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Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Going back to the Wii, Kirby's Return to Dreamland was $50, a full price game at the time, as was Kirby's Epic Yarn. Both were million sellers. At least if we're going to compare to previous Kirby titles, it might be best to compare to ones that are more traditional in style.
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
Going back to the Wii, Kirby's Return to Dreamland was $50, a full price game at the time, as was Kirby's Epic Yarn. Both were million sellers. At least if we're going to compare to previous Kirby titles, it might be best to compare to ones that are more traditional in style.

Yeah but Thaguy argument isn't that Kirby shouldn't be $60, though Amazon.com currently has it for $53.70, but rather he arguing that 2D game shouldn't cost $60 because they are 2D and indie games cost less.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,003
Do Kirby games still have a boss rush mode?

I haven't bought a Kirby game since Nightmare in Dreamland and loved that mode. First time I realized how hard Kirby can actually be.
 

Mr. Blue Sky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
366
Do Kirby games still have a boss rush mode?

I haven't bought a Kirby game since Nightmare in Dreamland and loved that mode. First time I realized how hard Kirby can actually be.
Just about every game in the series has had a boss rush with games after Superstar Ultra having a final True Arena mode at the end that compiles the EX version of all the bosses and usually a final surprise boss at the end. They've been getting progressively harder each game
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,315
The Stussining
  1. The gameplay runs at 30 frames per seconds. Menus are 60fps
  2. The gameplay runs at a resolution of 1536x864 when docked. Handheld is unknown. Menus are a full 1920x1080
  3. A single joycon can perform all the actions.
  4. You cannot use Kirby by himself. You need to have allies. They will be controlled by COM if there aren't enough players.
  5. The Allies are fairly clever but they won't just automatically solve puzzles for you.
  6. You can guard, dodge and air dodge....sounds like Smash Bros.
  7. The game has paper mache Waddle Dees.
Didn't even bother reading past this. I am sold on this now.
 

Fuchsia

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,640
A lot of negativity in this thread. People complaining too much, sure, but also people complaining too much about the people complaining.

Game looks great to me. Im still a little bummed the power combinations didn't turn out to be like 64 and instead seem more limited in when exactly you can combine them and how many combinations there are. Besides that though, things are looking really fun. Hope it's challenging in spots.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
On a technical level, Star Allies looks to be doing a lot more than what, say, Breath of the Wild was doing. I wish it were 60fps, but I can understand why it isn't.

No. I really don't think so. Technically, the graphical fidelity on offer in Star Allies is fantastic, but it's not an open world game with tons of physics and non-predictable interactivity. In no way is this game more technically demanding than BOTW, from what I can see.

There are also a few things that I'll need to double check when I get the game in my hands. Initially I thought that I saw objects casting discrete shadows from local light sources, but upon further inspection, it appears that these shadows are caused by a main directional light that's positioned in such a way that the shadows caused by this light source give the appearance of being affected by local light sources.

My point in bringing this up is that there are elements of the game's graphical feature set that take advantage of the restricted viewpoint in a game like Kirby, and there maybe rendering techniques that seem more advanced/expensive than they really are (like shadows cast from local light sources, which is something that BOTW doesn't do). So there's a lot of visual trickery to sift through.

Considering that Rainbow Curse looks and runs better on weaker hardware, I think it's safe to say that HAL has dun goofed here.

That was made by a different studio, and it's effectively an interactive claymation set (complete with reduced animation frames). Whether it looks better than Star Allies is debatable, but it has nothing to do with the development of this game.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Wow, well at least 30fps is justified, looks at that grass texture with all the little sparkles.

Oh and that cute little girl at the beginning will turn out evil and will be the final boss, calling it.

Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize that these are fully 3D detailed environments. The camera may have a fixed perspective, which does help optimize assets and effects, but it's still pretty demanding for the hardware when you consider the quality of the assets/lighting/shading/effects being rendered in the distance.
 
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-shadow-

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
I'm fine with the game running at ~900p-ish. But really disappointed by the 30fps frame rate. I still need to get Planet Robobot (can't find this one anywhere since the Triple Deluxe Select release), guess I'll get that one and buy this one down the line. Does look nice, but still...
 

casiopao

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,044
Some of u guys act like child at age above 5 suddenly is such a great gamer lol.....hell, i even had seen teenagers nowadays who struggle to play Kirby.

Especially with the new touch screen generations. The mindset is baffling me lol.
 

casiopao

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,044
Some of u guys act like child at age above 5 suddenly is such a great gamer lol.....hell, i even had seen teenagers nowadays who struggle to play Kirby.

Especially with the new touch screen generations. The mindset is baffling me lol.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
My son was able to beat Super Mario Odyssey with Assist Mode (with occasional help from dad on some trickier parts). I hope that he is able to play this game, because I think it would be a blast to play a two-player game with him.
 

Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
I haven't read much of this thread, so apologies if this has already been addressed.....but am I incorrect in assuming this is going to be a pretty bad single player game? Having a bunch of AI partners seems like a recipe for frustration.
 

Horror

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
1,997
My son was able to beat Super Mario Odyssey with Assist Mode (with occasional help from dad on some trickier parts). I hope that he is able to play this game, because I think it would be a blast to play a two-player game with him.

How old is he, if you don't mind me asking? I want to buy MO for a relative but think he might be too young for it (he's 5).
 

memoryman3

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,146
It's a toss up between this and Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle. Both of them look absolutely incredible and appear to have similar framerates/resolutions.

I think the image quality, framerate and rather flat models (in Rabbids') case, hurt them a bit. I understand why Rabbids is 30fps because it's 3D, and has a ton of advanced effects you can appreciate, but for Kirby? That franchise was historically 60fps. Why not design the game with the intention of playing well, and hitting that target instead of pushing detailed graphics?

Personally I think the Wii U ports actually ended up being the best looking games especially in handheld mode, because they have the best balance with graphical quality, framerate and resolution.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
How old is he, if you don't mind me asking? I want to buy MO for a relative but think he might be too young for it (he's 5).

He turned five in July. He needed more help on some levels (Bowser's Kingdom I had to do more of then usual) and others he just needed guidance (like telling him to capture the fish in the Lake Kingdom to get around easier). All in all, I was supremely impressed with how accessible Mario Odyssey was for him. He straight up can't do some things (like win a Koopa race, or capture the flying birds) but he has gotten pretty good at the jumping mechanics and he has the natural curiosity needed to find moons. He made it to the final stage of the Dark Side of the Moon, for instance (he doesn't understand the mechanics of the gaint robot fight at the end).
 

Horror

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
1,997
He turned five in July. He needed more help on some levels (Bowser's Kingdom I had to do more of then usual) and others he just needed guidance (like telling him to capture the fish in the Lake Kingdom to get around easier). All in all, I was supremely impressed with how accessible Mario Odyssey was for him. He straight up can't do some things (like win a Koopa race, or capture the flying birds) but he has gotten pretty good at the jumping mechanics and he has the natural curiosity needed to find moons. He made it to the final stage of the Dark Side of the Moon, for instance (he doesn't understand the mechanics of the gaint robot fight at the end).

That's so cool! Did you play multiplayer with him, too? Was it easier for him to play the game solo in assist mode than it was playing with you via multiplayer (w/ you as Cappy)?
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
That's so cool! Did you play multiplayer with him, too? Was it easier for him to play the game solo in assist mode than it was playing with you via multiplayer (w/ you as Cappy)?

We tried the multiplayer but it was more of a hindrance than anything. One of the easiest mechanics for a kid to grasp is throwing the hat, and taking control of that mechanic didn't make the game more fun for him.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,657
The Milky Way
864p and 30fps?! It's a shame because the beautiful art on these games would really shine through so much more at higher resolutions and with cleaner IQ. That said, it's likely to be 720p handheld and will look lovely on the screen native. 30fps is still annoying though for a 2D platformer, especially when SMO is an almost-locked 60fps and is doing a hell of a lot more at the same resolution.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
I think the image quality, framerate and rather flat models (in Rabbids') case, hurt them a bit. I understand why Rabbids is 30fps because it's 3D, and has a ton of advanced effects you can appreciate, but for Kirby? That franchise was historically 60fps. Why not design the game with the intention of playing well, and hitting that target instead of pushing detailed graphics?

Personally I think the Wii U ports actually ended up being the best looking games especially in handheld mode, because they have the best balance with graphical quality, framerate and resolution.

I don't understand how you can understand how M+R is 30fps but not Kirby. BOTH games are fully 3D and utilize many modern rendering techniques, they both have limited camera perspectives, and run at similar resolutions. Unless you meant that even though you understand why Kirby runs at 30fps, you'd still prefer a 60fps version with downgraded graphics. In that case, I'd say I'd prefer both games to be 60fps with downgrades, but it is what it is.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584


This is just... perfect...


That is absolutely gorgeous.


People need to take a step back and realise that the majority of HALs games are either low resolution handheld games or older 480p console games. They're gonna need some time to adjust to HD development and optimise their engine.

That said, both this and Rainbow Curse are amazing eye candy.
 

Kain-Nosgoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,532
Switzerland
Name one Switch game that runs at 1080p60fps and looks better than Kirby: Star Allies. I'll wait.

Mario Kart 8? Not better, but close IMO... Anyway, where did i say it should run at 1080p/60 fps? Nowhere....I just said it should have been at least 1080p... With these graphics on a 2D plane, it should have been 900p/60 fps or 30 fps/1080p

Or let us the choice to pick 720p/60 fps at the minimum like on fire emblem warriors
 
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Antony

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,684
PlayStation Home
Name one Switch game that runs at 1080p60fps and looks better than Kirby: Star Allies. I'll wait.
Come on man you moved the goalposts.
It's not outlandish to expect something more powerful than the Wii U to be able to run a 2D platformer at either 1080p or 60fps.
The fact this does neither and adds consistent, disruptive loading screens is disappointing.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Let's be honest here, we would probably take worse graphics if it meant 60fps. It's not like the Switch can't handle 60fps Kirby.

I don't have any problem with this statement. In fact, I agree with it.

Mario Kart 8? Not better, but close IMO... Anyway, where did i say it should run at 1080p/60 fps? Nowhere....I just said it should have been at least 1080p... With these graphics on a 2D plane, it should have been 900p/60 fps or 30 fps/1080p

Or let us the choice to pick 720p/60 fps at the minimum like on fire emblem warriors

Specular lighting/highlights, PBR materials, water shaders/vertex tessellation, shadow quality, texture resolution, alpha effects/DOF, grass rendering, etc. all swing in Kirby's favor. To my eyes, there is a gulf of a difference in graphical fidelity between the two games.

Furthermore, the graphics aren't rendering only on a 2D plane, but along the x, y, and z axes, just like any other 3D game. A fixed camera perspective does not change this, just like it wouldn't change the 3-dimensional rendering of a game like BOTW if you locked the camera to a fixed perspective. We cannot ignore these factors just because the game is a side-scroller.

Come on man you moved the goalposts.
It's not outlandish to expect something more powerful than the Wii U to be able to run a 2D platformer at either 1080p or 60fps.
The fact this does neither and adds consistent, disruptive loading screens is disappointing.

It's not a 2D platformer, no matter how many times people keep saying it. You want 1080p60fps, give the team a bigger budget, better engine, more time, better hardware, and/or any combination of these factors. Or just downgrade the graphics until you get the desired results. But demanding that the game be 1080p or 60fps AS IS is a wee bit beyond reasonable given the circumstances.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,637
Don't care about res but 30fps is really disappointing. I thought at least Nintendo's own platforming/action games have moved on to 60fps as priority and then design everything else around it. I couldn't give two shits about shadow quality and DOF as long as it stays close to 60fps.
 

MrBadger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,552
Just about every game in the series has had a boss rush with games after Superstar Ultra having a final True Arena mode at the end that compiles the EX version of all the bosses and usually a final surprise boss at the end. They've been getting progressively harder each game

The boss rushes are the best parts of modern Kirby games. Especially Planet Robobot
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Don't care about res but 30fps is really disappointing. I thought at least Nintendo's own platforming/action games have moved on to 60fps as priority and then design everything else around it. I couldn't give two shits about shadow quality and DOF as long as it stays close to 60fps.

See, I can understand this. What's annoying to me is when people come in here and suggest that the game should retain its graphical fidelity while also increasing the resolution/framerate. Like, if the developers felt that that was possible, why wouldn't they do that, given the history of the franchise?
 

Deleted member 9971

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,743
The boss rushes are the best parts of modern Kirby games. Especially Planet Robobot
It will probably have a full EX playthrough too just like Return to Dreamland with the harder enemies and bosses etc.

But yeah Robobot was sooooopo good. And thar boss rush was neato!
If people haven't played it yet do yourselfs a favour and do so someday, it's the best Kirby game yet imo. Haven't pkayed epic yarn yet tho so it still can change! + Star Allies also is a contender in march ;p
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
How so?
Genuinely curious. Not complaining about the performance.

For one, there's simply a whole lot more to render.

The 3D environments are huge, littered with high quality assets, with fairly impressive polygonal subdivision; distant objects and structures that are curved or spherical have nearly perfectly round edges. These assets also boast detailed, high resolution textures. The materials of these assets appear to follow the basic fundamentals of BRDF lighting, with specular highlight distribution varying with each material based on well established physically based models.

The shadow quality is impressive. Lots of blurred samples for real-time soft shadows, with variable color, falloff and density, depending on the lighting conditions and the distance between the shadow caster and the surface onto which the shadows are being cast.

Ambient Occlusion appears to be implemented with an approach similar to Directional Occlusion, resulting in very accurate occlusion of ambient light, as well as indirect shadows.

Grass rendering is a mix between polygonal blades and texture masks rendered in swathes across the grassy fields, giving the grass a fuller, more lively appearance. Specular lighting is also used to great effect on the grass textures (and foliage in general).

Waters shaders use proper refraction vectors to refract surroundings. The surface of the water is animated with lots of tessellated vertices, properly glinted with specular highlights. From what I can tell, however, there does not appear to be any interactive vertex displacement. There are also caustics, but they may just be an effect applied separately to the environment. I'll have to check on that later.

Camera has an actual focal length for DOF, with iterative blurred samples based on focal range and focal loss. No cheap guassian-esque blur like the previous Kirby games.

There appears to be real-time reflections and global illumination as well, but I'll need the actual game in my hands before I can determine the implementation of these features.


I actually intend to do a full analysis of the game after it releases, and wasn't really going to say anything about it until then, but there are simply too many misconceptions keep that under wraps.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
8,686
For one, there's simply a whole lot more to render.

The 3D environments are huge, littered with high quality assets, with fairly impressive polygonal subdivision; distant objects and structures that are curved or spherical have nearly perfectly round edges. These assets also boast detailed, high resolution textures. The materials of these assets appear to follow the basic fundamentals of BRDF lighting, with specular highlight distribution varying with each material based on well established physically based models.

The shadow quality is impressive. Lots of blurred samples for real-time soft shadows, with variable color, falloff and density, depending on the lighting conditions and the distance between the shadow caster and the surface onto which the shadows are being cast.

Ambient Occlusion appears to be implemented with an approach similar to Directional Occlusion, resulting in very accurate occlusion of ambient light, as well as indirect shadows.

Grass rendering is a mix between polygonal blades and texture masks rendered in swathes across the grassy fields, giving the grass a fuller, more lively appearance. Specular lighting is also used to great effect on the grass textures (and foliage in general).

Waters shaders use proper refraction vectors to refract surroundings. The surface of the water is animated with lots of tessellated vertices, properly glinted with specular highlights. From what I can tell, however, there does not appear to be any interactive vertex displacement. There are also caustics, but they may just be an effect applied separately to the environment. I'll have to check on that later.

Camera has an actual focal length for DOF, with iterative blurred samples based on focal range and focal loss. No cheap guassian-esque blur like the previous Kirby games.

There appears to be real-time reflections and global illumination as well, but I'll need the actual game in my hands before I can determine the implementation of these features.


I actually intend to do a full analysis of the game after it releases, and wasn't really going to say anything about it until then, but there are simply too many misconceptions keep that under wraps.
Thank you for the detailed reply!
Those all sound very impressive, to be honest. But I can't help but wonder if they're all necessary in a Kirby game.
I'll happily eat my words if these features ultimately make for a better game, though!
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,478
Thank you for the detailed reply!
Those all sound very impressive, to be honest. But I can't help but wonder if they're all necessary in a Kirby game.
I'll happily eat my words if these features ultimately make for a better game, though!

No problem.

I'm sure these graphics weren't necessary, and I would have prefer the look of the initial reveal for Kirby: Star Allies if it meant that the game would run at 60fps, but not much we can do about that now.