2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate

[Dream Machine]

Twitter overall is garbage. In the end, I agree it's about who you support. I'm very much a fan of Beto, because I think he's the perfect candidate to beat Trump for a multitude of reasons. But could I easily hop on the bandwagon for Kamala or Pete or Warren? Sure.

It's ok to have preferences. To be a "Candidate X or BUST!" kinda person, especially at this stage in the game, is a bit nuts.

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I think it's okay to campaign hard in the primaries and have strong preferences. Even if your candidate doesn't win, that strong show of support of their values and policies will spread to the rest of the party (see: everyone picking up Sanders platforms that would have called him a crazy old man a couple years ago (though still calling him crazy while picking up his policies))

The amount of people who would not vote or vote for Trump in 2020 if bernie didn't win is small, and will be completely overtaken by new "fuck trump" voters anyway. People are passionate about having the most progressive candidate with the most progressive record because time is running out, and we need bold changes soon. Just beating trump and expecting the rest to follow isn't enough for many people

 

[excelsiorlef]

and yeah that's totes racist, but the racist belief that minorities are abusing social programs stem not primarily from malicious intent to harm but rather misplaced economic anxiety about abuse of those limited resources.

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Are we seriously gonna sit here and say that racist white GOP voters are simply expressing a concern about the sanctity of welfare in a racist way... next you'll tell me they're genuinely concerned about voter fraud too!

It must be awesome being a racist white person, folks will create complex explanations as to why you're racist but not malicious and simply need to be reached out to and taken care of.

 

[Jiggy]

Maybe so. Only the fans of one candidate seem to jump to conspiracy theories or spread misinformation about other candidates though while ignoring the negatives of their candidate.

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This certainly isn't true.

Just yesterday Stinkles was posting incredibly disingenuous bullshit about how Bernie got extremely angry and attacked Hillary Clinton when asked about getting advice from her. Then the clip was posted in the thread which proved that Bernie didn't attack her at all and wasn't angry in the slightest, and then he ran off to another thread to complain about how Sanders supporters can never accept his objective (lol) critiques.

There are plenty of terrible posters in different "teams". It's just up to you whether or not you choose to see them.

 

[JVID]

I'd gladly vote for Bernie in the General and was a big supporter in 2016. I'd just rather not have any candidates from 2016 running.
Mostly due to the animosity it dredges up in the base. How many times has 2016 been reltigated in the last month?

 

[samoyed]

Are we seriously gonna sit here and say that racist white GOP voters are simply expressing a concern about the sanctity of welfare in a racist way... next you'll tell me they're genuinely concerned about voter fraud too!

It must be awesome being a racist white person, folks will create complex explanations as to why you're racist but not malicious and simply need to be reached out to and taken care of.

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For the record I think they're malicious but also maintain that they'll be slightly less malicious if their physical needs were met. It's like a grumpy racist old uncle who hasn't taken his meds yet. The meds don't make him not racist but it calms him down for a few hours.

 

[Ortix]

There are posters who act as vitriolic and as toxic as absolutely possible when it comes to Sanders while giving themselves cover by saying they'd vote for him as the dem nom, presumably while weeping and vomiting uncontrollably while doing so. I don't have a lot of faith in those attitudes. But I digress, the point is that the worst of the toxicity isn't limited to one side at this point or even heavily lopsided like many presume. And if your disagree with my perception, then...*shrug*. Ok.

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I do very much disagree with that perception, yes.

 

[TheLucasLite]

What is the root issue that you don't see it solving? It provides universal coverage in a way that might actually pass. Are you concerned about states not making maintenance payments? Reading through the Full Bill it ensures universal coverage through automatic enrollment and people making 200% of the federal poverty line have no premium or copays with an out of pocket max of $5000 for everyone over 600% federal poverty limit (approx $150,000 for a family of 4)

Even this plan is ambitious to the point I don't think it would be easy to pass but it is far more likely than one that forces everyone off their insurance plans even if they don't want to leave them.

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Policies that maintain insurance companies are maintaining a force that will work to push back against affordability because it's financially beneficial for them to do so.

It's why I'm critical of Social Democrats like Warren who only want to ameliorate capitalism versus transition to socialism. As long as there is still a capitalist class, then you'll have people pushing to exploit poor people and undo social programs. It's been happening with NHS in the UK, where capitalism is constantly threatening to come in and privatize it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

For the record I think they're malicious but also maintain that they'll be slightly less malicious if their physical needs were met. It's like a grumpy racist old uncle who needs his meds. The meds don't make him not racist but it calms him down for a few hours.

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And I think they'll say fuck you got mine....

The strong safety net and social services and all that economic great stuff is done in spite of the racist shitheads... not because you think it's going to in anyway make them not racist.

 

[Vector]

I think it's okay to campaign hard in the primaries and have strong preferences. Even if your candidate doesn't win, that strong show of support of their values and policies will spread to the rest of the party (see: everyone picking up Sanders platforms that would have called him a crazy old man a couple years ago (though still calling him crazy while picking up his policies))

The amount of people who would not vote or vote for Trump in 2020 if bernie didn't win is small, and will be completely overtaken by new "fuck trump" voters anyway. People are passionate about having the most progressive candidate with the most progressive record because time is running out, and we need bold changes soon. Just beating trump and expecting the rest to follow isn't enough for many people

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This certainly isn't true.

Just yesterday Stinkles was posting incredibly disingenuous bullshit about how Bernie got extremely angry and attacked Hillary Clinton when asked about getting advice from her. Then the clip was posted in the thread which proved that Bernie didn't attack her at all and wasn't angry in the slightest, and then he ran off to another thread to complain about how Sanders supporters can never accept his objective (lol) critiques.

There are plenty of terrible posters in different "teams". It's just up to you whether or not you choose to see them.

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It's okay to go hard on any particular candidate as long as it's all in good faith.

Attacking supporters of candidates or calling them a certain term meant to be derogatory or plain out smearing should be frowned upon by everyone regardless of which "team" they're on.

 

[Schlep]

The amount of people who would not vote or vote for Trump in 2020 if bernie didn't win is small, and will be completely overtaken by new "fuck trump" voters anyway. People are passionate about having the most progressive candidate with the most progressive record because time is running out, and we need bold changes soon. Just beating trump and expecting the rest to follow isn't enough for many people

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It's the absence of any self-awareness on behalf of Dem Socialists that bothers me. Yes, Bernie and AOC have helped shift some ideas left. I will give credit where it's due. The DS platform on a national scale, though? No. There's a reason those candidates only exist in a small pocket of the country.

 

[Vector]

It's the absence of any self-awareness on behalf of Dem Socialists that bothers me. Yes, Bernie and AOC have helped shift some ideas left. I will give credit where it's due. The DS platform on a national scale, though? No. There's a reason those candidates only exist in a small pocket of the country.

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See, I'm not really OK with this take - what issues that Bernie and AOC are running hard on are unpopular or fringe? The DS platform routinely polls great with the general public.

 

[KidAAlbum]

You have to remember what a conman Trump was and is. There were vulnerable people who fell prey to his bigoted rhetoric. Now that doesn't mean that those people aren't also racist, xenophobic, etc... but it does mean that their economic anxiety made them more vulnerable to bringing that out. Trump essentially said, "these are the people responsible for your problems."

To not acknowledge that fact is strange. Nobody is saying it's not racism.

It's the absence of any self-awareness on behalf of Dem Socialists that bothers me. Yes, Bernie and AOC have helped shift some ideas left. I will give credit where it's due. The DS platform on a national scale, though? No. There's a reason those candidates only exist in a small pocket of the country.

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That reason being that the moderate views are expressed by CNN and MSNBC where a large portion of the American voter gets their "unbiased" political news.

 

[Kayla]

I haven't seen anyone attack a Bernie fan unprovoked. I have seen plenty of Bernie fans doing it though.

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Uhh you just had Cheebo yesterday get banned for hounding several bernie supporters with "YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED FOR SUPPORTING BERNIE" it happens a lot.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The never bernie people are just as insane as the most aggressive bernard boys, there's just never any self awareness that they are being extremely aggressive and divisive while accusing others of the same behavior

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Yes the people who respond to Bernie running with fuck off old man are not contributing anything of value either.

 

[BoboBrazil]

See, I'm not really OK with this take - what issues that Bernie and AOC are running hard on are unpopular or fringe? The DS platform routinely polls great with the general public.

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Pretty much every far left Dem that ran lost except those in safe heavy d areas

 

[Ortix]

You have to remember what a conman Trump was and is. There were vulnerable people who fell prey to his bigoted rhetoric. Now that doesn't mean that those people aren't also racist, xenophobic, etc... but it does mean that their economic anxiety made them more vulnerable to bringing that out. Trump essentially said, "these are the people responsible for your problems."

To not acknowledge that fact is strange. Nobody is saying it's not racism.


That reason being that the moderate views are expressed by CNN and MSNBC where a large portion of the American voter gets their "unbiased" political news.

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There is a reason, that reason is called Racism. Economic anxiety is a bullshit explanation the media came up with too excuse racist white voters, and has been debunked in many articles.

 

[Deleted member 29676]

See, I'm not really OK with this take - what issues that Bernie and AOC are running hard on are unpopular or fringe? The DS platform routinely polls great with the general public.

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Support for medicare for all drops to 40% when people learn they can't keep private insurance. While not as unpopular as Trump i don't think your signature issue should poll below 50%.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Here's the reality

If Bernie Sanders wins the Primary and wins the GE.... you know what he's going to still lose?

The White vote.

 

[Schlep]

See, I'm not really OK with this take - what issues that Bernie and AOC are running hard on are unpopular or fringe? The DS platform routinely polls great with the general public.

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I'm not going to compile a list of issues. There's a reason there are only 4 DSA identified Congress members out of 535.

 

[BoboBrazil]

Uhh you just had Cheebo yesterday get banned for hounding several bernie supporters with "YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED FOR SUPPORTING BERNIE" it happens a lot.

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Can you point out where he said someone should be ashamed for supporting Bernie, because I don't remember it.

 

[Deleted member 29676]

Policies that maintain insurance companies are maintaining a force that will work to push back against affordability because it's financially beneficial for them to do so.

It's why I'm critical of Social Democrats like Warren who only want to ameliorate capitalism versus transition to socialism. As long as there is still a capitalist class, then you'll have people pushing to exploit poor people and undo social programs. It's been happening with NHS in the UK, where capitalism is constantly threatening to come in and privatize it.

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That is an admirable goal but i don't see the US dismantling the capitalist system in the next decade without a major shock to the system that is bigger than the great depression. Advocating for a complete rebuilding of 20% of hte US economy without that will be nearly impossible. Too many people are dying every year for me to say we should pass nothing other than a great plan if a decent one like M4America can save lives.

 

[Dream Machine]

Is not thinking Bernie should get the nom being strong anti-left?

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Saying or implying that the far left as a bunch of selfish, unrealistic white dudes who don't know how things work in order to dismiss them is pretty strong anti-left. Especially when the establishment liberalism has been failing us over and over again, acting like they have all the answers is a very strange worldview that I still don't quite grasp

It's the absence of any self-awareness on behalf of Dem Socialists that bothers me. Yes, Bernie and AOC have helped shift some ideas left. I will give credit where it's due. The DS platform on a national scale, though? No. There's a reason those candidates only exist in a small pocket of the country.

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I think our reasoning for why they are currently small pockets might differ. Especially when their policies poll well with most people. Even on a fox news poll that was clearly done with the intention of making marginal tax rates sound crazy and anti-american, it was a 70-something% favorability rating. When you cut through the bullshit and the spin and the appealing to people's tribal lower selves, most people like their ideas.

 

[Deleted member 42055]

My whole Facebook timeline is people dancing on the grave of Bernie's campaign after this new polling today, it's exhausting. The man has done so much good in his life.

Bernie polls falling

 

[KidAAlbum]

There is a reason, that reason is called Racism. Economic anxiety is a bullshit explanation the media came up with too excuse racist white voters, and has been debunked in many articles.

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It's called racism and economic troubles. You can't dismiss one part of it. Do you not agree that they're more likely to lash out at immigrants or people of color if they feel they're making it worse for them economically? Seriously, it's like you don't understand what Trump did. He took their economic trouble and instead of having those people punch up at the 1%, he had them direct their anger towards immigrants, people of color, people of different faith, etc...

Like I said, nobody is saying those people weren't racist. How is this hard to understand?

 

[Schlep]

I think our reasoning for why they are currently small pockets might differ. Especially when their policies poll well with most people. Even on a fox news poll that was clearly done with the intention of making marginal tax rates sound crazy and anti-american, it was a 70-something% favorability rating. When you cut through the bullshit and the spin and the appealing to people's tribal lower selves, most people like their ideas.

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100%. But you also need the candidate to be able to counteract the spin you're talking about. Kamala and Beto are good at that from a populism standpoint. Pete and Warren are good at that from an intellectual standpoint. By self-identifying as a Democratic Socialist, Bernie already puts himself at a massive disadvantage of winning that spin battle.

 

[RailWays]

Here's the reality

If Bernie Sanders wins the Primary and wins the GE.... you know what he's going to still lose?

The White vote.

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I wonder what will be the analysis for it then.
Probably not economic anxiety anymore

 

[BoboBrazil]

Once Bernie tells people he's raising their taxes he's lost the general election

 

[samoyed]

I'm not going to compile a list of issues. There's a reason there are only 4 DSA identified Congress members out of 535.

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DSA is an insurgent group. Their small numbers are (in my view) due to the inertia against them rather than any inherent unpopularity. It took the Tea Party a couple of years (nearly 10) to get where they are now, and this is with the backing of the Kochs and with Russian psyops. The Kochs have also had right wing libertarian political initiatives running across the country for decades whereas American socialists has had no such network (partially because it's not the kind of ideology that creates sympathists among the billionaire class, partially because it was crippled by McCarthyism). The American system is not build for change, it's built to resist change.

 

[Kayla]

Can you point out where he said someone should be ashamed for supporting Bernie, because I don't remember it.

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Hmm i can't seem to find it. It's possible he edited it or deleted by mod? He wrote this when he was gloating about the david sirorta stuff. He was rather aggressive with asking every bernie supporter to justify the hiring of Sirota.

 

[Dream Machine]

100%. But you also need the candidate to be able to counteract the spin you're talking about. Kamala and Beto are good at that from a populism standpoint. Pete and Warren are good at that from an intellectual standpoint. By self-identifying as a Democratic Socialist, Bernie already puts himself at a massive disadvantage of winning that spin battle.

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I guess we'll see.

It all comes down to the debates and when all of these people and their ideas meet and are challenged. It's all very hypothetical right now, and things change fast once the rubber meets the road. Some people think Biden or Beto have basically already won, but these early "who would you vote for polls" aren't set in stone by any means

 

[TheLucasLite]

That is an admirable goal but i don't see the US dismantling the capitalist system in the next decade without a major shock to the system that is bigger than the great depression. Advocating for a complete rebuilding of 20% of hte US economy without that will be nearly impossible. Too many people are dying every year for me to say we should pass nothing other than a great plan if a decent one like M4America can save lives.

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You can take what you can get while still openly advocating a better solution. Nothing says you have to play the technocratic politician game when you are just a voter. To do so is in fact the central danger created by incrementalism. I.e: advocating policy that gives just barely enough of what people want so that the discussion around the topic disappears while still properly unresolved. Half measures breed "screw you got mine" mentality.

 

[guek]

Are we seriously gonna sit here and say that racist white GOP voters are simply expressing a concern about the sanctity of welfare in a racist way... next you'll tell me they're genuinely concerned about voter fraud too!

It must be awesome being a racist white person, folks will create complex explanations as to why you're racist but not malicious and simply need to be reached out to and taken care of.

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I don't view people as binary constructs. Racism is taught, is not inherent, and is expressed across a wide spectrum. The fear that's often used to instill racism is usually based on perpetuated ignorance. While the blind total hatred form of racism is definitely still a thing (and sadly increasing as of late), I don't believe it's as binary and commonplace as it was during the civil rights era. That kind of bigotry these days is mostly reserved for the lgbtq community.

 

[KidAAlbum]

Once Bernie tells people he's raising their taxes he's lost the general election

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And the other democrats will have to say the same thing.

 

[samoyed]

Once Bernie tells people he's raising their taxes he's lost the general election

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This will be every candidate that "supposedly" also wants Medicare4All.

People will ask "how will you pay for it", and they'll either answer honestly or not. There isn't a Bernie problem, it's built into the progressive platform.

 

[Latpri]

It's called racism and economic troubles. You can't dismiss one part of it. Do you not agree that they're more likely to lash out at immigrants or people of color if they feel they're making it worse for them economically? Seriously, it's like you don't understand what Trump did. He took their economic trouble and instead of having those people punch up at the 1%, he had them direct their anger towards immigrants, people of color, people of different faith, etc...

Like I said, nobody is saying those people weren't racist. How is this hard to understand?

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Its the same reason people refuse to call Trump charismatic and put blinders on to why his behavior wins him respect and elections. Some people think that just thinking about these things will induce mind rot in yourself.

 

[Jiggy]

Can you point out where he said someone should be ashamed for supporting Bernie, because I don't remember it.

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Jesus fucking Christ.

Anyone who supports Bernie after his should feel ashamed of themselves.

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[Ortix]

It's called racism and economic troubles. You can't dismiss one part of it. Do you not agree that they're more likely to lash out at immigrants or people of color if they feel they're making it worse for them economically? Seriously, it's like you don't understand what Trump did. He took their economic trouble and instead of having those people punch up at the 1%, he had them direct their anger towards immigrants, people of color, people of different faith, etc...

Like I said, nobody is saying those people weren't racist. How is this hard to understand?

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It's. All. Nonsense.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/opinion/trump-coalition-2016-midterms.html

But this narrative has obscured the true nature of Mr. Trump's coalition. On the whole, Trump voters were never extraordinarily economically distressed. And now the economically distressed are actually less likely to approve of Mr. Trump's performance as president.

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What about Trump voters overall? They actually reported less economic distress than those who voted for Hillary Clinton — and again this was true at every income level. Moreover, Mr. Trump's earliest supporters, those who voted for him in the primary, reported less distress than did the primary supporters of either Mrs. Clinton or Bernie Sanders. Similarly, the much-discussed "Obama-Trump voter" did not report distinctively high levels of economic distress.

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All of this squares with research using surveys conducted during the presidential campaign: economic distress was not a distinguishing feature of Mr. Trump's support, especially compared to attitudes about race and immigration.

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[D.Dragoon]

Once Bernie tells people he's raising their taxes he's lost the general election

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He has said before that he would have to raise taxes.
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Also fuck this garbage, no democratic candidate should give the time of day to this piece of shit.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't view people as binary constructs. Racism is taught, is not inherent, and is expressed across a wide spectrum. The fear that's often used to instill racism is usually based on perpetuated ignorance. While the blind total hatred form of racism is definitely still a thing (and sadly increasing as of late), I don't believe it's as binary and commonplace as it was during the civil rights era. That kind of bigotry these days is mostly reserved for the lgbtq community.

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I hope you just realized you just argued that racism isn't as malicious as LGBT bigotry in 2019....

Based on well nothing...

Like i said it must be great being a racist white guy.... Contortions for days to downplay the severity of their bigotry.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I don't

It's called racism and economic troubles. You can't dismiss one part of it. Do you not agree that they're more likely to lash out at immigrants or people of color if they feel they're making it worse for them economically? Seriously, it's like you don't understand what Trump did. He took their economic trouble and instead of having those people punch up at the 1%, he had them direct their anger towards immigrants, people of color, people of different faith, etc...

Like I said, nobody is saying those people weren't racist. How is this hard to understand?

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The explain the jump in support for far-right anti-immigration parties in Europe, especially in Scandinavian countries among former left-wing parties, if social democratic programs stave off racial backlash?

 

[Kayla]

This guy is always dialing it up to 11 when it comes to bernie, and he doesn't care if he has his facts straight.

edit: meant to quote Jiggy

 

[guek]

I hope you just realized you just argued that racism isn't as malicious as LGBT bigotry in 2019....

Based on well nothing...

Like i said it must be great being a racist white guy.... Contortions for days to downplay the severity of their bigotry.

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And you're arguing they're identical based on...?

 

[KidAAlbum]

It's. All. Nonsense.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/opinion/trump-coalition-2016-midterms.html

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You simply don't understand the argument and that article doesn't disprove it. The article is saying that in comparison to voters who voted for Clinton, they weren't particularly more economically distressed. That is not the argument. I don't think anyone has stated otherwise. If that were the case, it would mean Clinton didn't get the minority vote over Trump. Obviously that is nonsense.

The argument is that being in economic distress, leads to more irrationality. Trump made those people believe their ignorance, that being that their problems come from different backgrounds are the source of their problems.

And this has been a thing the republican party has done for a while. Trump just amplified that.

And the goal is to win some of that support back. That doesn't mean you're going to get all of them back by simply offering to make their life better or simply getting it done if they do win. Those people are ignorant and are going to listen to con artists whether that be on Fox News or youtube, etc...

 

[lmcfigs]

He has said before that he would have to raise taxes.
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Also fuck this garbage, no democratic candidate should give the time of day to this piece of shit.

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Hey if he wants to go on Shapiro and talk about single payer and 15 dollar minimum wage. I don't see the harm.

 

[samoyed]

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Yang please, have some standards.

 

[Ortix]

You simply don't understand the argument and that article doesn't disprove it. The article is saying that in comparison to voters who voted for Clinton, they weren't particularly more economically distressed. That is not the argument. I don't think anyone has stated otherwise. If that were the case, it would mean Clinton didn't get the minority vote over Trump. Obviously that is nonsense.

The argument is that being in economic distress, leads to more irrationality. Trump made those people believe their ignorance, that being that their problems come from different backgrounds are the source of their problems.

And this has been a thing the republican party has done for a while. Trump just amplified that.

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That article and many more explain that economic anxiety was never a large factor, if it was a factor at all.

 

[Deleted member 31817]

Its unfortunate Yang made the debate floor

 

[Schlep]

DSA is an insurgent group. Their small numbers are (in my view) due to the inertia against them rather than any inherent unpopularity. It took the Tea Party a couple of years (nearly 10) to get where they are now, and this is with the backing of the Kochs and with Russian psyops.

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Cut the rest for space. The Tea Party was massively more successful than DSA in a much shorter time period. Regardless of how or why that happened for the Tea Party, it's not happening for DSA. And if it's not currently happening for DSA, then I question putting that philosophy front and center for the party in a national election.

It all comes down to the debates and when all of these people and their ideas meet and are challenged. It's all very hypothetical right now, and things change fast once the rubber meets the road. Some people think Biden or Beto have basically already won, but these early "who would you vote for polls" aren't set in stone by any means

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Yeah, of course. I mean, you saw Kamala jump 8% in the most recent poll. Eight months from now she could very well be in a commanding lead. Or she could have already dropped out and thrown her support behind someone else. It's way too early to read the tea leaves.

 

[excelsiorlef]

And you're arguing they're identical based on...?

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Dude.... Is this like actually the avenue you're gonna go down... that Racism isn't really motivated by maliciousness anymore?

You're essentially arguing that racism is simply ignorance and LGBT bigotry is hatred.... Is that the argument you are sincerely trying to put forward?

 

[Tomohawk]

He's 77 years old. He's not evolving on any stances and has never shown the ability to grow or change his opinion on something as far as I can tell his entire life.

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False he evolved on Israel Palestine relatively recently.