2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate

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lmcfigs

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,043
You know, part of me has to wonder why Williamson is running and running on what she is. I like that we're having the conversation on reparations, but what gave her the idea to run in the first place?
if we're being cynical: she cold be playing the Ben Carson/ Trump role of trying to make money. She may be looking for an advisor role for the next president. Or maybe she's doing what Bernie did last time and trying to push the party left? who knows.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,012
2 clowns are arguing on twitter about reparations
ADOS hashtag completely unsurprising from the person complaining about "Identity Politics" while swearing that they're totally not the same arguments as the right wingers doing it.
Like I said, I'd love a link to a source so I know this is not just what you think. For example, if someone reading your post didn't know what you meant by leftist, they're likely to Google it. The definition:
https://imgur.com/gxXy6Qa

Nowhere does that say "non-capitalist". Most people I've asked seem to think being to the left and a leftist are the same thing. Maybe a leftist is like an "extreme" version of someone who is just "leaning to the left". But I can't find anything that specially says calling yourself leftist means you're non-capitalist.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/left This definition is basically in line with my understanding. The socialism/communism/etc. divide is what separates it from the rest of the general left half of the political spectrum.
 

lmcfigs

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,043
ADOS hashtag completely unsurprising from the person complaining about "Identity Politics" while swearing that they're totally not the same arguments as the right wingers doing it.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/left This definition is basically in line with my understanding. The socialism/communism/etc. divide is what separates it from the rest of the general left half of the political spectrum.
I don't think she is part of that movement tbh. I think she's trying to bring attention to the idea that "paying for reparations" is not actually a proposal for what the ADOS people are advocating. I thought for sure you'd agree with this since you're usually very discerning of these things.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,012
I don't think she is part of that movement tbh. I think she's trying to bring attention to the idea that "paying for reparations" is not actually a proposal. I thought for sure you'd agree with this since you're usually very discerning of these things.
Actively engaging with the policies a "Spiritual Advisor" running for President is possibly the least productive thing you could ever do.

I made the comment because of that article that got posted a few days ago by her that I found to be completely terrible and which reeked of social conservatism, which ADOS sadly seems to have turned into.
 

lmcfigs

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,043
Actively engaging with the policies a "Spiritual Advisor" running for President is possibly the least productive thing you could ever do.

I made the comment because of that article that got posted a few days ago by her that I found to be completely terrible and which reeked of social conservatism, which ADOS sadly seems to have turned into.
Oh I see. It does seem like a waste of time.

I can’t say I know much about ADOS, though.
 

Mercury Fred

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,079
You know, part of me has to wonder why Williamson is running and running on what she is. I like that we're having the conversation on reparations, but what gave her the idea to run in the first place?
I think this interview lays out her argument for running and what she's about fairly well. It's pretty long though.


no brie slander in this thread please
I mean she an editor for Intercept, so "clown" doesn't seem that far off to me.
 
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RailWays

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,789
While I don't agree with Williamson's assessment in giving a large cash sum to "black leaders," she is pretty much the only candidate that wants to bring forth a substantive dialogue for reparations. That's more than the rest of the candidates.

Point is, candidates need to detail some targeted policies specific to the racial disparities.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
469
Obama didn't have two years of full control, that's a Fox News talking point. Between fighting in court to seat Al Franken, the death of Ted Kennedy, etc. Obama had exactly four months of a super-majority, with people like Joe Lieberman in Congress with the sole power to block anything, since they needed every single Democratic vote.

My fear is that we're going to get a repeat of everything we just did regardless, but have even less to show for it. Is Joe Manchin going to vote for Medicare for All or a Green New Deal? If Obama's only lasting accomplishment is that people with pre-existing conditions can't be denied healthcare, (and the very suggestion of such is now political poison) than, imo, it was all worth it. That one issue is more important to me than pretty much any accomplishment any other president going back to LBJ can claim.
It's true that he didn't have "complete" control but this was entirely of the Democrats own making, because they ignored the left-flank again. Had the filibuster been eliminated, which it was within their power to do from the very beginning of the session, all those long, agonizing months shuffling through various ideas to try and get Joe Lieberman on board wouldn't have had to happen, and neither, frankly, would the stimulus package had to have been handicapped to get Republican votes, but I could go down a long list on this one. The point is, these struggles only happen because the left of the party shouting "just fucking stop compromising, let's rewrite these rules and get some shit done" were ignored in favor of working across the aisle, decorum, traditions, etc. The House actually passed a version of the healthcare bill that was appreciably more left-wing than the one that muddled through the Senate, and had we thrown the filibuster out from the get-go, we could've had that one instead.

Anyway, my point is, if we had infinite time, taking ten years to get a single mild healthcare regulation package passed with nothing else to show for it after following a Republican presidency, might be good enough, but we don't, so it really isn't. You mention the (great) fact that part of the reason what remains of Obamacare is still standing is because getting rid of it is political poison now - exactly so! If we empowered unions, they would fight a proceeding Republican administration from taking that power away. If we gave people free healthcare, they would realize its value after the dust settled and fight a Republican administration that tried to take it away. If you gave people higher wages, they couldn't just take them back. If you started pumping trillions of dollars into massive infrastructure projects from end-to-end of the country paid for by taxing rich assholes, Republicans couldn't easily just come in and put an end to it. Obamacare was a terrible compromise in the end but it did cover millions more people and protect even more, and people realize they like that, and Republicans have as much trouble taking it away as they do with Medicare and Social Security.

With bold left-wing policy, with the intent on forcing through big changes that materially benefit people's lives, you will engage people in politics and successfully defend those things when Republicans try to roll them back. The more incremental you are, the less people notice what you're actually doing for them, and the easier it is to erase that progress.
 

pepe_silvia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
50
ADOS hashtag completely unsurprising from the person complaining about "Identity Politics" while swearing that they're totally not the same arguments as the right wingers doing it.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/left This definition is basically in line with my understanding. The socialism/communism/etc. divide is what separates it from the rest of the general left half of the political spectrum.
That's just wrong. Leftism doesn't equal socialism. You can be leftist and want socialist programs, but not full blown socialism. By your logic leftist means communist. And then where's the nuance between socialism and communism? You can't be a socialist and a communist which you seem to be implying when you say leftist.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,012
That's just wrong. Leftism doesn't equal socialism. You can be leftist and want socialist programs, but not full blown socialism. By your logic leftist means communist. And then where's the nuance between socialism and communism? You can't be a socialist and a communist which you seem to be implying when you say leftist.
Yes, it also means socialist. It's socialist OR communist. Not the "wants social democratic capitalism" kind of socialist, the one that wants a radical change. That's where the divide is between "leftist" and everyone else on the left half of the axis.
 

pepe_silvia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
50
Yes, it also means socialist. It's socialist OR communist. Not the "wants social democratic capitalism" kind of socialist, the one that wants a radical change. That's where the divide is between "leftist" and everyone else on the left half of the axis.
So if someone said they're a leftist, how do you know if they're a socialist or communist?
 

sphagnum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
That's just wrong. Leftism doesn't equal socialism. You can be leftist and want socialist programs, but not full blown socialism. By your logic leftist means communist. And then where's the nuance between socialism and communism? You can't be a socialist and a communist which you seem to be implying when you say leftist.
What are you talking about? Of course you can be a socialist and a communist. Socialism is workers' control of the means of production. Communism is a system in which workers' control of the means of production has led to the abolition of the state. Communists are socialists by default.

In Marx's time the terms were literally synonymous.
 

pepe_silvia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
50
What are you talking about? Of course you can be a socialist and a communist. Socialism is workers' control of the means of production. Communism is a system in which workers' control of the means of production has led to the abolition of the state. Communists are socialists by default.

In Marx's time the terms were literally synonymous.
Well in our time, communism is typically linked with a totalitarian government.
 
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sphagnum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Well in our time, communism is typically linked with a totalitarian government. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't heard any self-identifying leftists clamor for recently.
That is an incorrect definition caused by the Cold War. The United States wanted to link communism to the USSR to stem the tide of workers' interest in socialism at home, and the USSR promoted itself as socialist on the path to communism to gain legitimacy among its citizens. Neither was correct.

Chomsky describes it well here: https://chomsky.info/1986____/

When the world’s two great propaganda systems agree on some doctrine, it requires some intellectual effort to escape its shackles. One such doctrine is that the society created by Lenin and Trotsky and moulded further by Stalin and his successors has some relation to socialism in some meaningful or historically accurate sense of this concept. In fact, if there is a relation, it is the relation of contradiction.

It is clear enough why both major propaganda systems insist upon this fantasy. Since its origins, the Soviet State has attempted to harness the energies of its own population and oppressed people elsewhere in the service of the men who took advantage of the popular ferment in Russia in 1917 to seize State power. One major ideological weapon employed to this end has been the claim that the State managers are leading their own society and the world towards the socialist ideal; an impossibility, as any socialist — surely any serious Marxist — should have understood at once (many did), and a lie of mammoth proportions as history has revealed since the earliest days of the Bolshevik regime. The taskmasters have attempted to gain legitimacy and support by exploiting the aura of socialist ideals and the respect that is rightly accorded them, to conceal their own ritual practice as they destroyed every vestige of socialism.

As for the world’s second major propaganda system, association of socialism with the Soviet Union and its clients serves as a powerful ideological weapon to enforce conformity and obedience to the State capitalist institutions, to ensure that the necessity to rent oneself to the owners and managers of these institutions will be regarded as virtually a natural law, the only alternative to the ‘socialist’ dungeon.

The Soviet leadership thus portrays itself as socialist to protect its right to wield the club, and Western ideologists adopt the same pretense in order to forestall the threat of a more free and just society. This joint attack on socialism has been highly effective in undermining it in the modern period.
 

weirder

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
2,676
🇨🇦 🌎 🌌
You know, part of me has to wonder why Williamson is running and running on what she is. I like that we're having the conversation on reparations, but what gave her the idea to run in the first place?
She has metaphysical beliefs that paying reparations will heal a wound in the national consciousness which is a source of racial problems that will continue if not addressed. She makes comparisons with Germany in her reparation talks. Despite her unusual metaphysically sourced ethic her spiritual leadership in the matter appears to reflect a reality on the ground.
If she can make other candidates promise as president to do it in the primary then that would be just as good to achieve that goal.
She's been involved in spirituality and politics for awhile.

It's visionary to imagine the start of her second term if she manages to push through 100s of billions of reparation payments in a set amount of years. That it is about to be dealt with for all generations to come. It's amazing to consider. Reparations as its own thing in conjunction with the introduction of Yang's UBI proposals to offset distress in other demos would be nation changing.
I'd be happy with living next door to President Williamson USA. Wish I could donate, register and vote for her. Might buy a button.
 

Wonderment

Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,714
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Tukarrs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
935

It'll definitely save him money. The field is pretty crowded already. I think a lot of people realize there's no way they can compete.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,012

It'll definitely save him money. The field is pretty crowded already. I think a lot of people realize there's no way they can compete.
He was putting in a massive amount of money behind the scenes in 2018 and I think the cost:benefit ratio probably ultimately led him to do this, especially with Beto/Biden/Harris all in the race as not-Bernie options.
 

Nocturnal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,087
She has metaphysical beliefs that paying reparations will heal a wound in the national consciousness which is a source of racial problems that will continue if not addressed. She makes comparisons with Germany in her reparation talks. Despite her unusual metaphysically sourced ethic her spiritual leadership in the matter appears to reflect a reality on the ground.
If she can make other candidates promise as president to do it in the primary then that would be just as good to achieve that goal.
She's been involved in spirituality and politics for awhile.

It's visionary to imagine the start of her second term if she manages to push through 100s of billions of reparation payments in a set amount of years. That it is about to be dealt with for all generations to come. It's amazing to consider. Reparations as its own thing in conjunction with the introduction of Yang's UBI proposals to offset distress in other demos would be nation changing.
I'd be happy with living next door to President Williamson USA. Wish I could donate, register and vote for her. Might buy a button.
I agree in terms of her views - although I'd personally expand them beyond the US. From a karmic view doing something to reverse the amount of vile things the US & most of Western Europe have done to to the World could end up being extremely helpful in healing certain wounds that would otherwise stay open. Can't see this happening thought, France, Spain, UK, US, Portugal, Holland etc haven't really rectified the fucked up things that make up their history. In the end if we were to view things spiritually the World won't be healed until certain people continue to trumped and not repairing the damage done to African Americans, Native Americans, Asians, Africans, Aborigines - the World won't still be at a dis-balance. In the end much of the Wealth is concentrated in the West, and people who serve corporate or state interests control much of the wealth elsewhere. This is one of the reasons I feel the bigger topic about wealth inequality is addressing it at a Global scale and there needs to be a leader that leads this agenda.

Still I think she has no chance to win the democratic primary, hope she is on the debate floor and there I might change my tune
 

brainchild

GameXplain
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
6,656
Minnesota
I respect Williamson for pushing the conversation about reparations, but that's about it. That's not a legislative plan, and she knows it, and at this point, I don't think she cares. But whatever.

And she can keep all that spiritual woo bullshit. As an atheist and secular humanist, all of that shit is just plain old creepy to me, and it seems to be the foundation of her political beliefs, which is a bit off-putting to me, personally.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,758
Ann Arbor, MI
People under-estimate just how strongly opposed people are to a 79 year old nominee.

You could hand me the perfect candidate but if they were 79? Fuck no. I want someone who isn't likely to die on the job or become mentally unable to fufill the duties of the job to fullest of the next 8 years. And with a 79 man odds are you are either going to die or become mentally incapacitated by the time you hit 86.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,209
I just left a hipster coffee shop in downtown LA and I overheard some liberal college women talking about how Bernie was "too old".
 
OP
OP
pigeon

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,585
People under-estimate just how strongly opposed people are to a 79 year old nominee.

You could hand me the perfect candidate but if they were 79? Fuck no. I want someone who isn't likely to die on the job or become mentally unable to fufill the duties of the job to fullest of the next 8 years. And with a 79 man odds are you are either going to die or become mentally incapacitated by the time you hit 86.
It’s a super unpopular opinion to express but to be totally honest my feelings on this subject suffered a sharp left turn when Hillary got pneumonia and collapsed and for like four hours we genuinely didn’t know if she was okay.

Basically I don’t ever want to have to worry that my candidate might die during the run up to the election because given how stupid the American system is there’s a 50% chance we’d throw the whole election away and a 50% chance we’d spend four years being governed by a corpse because some weird Senate rule prevents the VP from taking over.
 
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pigeon

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,585
Also not to put too fine a point on it I want a candidate that understands two factor authentication, although I’m not sure any of the current ones qualify
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,758
Ann Arbor, MI
Bernie needs to be asked nonstop where his 10 years of taxes are. It's absurd he has been wishy-washy on when releasing them for the past 4 years.
 

Slackerish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
253
Michigan

Bernie pledges his allegiance to the one true party and the rightful rulers of the seven kingdoms.
Great news, time to move on.

Bernie needs to be asked nonstop where his 10 years of taxes are. It's absurd he has been wishy-washy on when releasing them for the past 4 years.
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brainchild

GameXplain
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
6,656
Minnesota

Bernie pledges his allegiance to the one true party and the rightful rulers of the seven kingdoms.
It's not that hard to understand. If he's nominated/elected president, he'll remain a Democrat. If he loses the nomination and goes back to the Senate, he'll go back to Independent to represent his constituents in Vermont. The roles are mutually exclusive and his decision will be based on the role that he fills.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,209
I bet there's a non zero amount of Dem politicians that expected the pledge to be effect in perpetuity and that Bernie already betrayed it by pre-registering as an independent senator.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,758
Ann Arbor, MI
Bernie has no choice but to release his tax returns.

5 years is not enough, should be 10. Bernie (and Trump) were already starting to plan to run for President 5 years ago.

Main reason people want Bernies' 10 year rather than 5 year is to see if he took advantage of any tax loopholes on their income and Jane Sanders business dealings from before he considered running for President.

And the fact he refused to release them all throughout the 2016 campaign, him being the only one to refuse other than Trump made a lot of people very suspicious.
 

Fork

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
Lima, Peru

Bernie pledges his allegiance to the one true party and the rightful rulers of the seven kingdoms.
About time he bent the knee to the party that brought us such wonderful moments like:

losing the 1972 election
losing the 1980 election
losing the 1984 election
losing the 1988 election
basically winning the 1992 mostly because of Bush.Sr fucking up
losing the 2004 election

and many others!
 
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