2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate

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Latpri

Member
Apr 19, 2018
661
Look, theres no one else but Bernie. The entire reason people who support Bernie lets things like this slide off thier back is that there is NO ONE else. Nobody else has the pedigree, or the track record, or the 50+ years of supporting socialism. Theyre ALL bought and sold in one way or another.

Who am I supposed to change my support to in the event of a scandal like this? Warrens floundering already and shes the only other one even close to Bernie. Betos a rich shithead groomed for power. Harris is authoritarian trash. Biden is absolute fucking dogshit. Yangs been posting stuff that looks closer and closer to the 14 words every day. I dont know enoug about Buttgeig to have a stance but unless he impresses at debates hes not going anywhere. Kloubuchar FUCKING sucks.

If the worst thing you can tell me about my candidate of choice is "He promised not to be mean but then hired someone whos mean" well, guess what, thats not enough to get me to vote for any of the other offerings on hand just yet.
 

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,262
and look how much it did. harris and o'rourke are still polling just fine. You'll just take anything and everything to attack the campaign because you straight up don't like Sanders. I agree that what Sirota did was shady but it is no worse than Debbie Wasserman-Schultz ferverntly backing the Clinton campaign, I'd go so far as to say it's actually much less worse because Sirota isn't the DNC Chair.
Oh gee that's ok then. They don't give a Nobel Prize for Attempted Chemistry after all.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,767
Ann Arbor, MI
If the worst thing you can tell me about my candidate of choice is "He promised not to be mean but then hired someone whos mean" well, guess what, thats not enough to get me to vote for any of the other offerings of hand just yet.
You are leaving out a big detail. He hired this person to be “mean” and then lied to the press about it so he can pretend to keep his promise not to be “mean”.

You are completely missing why this is a big deal. It’s because he lied to the press and tried to cover it up.

The only reason sirota was announced today is because they knew the Atlantic figured out what they were doing in secret.
 

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,262
Look, theres no one else but Bernie. The entire reason people who support Bernie lets things like this slide off thier back is that there is NO ONE else. Nobody else has the pedigree, or the track record, or the 50+ years of supporting socialism. Theyre ALL bought and sold in one way or another.

Who am I supposed to change my support to in the event of a scandal like this? Warrens floundering already and shes the only other one even close to Bernie. Betos a rich shithead groomed for power. Harris is authoritarian trash. Biden is absolute fucking dogshit. Yangs been posting stuff that looks closer and closer to the 14 words every day. I dont know enoug about Buttgeig to have a stance but unless he impresses at debates hes not going anywhere. Kloubuchar FUCKING sucks.

If the worst thing you can tell me about my candidate of choice is "He promised not to be mean but then hired someone whos mean" well, guess what, thats not enough to get me to vote for any of the other offerings on hand just yet.
Is this meant to be a parody? Because if not you come across like a zealot.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,920
Say you don't apply your moral and ethical standards to Bernie and move on. Be honest.
I laid out my calculation here:
Let me know when you've worked out the math between hiring Sirota under the table and supporting Palestine that makes the former outweigh the latter.
Openly caring about Palestine/challenging Israel > Hiring Sirota > Being obstinately pro-Israel (basically every other candidate)

My support of Bernie is still stable. If another candidate came out in favor of Palestine or some other thing I feel Bernie stands out on I'll switch to them.

It is really quite simple. I'd rather have someone who's pro-Palestine but make shady deals with twitter attack dogs than someone who doesn't make those deals but is pro-Israel.
 

brainchild

GameXplain
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
7,065
Minnesota
But if I'm following this new break correctly...Sirato has a preferential canadidate, and was doing hits on that candidate's competitors...while secretly being on his preferred candidate's payroll?
Note that I didn't say that there wasn't anything wrong with this situation, but we have posters concern trolling about people on this forum not being concerned enough, which is ridiculous.
 

Cybit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
999
This is only March 2019. Man this primary is hot already. This thread, too. What is it going to be like next February when votes are being cast?
Those of us who were engaged and old enough to be around for 2000/2004/2008 aren't quite as surprised. This is 2008-esque with a modern media environment that is incentivized to pander to people's confirmation biases. (Doesn't help that many folks think they are smart enough to avoid confirmation bias. Which, of course, in and of itself a form of confirmation bias)

All y'all ain't seen anything yet, I fear.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,552
All the anti bernie people are getting a taste of what it was like to be a bernie supporter talking about corruption and undisclosed information by the hillary campaign in 2016, only to be told "it doesn't matter". Frustrating, right? Now imagine if it was the entire DNC establishment and mainstream media as opposed to one sensationalist journalist.

Bernie needs to get his shit together and address this. I'm disappointed in him and his campaign for such an unforced fuckup. Dishonesty is never good, Bernard.
 

Joe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,087
I'm really glad that Bernie Sanders has been so successful in steering policy conversations more towards the left in the Democratic party. Because that means there are avenues for me to get the Bernie Sanders-like policies I voted for in the 2016 primaries, without necessarily needing to be saddled with the frustratingly bad staffing choices that Sanders constantly makes. I really like Bernie, but shit like this is frustrating. I don't want an administration that is staffed with people who view the Democratic party the same way that I view the Republican party.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,292
I laid out my calculation here:

Openly caring about Palestine/challenging Israel > Hiring Sirota > Being obstinately pro-Israel (basically every other candidate)

My support of Bernie is still stable. If another candidate came out in favor of Palestine or some other thing I feel Bernie stands out on I'll switch to them.

It is really quite simple. I'd rather have someone who's pro-Palestine but make shady deals with twitter attack dogs than someone who doesn't make those deals but is pro-Israel.
And whenever another candidate screws up you leave all of this at the door and go at them like the afforementioned attack dog, expecting everyone else to accept a pretense that you care about morals and ethics when you have previously admitted that you do not.

Y'all ain't slick.
 

ZealousD

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,859
And? LOL we dont know how Bernie would do unless you have access to a multiverse where he actually did get the nod. Therefore to argue he’d win is simply as good as saying I’d have created Windows instead of Bill Gates if I was around at the same time he was. Its a fruitless game of whatif.
I never argued that he would win. Only that I thought he had better chances than Clinton. I came to this conclusion by looking at actual data. Not just the wide numbers, but the specifics. Like the fact that despite the portrayal of Sanders' supporters as being predominantly from the far left wing of the party, he had greater support amongst independents and left-leaning independents, because Clinton was only favored within the card-carrying core of the Democratic party. I am not speculating by the seat of my pants here. I am no Bernie stan that desperately desires for this to be true. I was banned from a local Bernie Facebook group. They thought I was a troll because I simply stressed the need to vote for Clinton in the general after Bernie conceded at the convention. I also don't have some kind of pro-Bernie agenda in regards to 2020. I'm certainly not arguing he's the most electable in this election. I have some guesses this go around but until we get much, much closer to the Iowa Caucuses I can't be sure.
 

LinktothePastGOAT

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,879
All the anti bernie people are getting a taste of what it was like to be a bernie supporter talking about corruption and undisclosed information by the hillary campaign in 2016, only to be told "it doesn't matter". Frustrating, right? Now imagine if it was the entire DNC establishment and mainstream media as opposed to one sensationalist journalist.

Bernie needs to get his shit together and address this. I'm disappointed in him and his campaign for such an unforced fuckup. Dishonesty is never good, Bernard.
Lol it was also RUSSIA that leaked shit. Materials that Bernard and co used to attack her. Materials of her giving speeches to big banks, OH NO!!! And yet Bernard isnt facing Russia stealing his shit and having other candidates attack using such info.
 

Latpri

Member
Apr 19, 2018
661
I'm really glad that Bernie Sanders has been so successful in steering policy conversations more towards the left in the Democratic party. Because that means there are avenues for me to get the Bernie Sanders-like policies I voted for in the 2016 primaries, without necessarily needing to be saddled with the frustratingly bad staffing choices that Sanders constantly makes. I really like Bernie, but shit like this is frustrating. I don't want an administration that is staffed with people who view the Democratic party the same way that I view the Republican party.
The Democratic Party is a bunch of do nothing morons who need to be primaried and purged ASAP
 

BoboBrazil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,130
It's pretty clear there's a subset of Bernie supporters that will support him despite anything he does, just like the Republicans who stick fingers in their ears when Trump is racist or attacks the doj or military or sucks up to Putin because he's helping them get richer and hurt brown people
 

abellwillring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,636
Austin, TX
I don't follow politics broadly enough to know who this Sirota guy is, but come on, if the guy deleted 20,000 tweets overnight that should be enough to convince even the most ardent Sanders supporters that none of this is above board.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,920
And whenever another candidate screws up you leave all of this at the door and go at them like the afforementioned attack dog, expecting everyone else to accept a pretense that you care about morals and ethics when you have previously admitted that you do not.

Y'all ain't slick.
You're using me as a surrogate for all the Bernie supporters that annoy you. If you have trouble with them, take it up with them. I've justified my own support, I have no authority or reason to justify anyone else's feelings in their stead.
 

brainchild

GameXplain
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
7,065
Minnesota
You are leaving out a big detail. He hired this person to be “mean” and then lied to the press about it so he can pretend to keep his promise not to be “mean”.
You have no evidence of this and probably will never get it. It would probably be best to not spread misinformation, especially for someone so concerned with ethics.
 

Tomohawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
740
I sympathize with fellow Sanders supporters, but this is reflects very poorly on him. Of course he's still my number 1 because we're not going to get anti imperialist foreign policy from any other candidate, but we shouldn't just shrug our shoulders when things like this come out.
 

Midnight Jon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,431
Ohio
I don't follow politics closely enough to know who this Sirota guy is, but come on, if the guy deleted 20,000 tweets overnight that should be enough to convince even the most ardent Sanders supporters that none of this is above board.
I wonder if those 20K tweets include that time two years ago when he immediately blocked me for pointing out Sanders voted "present" on Daines' sham M4A bill
 

LinktothePastGOAT

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,879
I never argued that he would win. Only that I thought he had better chances than Clinton. I came to this conclusion by looking at actual data. Not just the wide numbers, but the specifics. Like the fact that despite the portrayal of Sanders' supporters as being predominantly from the far left wing of the party, he had greater support amongst independents and left-leaning independents, because Clinton was only favored within the card-carrying core of the Democratic party. I am not speculating by the seat of my pants here. I am no Bernie stan that desperately desires for this to be true. I was banned from a local Bernie Facebook group. They thought I was a troll because I simply stressed the need to vote for Clinton in the general after Bernie conceded at the convention. I also don't have some kind of pro-Bernie agenda in regards to 2020. I'm certainly not arguing he's the most electable in this election. I have some guesses this go around but until we get much, much closer to the Iowa Caucuses I can't be sure.
The original poster I responded to did say Bernie would have won and almost any other candidate.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,767
Ann Arbor, MI
You have no evidence of this and probably will never get it. It would probably be best to not spread misinformation, especially for someone so concerned with ethics.
The article has evidence of this....Sirota was on the payroll for MONTHS all the while he was attacking Beto and Kamala endlessly and the campaign kept it secret so he could pledge to not do this.

Are you seriously claiming no proof when The Atlantic explains how exactly this happened?

You are seriously calling this report from the Atlantic misinformation?
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,552
Lol it was also RUSSIA that leaked shit. Materials that Bernard and co used to attack her. Materials of her giving speeches to big banks, OH NO!!! And yet Bernard isnt facing Russia stealing his shit and having other candidates attack using such info.
No matter who leaked it, if the information is true then the candidate should be held accountable for it and be made to answer for it.
 

Damaniel

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,746
Portland, OR
Yet another thing Bernie supporters will sweep under the rug because the ends justify the means, amirite?

I actually thought that Bernie would try to play nice this time around and that he might actually be worth supporting. Stupid me for holding out hope.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,292
You have no evidence of this and probably will never get it. It would probably be best to not spread misinformation, especially for someone so concerned with ethics.
The inferrence is justifiable. Sanders looked at this man and saw something he liked. Hiring him as a consultant is a direct encouragement of this man's work. He wasn't hired for being a wallflower.
 

ThomasJames

Member
Jan 15, 2019
1,803
I'm really glad that Bernie Sanders has been so successful in steering policy conversations more towards the left in the Democratic party. Because that means there are avenues for me to get the Bernie Sanders-like policies I voted for in the 2016 primaries, without necessarily needing to be saddled with the frustratingly bad staffing choices that Sanders constantly makes. I really like Bernie, but shit like this is frustrating. I don't want an administration that is staffed with people who view the Democratic party the same way that I view the Republican party.
Right, beyond having the right policies, I have very little faith in Bernie as it pertains to the externalities of being President like leading a team, managing staff, executing plans efficiently, maintaining a consistent message among all administration surrogates, etc. His management is consistently sloppy, and I say that as someone who would still be very happy if Bernie got the nomination.
 

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,262
"He's the only one. I don't care about what he's done in the past. The other side is worse anyway. No one's perfect. His message is more important. It's worth it to stop the opponents. It didn't work so it's ok. Both sides. He didn't know, it was all his team, not him. He's right on this one issue I care about so that's all that matters. They deserved it anyway. What about ____"

When your rhetoric starts to become indistinguishable from that of Trump supporters about their cult leader, take a step back and reevaluate.
 

Kitsunelaine

My favorite cake is pie
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,292
You're using me as a surrogate for all the Bernie supporters that annoy you. If you have trouble with them, take it up with them. I've justified my own support, I have no authority or reason to justify anyone else's feelings in their stead.
That's an interesting way to react to the truth of my words.
 

DrLight66

Member
Nov 27, 2017
294
The DNC rigged the debate schedule, the anti-democratic superdelegates all went for hillary, the Congressional Black Caucus smeared Bernie saying he never did anything for civil rights, Donna Brazile leaked a question to Hillary and then you have elite snobs on CNN like Andrea Mitchell (who's married to Alan freakin' Greenspan) bashing Bernie left and right.

But oh noes, David Sirota who's been tweeting mean things about Democratic candidates has been working for Bernie, wow
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,920
That's an interesting way to react to the truth of my words.
If you're talking to me specifically, feel free to cite some of my posts you take issue with and I'll try to explain if I can and apologize and retract if I can't. I took the "y'all" to be pluralized and therefore not aimed at me but in my general direction.

Yet another thing Bernie supporters will sweep under the rug because the ends justify the means, amirite?
The center-left goes on an on about "pragmatic" and "realistic" politics when leftists bring up stuff with politicians they take issue with. "We shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good." isn't that how it is?
 

DrLight66

Member
Nov 27, 2017
294
User Banned (1 Week): Trolling and antagonizing other members over a series of posts
Hillary supporters are grasping for straws, it really is sad and hilarious.
 

Joe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,087
Right, beyond having the right policies, I have very little faith in Bernie as it pertains to the externalities of being President like leading a team, managing staff, executing plans efficiently, maintaining a consistent message among all administration surrogates, etc. His management is consistently sloppy, and I say that as someone who would still be very happy if Bernie got the nomination.
Precisely. Thank you for putting it in better terms than I could.
 
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