• The GiftBot 2.0 Launch Giveaway Extravaganza has come to a close with an astounding 8073 games given away to the community by 696 members, a huge success thanks to you! The gifting now continues with more official prizes in the new Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Leftover Steam codes are also being given away to the PC Gaming Era community.

2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,432
As someone who follows american politics but isn´t american, what are the chances that Bernie decides this time run as an independent anyway? It doesn´t seem like the democrats learn anything from 2016 and they will probably pick a SuperPAC/Fake progressive anyways, so is there any talk of a third candidate this time?
It´s tough to follow the day by day aspects, but what he represents in Latin America is a fresh take on economics. Our left here has been far too long held up in minorities (not that this is a bad thing) and ended up lsing the debate on economy. A lot of progressive leaders down here look at Sanders as the best thing that could happen in terms of ending once and for all with neoliberalism.

I wanted to ask because sometimes i think he´s more favorably viewed outside of the US.
Which would be a shame because Kamala looks more and more like Obama. Looks like the perfect candidate, says all the right things, is socially a progressive, but will bend over to Wall Street and nothing will change for people who work from paycheck to paycheck.

At this point Bernie has to run, i know the party won´t let him win, but at least it keeps the focus on the real issues.
Those are some unsubtle dogwhistles.
 

Snowy

Member
Nov 11, 2017
864
Those groups support him in higher numbers because they're more likely to be Dems.

And old school "colorblind" socialism isn't the future direction the country needs.
There is a gradient between “color blind” and “color primary”, and Bernie very obviously lives between these extremes, based on his policies and overall approach. The actual economic rhetoric SHOULD be mostly presented in universal and general terms, however, because that is how genuine issues-based coalitions, and not loosely affiliated, personality-driven voting blocs (i.e. the Obama coalition), are built. Material self-interest, presented in terms that are easy to communicate and understand (i.e. not means-rested, complex public/private technocratic Frankenstein monsters), is the key.
 

RailWays

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
I mean, Bernie acknowledged that social policy will have to carry equal weight with any economic policy, so I'm not sure what "real issues" you think he's avoiding.

Case in point, from his MLK day speech last month:
Racial inequality must be central to combatting economic inequality if we are to create a government that works for all of us not one percent
 

brainchild

User Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 25, 2017
7,780
Minnesota
if you think "race issues" count as optics I have no idea what to tell you because that is just not true. Not to mention a 79 year old white man born before America was even in WWII will NEVER be able to what it means to a woman or a person of color and the issues they face daily.


Bernie saying someone not wanting to vote for a black man doesn't make them racist isn't optics.

Bernie thinking economic equality if the catch all solution to racial issues is not optics.

Bernie saying Vermont has hunting culture while Chicago has gun culture is not optics.
You're not wrong about Bernie's poor choices of words being a part of politics and him needing to work on that, but it does need to be stated (because apparently this forum seems to be oblivious to this) that his policy platform is actually pretty robust and comprehensive when it comes to intersectionality of addressing structural and institutional racism. He specifically worked with BLM on these issues and from what I've seen from the platform so far, it's looking pretty good.

It is factually inaccurate to say that Bernie currently only believes that racism is fundamentally a classism issue. There's enough evidence in his current platform and his more recent speeches to indicate that he has evolved his approach in terms of policy positions that deal with racism. Of course, Bernie still needs to get better about being conversant on these issues (which is one of the reasons why he wouldn't be my preferred candidate), but the criticisms of Bernie not understanding that economic equality isn't a catch-all solution just don't line up with the current evidence and is the result of repeating rhetoric without ever updating it in light of new evidence.

I mean, Bernie acknowledged that social policy will have to carry equal weight with any economic policy, so I'm not sure what "real issues" you think he's avoiding.

Case in point, from his MLK day speech last month:
Yup.
 
Last edited:

NoName999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,042
So we're at the point of the topic that "establishment" really means "things that makes white men uncomfortable"
 

Euron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
774
I didn't realize Era was in charge of the party! Seeing how she is the most popular candidate on this forum so far.
To be fair the old site was one of the top redirects to Hillary Clinton's campaign so we would have controlled the presidency if it weren't for those heroic 4channers. Saved America from having BronsonLee on the Supreme Court. Maybe Bernie can be the next to stop the PoliERA war machine.
 

Seattle6418

Member
Oct 25, 2017
218
Brasília Brazil
If you have evidence of a conspiracy, share it. Otherwise keep the baseless speculation to a minimum.
Whatever you say year old account with only 24 posts
This is the kind of shit that gives Bernie supporters a bad name.
Imagine being older than 17 and thinking the illuminati is real.
This is the dumbest.
And that´s why i was not posting anything after i came back after months just lurking. I think i have a strong opinion on this issue but i was not expecting this type of reaction.
 
Oct 31, 2017
411
Bernie is great and is the only candidate in the race willing to take on moneyed interests in politics. The thing that's been funniest about all the old videos of Bernie dredged up over the last few weeks by #stillwithher diehards is that they've only solidified how consistently he's been on the right side of history and how little his beliefs have "evolved" over time.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,432
To be fair the old site was one of the top redirects to Hillary Clinton's campaign so we would have controlled the presidency if it weren't for those heroic 4channers. Saved America from having BronsonLee on the Supreme Court. Maybe Bernie can be the next to stop the PoliERA war machine.
(also one of the top 5 for Bernie's!)
And that´s why i was not posting anything after i came back after months just lurking. I think i have a strong opinion on this issue but i was not expecting this type of reaction.
If you didn't expect a conspiracy theory that a wide-open primary where no one's busting 30% had already been decided by party illuminati to not go over well, that reflects only on you.
 

NoName999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,042
And that´s why i was not posting anything after i came back after months just lurking. I think i have a strong opinion on this issue but i was not expecting this type of reaction.
Well that's what you get for saying that the Dems primary voters are somehow plotting against Sanders and that civil rights and women's rights aren't "real issues"

Guy with only 25 posts
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,406
(also one of the top 5 for Bernie's!)

If you didn't expect a conspiracy theory that a wide-open primary where no one's busting 30% had already been decided by party illuminati to not go over well, that reflects only on you.
Were we really???!

Why was GAF/ERA so disproportionately powerful, in gaming and (apparently) US politics? Why do people care what we, a bunch of nerds, think?

Is this what it feels like to live in Iowa?
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,432
Were we really???!

Why was GAF/ERA so disproportionately powerful, in gaming and (apparently) US politics? Why do people care what we, a bunch of nerds, think?

Is this what it feels like to live in Iowa?
Someone mentioned on Discord that image links might have counted, which would make the ranking make a lot more sense.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,591
I have a bad feeling that the people in charge already picked Kamala. Having Democrat primary voters picking her is just part of the process.
So the narrative shifts from Beto being the hand-picked establishment chosen to Harris. If anyone not named Bernie wins, then they were the hand-picked establishment choice all along. War never changes.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,841
So the narrative shifts from Beto being the hand-picked establishment chosen to Harris. War never changes.
We would be lucky to have any of the democratic hopefuls over Trump imho however Ill be very interested to see how they hold up to intense scrutiny when election season ramps up

As if there wasnt enough mud being flung in here.
 

necrosis

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
847
The key reason for Clinton's loss in 2016 is due to Comey re-opening the bullshit e-mail charade 2 days before the election.

Which was spurred by Russian interference.

So...
it's not like trump was adverse to controversy lol

it was a combination of factors that led to hillary losing the election; things like exaggerated concerns about her health, a perception of her holding milquetoast political positions, and her lack of charisma were also contributors
 

Sandstar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,257
Remember kids, if you mention MLK, that completely erases the problematic aspects of your policies. It's like a magic spell that causes a certain segment of the population to nod their heads, and go "yes, he's dealing with racial issues. Remember, he marched for civil rights 55 years ago. That totally means he's dedicated to civil rights, and the problems PoCs face in this country."
 

brainchild

User Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 25, 2017
7,780
Minnesota
Remember kids, if you mention MLK, that completely erases the problematic aspects of your policies. It's like a magic spell that causes a certain segment of the population to nod their heads, and go "yes, he's dealing with racial issues. Remember, he marched for civil rights 55 years ago. That totally means he's dedicated to civil rights, and the problems PoCs face in this country."
This is a strawman argument; nobody is making this argument. The Black Lives Matters movement explicitly helped revise his policies with respect to racial issues, so if you feel that you can do better than them, by all means let Bernie know. Don't expect everyone to just lap up misinformation, however.
 

Seattle6418

Member
Oct 25, 2017
218
Brasília Brazil
(also one of the top 5 for Bernie's!)

If you didn't expect a conspiracy theory that a wide-open primary where no one's busting 30% had already been decided by party illuminati to not go over well, that reflects only on you.
I was expecting something like "i don´t agree" or "i think you´re are wrong on this one", not the jokes about my skills to comment on politics to look like i´m so dumb that i shouldn´t be expressing my opinion at all.

I thought opinions about the 2016 primaries being rigged were common, i thought this wasn´t 100% conspiracy, considering the email hacks, the West Virginia situation and the interviews mentioning that the DNC never really gave Bernie a chance in 2016, but i guess i was wrong.

Well that's what you get for saying that the Dems primary voters are somehow plotting against Sanders and that civil rights and women's rights aren't "real issues"

Guy with only 25 posts
If you´re a critic of identity politics, it doesn´t mean the rest doesn´t matter. The critic was never intended to diminish those movements. I don´t think thousands of posts on my record would make any difference, i never understood why people like to point out the number of posts to judge if said person should or shouldn´t be joining the conversation.

So the narrative shifts from Beto being the hand-picked establishment chosen to Harris. If anyone not named Bernie wins, then they were the hand-picked establishment choice all along. War never changes.
My mistake on this one, i should have mentioned that i was reflecting on this Politico story https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/28/wall-street-2020-economy-taxes-1118065 where Wall Street execs were pretty clear that they would support anyone but Sanders or Warren.

If you´re on the group that hates what Wall Street is doing, you believe they are handpicking a candidate to eliminate the chances of Sanders, and to an extent Warren to get the nomination.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,432
I was expecting something like "i don´t agree" or "i think you´re are wrong on this one", not the jokes about my skills to comment on politics to look like i´m so dumb that i shouldn´t be expressing my opinion at all.

I thought opinions about the 2016 primaries being rigged were common, i thought this wasn´t 100% conspiracy, considering the email hacks, the West Virginia situation and the interviews mentioning that the DNC never really gave Bernie a chance in 2016, but i guess i was wrong.
They might be common in some circles, but that doesn't make them not conspiratorial trash that will rightfully be decried as the conspiratorial trash it is. Bernie lost by 12%, and he lost primarily because he wasn't able to win over black voters. http://graphics.wsj.com/elections/2016/how-clinton-won/ Obama won a lower % of white voters than Bernie but won the nomination because he got 90% of black voters in 2008. Bernie stopped campaigning in the South after he lost South Carolina badly, and effectively conceded the election at that point in doing so.
 

necrosis

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
847
Remember kids, if you mention MLK, that completely erases the problematic aspects of your policies. It's like a magic spell that causes a certain segment of the population to nod their heads, and go "yes, he's dealing with racial issues. Remember, he marched for civil rights 55 years ago. That totally means he's dedicated to civil rights, and the problems PoCs face in this country."
nice strawman

more like: "when someone has stated & evidenced that they are dedicated to social justice for decades, and have done nothing to suggest otherwise, it's reasonable to infer that they are"
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
Can someone explain the love for Harris besides being a black woman? She seems pretty average in terms of left wing ideology
 

Gestahl

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
391
I was expecting something like "i don´t agree" or "i think you´re are wrong on this one", not the jokes about my skills to comment on politics to look like i´m so dumb that i shouldn´t be expressing my opinion at all.

I thought opinions about the 2016 primaries being rigged were common, i thought this wasn´t 100% conspiracy, considering the email hacks, the West Virginia situation and the interviews mentioning that the DNC never really gave Bernie a chance in 2016, but i guess i was wrong.
The primary was cleared of any legitimate challengers because it was Dear Mother's turn and the DNC, both minority leaderships, and their media contacts put the full breadth of their support behind her. Bernie doesn't really factor into it beyond being an anomaly that wasn't accounted for. But because they weren't literally jacking votes you'll have a bunch of ill-informed pedants who were Wrong in 2016 try to make you feel stupid. Don't let it get to you too much
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,044
Ann Arbor, MI
I thought opinions about the 2016 primaries being rigged were common, i thought this wasn´t 100% conspiracy, considering the email hacks, the West Virginia situation and the interviews mentioning that the DNC never really gave Bernie a chance in 2016, but i guess i was wrong.
Only among crackpot tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists. Anyone who holds that insane conspiracy theory view is embarrassingly delusional. There is NOTHING to back it up.

Hillary got 12% more in the popular vote. Votes weren't rigged.
 

RailWays

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Can someone explain the love for Harris besides being a black woman? She seems pretty average in terms of left wing ideology
Depends on what you define as the "average."
Some key policies that she's running on that some may appreciate (I'll undoubtedly miss a few):
  • Tuition-free college
  • Medicare-for-all (broad brush, yes. But she expressed willingness to get rid of private health insurance)
  • Criminal Justice reform.
  • Minimum-wage increase.
  • Equal pay for women.
  • Racial discrimination protections.
Now, yes, other candidates may have some or all of these same positions, but I would argue that this isn't the "average" policy slate so far. Personally she doesn't have Bernie or Warren beat, but they definitely aren't the average for the party, even if I'd like that to be the case.
 

Trouble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,048
Seattle
The primary was cleared of any legitimate challengers because it was Dear Mother's turn and the DNC, both minority leaderships, and their media contacts put the full breadth of their support behind her. Bernie doesn't really factor into it beyond being an anomaly that wasn't accounted for. But because they weren't literally jacking votes you'll have a bunch of ill-informed pedants who were Wrong in 2016 try to make you feel stupid. Don't let it get to you too much
I guess we shouldn't let party members choose their own candidate. They clearly don't know what's best for them.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory False Equivalence and History of Trolling
Hillary got 12% more in the popular vote. Votes weren't rigged.
Putin got 65% more in the 2018 Russian presidential election. Vote share is not a particularly good way of rebutting the claim there were shenanigans of some sort that favoured one candidate.
 

TerminusFox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,851
Only among crackpot tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists. Anyone who holds that insane conspiracy theory view is embarrassingly delusional. There is NOTHING to back it up.

Hillary got 12% more in the popular vote. Votes weren't rigged.
Not only that but the DNC doesn’t control the voting process. And then the people who do are then subdivided into various independent entities.

The DNC couldn’t rig anything even if they wanted too much less in a covert way
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,044
Ann Arbor, MI
No - I’m saying using the percentage of the vote a candidate got makes no sense as a rebuttal to the claim that something underhanded may have been done to swing a vote in that direction.
Except you got nothing but tinfoil hats.

Nothing hampered Bernies ability to run and raise money and he had an equal shot at winning the primary.

Hillary got more votes, a lot more votes, fair and square. And you don't got one single iota of a shred of evidence to even claim there was anything underhanded going on to impact the actual election voting results.

This nonsense sounds like a MAGA fan ranting about Quanon and is no less insane.
 

Maxim726x

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,819
That's what we all said about Benghazi and the Access Hollywood tape
If she were a more exciting candidate, I would agree... But Warren isn't charging anyone in the party to go out and get her elected.

Harris, if she sticks to the policy ideas that she outlined in her town hall, basically ends her candidacy right there because they're basically the same candidate. Throw this shit on top of the fire and I'm wondering if she should just drop out now.
 

RailWays

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Honestly the way some people refer to the 2016 primary I don't understand why they would even want Bernie to run again? What has magically been fixed this time that won't result in DNC stealing it from him once again, because I rarely see anyone pinpoint the exact machinations that rigged it against him? Like, Bernie had a very uphill battle in the sense that he was an unknown candidate on the national stage, not having the media clout of established names. That was on him to improve, and he just didn't have the time.

Which is why I think he has a much better shot going into this primary if he decides to run.
 

gutter_trash

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,918
Montreal
Honestly the way some people refer to the 2016 primary I don't understand why they would even want Bernie to run again? What has magically been fixed this time that won't result in DNC stealing it from him once again, because I rarely see anyone pinpoint the exact machinations that rigged it against him? Like, Bernie had a very uphill battle in the sense that he was an unknown candidate on the national stage, not having the media clout of established names. That was on him to improve, and he just didn't have the time.

Which is why I think he has a much better shot going into this primary if he decides to run.
ugh, the nomination wasn't stolen from him
 

Mercury Fred

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,874
Honestly the way some people refer to the 2016 primary I don't understand why they would even want Bernie to run again? What has magically been fixed this time that won't result in DNC stealing it from him once again, because I rarely see anyone pinpoint the exact machinations that rigged it against him? Like, Bernie had a very uphill battle in the sense that he was an unknown candidate on the national stage, not having the media clout of established names. That was on him to improve, and he just didn't have the time.

Which is why I think he has a much better shot going into this primary if he decides to run.
The DNC "stole" the nomination from Bernie?
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,432
Why was the deck cleared internally? It's actually super simple!

1.Obama backed Hillary as his successor.
2. No one in the party wanted to fight the hyper-popular Obama on this internally, Biden wanted to challenge but his family didn't want him running.
3. The end.

Seriously. It's not that complicated.
Honestly the way some people refer to the 2016 primary I don't understand why they would even want Bernie to run again? What has magically been fixed this time that won't result in DNC stealing it from him once again, because I rarely see anyone pinpoint the exact machinations that rigged it against him? Like, Bernie had a very uphill battle in the sense that he was an unknown candidate on the national stage, not having the media clout of established names. That was on him to improve, and he just didn't have the time.

Which is why I think he has a much better shot going into this primary if he decides to run.
He doesn't. His coalition from 2016 consisted of lefties, young voters, and socially conservative Is was glued together by non-ideological anti-establishment sentiment. Without the deck cleared for a single challenger, that glue is gone, and it's why you see his support collapsed not only in general polling relative to 2016, but also in polls of activists like MoveOn and DailyKos who were going for him overwhelmingly in 2016.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.