2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT2 | Warren's college tuition plan includes cancelling college debt

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samoyed

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Oct 26, 2017
9,195
Overall, the impression from reading this about the socialism movement it seems less about the desire for moral government and more about a belief in the subjugation of people and their children. Given some of the language used by socialists to describe people who don't support socialism that's not a surprise.
Spiritualism is humanity's oldest form of systematic indoctrination.

For Sanders candidacy and policies that could help people this can be bad if that is the type of dehumanizing support Sanders attracts with socialist dogwhistles. It makes those who aren't indoctrinated uneasy and pushes them to other candidates and policies.
You're indoctrinated. I'm indoctrinated. We're all indoctrinated. Thus is the nature of civilization.

To live in society is to abide by its implicit social contracts, which we learn before we understand what a social contract is (if we ever learn about social contracts). To absorb a set of beliefs without critical analysis of those beliefs is... to be indoctrinated.
 

Melkr_

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Oct 25, 2017
1,955
There's a point to be made. It was kind of glib for a person championing the problem of wealth disparity to stand on his podium of privilege after a 2016 national campaign and tell everyone that if they can write a best-selling book that they can be millionaires like him.
True, but how can you make it funny?
 

GiantBreadbug

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,139
Iitate-mura, Japan
Look all I'm saying is that I'm much more comfortable with Beto as a Meme than as a President and I'd at least have the decency to tell him he's hysterically unintentionally funny to his face if he came to my front door
 

Mercury Fred

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Oct 25, 2017
2,297
There's a point to be made. It was kind of glib for a person championing the problem of wealth disparity to stand on his podium of privilege after a 2016 national campaign and tell everyone that if they can write a best-selling book that they can be millionaires like him.
For real.

No other candidate would be given a pass for such a shit statement around being a millionaire.
 

Frozenprince

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Oct 25, 2017
8,974
"I believe everybody should have their basic needs met and should never have to work to survive, it's inhumane and immoral to force people to do soulless, menial, crushing work day in and day out simply to live. That is a deeply rotted and broken society."

Yeah, such evil ideology, many wow.
 

Ryuelli

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Oct 26, 2017
3,931
Look all I'm saying is that I'm much more comfortable with Beto as a Meme than as a President and I'd at least have the decency to tell him he's hysterically unintentionally funny to his face if he came to my front door
There's nothing wrong with being funny. A president that makes me laugh after 4 years of a president that terrifies me wouldn't be so bad.
 

brainchild

GameXplain
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Nov 25, 2017
7,161
Minnesota
There's a point to be made. It was kind of glib for a person championing the problem of wealth disparity to stand on his podium of privilege after a 2016 national campaign and tell everyone that if they can write a best-selling book that they can be millionaires like him.
Bernie has never had a problem with millionaires as long as they didn't hold undue influence over our governance via their wealth, and also paid their fair share of taxes. It makes him look even better to commit to such a stance while being a millionaire himself.
 

Ichthyosaurus

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Dec 26, 2018
7,538
"Indoctrinating." Yup, that was the impression that was given with the childhood education discussion involving socialism.
Overall, the impression from reading this about the socialism movement it seems less about the desire for moral government and more about a belief in the subjugation of people and their children. Given some of the language used by socialists to describe people who don't support socialism that's not a surprise.
While what you're saying is true, it's not the whole story. Socialism has many problems selling itself to the public as a legit government system which aren't anything to do with indoctrination. Language and reputation are a huge issues, and the movement itself has problems adjusting to the modern world on the scale of conservatism, liberalism and centrism in the US. Bernie's pushing it with his "revolution" terminology, of course people are going to be alienated because he's using words which means using violent overthrow of their government. Which many socialists scream from the rooftops whenever possible, or bring up word like "purging" when discussing centrists when they have power in a threatening manner. Thankfully the socialists candidates have the self awareness to avoid talking like that because that'd be career suicide in the electorate.

For Sanders candidacy and policies this can be bad if that is the type of dehumanizing support Sanders attracts with socialist dogwhistles. It makes those who aren't indoctrinated uneasy and pushes them to other candidates and policies.
Or maybe people just don't agree with his polices, or that he's not the right candidate to implement them properly? There's more to this then simply people don't like socialism because they're brainwashed.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,195
Bernie has never had a problem with millionaires as long as they didn't hold undue influence over our governance via their wealth, and also paid their fair share of taxes. It makes him look even better to commit to such a stance while being a millionaire himself.
It is ironically one of the things I feel he's too soft on but hey, it's the moderates who tell me I shouldn't care about purity so Bernie it is.

Moderates: "Stop applying purity tests to everyone!"
Also moderates: "Why won't you get over Bernie, did you hear what he said 20 years ago? You should drop him for it."
 

dlauv

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Oct 27, 2017
3,932
Bernie has never had a problem with millionaires as long as they didn't hold undue influence over our governance via their wealth, and also paid their fair share of taxes. It makes him look even better to commit to such a stance while being a millionaire himself.
I think every candidate in the millionaire bracket is saying that. They just didn't make a silly bootstraps comment about their own wealth, lol.
 

GiantBreadbug

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,139
Iitate-mura, Japan
There's nothing wrong with being funny. A president that makes me laugh after 4 years of a president that terrifies me wouldn't be so bad.
Right, and I certainly would welcome anything in the place of the Dark Hell Meme that is Trump, even Beto. I'm really trying to stop short of saying what I actually think about him and will continue to skirt around it by saying that he is so disingenuous (non-politically specifically but politically as well) that it is literally hilarious, but no I do not want him to be the nominee. For me it'd just be nice if he remained that guy who was "born to be in it" and makes for great gif material.
 
mod post - about other threads

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
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Oct 25, 2017
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Official Staff Communication
OK, listen up. The whole point of this thread is so that the site doesn't get clogged up with a million and a half threads about the 2020 Democratic Primaries. As such, the discussion is being limited to this thread until the first debate. After the first debate this thread will be locked and you can make all the 2020 Dem Primary threads you want, but until that point any threads on the primary will be locked.

Furthermore, from this point on, anyone who participates in this thread and can't seem to abide by this will be given a ban.
 

dlauv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,932
There shouldn't be money at all :)
I've been dreaming of this since TNG.

Right, and I certainly would welcome anything in the place of the Dark Hell Meme that is Trump (even Beto). I'm really trying to stop short of saying what I actually think about him and will continue to skirt around it by saying that he is so disingenuous that it is literally hilarious, but no I do not want him to be the nominee. For me it'd just be nice if he remained that guy who was "born to be in it" and makes for great gif material.
I don't understand the disingenuous stance. Seems either a projection or something else. The guy's been saying the same shit for at least five years, even before his senate campaign. The other progressives in the know, know him to be a good guy.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Member
Dec 26, 2018
7,538
"I believe everybody should have their basic needs met and should never have to work to survive, it's inhumane and immoral to force people to do soulless, menial, crushing work day in and day out simply to live. That is a deeply rotted and broken society."

Yeah, such evil ideology, many wow.
In theory it is then we get to one of the biggest architects in socialism philosophy and he's a dictator who committed genocide and well, it's not a good closer. Which is why it's good idea AOC and Bernie distance themselves from that, but not every socialist does this.

How fucking absurd to try and make some empty post about the electoral possibilities of Socialism while agreeing that "socialists are all brainwashed totalitarian monsters who are coming for your children". How do you even square that?
Socialism is many things, some good (demsocs, I'm fine with!) others not so much. Its the bad parts which make marketing socialism a huge task, because those a relevant aspects to the philosophy you can't just ignore that shit. Particularly when we have random socialists on the internet sprout that shit, and stanning for Lenin.
 

Prodigal Son

Member
Oct 27, 2017
725
There's a point to be made. It was kind of glib for a person championing the problem of wealth disparity to stand on his podium of privilege after a 2016 national campaign and tell everyone that if they can write a best-selling book that they can be millionaires like him.
i think a good test of the honesty of people making this criticism is this:

do you really think sanders thinks that any poor person can be a millionaire if they just write the right book? Or does it not seem more likely that the quote was a jab at the person asking the question?

if you earnestly think the former and that it wasnt just a sloppy statement on his part, idk what to tell you lol
 

dlauv

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Oct 27, 2017
3,932
i think a good test of the honesty of people making this criticism is this:

do you really think sanders thinks that any poor person can be a millionaire if they just write the right book? Or does it not seem more likely that the quote was a jab at the person asking the question?

if you earnestly think the former and that it wasnt just a sloppy statement on his part, idk what to tell you lol
I'm pretty sure he just didn't think at all before running his mouth. Like, the quote isn't remotely damning, but it's something to be thrown in his face.
 

Frozenprince

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,974
In theory it is then we get to one of the biggest architects in socialism philosophy and he's a dictator who committed genocide and well, it's not a good closer.
Lol I'm amazed it took you this long to just go "yeah but you'll kill us all anyway so shut the fuck up and get in line". Marxist-Leninist's are not the only brand, progenitor, or ideology of socialism. The reason that there's never been a true attempt at open socialist theory in practice beyond short stints is because capitalist nations come in and kill the shit out of them every time it is attempted to begin any cogent labor formation and unity of the people.

Also, if we're going to draw conclusions from the dictatorship then man, Capitalism's track record is excruciatingly evil and brutal.
 

Prodigal Son

Member
Oct 27, 2017
725
I'm pretty sure he just didn't think at all before running his mouth. Like, the quote isn't remotely damning, but it's something throw in his face.
i agree. if anything you can fairly criticize that he should spend more time thinking about how the things he says can be spun and interpreted if he wants to be president.

but anyone who thinks the quote means the socialist ideologue guy suddenly believes in a pure and fair meritocracy is just being silly
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,195
Is this the part where someone tries to paint China as socialist and therefore the Uighur oppression a product of socialism?
 

Fork

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,824
Lima, Peru
This is what happens when nobody can be bothered to actually read theory tbh. And I'm sure we'll be told "knock it off and go back to the filthy commie thread to talk filthy commie shit" aaaaaaaaaany minute now.
lol that was great tho, made my day

In theory it is then we get to one of the biggest architects in socialism philosophy and he's a dictator who committed genocide and well, it's not a good closer. Which is why it's good idea AOC and Bernie distance themselves from that, but not every socialist does this.
The fact that you couldnt tell ML apart from Socialism speaks miles.

How is Lenin an architect in Socialism Philosophy?

...have you ever talked to an actual socialist or are you talking about the strawmanned version of socialist that exists only inside of your own head?
 

Frozenprince

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,974
"Socialism is a dirty word electorally" gee it's almost like the US spent a century systematically jailing and murdering socialists. I can't imagine why it's been so painful to rip the band-aid off.
 

weirder

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
2,720
Spiritualism is humanity's oldest form of indoctrination.


You're indoctrinated. I'm indoctrinated. We're all indoctrinated. Thus is the nature of civilization.

To live in society is to abide by its implicit social contracts, which we learn before we understand what a social contract is (if we ever learn about social contracts). To absorb a set of beliefs without critical analysis of those beliefs is... to be indoctrinated.
Yes, the problem of indoctrination is old and may always be a problem with humanity that has to be watched for and combated. As everyone knows it's been used by control structures for ages and not just religious institutions.
One of Williamson's policies is to promote mindfulness in childhood education nationally. This is a technique for critical analysis that among other things mitigates indoctrination.
While it can be considered a spiritual technique it's only providing a tool. It's not instilling or indoctrinating into a particular religious or spiritual belief system. Spiritual techniques aren't indoctrination in themselves. It sneaks in through directives from teachers and other means like dogma. Just like socialism isn't indoctrination it's meant to free people from control by giving them control but indoctrination sneaks in through things like justifying means to achieve ends.
 

Frozenprince

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,974
Fred Hampton, my avatar, was literally assassinated by capitalists
Eugene Debs ran for President from prison after the Sedition act passed and the Socialist party was rounded up and jailed, killed, and forced into exile because Wilson and the oligarchy knew that the writing was on the wall unless they just started slaughtering them.

 
Oct 25, 2017
836
In theory it is then we get to one of the biggest architects in socialism philosophy and he's a dictator who committed genocide and well, it's not a good closer. Which is why it's good idea AOC and Bernie distance themselves from that, but not every socialist does this.



Socialism is many things, some good (demsocs, I'm fine with!) others not so much. Its the bad parts which make marketing socialism a huge task, because those a relevant aspects to the philosophy you can't just ignore that shit. Particularly when we have random socialists on the internet sprout that shit, and stanning for Lenin.
pls dm me the differences between marxism, marxist-leninism, socialism, and communism or pls stfu on rendering judgement on how people interpret "socialism philosophy".

I ask that OT3 is called "get in line commies"
I also support this
 

Dopus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
468
In theory it is then we get to one of the biggest architects in socialism philosophy and he's a dictator who committed genocide and well, it's not a good closer. Which is why it's good idea AOC and Bernie distance themselves from that, but not every socialist does this.

Socialism is many things, some good (demsocs, I'm fine with!) others not so much. Its the bad parts which make marketing socialism a huge task, because those a relevant aspects to the philosophy you can't just ignore that shit. Particularly when we have random socialists on the internet sprout that shit, and stanning for Lenin.
Pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about considering the fact that you believe socdems are "far left".
 

dlauv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,932
Socialism is a dirty word because it's fucking sucked in countries that have adopted it. Distinguishing it from democratic socialism is a lot of work in a country that works against itself in a bipartisan shit-flinging mind-war and I can only imagine diminishing returns. There's got to be a better name to call it.
 

Chaos Legion

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,660
Bernie has never had a problem with millionaires as long as they didn't hold undue influence over our governance via their wealth, and also paid their fair share of taxes. It makes him look even better to commit to such a stance while being a millionaire himself.
What does 'paying their fair share of taxes' mean?
It's an annoyingly ubiquitous phrase that I don't think people actually agree on what it means.

Does it apply only to those who really manipulate their income stream to pay significantly less taxes than they should? Is there a bar of what's acceptable and what isn't? If it's through legal methods, is it not really just being intelligent and utilizing the numerous loopholes that exist? Is it only rich people that it's applicable to, as in, if we look at the totality of revenue generated by tax revenue?
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,195
If it's through legal methods, is it not really just being intelligent and utilizing the numerous loopholes that exist?
The "that makes me smart" defense, really? Have we really been reduced to this?

Does it apply only to those who really manipulate their income stream to pay significantly less taxes than they should?
No.

Is there a bar of what's acceptable and what isn't?
Yes, the bar is "whatever is necessary to sustain social services". What's unacceptable is when social services collapse because people are not paying their taxes.

If it's through legal methods, is it not really just being intelligent and utilizing the numerous loopholes that exist?
No, ethics does not derive from law, but law from ethics. You can behave within the bounds of the law while still being morally bankrupt. You would use this same line of argument to defend an embezzlement scheme that targets poor people and the disenfranchised as long as it's "legal".

Is it only rich people that it's applicable to, as in, if we look at the totality of revenue generated by tax revenue?
Again, no, but a poor person dodging taxes has much less knock on effects in the economy than a rich person does. Again, whatever is needed to sustain the populace.
 
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