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JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,853


Nancy Pelosi is not a good representation of the future of the Democratic Party and her comments over the past few weeks is making it harder for true progressive reform to happen.

She seems to be more interested in protecting the status quo even if it means torpedoing universal healthcare and income redistribution.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Socialism is different than socdem policies

No rep or senator is a socialist (at least publicly)
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
The future of the Democratic party is not adopting Socialism as an economic system.

Take some economics courses if you want to understand why economics people don't treat it seriously.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,513
She's talking about socialism as a replacement for capitalism. There's still a long way to go on that front. She's not talking about the Bernie stuff, which isn't even fully democratic socialism.

But yeah, people will hear this the wrong way.
 

Damisa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
324
I doubt even 5% of the country would support real socialism, socdem policies are better anyway imo
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
The future of the Democratic party is not adopting Socialism as an economic system.

Take some economics courses if you want to understand why economics people don't treat it seriously.
Some economics people I've read academically also believe colonialism isn't a large factor for why MENA/Africa states are in trouble because it was so "long ago" lmao

What a condescending shitty post
 

Tracygill

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,853
The Left
This assumes that Biden doesn't endorse anyone. If he decides not to run, I expect he will endorse either Pete or Beto, and if he does endorse it seems likely most of his voters will follow the endorsement.
Maybe, but voters are weird and doesn't seem to care about endorsements at this point in the primary. It's pretty funny that a large part of Biden and Sanders supporters both have eachothers candidates as their second choice.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-endorsements/democratic-primary/
tOOhYCT.jpg

I doubt even 5% of the country would support real socialism, socdem policies are better anyway imo
JQGOWmO.jpg

https://www.axios.com/socialism-cap...nce-1ffb8800-0ce5-4368-8a6f-de3b82662347.html

Women and young people do not like capitalism as much as men and older people for some reason.
 
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Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
Even Elizabeth Warren has stated she's a capitalist, not socialist.

And she's the closest to that side. Don't know what you guys expect, lol.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Some economics people I've read academically also believe colonialism isn't a large factor for why MENA/Africa states are in trouble because it was so "long ago" lmao

What a condescending shitty post
Yes, I'm condescending because socialist economics are straight up religion at this point. They're not the only ones- Austrians are the same way.
 

Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
The future of the Democratic party is not adopting Socialism as an economic system.

Take some economics courses if you want to understand why economics people don't treat it seriously.

Economics is not a hard science, is a subjective science very exposed to ideology and biases. There are not "three schools of physics" neither there are "3 different schools of biology". "Go take a course in economics" is such a libertarian type of attack.
 

Ortix

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,438
Pelosi has to speak for all wings of the party, and socialism is nowhere near the agenda of most elected officials, and won't be in the near future. If she had said that yes, the democratic party is all for socialism, this would be used to attack the more moderate (and thus vulnerable) representatives. Her own voting record is among the more progressive ones in congress.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Economics is not a hard science, is a subjective science very exposed to ideology and biases. There are not "three schools of physics" neither there are "3 different schools of biology". "Go take a course in economics" is such a libertarian type of attack.
It has become much more of a hard science in the past few decades as the information age has progressed. And that change has blown up a lot of libertarian ideas about how the world's economies function alongside the socialist ones.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Sure but also there are wayyyy too many right wing kooks in economics now.

Plus socialist policies implemented by a dictactor is hardly socialism
 

SaveWeyard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,540
Economics is a social science no matter how much economists like to pretend otherwise. Denying that is why their epistemology is such shit.
 

Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
It has become much more of a hard science in the past few decades as the information age has progressed. And that change has blown up a lot of libertarian ideas about how the world's economies function alongside the socialist ones.

No matter how much data you input it will still remain a subjective science as long as its subject of study continues to be the human individual. That's a process psychology already went through when the hard behaviorists thought they could understand everything through behavior. Even cognitive-behavioralist understand now the subjective component is really important now. Not endorsing the "science of Marxism" but you can't say there is no room for improvement and different perspectives in Economics.
 

CrabDust

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,257
Glad to see some voices of reason in this thread. She's rejecting the label which the GOP is hammering for a reason.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Sure but also there are wayyyy too many right wing kooks in economics now.

Plus socialist policies implemented by a dictactor is hardly socialism
Yes, people on the left and right who were heavy on ideological theory have been getting blown up hard by the data, which is why the GOP is straight up rejecting economics now that it's telling them things they don't want to here.

Because at the end of the day, that's where the vitriol toward economists comes from- people who don't like that they're told "no", whether it be a left socialist or a right-winger like Trump or Navarro.

These two posts are good on the topic, first one on the move to data rather than theory, the second on the way in which the field is shifting leftward due to data and ostracizing GOP hacks in the process.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-08-02/how-economics-went-from-philosophy-to-science
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...er-field-where-republicans-reject-the-experts
Kirbs are you a Keynesian?
As in a believer in standard counter-cyclical economics and a non-believer in the idiocy that is austerity? Of course.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I guess that all of those house (and senate!) seats the dems lost from 2010 to 2016 dont exist now
They gained 40 with Bush's disastrous 5th year, gained 20 more in a recession, and then lost all 60 the moment they actually controlled the Presidency. Then, somehow, the moment they lost the Presidency, they gained 40 more again!

The problem is the combination of people being bad and a political system that is badly designed because it accentuates the badness.
 

CrabDust

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,257
Should be embracing it. Running away from it is cowardly
How would embracing this label help Dem candidates win? You're talking about 75 years of baggage and you have to win first to do any of this. I want to see candidates plain speak policies which adopt those humane and equality focused views rather than take on the identity.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
Kirbs are you a Keynesian?

*raises hand*

I guess that all of those house (and senate!) seats the dems lost from 2010 to 2016 dont exist now

We had a very good president/presidential candidate in the time we got those seats and aided by the fiasco of the Iraq War and The Great Recession.

Something like that will not be replicated unless conditions like that arise just before an election.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,378
Should be embracing it. Running away from it is cowardly
How is it cowardly to reject something she disagrees with? She's not a socialist, and no Dem candidate is even a true socialist; some are open to socialist ideas regarding social safety nets or more representation of workers in deliberating the means of production, but even Bernie's economics are still central to capitalism, as are all Democratic Socialist/Social Democratic/Nordic Capitalist countries.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
To be fair, the 2 basic principles of Kynes that Kirblar covered already are basically inarguable and anyone from the center to the left should "believe" them
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,513
Uh oh!


I mean, it still looks pretty good. I don't know what I'm missing here.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
My problem with economic orthodoxy (neoclassical or Keynesian) is that, from an armchair perspective, it's plain most people don't want to admit that capitalism creates, and in many ways incentivizes its own bad actors, which they then blame for capitalism's failures.
To be fair, the 2 basic principles of Kynes that Kirblar covered already are basically inarguable and anyone from the center to the left should "believe" them
Which two specifically? I didn't read the Bloomberg pieces.
 

Damisa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
324
Maybe, but voters are weird and doesn't seem to care about endorsements at this point in the primary. It's pretty funny that a large part of Biden and Sanders supporters both have eachothers candidates as their second choice.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-endorsements/democratic-primary/
tOOhYCT.jpg


JQGOWmO.jpg

https://www.axios.com/socialism-cap...nce-1ffb8800-0ce5-4368-8a6f-de3b82662347.html

Women and young people do not like capitalism as much as men and older people for some reason.

Is this some kind of joke? I am talking about real socialism, not capitalism with social safety nets.

What percent of people will agree with "the government should nationalize Apple, Microsoft, etc"?
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
My problem with economic orthodoxy (neoclassical or Keynesian) is that, from an armchair perspective, it's plain most people don't want to admit that capitalism creates, and in many ways incentivizes its own bad actors, which they then blame for capitalism's failures.

A common rebuttal towards communism is that "people are bad innately". Setting aside the philosophical nature of that claim, they are just as bad under capitalism, but capitalism supporters think we can regulate the economy to such an extent as to stamp out most bad actors. Which is curious because they won't extend the same line of thought towards communism, that we can stamp out bad actors to reach a more-or-less stable equilibrium.

Which two specifically? I didn't read the Bloomberg pieces.
1) Economics is cyclical (1b) and as such regulation is needed to prevent tragedies)

2) austerity doesnt work


These 2 don't specifically point to capitalism or socialism though, they could be either or. But add in other stuff from the model and it tilts towards regulated capitalism
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
How would embracing this label help Dem candidates win? You're talking about 75 years of baggage and you have to win first to do any of this. I want to see candidates plain speak policies which adopt those humane and equality focused views rather than take on the identity.
The GOP has been calling whatever the democrats have been doing socialism since time immemorial. They get scared and run away from policies that people want.

Disclaimer: this is only in regards to the "label" of socialism that the GOPnormally uses. Not actual socialism. Sorry for the confusion.
 
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