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Deleted member 10551

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Oct 27, 2017
3,031
Being in 4th when you were the runner up last time is not really yaaas material. Everything so far has been pretty terrible numbers for Bernie for someone who got second last time and has 100% name recognition. He has never had a national poll where did higher than teens.

Warren took the hard left mantle from Bernie. Without question.

I think Bernie won't even run because he won't want to split the progressive vote. Even though I think Merkley is better than Warren, if Warren can keep her numbers up I don't want Merkley in the race either. Let the establishment split.

My prediction is it's coming to come down to Biden, Harris, and Warren representing each of the three wings of the Dems , with Harris winning when she compromises with Warren.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,721
I apologize for not responding to this earlier. Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. It honestly does put me more at ease regarding him. Like you there are still policies I disagree with him on, but, I definitely overreacted.
Keep in mind, I'm not saying that there aren't issues with individual donations. There are. Things like bundling, where one guy will get a bunch of others to all donate the maximum or at least a large amount, exist and are problematic to say the least. My only point is if your issue is SuperPACs and unregulated corporate money in the system, OpenSecrets doesn't measure that on those pages.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Which candidates do you guys actually like? Too much negativity in this thread.
I dislike all of them to different extents. Sorry. Though, to be honest I have a natural distrust of everyone that runs for public office simply because their very purpose is to come across as genuine to you and you have no way to know one way or the other without actually knowing them personally. Just feel that if someone thinks a politician is "honest" and "genuine" they've fallen for the hype. Not to mention the fact is literally all of them will mostly end up following party orthodoxy because, in the end, presidents don't really have full control over policy.

On climate change they're all going to follow the European model which, frankly hasn't been the solution even if it is "better" than the way the U.S. has been tackling it (though, ironically, the U.S has still been leading gas emission decline recently and France has had an increase). There's been backsliding and things move forward on that at a glacial pace. All of them are not very pro nuclear, which would have been the solution to the problem in the first place and I feel we'll be looking back 20 years from now thinking that it would've been the best solution in that time period as well.

On healthcare, I specifically dislike the candidates pushing for only single payer. Like dumping a huge portion of the economy that's one of the biggest employers instantly will doom your legislation even if it passes, because you're gonna lose congress and the presidency immediately afterward (You think the reaction to something as mild as the ACA is bad?). People won't care very much that they have better healthcare when you bring a recession down on their heads.

On age: I don't want someone who's so young that they have minimal experience or so old that they're probably one of those congressmen that the congressional pharmacy secretly sells Alzheimer pills to or will likely croak before two terms are up.

On supreme court picks, they're all fundamentally the same. They'll all choose anti-citizen's united judges that have a certain view on social issues. Their will be SOME variation but they're all gonna choose from the same "experienced" short list.

On the millitary, I just have it as a given that, given the wrong situation, they'll all fuck something up.

On israel: let's face it, the israeli lobby is entrenched and kissing the ring is politically expedient and easy to do if they're a horrible government. More voters run away from an anti-israel candidates than are lost by being pro.

On immigration: don't actually know the very specifics of most of the candidates immigration plans and I'm very interested to learn more. They're all guaranteed to be MILES better than anything the GOP come up with.

On their record: they all have skeletons that, if you waved them in people's faces all day with no other information available, then the person you're waving that skeleton in front of will think they're the worst candidate ever. Not to mention there are plenty of REALLY out of context attacks going on that are outright misleading. This isn't to say that I don't care about their records, their records are a negative against all of them for different reasons.

Overall I DISLIKE Kamala Harris the least. She's got the necessary charisma to win a general, she has experience necessary to get things done, but she's not old enough to be in a nursing home.

Of course, I'm an NPA for a reason and I'm not gonna bitch and whine all day that none of the canididates are exactly what I want.

There was a poll done recently on exactly that, and Biden was actually everyone's second choice. That said, I think that's a matter of name recognition at this point. Almost all polling this early on is. We won't have any meaningful polls until like July, after a debate or two.

That's actually interesting information, but yeah we won't really know how far each candidate reaches until the primary actually fully starts.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
We don't talk enough about how good of a person she is. She campaigned in PR just recently and plainly said that Trump treated the territory with "extraordinary disrespect" regarding the aftermath of Hurricane Maria.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/22/politics/warren-puerto-rico-speech/index.html

She's the very image of authenticity. She's on top of "it" before anyone else knows what "it" is, as her legislative record reflects.

Warren has always been a phenomenal messenger. There's a reason she stumps all over the country and is one of the most effective fundraisers for downticket Dem's.

She needs that "polish," but she's white exciting.

oh no baby what is you doin?
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
At this rate, Beto is gonna pull up to his hotel in Des Moines and the front desk agent will be like "I'm sorry sir, but you and your reservation have been canceled."
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I guess bringing AOC into this would make sense if she'd shown her support by sending her thousands of roses worth $80k?

AOC is the icon for leftists at the moment, arguably Bernie's equal or superior. She has their pulse and is their voice on a national scale few politicians achieve in their life times for their followers, which is big for the leftist movement which doesn't have voices like that in politics regularly in congress. She brings more to then than roses she brings to Pelosi her active support on social media and interviews with the press, as well as the strongest support a politician in congress can give: her vote for Speaker. If her voters and supporters weren't ok with this we'd know about it, thus they're ok with Pelosi.
 

Datajoy

use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,081
Angola / Zaire border region.
Just had my thread in the off topic about Beto's blog locked.. but on the bright side I now know about the existence of this thread!

I'm champing at the bit to get started with this race. I was on the "Draft Warren" wagon before the 2016 race started, but I've sort have soured on her this cycle. I love her policy gravitas but she has weird baggage. I'm also really liking Harris. She seems like the real deal. I hope Bernie and Biden don't run.
 

NecroTechno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
296
geohell
Regarding the closed thread about purity politics...

I think it's an accumulation of a few reasons - the forum is pretty left-center minded (and at times, openly antagonistic towards left politics), and that the left has a pretty long history of eating itself.

There is a tweet that did the rounds a couple of years ago that I think about a lot. It goes along the lines of something like "The left want to abolish prisons. Liberals want more women prison guards." and I think it speaks to something very true about a lot of western politics.

Liberals tends to be more focused on individual improvements rather than structural changes, which bothers people who are more aligned with what is traditionally leftist politics (socialists, communists, anarchists). The left then speaks out against the liberal candidates who don't particularly offer much chance at real change, and liberals who see themselves and their politics as on the right side of history (and in lots of ways they are) object to this and consider left critique as a purity test.
 

Deleted member 13364

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Oct 27, 2017
1,984
AOC is the icon for leftists at the moment, arguably Bernie's equal or superior. She has their pulse and is their voice on a national scale few politicians achieve in their life times for their followers, which is big for the leftist movement which doesn't have voices like that in politics regularly in congress. She brings more to then than roses she brings to Pelosi her active support on social media and interviews with the press, as well as the strongest support a politician in congress can give: her vote for Speaker. If her voters and supporters weren't ok with this we'd know about it, thus they're ok with Pelosi.
Okay. I mean if what you took from my post was "The Daily Kos community clearly fawns over Pelosi, which the left wouldn't do and therefore of course they would have Bernie polling lower", then great.
But my point is that a community who does the very normal thing of raising over $80k to buy roses for a politician means maybe don't take polls of their community (or basically any politics website community!) as being particularly meaningful.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
I think it's an accumulation of a few reasons - the forum is pretty left-center minded (and at times, openly antagonistic towards left politics), and that the left has a pretty long history of eating itself.
The ironic thing is that Democrats are really only "left leaning" because of the two party system.
In most of Europe the Dems would be the classic center-right party.
 

Deleted member 22490

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Oct 28, 2017
9,237
I agree that the polls likely aren't a good barometer, but AOC is and she hasn't got heat from the left over this.
Bringing up AOC is a distraction from NoC's point: that a poll from a community that sent these roses to Pelosi isn't a good representative of democratic primary voters.

Also, while AOC is very popular among the left, she isn't totemic. We don't like someone just because she likes them. We don't agree with all of her actions, either. So bringing her up as if she's our pied piper is just weird.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Regarding the closed thread about purity politics...

I think it's an accumulation of a few reasons - the forum is pretty left-center minded (and at times, openly antagonistic towards left politics), and that the left has a pretty long history of eating itself.

There is a tweet that did the rounds a couple of years ago that I think about a lot. It goes along the lines of something like "The left want to abolish prisons. Liberals want more women prison guards." and I think it speaks to something very true about a lot of western politics.

The forum has an even balance, varying on the thread. Both the left and liberals are antagonistic to each other, liberals don't have that monopoly. The left does eat itself, and leftists particularly so - which is why they typically end up with centrist or liberal candidates rising to the top.

Liberals tends to be more focused on individual improvements rather than structural changes, which bothers people who are more aligned with what is traditionally leftist politics (socialists, communists, anarchists). The left then speaks out against the liberal candidates who don't particularly offer much chance at real change, and liberals who see themselves and their politics as on the right side of history (and in lots of ways they are) object to this and consider left critique as a purity test.

Disagree here. I've gotten into many discussions with leftists posters on structural changes, and they'd prefer to concentrate on local issues. Legislation details aren't priorities as much as they should on the left, unlike with liberals. Leftists focus more on the POTUS than congress. Leftists are free to point out criticisms of candidates, no argument there - in fact I'm sure the liberals know them off by heart and agree with them. The conflict comes with accountability, leftists want to punish them while the liberals realise there are limits to that because by doing that too much whoever wins won't survive the general because they've lost credibility.

Leftists have lofty, impossible dreams but few concentrate on the details of how to arrive there.

Leftists I've noticed are more inclined to outright ignore the system itself or that politicians and parties are reliant on figuring out how to work within it as best they can. Many leftists want to ignore the whole thing altogether, with vague ideas that the politics can do more and that congress isn't that big an obstacle to overcome to make massive changes. Some have a vague awareness of the system and don't want to think about the logistics about how to do things via legislation or how to get X into legislation, or think all they need is their favourite politician to influence media to do X, and the job's done already.

The ironic thing is that Democrats are really only "left leaning" because of the two party system.
In most of Europe the Dems would be the classic center-right party.

That's what occurs in every single country in the world via political alignment.

It's a catchy meme, but doesn't hold up when looked closely. Leftists keep getting the centre right (neocons) with centre left (centrists) for some reason, when there is massive gaps between the two in their values.
 
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Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Bringing up AOC is a distraction from NoC's point: that a poll from a community that sent these roses to Pelosi isn't a good representative of democratic primary voters.

Also, while AOC is very popular among the left, she isn't totemic. We don't like someone just because she likes them. We don't agree with all of her actions, either. So bringing her up as if she's our pied piper is just weird.

She's a much better bellwether than a tiny website for the left, as that website isn't leftists it's liberal. Liberals love Pelosi, leftists aren't so on the bandwagon. That's why her support is important, it smoothes over Pelosi's acceptance with the left since it's an endorsement. You're right everyone disagrees with their politicians, but there hasn't been a blip of negativity affecting AOC's popularity with that endorsement. If there was a big issue she'd have bought it out among her following.

AOC's definitely the left's Piped Piper (she gets liberals, as well). The only person who comes close to her popularity on the left is Bernie himself and he's fading. That's why she's a good barometer for what they left will tolerate.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
She's a much better bellwether than a tiny website for the left, as that website isn't leftists it's liberal. Liberals love Pelosi, leftists aren't so on the bandwagon. That's why her support is important, it smoothes over Pelosi's acceptance with the left since it's an endorsement. You're right everyone disagrees with their politicians, but there hasn't been a blip of negativity affecting AOC's popularity with that endorsement. If there was a big issue she'd have bought it out among her following.

AOC's definitely the left's Piped Piper (she gets liberals, as well). The only person who comes close to her popularity on the left is Bernie himself and he's fading. That's why she's a good barometer for what they left will tolerate.
Pelosi isn't really popular in general. Her favorability ratings are pretty low. I mean, I get not hating her or even liking her effectiveness but I'm not fond of the worship some people have of her. Of course, when people get too into worshiping any politician it annoys me so I generally don't comment on the YAAS's.

I wouldn't be surprised if AOC eventually hits Pelosi levels of favorability, though. Give it a few decades. Maybe she'll be able to cash in and get the presidency before then.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Pelosi isn't really popular in general. Her favorability ratings are pretty low. I mean, I get not hating her or even liking her effectiveness but I'm not fond of the worship some people have of her. Of course, when people get too into worshiping any politician it annoys me so I generally don't comment on the YAAS's.

I wouldn't be surprised if AOC eventually hits Pelosi levels of favorability, though. Give it a few decades. Maybe she'll be able to cash in and get the presidency before then.

Agreed.
 

Deleted member 13364

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Oct 27, 2017
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AOC's definitely the left's Piped Piper (she gets liberals, as well).
This makes no sense. Assuming you're using the Pied Piper analogy properly - where is she leading the left to away from their current position? To the right? If anything her current popularity is going to result in her pulling centre leaning people further to the left.
 

Snowy

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,399
AOC is the icon for leftists at the moment, arguably Bernie's equal or superior. She has their pulse and is their voice on a national scale few politicians achieve in their life times for their followers, which is big for the leftist movement which doesn't have voices like that in politics regularly in congress. She brings more to then than roses she brings to Pelosi her active support on social media and interviews with the press, as well as the strongest support a politician in congress can give: her vote for Speaker. If her voters and supporters weren't ok with this we'd know about it, thus they're ok with Pelosi.

Plenty of her supporters ARE annoyed at her voting for Pelosi, but she hasn't gotten heat because her support was rather tepid and pragmatic. Like, "I basically have to vote for her because all of her credible challengers are coming from the Right" is not a ringing endorsement.

Honestly, Pelosi stans, the people who just loved that pic of her walking away from the White House and the like, are the most confusing bunch to me.
 

Deleted member 5666

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Plenty of her supporters ARE annoyed at her voting for Pelosi, but she hasn't gotten heat because her support was rather tepid and pragmatic. Like, "I basically have to vote for her because all of her credible challengers are coming from the Right" is not a ringing endorsement.

Honestly, Pelosi stans, the people who just loved that pic of her walking away from the White House and the like, are the most confusing bunch to me.
If you aren't loving what Pelosi is pulling off right now how the hell are you even a Democrat? She has been pitch perfect and in control this entire shut down.

I would love to see someone offer a criticism from the left of how she has handled the shutdown.
 

Deleted member 13364

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Plenty of her supporters ARE annoyed at her voting for Pelosi, but she hasn't gotten heat because her support was rather tepid and pragmatic. Like, "I basically have to vote for her because all of her credible challengers are coming from the Right" is not a ringing endorsement.

Honestly, Pelosi stans, the people who just loved that pic of her walking away from the White House and the like, are the most confusing bunch to me.

The other support AOC gave Pelosi was this:



Which people here got all excited about, but what was there to not support about how Pelosi was handling the shutdown back then?

If/when Pelosi does something disagreeable to the left and AOC doesn't speak out about it, then we can talk about when AOC's support for her means for the left.
 

Deleted member 13364

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If you aren't loving what Pelosi is pulling off right now how the hell are you even a Democrat? She has been pitch perfect and in control this entire shut down.

I would love to see someone offer a criticism from the left of how she has handled the shutdown.
Well yes, that's exactly the point - people from the left haven't really been critical of how she's handling the shutdown (so far), so it isn't really remarkable that AOC gave some positive comments about it.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,084
The ironic thing is that Democrats are really only "left leaning" because of the two party system.
In most of Europe the Dems would be the classic center-right party.

Every freaking time. It's like clockwork.

In no European Country would the Democrats be a Centre Right Party. Let's list off the 'centre right' proposals they led on:

1) financial stimulus after 2008 (as opposed to the left leaning EU countries that embraced austerity)
2) lgbt rights (aside from the Uk where has a right wing party ever pushed lgbt rights?)
3) expanding healthcare for poor people
4) restricting gun rights
5) proposed and implemented climate change legislaion
6) raising taxes on higher earners

I mean, on what planet is this centre right policy? Sometimes I get embarrassed to be European when people make this comment. It's just flat out not true.
 

Deleted member 5666

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Well yes, that's exactly the point - people from the left haven't really been critical of how she's handling the shutdown (so far), so it isn't really remarkable that AOC gave some positive comments about it.
Yeah. I can't think of a single thing someone from the left could say to be critical of Pelosi's tenure as speaker so far. It's been beyond impressive.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Every freaking time. It's like clockwork.

In no European Country would the Democrats be a Centre Right Party. Let's list off the 'centre right' proposals they led on:

1) financial stimulus after 2008 (as opposed to the left leaning EU countries that embraced austerity)
2) lgbt rights (aside from the Uk where has a right wing party ever pushed lgbt rights?)
3) expanding healthcare for poor people
4) restricting gun rights
5) proposed and implemented climate change legislaion
6) raising taxes on higher earners

I mean, on what planet is this centre right policy? Sometimes I get embarrassed to be European when people make this comment. It's just flat out not true.
Yup. It's entirely divorced from policy points when people do the "but the dems are center-right" thing. It's a brand thing.

There has never been a government shutdown in which congress won and the President lost. She is on track to pull off the impossible. 3 weeks or not that is beyond incredible.
That's because government shutdowns are usually initiated by Congress, let's be honest. Not to mention there has never been a President as enormously stupid as to publicly say that they'll take full responsibility for a shutdown.

All she's doing is holding a line that's politically sensible to hold. It takes some backbone, but let's not act like this is a masterful political move when it's a trap of the GOP's own making.
 

Deleted member 13364

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There has never been a government shutdown in which congress won and the President lost. She is on track to pull off the impossible. 3 weeks or not that is beyond incredible.
It's this sort of breathless praise that people get tired of, but this is a good display of the difference between "stanning" and "being supportive of how something has been handled by a politician".
 

Deleted member 22490

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She's a much better bellwether than a tiny website for the left, as that website isn't leftists it's liberal. Liberals love Pelosi, leftists aren't so on the bandwagon. That's why her support is important, it smoothes over Pelosi's acceptance with the left since it's an endorsement
A bellwether for what? Primary voters? I don't get the logic. AOC likes Pelosi. DailyKos likes Pelosi. Therefore, that DailyKos straw poll is representative of primary voters? Or is it that AOC likes Pelosi and is therefore a good barometer for who primary voters are going to select?

You are severely overestimating AOC's power over leftists. AOC liking Pelosi does not rehabilitate the Speaker in the eyes of the left.
 

Deleted member 5666

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Oct 25, 2017
14,753
A bellwether for what? Primary voters? I don't get the logic. AOC likes Pelosi. DailyKos likes Pelosi. Therefore, that DailyKos straw poll is representative of primary voters? Or is it that AOC likes Pelosi and is therefore a good barometer for who primary voters are going to select?

You are severely overestimating AOC's power over leftists. AOC liking Pelosi does not rehabilitate the Speaker in the eyes of the left.
What has Pelosi done as speaker that is so horrible to you?
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
This makes no sense. Assuming you're using the Pied Piper analogy properly - where is she leading the left to away from their current position? To the right? If anything her current popularity is going to result in her pulling centre leaning people further to the left.

She's a Democratic Socialist. Like Bernie before her, every type of Socialist under the sun is flocking to her because there is no-one else in the country raising their flag.

Well yes, that's exactly the point - people from the left haven't really been critical of how she's handling the shutdown (so far), so it isn't really remarkable that AOC gave some positive comments about it.

There were just leftists who didn't want her to be Speaker, which died down once she got the job because she knows what she's doing. It's not like progressives don't have issues with her or wouldn't mind if one of their own replaced her, the problem them was they had nobody available with that clout. The Young Turks were out for her blood, for instance - and they run the Justice Democrats. She not liked by the left of the party.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
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There were just leftists who didn't want her to be Speaker, which died down once she got the job because she knows what she's doing. It's not like progressives don't have issues with her or wound't mind if one of their own replaced her, the problem them was they had nobody available with that clout.
At the time of the vote yes, but I don't think many think that way anymore. There really isn't anyone in the house as skilled as she is to pull off this pitch perfect control of the shutdown.

She is getting as close to universal praise from the base as you can get right now.
 

Ichthyosaurus

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Dec 26, 2018
9,375
At the time of the vote yes, but I don't think many think that way anymore. There really isn't anyone in the house as skilled as she is to pull off this pitch perfect control of the shutdown.

She is getting as close to universal praise from the base as you can get right now.

Compromise candidates are still their candidates, I see more criticism of her by liberals and centrists than leftists. When they feel she's getting attacked they circle the wagons a lot more then the others do with their candidates.
 

Cooking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,451
The forum has an even balance, varying on the thread. Both the left and liberals are antagonistic to each other, liberals don't have that monopoly. The left does eat itself, and leftists particularly so - which is why they typically end up with centrist or liberal candidates rising to the top.



Disagree here. I've gotten into many discussions with leftists posters on structural changes, and they'd prefer to concentrate on local issues. Legislation details aren't priorities as much as they should on the left, unlike with liberals. Leftists focus more on the POTUS than congress. Leftists are free to point out criticisms of candidates, no argument there - in fact I'm sure the liberals know them off by heart and agree with them. The conflict comes with accountability, leftists want to punish them while the liberals realise there are limits to that because by doing that too much whoever wins won't survive the general because they've lost credibility.

Leftists have lofty, impossible dreams but few concentrate on the details of how to arrive there.

Leftists I've noticed are more inclined to outright ignore the system itself or that politicians and parties are reliant on figuring out how to work within it as best they can. Many leftists want to ignore the whole thing altogether, with vague ideas that the politics can do more and that congress isn't that big an obstacle to overcome to make massive changes. Some have a vague awareness of the system and don't want to think about the logistics about how to do things via legislation or how to get X into legislation, or think all they need is their favourite politician to influence media to do X, and the job's done already.

This is insanely condescending, my god. It's pretty obvious you don't understand the leftist beef with liberals.
 

NecroTechno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
296
geohell
The forum has an even balance, varying on the thread. Both the left and liberals are antagonistic to each other, liberals don't have that monopoly. The left does eat itself, and leftists particularly so - which is why they typically end up with centrist or liberal candidates rising to the top.

I agree with you here, I think I should have been more clear. Leftists are absolutely antagonistic towards liberals, and quite often in a not-so-useful fashion. But I think it's worth trying to understand where that anger comes from. A lot of liberals postulate themselves as champions of the downtrodden, but also support candidates that are actively hostile to the changes required to equalise resources in our society.

Disagree here. I've gotten into many discussions with leftists posters on structural changes, and they'd prefer to concentrate on local issues. Legislation details aren't priorities as much as they should on the left, unlike with liberals. Leftists focus more on the POTUS than congress. Leftists are free to point out criticisms of candidates, no argument there - in fact I'm sure the liberals know them off by heart and agree with them. The conflict comes with accountability, leftists want to punish them while the liberals realise there are limits to that because by doing that too much whoever wins won't survive the general because they've lost credibility.

Leftists have lofty, impossible dreams but few concentrate on the details of how to arrive there.

Leftists I've noticed are more inclined to outright ignore the system itself or that politicians and parties are reliant on figuring out how to work within it as best they can. Many leftists want to ignore the whole thing altogether, with vague ideas that the politics can do more and that congress isn't that big an obstacle to overcome to make massive changes. Some have a vague awareness of the system and don't want to think about the logistics about how to do things via legislation or how to get X into legislation, or think all they need is their favourite politician to influence media to do X, and the job's done already.

On this point, I think our experience of leftists are very different, so I only have anecdotal experience to draw upon. I do agree that leftists pay close attention to local politics, and I think that's a good thing. When far left political discussion is basically off the table at a federal level, it is much easier to make meaningful gains and changes (in line with more traditional leftist ideals) at a local level.

I can't say I agree that leftists don't focus on structural changes, however. I think this is a widening gap between leftists and liberals. Leftists, ultimately, want to do away with cruelties of the capitalists system, whereas liberals still want to maintain it, just a less cruel version. In my opinion, it's impossible to live in a fair world in which the value we, as a society, place on humans is derived from their productivity. That said, I do understand that the internationalist left opinions on how to achieve this are horrifically confused and currently quite impotent, but we are making progress. An example is the medicare for all debate. Many liberal candidates argue for "accessible" healthcare, but that's not good enough. It NEEDS to be socialised. This is an actionable policy position that is achievable, but still core membership of the Democrats are not interested in it, and frankly, I think it's because they are more interested in maintaining systems of capital than they are in combating inequality.

To be completely transparent, I am not American, so I am only looking in and don't have any on-the-ground experience with American leftists. Only through the internet. But I am heavily involved in far-left circles (anarchists and communists) so that is a perspective that I offer.

It's a catchy meme, but doesn't hold up when looked closely. Leftists keep getting the centre right (neocons) with centre left (centrists) for some reason, when there is massive gaps between the two in their values.

I also agree with this, leftist vernacular tends to group neocons and centrists together, usually for brevity, but it does take some of the nuance out of the argument. (I guess with the overton window shifting to the right, it also pushes neocons towards the center.)
 

Deleted member 5666

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Well to start: she literally said America needs a strong Republican Party in a speech last night.
Don't try to pull this nonsense here, please. You purposely cut off the second half of that sentence to mislead and alter what she said.the said America needs a Republican Party that isn't a rubberstamp of Trump and stands up to him.

So what I hear is your only criticism of her isn't even something she said? Cool.

This is what she actually said:
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/426705-pelosi-tells-republicans-take-back-your-party
 
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