2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT2 | Warren's college tuition plan includes cancelling college debt

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weirder

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
2,720
I totally forgot about the 20 candidate limit. I'm still baffled about Hickenlooper.
After watching his Town Hall with Dana Bash I was a bit concerned how it was going to go with her moderating Marianne. While Dana seemed cold to Marianne at first by the end I think Dana had begun liking Marianne. lol
She did do great.
 
Mod post - stay on topic

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
16,106
Official Staff Communication
This thread is not supposed to be a battleground between factions of the community. If you want to have an extended conversation about something that relates to the 2020 Democratic Primary, that's fine. But the continued swatting back and forth needs to end now. Get back on topic
.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,195
You got me, you figured out that I'm just using Bernie as a vehicle for my ideology... like everyone does for their pet candidates..
 

BoboBrazil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
It's very possible he may start beating Beto and Bernie in fundraising. We won't know until the 2nd quarter numbers come out. He's going on every media show possible(tonight Maddow) which is giving him free advertising. He's not putting in the ground work of Beto. Beto seems to be avoiding almost all media, but he's building volunteer groups in every city he visits which will start paying off down the road.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,045
It's very possible he may start beating Beto and Bernie in fundraising. We won't know until the 2nd quarter numbers come out. He's going on every media show possible(tonight Maddow) which is giving him free advertising. He's not putting in the ground work of Beto. Beto seems to be avoiding almost all media, but he's building volunteer groups in every city he visits which will start paying off down the road.
I suspect Beto's deliberately waiting to do that in May/June after Biden's announced and before the debates.
 

Frozenprince

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,974
There are a lot of decent people. But you're always going to have rapists, serial killers, con artists, xenophobes, etc. and how you deal with their inevitable existence as they try to manipulate the system to their advantage is critical, because those are the people much more likely to actively seek power, wealth, status, etc. relative to everyone else. Trump is unfortunately a perfect example of this.

It's a realistic view, not "depressing". The point is to make life less shitty for everyone and to make things a better place for future generations, hopefully without us burring out the planet before the sun does. I view a world where you have an interconnected web of people working at jobs for other people that allow them to earn money for themselves that they use to receive goods and services from other people as a good thing. And no, I don't think you can completely eliminate rungs- but you can make the bottom rungs far less awful to live on.
No it's overwhelmingly depressing. Aren't you all fond of posting all those trendlines as to how humanity has less murder, less crime, less everything under the current system? Aren't things "getting better"? So why are we putting a cap on human capacity to be good, to be better? That's an absurdly nihilistic view that we are all just going to slaughter each other the minute someone else gets a bigger rock. Because that means we're never going to improve past this situation and we're just going to slaughter one another no matter what. In which case why bother with doing anything. Trump is a perfect example of how broken the system we live under makes people in the first place. How absurd amounts of wealth, power, and structure centralized under people can break them and turn them into monsters or out of touch loons who live totally separated from all distinct reality. You break that by destroying the capacity to seek wealth in the first place. You do that by democratizing the workplace so that people have a voice in their labor and equitable standing, so that they aren't wage slaves to a system imposed upon them to which they cannot escape.

The view that we're basically doomed to cook to death is pure nihilism, it belies that we are all monsters, that there's no saving it so we just make the best with what we have and hope for the best. If you don't believe that you can eliminate hierarchy then your system is inherently nihilist. The hierarchy exists because the system of capital allows it to exist, "making the bottom run less awful to live on" is fucking absurd. You're distilling down human dignity and their moral imperative to live a good, fulfilled life into a box of consumerist nonsense so that "well hey at least they'll sit there and shut up now". How on earth is that anything other than a depressing, callow, overwhelmingly cynical way to view the human condition and the abject horrors that this system imposes on people? People's inherent value as human beings shouldn't be tied to working, people shouldn't have to work to live, that's barbaric, it's evil, it's wrong. A system that relies on that is one that is inherently not built to stand, eventually there just isn't going to be any jobs left for the majority of people, then what do you do? Eventually poverty begins to skyrocket because we've destroyed the systems of society that existed for the common good and all the global capital is hoarded into a few hundred families, then what do you do?

People's needs can't be broken down into the abject make work of capital just to subside in a system that flatly doesn't care about their human dignity or their ability to function as humans with a well rounded, fulfilled life. Capital is an inherently inefficient system because it prioritizes the functions of capital and the hoarding of it over the common human communal good. Why are we still drilling and using fossil fuels? We know they are killing us and we know that we've less than a decade to prevent major ecological catastrophe. Because they make money. Why are we not working on new generations of anti-biotics to counteract the massive resistances that all major bacterial infections are developing to current strains, on which the entirety of our medical system functions through? Because they don't make money, because there's no profit motive or abject use of capital for that to function as is. Why do we produce more food than we can possibly eat and throw away over half of it, why do we produce mountains of clothing and waste goods that we end up disposing off before use or after a single use? What perpetuates this concept of waste? What enables this system where the communal good is abolished in the name of temporary wealth that doesn't make any impact on the lives of common people in any capacity.

You can't "reform" capitalism to the extent where this doesn't exist, this is the existential form of capital at it's most basic level. You can't break us from the inefficiencies that dictate how it functions without abolishing it entirely. So yes, it is intensely depressing how you've basically just gone "well we're probably fucked but this is still the best bet because people are just inborn to be pieces of shit" and that we've no real options left to combat the coming storm that very easily could doom the species because a few thousand individuals needed to make the imaginary numbers go higher.
Congrats, you've discovered the human concept of "humor".
 

Frozenprince

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,974
"Why won't they just use their hangouts OT as a safe space in the same way we use our poliera thread?"
Why is this user being banned for this?

Honestly, that's ridiculous. This is such an innocuous comment and no less than anything weirder or anybody else posts in this thread constantly. There have been repeated posts in poliera that state the same thing and it's just told to "settle down guys".

This is a banning for nothing, it's ridiculous that you want to pretend there isn't a double standard at play, especially when weirder has been actively attempting to formulate some active conspiracy. And I'm not "PM'ing a mod about these decisions" because that doesn't do anything.

There's a clear double standard and measure of favoritism here.
 

Mercury Fred

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,297
It's very possible he may start beating Beto and Bernie in fundraising. We won't know until the 2nd quarter numbers come out. He's going on every media show possible(tonight Maddow) which is giving him free advertising. He's not putting in the ground work of Beto. Beto seems to be avoiding almost all media, but he's building volunteer groups in every city he visits which will start paying off down the road.
Wait, has Beto done Maddow yet? It does seem weird that he's not done much media yet. Although I do think it's cool that he's putting in monster work into grassroots campaigning with his nonstop city tour.
 

Prodigal Son

Member
Oct 27, 2017
725
a bit worried about the idea of yang getting more popular and eating valuable potential bernie votes. i wonder when/if he'll drop out after underperforming in iowa. It wouldn't surprise me if he kept hanging on the whole way through for no reason other than to talk about UBI.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,045
No it's overwhelmingly depressing. Aren't you all fond of posting all those trendlines as to how humanity has less murder, less crime, less everything under the current system? Aren't things "getting better"? So why are we putting a cap on human capacity to be good, to be better? That's an absurdly nihilistic view that we are all just going to slaughter each other the minute someone else gets a bigger rock. Because that means we're never going to improve past this situation and we're just going to slaughter one another no matter what. In which case why bother with doing anything. Trump is a perfect example of how broken the system we live under makes people in the first place. How absurd amounts of wealth, power, and structure centralized under people can break them and turn them into monsters or out of touch loons who live totally separated from all distinct reality. You break that by destroying the capacity to seek wealth in the first place. You do that by democratizing the workplace so that people have a voice in their labor and equitable standing, so that they aren't wage slaves to a system imposed upon them to which they cannot escape.

The view that we're basically doomed to cook to death is pure nihilism, it belies that we are all monsters, that there's no saving it so we just make the best with what we have and hope for the best. If you don't believe that you can eliminate hierarchy then your system is inherently nihilist. The hierarchy exists because the system of capital allows it to exist, "making the bottom run less awful to live on" is fucking absurd. You're distilling down human dignity and their moral imperative to live a good, fulfilled life into a box of consumerist nonsense so that "well hey at least they'll sit there and shut up now". How on earth is that anything other than a depressing, callow, overwhelmingly cynical way to view the human condition and the abject horrors that this system imposes on people? People's inherent value as human beings shouldn't be tied to working, people shouldn't have to work to live, that's barbaric, it's evil, it's wrong. A system that relies on that is one that is inherently not built to stand, eventually there just isn't going to be any jobs left for the majority of people, then what do you do? Eventually poverty begins to skyrocket because we've destroyed the systems of society that existed for the common good and all the global capital is hoarded into a few hundred families, then what do you do?

People's needs can't be broken down into the abject make work of capital just to subside in a system that flatly doesn't care about their human dignity or their ability to function as humans with a well rounded, fulfilled life. Capital is an inherently inefficient system because it prioritizes the functions of capital and the hoarding of it over the common human communal good. Why are we still drilling and using fossil fuels? We know they are killing us and we know that we've less than a decade to prevent major ecological catastrophe. Because they make money. Why are we not working on new generations of anti-biotics to counteract the massive resistances that all major bacterial infections are developing to current strains, on which the entirety of our medical system functions through? Because they don't make money, because there's no profit motive or abject use of capital for that to function as is. Why do we produce more food than we can possibly eat and throw away over half of it, why do we produce mountains of clothing and waste goods that we end up disposing off before use or after a single use? What perpetuates this concept of waste? What enables this system where the communal good is abolished in the name of temporary wealth that doesn't make any impact on the lives of common people in any capacity.

You can't "reform" capitalism to the extent where this doesn't exist, this is the existential form of capital at it's most basic level. You can't break us from the inefficiencies that dictate how it functions without abolishing it entirely. So yes, it is intensely depressing how you've basically just gone "well we're probably fucked but this is still the best bet because people are just inborn to be pieces of shit" and that we've no real options left to combat the coming storm that very easily could doom the species because a few thousand individuals needed to make the imaginary numbers go higher.
We've had massive reductions in poverty levels, war, and on other metrics yes. The information age, trade, have led to less poverty and less war than at any other time in history. Those are things we can actively continue to actively work on. However, alongside that, we've had massive reductions in violent crime in most every country in the globe. And these drops line up to be about 2 decades past leaded gas being banned in that country. Those are trends we likely cannot see continue indefinitely because they're fundamentally based on us altering our biology rather than any sort of meta-progress as a species as a whole.

There's a basic law of economics- You cannot redistribute what you have not produced. If no one works, then no one lives and we all die in a horrible entropic fate. Thankfully, this has not happened. We started off as monkeys hunting and killing in packs before eventually getting to the current point where we figured out how to grow food and create sustainable long-term encampments because of agriculture. Resources will always be limited, and a system that encourages people to contribute in return for rewards for doing so is a good thing. And that innate insecurity and desire for stability and to beat out your rivals that got us here is a double edged sword that leads to a lot of bad behaviors now that we're here that we need to look at and address. But pretending that wealth isn't a thing that should be measured, that money is the root of the problem, is to completely miss that money holds value because you can trade it for other things of value- other people's time, labor, and property.

And it's not a view that we're doomed to cook to death via global warming, it's that I don't believe interstellar planetary travel is achievable and eventually, our cosmic marble will get engulfed by the gigantic ball of fire we circle around. I would also prefer we not do it to ourselves millions of years in advance via global warming. Population declines aren't actually a bad thing for the world- less people = less strain on resources. But the political problems associated with this are very real. (and yes, the lead poisoning thing probably has something to do for it.)
Why is this user being banned for this?

Honestly, that's ridiculous. This is such an innocuous comment and no less than anything weirder or anybody else posts in this thread constantly. There have been repeated posts in poliera that state the same thing and it's just told to "settle down guys".

This is a banning for nothing, it's ridiculous that you want to pretend there isn't a double standard at play, especially when weirder has been actively attempting to formulate some active conspiracy. And I'm not "PM'ing a mod about these decisions" because that doesn't do anything.

There's a clear double standard and measure of favoritism here.
NoC has been banned like 10 times for trolling and their first response to Weirder trolled and attacked them for the Marianne stanning. Look up their post history.
 

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
16,106
Why is this user being banned for this?

Honestly, that's ridiculous. This is such an innocuous comment and no less than anything weirder or anybody else posts in this thread constantly. There have been repeated posts in poliera that state the same thing and it's just told to "settle down guys".

This is a banning for nothing, it's ridiculous that you want to pretend there isn't a double standard at play, especially when weirder has been actively attempting to formulate some active conspiracy. And I'm not "PM'ing a mod about these decisions" because that doesn't do anything.

There's a clear double standard and measure of favoritism here.
You know, if you have any questions I'm more than happy to talk over PMs so as not to derail a thread. I will note though, that we literally cannot see everything and if you have an issue with someone's posts that you should hit the report button.
 

It'sEctoplasm

Member
Oct 27, 2017
299
Today is a pretty good day to release your tax returns, huh. All the millionaire shit and whatever else there is, is going to be completely buried by all the Notre Dame news.
 
Apr 9, 2019
552
CLT
New National Poll- Bernie takes lead!

https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1117752348632334337?s=19

Sanders- 29%
Biden- 24%
Pete- 9%
O'rourke- 7%
Harris- 7%
Warren- 6%

Pete also seems to be making movements higher, much higher, even higher than Beto and Harris.

Also in regards to the tax returns, people speculate he will reveal them on the town hall or shortly after.
Despite the bloviating of centrist Dems and new Yang supporters, I've yet to see any defection from Bernie's camp among my colleagues. Well, okay, I've seen one or two but those are folks moving further left.
 

JVIDICAN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,650
Chicagoland
New National Poll- Bernie takes lead!

https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1117752348632334337?s=19

Sanders- 29%
Biden- 24%
Pete- 9%
O'rourke- 7%
Harris- 7%
Warren- 6%

Pete also seems to be making movements higher, much higher, even higher than Beto and Harris.

Also in regards to the tax returns, people speculate he will reveal them on the town hall or shortly after.
Was posted earlier today. The sample size seeems insanely small for a national poll. 365 people.
 

Blue Skies

Member
Mar 27, 2019
1,132
a bit worried about the idea of yang getting more popular and eating valuable potential bernie votes. i wonder when/if he'll drop out after underperforming in iowa. It wouldn't surprise me if he kept hanging on the whole way through for no reason other than to talk about UBI.
I feel like the people that like Yang aren’t really the primary voting types
 
Apr 9, 2019
552
CLT
a bit worried about the idea of yang getting more popular and eating valuable potential bernie votes. i wonder when/if he'll drop out after underperforming in iowa. It wouldn't surprise me if he kept hanging on the whole way through for no reason other than to talk about UBI.
Worth mentioning that Yang seems to be having a moment amongst NEETs on 4chan and Reddit, so much of the noise you're hearing online is the grinding of gears on a new propaganda campaign.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,195
I actually woke up this morning thinking if his returns were out. This is not meant to be mocking, I just to see the conclusion of this saga.
 

dlauv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,932
These hayseeds underestimate a mayor's true power. It is cute how their faces light up though.

NC really likes this guy.

A Bernie brother awash with righteous impatience interrupts Beto's answer to a girl and Beto gets spicy.
 
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BoboBrazil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Yeah, it's a big difference from Iowa and even SC. Could just be some NC bubble.
He seems to always get large crowds at colleges, but then he does these weird stops like coffee shops in podunk towns that 300 people live in. He still gets.crazy turnout there compared to population, but doesn't come off as well on TV.
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,931
New National Poll- Bernie takes lead!

https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1117752348632334337?s=19

Sanders- 29%
Biden- 24%
Pete- 9%
O'rourke- 7%
Harris- 7%
Warren- 6%

Pete also seems to be making movements. Much higher than even Beto and Harris have moved up. Something about this guy just inspires people.

Also in regards to the tax returns, people speculate he will reveal them on the town hall or shortly after.
This is also a case of what looks good in the Democratic Primaries doesn't necessarily look as good in a head to head race though.

Pete might be making movements, but that same poll shows him performing worse than Beto if the election was tomorrow.

In a head to head ballot test, Joe Biden appears the strongest opponent against Trump of the major Democratic candidates with a 53% to 47% advantage. This result is down 4 points from Emerson’s March poll, where Biden led Trump 55% to 45%. This general tightening is seen in the other head-to heads against other potential opponents: (n=914, +/-3.2%)

  • Biden 53%, Trump 47%
  • Sanders 51%, Trump 48%
  • O’Rourke 51%, Trump 49%
  • Harris 50%, Trump 50%
  • Buttigieg 49%, Trump 51%
  • Warren 48%, Trump 52%
 

Prodigal Son

Member
Oct 27, 2017
725
I feel like the people that like Yang aren’t really the primary voting types
Worth mentioning that Yang seems to be having a moment amongst NEETs on 4chan and Reddit, so much of the noise you're hearing online is the grinding of gears on a new propaganda campaign.
both true, but extremely online and neet types have a hugely disproportionate influence on social media discourse and public discourse as a result. that part worries me. all the tulsi, gravel and yang fuckers need to get with the program already. this is our one shot
 
Apr 9, 2019
552
CLT
both true, but extremely online and neet types have a hugely disproportionate influence on social media discourse and public discourse as a result. that part worries me. all the tulsi, gravel and yang fuckers need to get with the program already. this is our one shot
You're right, of course. I have to say I think Mike Gravel is pretty cool myself, but I think that his appeal is mostly in bringing certain issues to the conversation whether he ends up being a candidate or not (he won't). To that end I think Yang serves a purpose as well, but I absolutely despise most of his domestic policy other than UBI.

Tulsi is... a weird duck. Would never be a presidential candidate but would be an interesting wild card for Vice.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,195
Good for him, but what did he have to hide in the previous 5 years that he waited so long, hm?

Answer me that, BernOuts.
 
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