:
-Has sponsored bills to ban assault weapons and has argued in favor of that many times.
-Voted against the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act which basically made it so that gun companies that gun companies can't be sued because their guns were used in crimes(it passed anyway, but at least he voted against it).
-Basically has voted for every single gun control bill available and has created a few, voted against loosening gun control at every step.
-Had that double barrel shotgun is better for home defense anyway comment that kinda gives away that while he's for gun control he's about where Bernie is on it.
Personal aside: Basically Bernie on this issue. Which isn't good but they'd both let any gun control that has a possibility of making it to their desk through so... *Shrug*
Homeland security:
-Wrote an anti-terrorist bill after Oklahoma City Bombing
-Says his anti-terrorist bill was essentially the proto-patriot act
-Voted to limit wiretapping on the patriot act but otherwise supported it.
-Voted to preserve habeas corpus for Guantanamo detainees.
-ACLU gives him a 60% approval rating for his career, citing civil rights issues.
Personal aside: Yeah, shit. Like, at least his shitty patriot act bill was in response to a terrorist attack by a white guy instead of motivated by arabs. And that's about all I can say positive about that.
Oh, and the habeas corpus bit is nice.
Immigration:
-Voted to provide social security to illegal immigrants and supports a path to citizenship
-Supports guest-worker visas.
-Voted for the 2006 Secure Fence act that allowed 700 miles of fencing along the southern border.
Personal aside: Mostly good other than the secure fence act. Though, you can pretty much guarantee that anything involving a fence or wall isn't getting to his desk through a dem congress now, at least.
Internet:
-Sponsored bills to ban encryption in 1991.
-Generally supports anything that gives the government more control of the internet.
Personal aside: Straight shit.
LGBTQ:
-Voted for DOMA
-Voted against FMA(Constitutional amendment DOMA)
-Supported don't ask don't tell
-Favors adding sexual orientation as a criteria for a hate crime since 2007
-Supported civil unions
-Finally came out in support of gay marriage in 2012.
Personal aside: DOMA is absolute shit. It's overall shit with a couple of better-than-nothing spots. I hate it, but that's pretty much where most people were at the times.
Religion:
Women's issues (Besides being a huggy creeper):
-Drafted the Violence Against Women Act act in 1994
-Anita fucking Hill. At least he says he regrets it. But... yeah.
Personal: On the one hand, the violence against women act is really good. On the other hand, Anita Fucking Hill. Also feel like Biden is "most likely to get me too'd" out of the candidates.
Agriculture:
-Supported the Farm Bill
-Apparently a big advocate of fighting against invasive species, thinks they're one of the biggest threats to the economy and environment.
Personal: Eh.
Economy:
-Sponsored bankruptcy legislation that his biggest donor also supported. Bill Clinton vetoed it after it passed both chambers overwhelmingly. Passed in 2005.
-Voted for NAFTA
-Opposed CAFTA because it didn't enforce labor and environmental standards.
-Generally supports free trade.
Trade policy is generally:
-Supports balanced budget amendment(Not what it sounds like, a lot of European countries have it, including France and Germany)
Personal aside: Like him on trade, but that bank vote...
Unions:
-American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations gives him an 85% rating. Basically he's pro-union. It's a major part of his identity as a politician so... Well, duh.
Foreign policy:
-Was charman of Seante Foreign Relations Committee
-Iraq
-Supported deployment of drops to Darfur.
-Opposed financing of those abstinence-only programs to combat aids in Africa, and opposed Bush's mandate that one third of all funds for HIV-AIDs prevention be tied to abstinence only programs (Instead of, you know, curing and treating AIDs).
-Was pro-libyan intervention.
-Iraq
-Favored aggressive negotiation with Iran, basically direct talks with all five permanent members of the un security council present.
-Voted against declaring the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps a terrorist org. Also called the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps terrorists in Israeli media and blamed Bush for not calling it one months later.
-"War with Iran is not just a bad option. It would be a disaster." -Biden 2007
-Threatened to impeach Bush if he started a war with Iran.
-Wanted direct talks with North Korea
-Anti-Russia for the most part except for when Obama was pushing for normalization (but even then he was critical).
-Pro cuban embargo.
Israel:
-Called himself a Zionist.
-Brown noses Israel at every opportunity.
-Supports two state solution
-
-On aipac:
Personal: One of the worst candidates on foreign policy. Like 90% of his foreign policy opinions and actions are trash. The few that aren't aren't unique to him.
Anywho, that's basically who Biden is.
Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Joe_Biden#Foreign_policy (Citations throughout) and http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Joe_Biden_Health_Care.htm https://www.iatp.org/news/bidens-record-on-trade
Healthcare:
He's stated in the past that he's for universal access and thinks money wasted on tax cuts would be better spent solving healthcare problems. He's never really made a plan of his own on healthcare and really only ever backed what was in front of him.
One quote of him defending the individual mandate:
He doesn't really have a history making progress on healthcare. Personally, I think he'd just sign whatever makes it to his desk.
Law Enforcement:
-Pro capital punishment (Shit, I hope his stance has changed), but he did at least vote against limiting appeals of death penalty cases.
-Wrote Crime bill (shit, but we all know why)
-Pro banning smoking in all public places
-Voted multiple times against increasing penalties for drug-related offenses.
-Wrote a bill to decrease punishments for possession of crack cocaine
-Wanted increased penalties for people dealing drugs near schools.
-Just found this funny but: wrote a bill to criminalize unflagged submarines(because drug runner were using them).
Personal thoughts: Overall shit on crime issues, but there's glimmers in there that are OK.
Education:
-Very pro teacher unions (Biden is consistently pro union, at least)
-Pro smaller class sizes, suggests teachers should be paid more to attract more people into the profession.
-Voted for no child left behind despite criticizing it, said it was a mistake afterward because it under-funds education.
Environment:
-Co-sponsored Bernie's own 2007 global warming pollution reduction act
-Voted against drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
-Voted no on defunding renewable energy.
-Voted no on a nuclear waste repository (This is a particularly shitty thing for me, but I know almost every other candidate would do the same)
-Said he supported clean coal in 2008
-Supports cap-and-trade
-Pushed for international treaties on climate change.
-Generally pro renewables.
Personal aside: All candidates are shit on this without nuclear, but beyond that "clean coal" comment Biden is pretty consistently as green as anyone in the race. Which means he's shit to me, but others might find that good. Wouldn't surprise me if he genuinely supports the GND.
Gun issues:
-Has sponsored bills to ban assault weapons and has argued in favor of that many times.
-Voted against the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act which basically made it so that gun companies that gun companies can't be sued because their guns were used in crimes(it passed anyway, but at least he voted against it).
-Basically has voted for every single gun control bill available and has created a few, voted against loosening gun control at every step.
-Had that double barrel shotgun is better for home defense anyway comment that kinda gives away that while he's for gun control he's about where Bernie is on it.
Personal aside: Basically Bernie on this issue. Which isn't good but they'd both let any gun control that has a possibility of making it to their desk through so... *Shrug*
Homeland security:
-Wrote an anti-terrorist bill after Oklahoma City Bombing
-Says his anti-terrorist bill was essentially the proto-patriot act
-Voted to limit wiretapping on the patriot act but otherwise supported it.
-Voted to preserve habeas corpus for Guantanamo detainees.
-ACLU gives him a 60% approval rating for his career, citing civil rights issues.
Personal aside: Yeah, shit. Like, at least his shitty patriot act bill was in response to a terrorist attack by a white guy instead of motivated by arabs. And that's about all I can say positive about that.
Oh, and the habeas corpus bit is nice.
Immigration:
-Voted to provide social security to illegal immigrants and supports a path to citizenship
-Supports guest-worker visas.
-Voted for the 2006 Secure Fence act that allowed 700 miles of fencing along the southern border.
Personal aside: Mostly good other than the secure fence act. Though, you can pretty much guarantee that anything involving a fence or wall isn't getting to his desk through a dem congress now, at least.
Internet:
-Sponsored bills to ban encryption in 1991.
-Generally supports anything that gives the government more control of the internet.
Personal aside: Straight shit.
LGBTQ:
-Voted for DOMA
-Voted against FMA(Constitutional amendment DOMA)
-Supported don't ask don't tell
-Favors adding sexual orientation as a criteria for a hate crime since 2007
-Supported civil unions
-Finally came out in support of gay marriage in 2012.
Personal aside: DOMA is absolute shit. It's overall shit with a couple of better-than-nothing spots. I hate it, but that's pretty much where most people were at the times.
Religion:
Personal: I like the quote.Women's issues (Besides being a huggy creeper):
-Drafted the Violence Against Women Act act in 1994
-Anita fucking Hill. At least he says he regrets it. But... yeah.
Personal: On the one hand, the violence against women act is really good. On the other hand, Anita Fucking Hill. Also feel like Biden is "most likely to get me too'd" out of the candidates.
Agriculture:
-Supported the Farm Bill
-Apparently a big advocate of fighting against invasive species, thinks they're one of the biggest threats to the economy and environment.
Personal: Eh.
Economy:
-Sponsored bankruptcy legislation that his biggest donor also supported. Bill Clinton vetoed it after it passed both chambers overwhelmingly. Passed in 2005.
-Voted for NAFTA
-Opposed CAFTA because it didn't enforce labor and environmental standards.
-Generally supports free trade.
Trade policy is generally:
-Anti-tax cut
-Supports balanced budget amendment(Not what it sounds like, a lot of European countries have it, including France and Germany)
Personal aside: Like him on trade, but that bank vote...
Unions:
-American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations gives him an 85% rating. Basically he's pro-union. It's a major part of his identity as a politician so... Well, duh.
Foreign policy:
-Was charman of Seante Foreign Relations Committee
-Iraq
-Supported deployment of drops to Darfur.
-Opposed financing of those abstinence-only programs to combat aids in Africa, and opposed Bush's mandate that one third of all funds for HIV-AIDs prevention be tied to abstinence only programs (Instead of, you know, curing and treating AIDs).
-Was pro-libyan intervention.
-Iraq
-Favored aggressive negotiation with Iran, basically direct talks with all five permanent members of the un security council present.
-Voted against declaring the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps a terrorist org. Also called the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps terrorists in Israeli media and blamed Bush for not calling it one months later.
-"War with Iran is not just a bad option. It would be a disaster." -Biden 2007
-Threatened to impeach Bush if he started a war with Iran.
-Wanted direct talks with North Korea
-Anti-Russia for the most part except for when Obama was pushing for normalization (but even then he was critical).
-Pro cuban embargo.
Israel:
-Called himself a Zionist.
-Brown noses Israel at every opportunity.
-Supports two state solution
-
*Roll eyes*
-On aipac:
-Has called on Israel to dismantle outposts and allow palestinians freedom of movement, called on Palestinians to combat terror and incitement against Israel
Personal: One of the worst candidates on foreign policy. Like 90% of his foreign policy opinions and actions are trash. The few that aren't aren't unique to him.
Anywho, that's basically who Biden is.
I think the guy cares about his ego enough that I think it would make him feel more important to attend.
I knew Sirota was terrible but I didn't know his greatest hits included race baiting.
More grossness about Sirota at the link. What an absolute garbage person.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic..._TSxhhiOjuhsHa5w8QXcvC-09izKzbpAdsdJ4mEAQ9abg
More grossness about Sirota at the link. What an absolute garbage person.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic..._TSxhhiOjuhsHa5w8QXcvC-09izKzbpAdsdJ4mEAQ9abg
I answered a couple posts after that, but of the top candidates it's Buttigieg, Sanders, and Warren.
Those are the 3 who aren't going to stand up in front of their country and lie through their teeth, and they're the three that have the policies/ideas the country needs.
If we're talking realistic to beat Trump, at the moment it'd be Sanders. Maybe Warren can get something going though I'm not going to write her off yet. And Buttigieg is going to blow up imo once he gets his name and ideas out there.
The good news here is that Im 99% sure that if any of these 3 win it, the other 2 will get behind that person 100%. And the same for a majority of the voters.
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Looks like he edited this post to change "transgender men and women" to "transgender people" in order to remove the binary language and be more inclusive. I am really, really glad that he did this, as it's clear he heeded someone's advice on the correction and we need to move away from binary, gendered language when addressing a general group of people comprised of mixed gender/non-gender identities.
I struggle with wanting Warren. I think she's great on policy, but she would do horribly in a general election and probably give us another 4 years of Trump
Pretty much my list, though I'd probably flip Pete and Warren by the narrowest of margins.
You are so wrong about Beto, but I'm not surprised as I see those comments on Beto circling around Bernie circles
I mean, not saying Beto is a progressive, but he clearly says and stands for things, memes aside.
Though I'll continue to state that he needs a policy page on his site. Hopefully his official kickoff rally at the end of the month will bring a front-and-center policy platform. Save us the guesswork from looking at his senate run positions.
My ranking:
1. Bernie
2. Pete
3. Warren
4. Beto
5. Harris
Normally I would've had Harris above Beto, but I've been souring. Beto still has plenty of time to disappoint me though.
Though I'll continue to state that he needs a policy page on his site. Hopefully his official kickoff rally at the end of the month will bring a front-and-center policy platform. Save us the guesswork from looking at his senate run positions.
My ranking:
1. Bernie
2. Pete
3. Warren
4. Beto
5. Harris
Normally I would've had Harris above Beto, but I've been souring. Beto still has plenty of time to disappoint me though.
It's a shame his Senate policy page still isn't up. Realistically though only like 2 candidates have policy pages at this point and he's been running for a much shorter time than anyone else.
Sorry, Beto stands for flip-flopping on single-payer. Should've said that.
He still supports a single payer option if you want it. Afaik you can keep your employer provided healthcare or use the Medicare option
Sanders has been lying through his teeth though.
He lied about releasing his taxes and he lied about the kind of campaign he was going to run this time vs. last. His hiring of Sirota-- a shady attack dog with a history of lying himself in order to misrepresent candidates of rival campaigns-- is disqualifying imo.
Right. If any other candidate set up a family grifting operation they'd be rightly raked over the coals.
I didn't mention it above because it was about the question of lying to voters to their faces or not, though I guess you could make the argument that the Sanders Institute was such a dishonest operation that it sort of falls under the same umbrella.
It'd be interesting to see what homophobic attacks and dog whistles the GOP would use to attack Mayor Pete. I think a lot of it would go over pretty poorly.
I also can't wait for the inevitable CNN/MSNBC interview where he's told "you don't seem/sound gay"
It is worth noting that Medicare for America is a plan put forward by two Democrats. It might ultimately only be a stopgap solution.. who knows, but it's better than what exists now and moonshots are rarely realistic promises. I think having a plan in mind that actually could receive some broad support is far more important in the short term when it comes to healthcare.
1. He should release his taxes. He said "soon".
2. I don't know what you're talking about with the "kind of campaign" this time vs last. Are you talking about him not running a "negative" campaign here? Clinton accused him of that for this ad. Ok? Otherwise clarify please.
3. Sirota did a shitty thing. I don't like him for doing that shitty thing personally. He apologized. Person he did it to says he doesn't judge Sirota today on something he did 20 years ago. I still will. Fuck anyone that would do that. However, he's not Sanders and I'm not going to judge Sanders for it. If he thinks hiring him was the right move then great. I hope he was right.
Basically none of that is "lying" to me except the first thing. He needs to release his taxes asap or yeah I'd consider that a lie. He has to, to shut people up and because he said he would.
Edit: I would give him until somewhere right around April 15th for the taxes. I imagine while doing this years they can get them all ready for release. If they're still not out by end of April I won't be a happy camper.
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I have no desire to see it. Also I have no faith in our country to not listen to their personal ignorance. People couldn't even handle the prospect of a woman president in 2016 for God's sake. We suck.
Sanders
Warren
Buttigieg
Williamson
Beto
Anyone else, I really don't want to have to vote for in the general election. I'm not sold on Beto, really, but he's moved up passed Harris on my list.
This is disqualifying for me. The signaling in this, and the toadying to AIPAC, nah. This is an easy issue in the 2020 primary. You don't have to be in the tank for an abusive ethnostate.
Warren
Buttigieg
Williamson
Beto
Anyone else, I really don't want to have to vote for in the general election. I'm not sold on Beto, really, but he's moved up passed Harris on my list.
This is disqualifying for me. The signaling in this, and the toadying to AIPAC, nah. This is an easy issue in the 2020 primary. You don't have to be in the tank for an abusive ethnostate.
I'm utterly flabbergasted by these posts. How, in any world, is Bernie a worse candidate than Joe "Strom Thurmond was a good dude" Biden and Kamala "AIPAC comes to my home to say hey" Harris? He's the only candidate who's actually critical of capitalism as a system. Even Warren, who positions herself as a hero for the working class, believes that capitalism is ultimately a force for good.
As for Beto, what does her actually offer outside of vague pablum about "unity" and "healing divisions". Any candidate that advocates for decorum over principles has already lost. The right doesn't care about bipartisanship or any other of that drivel. We won't get anywhere unless we stop pandering to centrists and liberals who aren't actually interested in dismantling systems of oppression.
Want to fight fascism?
MOVE LEFT!
As for Beto, what does her actually offer outside of vague pablum about "unity" and "healing divisions". Any candidate that advocates for decorum over principles has already lost. The right doesn't care about bipartisanship or any other of that drivel. We won't get anywhere unless we stop pandering to centrists and liberals who aren't actually interested in dismantling systems of oppression.
Want to fight fascism?
MOVE LEFT!
I think this is a great post and an accurate look at where we are. I really think the best way to fight far right authoritarianism is by moving farther left.
Bernie doesn't want to change our economic model from capitalism anymore than Warren. In fact a lot of Warren's policy proposals in the past few months have shown she's moved even further to the left.
This kind of details make Bernie so important to me
Looks like he edited this post to change "transgender men and women" to "transgender people" in order to remove the binary language and be more inclusive. I am really, really glad that he did this, as it's clear he heeded someone's advice on the correction and we need to move away from binary, gendered language when addressing a general group of people comprised of mixed gender/non-gender identities.
there are some people who just have an irrational hatred for Bernie and will contort in all sorts of strange ways to make everything regarding him into a negative. this thread is one big shining example of that.
Well said. I hope people just for once see through the bullshit and we get a president worth having.
The more frustration I see toward Bernie or Kamala or Beto, the more I think mayor Pete is the compromise candidate we all need.
Yes. Medicare for all is a distraction because it has 0% chance of passing the senate. I'd rather focus on things the president cna actually do than promise policy that we won't see for a decade.
Oh, if he gets to a point where he has a reasonable chance you know people will be shitting all over him. Personally, not very fond of electing someone whose background consists of only mayor straight to the presidency.
Anyway, for the majority of dem voters any candidate would be fine. Most don't hate any of them(except Tulsi, she has either negative or very close to negative favorables with dems IIRC).
Personally, I view multipayer as the better option that will harm the least number of people and help the most.
Maybe. To me from what I've seen of him so far I wouldn't even consider him a "compromise" really. He seems to be Bernie Sanders without the (irrational imo) hate.
The only issue I really have is people propping him up to take votes from Sanders when they have no intention of actually voting for either. I hope this is not happening but fear it is/will.
I'd like to think that's the case, but I see way too many impassioned manifestos for/against any given candidate to have confidence in that. Like, if we're truly fine with anyone we should all take a deep breath and relax until Tulsi surges to 30%.
I don't mean compromise in the sense that he's out of line with someone's views, but just in the sense that he might be someone's 2nd or 3rd choice at the moment.
I'm not talking about posters. I'm talking about average joe voter.
Personally, I dislike all of them to varying extents.
It's such a blatantly craven and dishonest move on its own that it would make me take a long hard look at any candidate who pulled that shit, but yeah, the specific group she did that for puts her at the absolute bottom of the pack for me along with Biden. I'll still vote for her if she gets the nomination, but I hope it doesn't come to that.
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