2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate

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ThomasJames

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Jan 15, 2019
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I posted this in PoliERA, but I'm curious what people think about AOC's stance on identity politics. To me it's pretty similar to Bernie's but just more...well thought out since he has a huge blind spot that she doesn't by virtue of him being an old white guy. This was from. Na interview she did with The Intercept.

"Sometimes people throw this term around - 'identity politics' - and a lot of people, when they use that term, they'll all mean something different. And so in terms of using the term 'identity politics' as 'Vote for me, I'm XYZ', to use that as the sole basis for voting for someone, I think is incorrect and it's flawed, because there are a lot of, I think...I mean, there are a lot of Trojan horses (laughs). There are a lot of folks who say 'Vote for me, I am this intersection of different identities' but at the same time they still try to advance or are primarily financed by special interests, so it doesn't necessarily get us to where we need to be.

At the same time, I think that a lot of our problems that we have here, our current social problems, are due to the fact that we've ignored a lot of the history of the United States along race, religion, class, and creed. And because we don't want to discuss the fact, for example, that slavery eventually evolved into Jim Crow which eventually evolved into the mass incarceration system, to pretend that mass incarceration is not tied to race, to pretend that current immigration policy is not tied to racism or xenophobia is also a mistake.

I am running and my identity is important because the district is about 70% people of color, the district is about 40% primarily Spanish speaking, it's at least half Latino. And it's not the fact that I'm a Hispanic woman that allows me to better represent this district, it's about the fact that it's a lens that I have to better organize and communicate with the people who live here."
I mean, this seems like a common sense understanding of what 'identity politics" is about. It's not about being excited that Ben Carson is leading HUD. It's about having diverse voices represented and having those voices speak on behalf of their communities rather than throwing them under the bus.
 

Sandstar

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Oct 28, 2017
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Working class is disproportionately comprised of PoC. Things like medicare for all and tuition free college would greatly benefit PoC and the LGBTQ+ community. More so than white people. So there are definitely ways to counteract the effects of racism through "economic" policy. Race and economics are intrinsically intertwined after all. But then of course you still need policies that address specific issues not necessarily tied to economics like police brutality rates against black people, discrimination against trans people, etc. In general though you can absolutely get closer to equal treatment for all people with "colorblind" policies, but obviously it won't get you all the way there.
In terms of demographics, white workers are underrepresented in this group compared to the nation as a whole; in 2015, they made up 59 percent of the working class versus 64 percent of the adult U.S. population. By 2032, people of color are set to become the majority in this section of the labor force.

Huh.....



Huh...

I guess 41% versus 36% is disproportionate? Huh. Okay.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/12/who-is-working-class-in-3-infographics/547559/
 

ThomasJames

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Jan 15, 2019
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In terms of demographics, white workers are underrepresented in this group compared to the nation as a whole; in 2015, they made up 59 percent of the working class versus 64 percent of the adult U.S. population. By 2032, people of color are set to become the majority in this section of the labor force.

Huh.....



Huh...

I guess 41% versus 36% is disproportionate? Huh. Okay.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/12/who-is-working-class-in-3-infographics/547559/
Maybe I'm off, but I think my post agrees with the point you're making (that PoC are more likely to be working class than white people) and yet your post has a tone like you're upset about what I said.
 

danm999

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Oct 29, 2017
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1) A Republican

2) When did Ben Carson ever imply or give the impression that people should vote for him because he's black?
Ben Carson absolutely used his identity as a black man to advance the argument poverty was a mindset not a legacy of institutional racism, and that his life story proves that, and went so far as to quote MLK to justify bootstraps.
 

NoName999

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Oct 29, 2017
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I was just giving example how parties use PoCs to imply that they have the groups interest at heart.
I thought we were talking about the individual politicians. Not their parties.

Ben Carson absolutely used his identity as a black man to advance the argument poverty was a mindset not a legacy of institutional racism, and that his life story proves that, and went so far as to quote MLK to justify bootstraps.
Fine he's the exception that proves the rule.
 

Sandstar

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Oct 28, 2017
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and now you know why i sometimes just respond to bad arguments with meme images

I just wasted 15 minutes that i should have been getting sleep on digging up old posts on neogaf to respond to bullshit. i should just stick to meme images next time
What, are you telling me that my apology wasn't genuine? Who's telling who how they think, now?
 

Sandstar

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Oct 28, 2017
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Maybe I'm off, but I think my post agrees with the point you're making (that PoC are more likely to be working class than white people) and yet your post has a tone like you're upset about what I said.
No, my point is that there are a lot more white working class then POC working class, so claiming that helping the working class helps POC more than white workers is disingenuous at best.
 

Kirblar

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Oct 25, 2017
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You have to look at the wealth gap to see the depth of the problem w/ the WWC vs the non-white WC.

Income alone shows you there's a problem but actually does obscure how bad it is.
 

danm999

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Kirblar

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Helio

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I mean Herman Cain did absolutely the same thing “elect a real black man”.

https://www.politico.com/story/2011/03/cain-im-the-real-black-man-052312

She’s not a politician but this is also basically Candice Owens whole grift.

I feel a little like I’m picking on black figures here I’m sure there are some other examples in different backgrounds.
There was a small stink up when AOC endorsed a white male progressive over a lesbian Native American. Some wanted AOC to endorse the latter because of her identity, not her policies.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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What, are you telling me that my apology wasn't genuine? Who's telling who how they think, now?
no, not at all

just tying back to my earlier discussion about whether or not this discussion was worthy of more effort than meme image response or not

your apology was fine. in this back and forth where you have

1. not been able to distinguish been editorial writing and quote from a person

2. selectively highlighted parts of a quote to wildly take it out of context and (intentionally?) misinterpret it

3. accused me of lying about my views

your apology was probably your only good post
 

NoName999

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Oct 29, 2017
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I mean Herman Cain did absolutely the same thing “elect a real black man”.

https://www.politico.com/story/2011/03/cain-im-the-real-black-man-052312

She’s not a politician but this is also basically Candice Owens whole grift.

I feel a little like I’m picking on black figures here I’m sure there are some other examples in different backgrounds.
You know considering Bernie's "Vote for me I'm a woman" jab was an obvious take that towards Hillary, I'm starting to think that we should probably be asking who on the Democrat's side pull this.
 

ThomasJames

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Jan 15, 2019
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No, my point is that there are a lot more white working class then POC working class, so claiming that helping the working class helps POC more than white workers is disingenuous at best.
In absolute numbers, sure. White people are like 65% of the country. I don't see how what I am saying is untrue though. People of color are disproportionately more likely to benefit directly from policies like medicare for all than white people are and that is one way, of many that are needed, to get rid of the effects of racism.

Kirblar said:
You have to look at the wealth gap to see the depth of the problem w/ the WWC vs the non-white WC.

Income alone shows you there's a problem but actually does obscure how bad it is.
Absolutely.
 

Sandstar

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danm999

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You know considering Bernie's "Vote for me I'm a woman" jab was an obvious take that towards Hillary, I'm starting to think that we should probably be asking who on the Democrat's side pull this.
No argument Bernie has been bad at articulating this stuff in the past, but that latest quote as I said seems like a perfectly fine articulation.
 

Kirblar

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Oct 25, 2017
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She just had a kid like 1 or 2 years ago. I don't think she's shown an interest in running right now, but I agree that she'd be a really strong candidate.
Without the surprise pregnancy I'm pretty sure she'd be in the race this year.
None of these seem to compare working class demographics, just racial demographics as a whole, tho.
Median will give you the "50% of people are under this bar" line, which will be including your working-class/lower class numbers. (economics/stats definition, not socialist.)
 

Sandstar

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Oct 28, 2017
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User banned (2 days): hostility
no, not at all

just tying back to my earlier discussion about whether or not this discussion was worthy of more effort than meme image response or not

your apology was fine. in this back and forth where you have

1. not been able to distinguish been editorial writing and quote from a person

2. selectively highlighted parts of a quote to wildly take it out of context and (intentionally?) misinterpret it

3. accused me of lying about my views

your apology was probably your only good post
And you haven't had any good posts. So I guess that puts me ahead. Cool.
 

Tomohawk

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Oct 27, 2017
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That Obama speech was designed to placate regressive whites who were scared by Wright. I doubt Obama himself believed the words coming out of his mouth, let alone most PoC.
of course its politics, theres a reason why though correct Hillarys basket of deplorables was spun out to hurt her and most people avoid that rhetoric. They're trying to get elected.

You know considering Bernie's "Vote for me I'm a woman" jab was an obvious take that towards Hillary, I'm starting to think that we should probably be asking who on the Democrat's side pull this.
I think alot of people see this in Kamala. After her announcement there was a lot of black people coming out against her with the shes not the candidate for PoCs like she claims. I dont know if she implied that or even if the accusations were true but their was certainly that sentiment.
 

weirder

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Oct 31, 2017
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There was a small stink up when AOC endorsed a white male progressive over a lesbian Native American. Some wanted AOC to endorse the latter because of her identity, not her policies.
It may not be about identity in the sense of tokenism(unless it was clearly stated) but about having representation and a voice for a minority over leftist ideological purity.
 

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
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Oct 25, 2017
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Cut out the sniping and the hostility.
 

NoName999

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Oct 29, 2017
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I think alot of people see this in Kamala. After her announcement there was a lot of black people coming out against her with the shes not the candidate for PoCs like she claims. I dont know if she implied that or even if the accusations were true but their was certainly that sentiment.
So essentially, it's just projecting their dislike of a politician by claiming he/she is not "real" "true" or some other nonsense.

Joy. :|
 

TarNaru33

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Oct 27, 2017
2,045
It may not be about identity in the sense of tokenism(unless it was clearly stated) but about having representation and a voice for a minority over leftist ideological purity.
Tokenism is exactly the form of identity politics Bernie and AOC criticize, with AOC being better at expressing it.

So essentially, it's just projecting their dislike of a politician by claiming he/she is not "real" "true" or some other nonsense.

Joy. :|
No, Kamela has a legit history issue that hurts her with PoC because it's well documented, unavoidable, undeniable, and she owns it.
 
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Helio

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Oct 28, 2017
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It may not be about identity in the sense of tokenism(unless it was clearly stated) but about having representation and a voice for a minority over leftist ideological purity.
it was about having representation, but that’s not all what AOC and Bernie were for. Representation matters to them, but also policies that support the working class such as Medicare for all. Dvaids’ primary opponent supported more progressive policies, so Bernie and AOC endorsed and campaigned for him.
 

Tomohawk

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Oct 27, 2017
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Not a protected class but i think veteran status is used often by the worst people. Tulsi being an example.

Edit: actually it could be a protected class, but you choose to become one
 

weirder

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Tokenism is exactly the form of identity politics Bernie and AOC criticize, with AOC being better at expressing it.
In context of Bernie's quote:
“My main belief is that we need to bring together a coalition of people—of black and white and Latino and Asian-American and Native-American—around a progressive agenda which is prepared to take on an extraordinarily powerful ruling class in this country. That is my view. Many of my opponents do not hold that view, and they think that all that we need is people who are candidates who are black or white, who are black or Latino or woman or gay, regardless of what they stand for, that the end result is diversity.”

It doesn't appear he wants diversity of thought or approach. It's got to be progressive to his particular agenda(or it's not a progressive agenda according to the Bernie purity) and it seems AOC feels the same way. That diversity has to serve their ideological ends. That's how it seems to appear racist. More so than the strawman he tries to put it on with the unnamed "opponents".
 

sphagnum

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Oct 25, 2017
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It doesn't appear he wants diversity of thought or approach it's got to be progressive to his particular agenda(or it's not a progressive agenda according to the Bernie purity) and it seems AOC feels the same way. That diversity has to serve their ideological ends. That's how it seems to appear racist. More so than the strawman he tries to put it on with the unnamed "opponents".
All political parties or movements are in pursuit of some sort of end, whether ideological, financial, power for power's sake, etc. If their primary interest was ideological diversity, rather than ideological diversity being something they have to put up with to win in different regions, then they wouldn't be parties or movements in the first place.
 

weirder

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All political parties or movements are in pursuit of some sort of end, whether ideological, financial, power for power's sake, etc. If their primary interest was ideological diversity, rather than ideological diversity being something they have to put up with to win in different regions, then they wouldn't be parties or movements in the first place.
Yes, a standard needs to be in place to differentiate parties and such. And I don't believe Bernie or AOC are racist. Indigenous people are a very small minority in the USA and it's probably difficult enough to get to a position to be an elected representative without having to overcome even more hurdles within a party. That's more what I'm getting at. It can't always be about achieving a specific ideological standard if it means suppressing an underrepresented minority. They shouldn't go unchallenged either. It's a fine balance that needs to be found and maintained between allowing them the opportunity, allowing them to be challenged and not unnecessarily hindering. And hindering by the more popular and well known and connected members of a party to interfere in a race outside their district seems an unfair challenge to place on on them.
 

Ichthyosaurus

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weirder

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Ichthyosaurus

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If sharice won't cooperate for that reason, isn't that on her, not AOC?
No, Sharice doesn't owe AOC anything. This is why endorsing primaries can backfire, Sharice had a good reason to be angry with AOC since this is not a traditional custom in the Democratic party. AOC's gotten in hot water with Dems over this before. AOC was in the wrong here.
 

danm999

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Who was the other guy? What made him better than her? Nor does this address the fact she's going to have a tougher time getting Sharice on board for bills or leadership votes from a fellow progressive considering Sharice won the general.
I mean;

The Democratic race in KS-03 featured a debate over what exactly the Democratic Party should look like. Welder ran to the left of Davids, touting an unabashedly progressive platform that included Medicare-for-all, debt-free college, and a $15 minimum wage. Sanders and rising progressive star Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez campaigned for Welder in the runup to Tuesday’s primary.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/8/8/17661442/sharice-davids-brent-welder-democrat-wins-kansas-house-primary

The ghosts of the 2016 presidential election are impossible to ignore. In Tuesday's primary, we'll see a left-leaning male candidate preaching a “radical” message versus a highly qualified woman running on a more moderate platform, both with the chance to defeat a cartoon villain everyone seems to hate.
https://www.thepitchkc.com/news/blog/21016726/the-race-for-the-kansas-third-feels-a-lot-like-2016

Seems pretty clear why AOC would go that way no?
 
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