4X Strategy |OT| eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate

OP
OP
Hella
Oct 27, 2017
8,629
The changes sound really interesting, I'm just worried how the AI will handle it. The world congress and climate change stuff means the AI behaving rationally is more important than ever. And given that the base game of Civ6 had AI bugs due to typos for years after release (with some persisting to this day, IIRC) I'm not feeling entirely confident they can pull it off.

That said, I love how much Civ is flirting with grand strategy and roguelike elements. I've felt like that's been its path forward for a while now, and it's nice to see that the devs agree. The climate change, resource management, world congress, and speculative tech trees should all be great strides forward.
 
Nov 7, 2017
10,530
The changes sound really interesting, I'm just worried how the AI will handle it. The world congress and climate change stuff means the AI behaving rationally is more important than ever. And given that the base game of Civ6 had AI bugs due to typos for years after release (with some persisting to this day, IIRC) I'm not feeling entirely confident they can pull it off.

That said, I love how much Civ is flirting with grand strategy and roguelike elements. I've felt like that's been its path forward for a while now, and it's nice to see that the devs agree. The climate change, resource management, world congress, and speculative tech trees should all be great strides forward.
Roguelike elements like what? Technically all strategy games are roguelikes lol
 
OP
OP
Hella
Oct 27, 2017
8,629
Roguelike elements like what? Technically all strategy games are roguelikes lol
There's a few elements of Gathering Storm that are flirting with roguelike-styled mechanics: the end of the tech tree will be randomly generated with future technologies (hidden to the player), and the climate change stuff introduces some random elements outside of the player's control that can permanently and irrevocably affect their cities and plans. I attribute that sort of RNG-based permanence with roguelikes, but I guess Civ's whole thing is already quasi-roguelike.

Genres are hard...
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,378
Yeah and neither does civ?
That was just my example of something common to roguelikes that almost no strategy game does. Unless you’re counting something like XCOM. At least not grand strategy or 4X games.

Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2 campaigns had some persistent upgrades that affected subsequent missions.

I can’t really think of something that does a more traditional 4X game with layered persistent upgrades like a lot of roguelikes because the games can take so long to complete from start to finish anyway. Most roguelikes have relatively quick live/die/repeat cycles by comparison.

Although Dungeon of the Endless is an interesting case that doesn’t get much attention in that it’s a tower defense and roguelike hybrid that you can also play co-op multiplayer if you want up to 4 I think.
 
Nov 7, 2017
10,530
That was just my example of something common to roguelikes that almost no strategy game does. Unless you’re counting something like XCOM. At least not grand strategy or 4X games.

Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2 campaigns had some persistent upgrades that affected subsequent missions.

I can’t really think of something that does a more traditional 4X game with layered persistent upgrades like a lot of roguelikes because the games can take so long to complete from start to finish anyway. Most roguelikes have relatively quick live/die/repeat cycles by comparison.

Although Dungeon of the Endless is an interesting case that doesn’t get much attention in that it’s a tower defense and roguelike hybrid that you can also play co-op multiplayer if you want up to 4 I think.
Oh I thought you were pointing to persistent progress as a feature neither genre has a lot of
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,378
So DansGaming on Twitch was playing some Anno 1800 closed beta which is at least related to this genre, but slightly different. More in the city-builder or city-management sim kinda thing, but I dunno if there’s a specific thread for those.

Looks pretty decent, but the last couple Anno games have had crippling DRM or bugs.

I really want to sit down and play through a good game of Banished some time though. There’s a few others in the genre I have my eye on that are either out already or hopefully releasing sometime this year.
 
Nov 7, 2017
10,530
So DansGaming on Twitch was playing some Anno 1800 closed beta which is at least related to this genre, but slightly different. More in the city-builder or city-management sim kinda thing, but I dunno if there’s a specific thread for those.

Looks pretty decent, but the last couple Anno games have had crippling DRM or bugs.

I really want to sit down and play through a good game of Banished some time though. There’s a few others in the genre I have my eye on that are either out already or hopefully releasing sometime this year.
I got Anno 2070 iirc a few years back and I dont really get it. I like city builders and simulation stuff but it just seemed so barebones in every aspect tbh.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,378
I got Anno 2070 iirc a few years back and I dont really get it. I like city builders and simulation stuff but it just seemed so barebones in every aspect tbh.
Yeah I think that was another problem with the recent games. The main game in the genre I’m looking forward to right now is Industries of Titan.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,231
Anno is more like a production line simulator than a city sim. You basically spend most of your time optimizing your cart paths so you can get resources to the correct factories.

I mainly play it cause it's pretty.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,774
Speaking of city builders, has anyone tried Cliff Empire? It seems to be another post-apocalyptic city builder (that got completely overshadowed by Frostpunk). The twist seems to be that the building space is very limited, so efficient building turns into a Tetris-like puzzle of fitting all the required buildings into the shape you're being dealt.
It's been in my wishlist for a while and it will probably stay there a bit longer because there's too many games to play at the moment, but I'd really like to try it at some point in the future.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,388
Speaking of city builders, has anyone tried Cliff Empire? It seems to be another post-apocalyptic city builder (that got completely overshadowed by Frostpunk). The twist seems to be that the building space is very limited, so efficient building turns into a Tetris-like puzzle of fitting all the required buildings into the shape you're being dealt.
It's been in my wishlist for a while and it will probably stay there a bit longer because there's too many games to play at the moment, but I'd really like to try it at some point in the future.
I heard it was a really interesting game.

Issue is that we are now in a ¿Golden? era of city builders. Heck, yesterday Foundation came in EA, and it looks like a really interesting more free form type of City Builders.

 

Poodlestrike

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,333
The thing about a lot of city builders nowadays is that they're super heavily focused on the simulation/sandbox aspect of things over all other aspects. Cities: Skylines never really worked for me because of that. It's a great traffic simulator, but there's just not much to do. Or there wasn't in the base version, anyway. Weirdly, I actually liked SimCity2013 on that account. Lot of stuff wrong with it, but the lite production chains, variable resource deposits, etc. Expansion did a great job of fleshing things out.

I'm definitely with Tachya on being interested in Industries of Titan, but the heavy focus on what looks like a pretty uncompelling combat/ship customization mechanic in the last reveal has me wary. If Anno returns to form in this next game, I'm probably gonna dump a ton of hours into it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,388
The thing about a lot of city builders nowadays is that they're super heavily focused on the simulation/sandbox aspect of things over all other aspects. Cities: Skylines never really worked for me because of that. It's a great traffic simulator, but there's just not much to do. Or there wasn't in the base version, anyway. Weirdly, I actually liked SimCity2013 on that account. Lot of stuff wrong with it, but the lite production chains, variable resource deposits, etc. Expansion did a great job of fleshing things out.

I'm definitely with Tachya on being interested in Industries of Titan, but the heavy focus on what looks like a pretty uncompelling combat/ship customization mechanic in the last reveal has me wary. If Anno returns to form in this next game, I'm probably gonna dump a ton of hours into it.
Cities: Skylines can be seen as the evolution of their previous ip "Cities in Motion" which was... focused on traffic! They have improved a lot since launch and I would say the industry now is much more interesting.

A more industry based kinda builder would be Rise of Industry, with more of a focus on the chain of industry and it is more of a tycoon game.

A more rts variant would be the amazing Offworld Trading Company. Still one of the more unique RTS in a long time.
 

Poodlestrike

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,333
Cities: Skylines can be seen as the evolution of their previous ip "Cities in Motion" which was... focused on traffic! They have improved a lot since launch and I would say the industry now is much more interesting.

A more industry based kinda builder would be Rise of Industry, with more of a focus on the chain of industry and it is more of a tycoon game.

A more rts variant would be the amazing Offworld Trading Company. Still one of the more unique RTS in a long time.
I love Offworld, but I'd definitely agree that it's an RTS first and foremost. Rise of Industry has been on my wishlist for a while, but the reviews have always been kinda middling.
 
OP
OP
Hella
Oct 27, 2017
8,629
I wish I liked RTSes more. I like them in concept, but in practice it's always too fast for me to deal with. The closes I've come to loving their gameplay is in Total War, which slows it down a lot thanks to its engagement mechanics and still has the lovable strategy layer on top.

Divinity: Dragon Commander, for instance. I want to love that game so bad, but the combat... I just can't. I'm so sorry, Larian; I'm a bad gamer.
Cities: Skylines can be seen as the evolution of their previous ip "Cities in Motion" which was... focused on traffic! They have improved a lot since launch and I would say the industry now is much more interesting.
Oh... that explains so much about Cities: Skyline.

I kinda love that traffic thing, but I wish the city designs were more rigid or something. I always felt like I was making a city wrong, then getting in a perfectionist death spiral that makes me lose interest. I want my cities to be beautiful, even if I'm incapable of making it pretty myself.

...Which probably means I'd like the last Sim City or something, hrm.
 

Poodlestrike

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,333
I wish I liked RTSes more. I like them in concept, but in practice it's always too fast for me to deal with. The closes I've come to loving their gameplay is in Total War, which slows it down a lot thanks to its engagement mechanics and still has the lovable strategy layer on top.

Divinity: Dragon Commander, for instance. I want to love that game so bad, but the combat... I just can't. I'm so sorry, Larian; I'm a bad gamer.

Oh... that explains so much about Cities: Skyline.

I kinda love that traffic thing, but I wish the city designs were more rigid or something. I always felt like I was making a city wrong, then getting in a perfectionist death spiral that makes me lose interest. I want my cities to be beautiful, even if I'm incapable of making it pretty myself.

...Which probably means I'd like the last Sim City or something, hrm.
Well, Offworld is weird in that it doesn't have combat, as such. The closest you get is a couple of temporary powers that lets you sabotage your opponent's buildings. It's all economic action, laying claim to resources and manipulating the shared market. Whoever has the highest value when the timer goes off wins.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,231
I haven't mostly because of the bad reviews it's been getting. I hope Shafer polishes the game up but from his blog posts he seems a little worn out in general.
 
OP
OP
Hella
Oct 27, 2017
8,629
Negative impressions kept me away from At the Gates too. No coverage of it has been positive, that I've seen (from RPS, PC Gamer, or Giant Bomb; Waypoint might've been neutral on it, though). Like, for as interesting as the pitch is, it sounds like the midgame is just going through the motions to victory. There is no struggle or challenge, and your only real opponent is your own planning. It just sounds... boring.

In terms of 4X where people are a key part of your empire, I'd go with Thea 2: The Shattering. It's still in Early Access but shows a lot more promise.


Right now I'm eagerly awaiting Civ6: Gathering Storm. It seems like that'll be a really good xpac.
 
Oct 27, 2017
596
Portugal
So if i waste 30€ on steam i get a 5€ discount.
I'm thinking of getting DLC for darkest dungeon. That makes 8 euro!!!

What do you guys recomend i buy with the other 22€?
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,774
Either DLC for a game you play (Endless Space2, Endless Legend, Civ6, whatever Paradox) or a new game. What do you like?

Personally, I'm still playing a lot of ES2 and a bit of Dominions5, and I didn't want to buy another 100h game I'll never play past the tutorial... so I just preordered Sekiro and called it a day. Lame, I know.
 
OP
OP
Hella
Oct 27, 2017
8,629
So if i waste 30€ on steam i get a 5€ discount.
I'm thinking of getting DLC for darkest dungeon. That makes 8 euro!!!

What do you guys recomend i buy with the other 22€?
Total Warhammer 1/2 DLC

But Battletech is the thing that jumps out at me at that price, if you like that sort of XCOM-y kind of game. Or Civ6 deluxe, assuming you don't own it already. IIRC buying Gathering Storm will net you everything from the previous xpac except the new civs, which is a pretty good upgrade plan from there, assuming you're not dead set on playing any of those civs.

DLC for a game you already own is probably the most sensible answer.
 
Oct 27, 2017
596
Portugal
Either DLC for a game you play (Endless Space2, Endless Legend, Civ6, whatever Paradox) or a new game. What do you like?

Personally, I'm still playing a lot of ES2 and a bit of Dominions5, and I didn't want to buy another 100h game I'll never play past the tutorial... so I just preordered Sekiro and called it a day. Lame, I know.
I'm probably looking for a new game, i wonder if CIV 6 would be cool with the latest expansion.
I have been on the row this year with wolfenstein 2, BFG2 in january; EDF, vermintide + whatever i get on sale in February; i'm probably getting 3k and tropico 6 in March.
That said i still don't have most DLCs for ES2 and the last DLC for EL. Those are my last resort if i don't see anything new.
i have all DLC i like from paradox with the exception of the golden century. I was waiting for either a new DLC in europe or dharma to get cheaper so i have an excuse to get it before replaying EU IV again.


Total Warhammer 1/2 DLC

But Battletech is the thing that jumps out at me at that price, if you like that sort of XCOM-y kind of game. Or Civ6 deluxe, assuming you don't own it already. IIRC buying Gathering Storm will net you everything from the previous xpac except the new civs, which is a pretty good upgrade plan from there, assuming you're not dead set on playing any of those civs.

DLC for a game you already own is probably the most sensible answer.
I want more total warhammer DLC, CA please! my euros are waiting.
I haven't played CIV 6 much so i am unsure if i'd be willing to buy the expansions for 60€. wait so if I bought just the latest one i get all the features from the previous one except the civs? then i'd just wait for a sale if i want to play those. That is indeed interesting.

I got battletech, i haven't played it much because the AI outsmarted me 2 and I quited the game for now. It was embarrassing to lose my char...


There are very few DLC i am missing, and of those that i am missing they don't have a great sale. So i'm probably looking more to a new game


Any more ideas? ( i have 2000 steam games so i am picky!)
 
OP
OP
Hella
Oct 27, 2017
8,629
I want more total warhammer DLC, CA please! my euros are waiting.
I haven't played CIV 6 much so i am unsure if i'd be willing to buy the expansions for 60€. wait so if I bought just the latest one i get all the features from the previous one except the civs? then i'd just wait for a sale if i want to play those. That is indeed interesting.

I got battletech, i haven't played it much because the AI outsmarted me 2 and I quited the game for now. It was embarrassing to lose my char...


There are very few DLC i am missing, and of those that i am missing they don't have a great sale. So i'm probably looking more to a new game


Any more ideas? ( i have 2000 steam games so i am picky!)
I'm pretty sure that's how Gathering Storm will work. With GS, you'll be missing Civs + Wonders from Rise and Fall, but nothing else. That's what a few places (here and otherwise) are saying but I can't find official confirmation.

It's surprisingly difficult to find some good stuff. Like, now I'm struggling to answer the same question for myself. I have something for $10 but all of the expensive stuff is cheaper off-Steam (on Fanatical). Edit: Omg I did it, I found a good combo to hit the discount. huzzah

For strategy games, Wargroove is probably the best bet simply because it's so new nowhere else will have a deal on it, but I think even then you'd be a few bucks short. It's a good Advance War-style game, if you're familiar with the series. (It's a tactical wargame.)

Edit: Oh there's Gladius: Relics of War. It's a Warhammer 40k 4X, focused on conquest. It seems similar to Warlock: Master of the Arcane, though I haven't played Gladius myself. I dunno that -25% off is a great price for it but yeah.
 
Last edited:
Oct 31, 2017
4
Are there any 4X games in the vein of Civ, that factor in your choices in the tech tree/civics etc and rule out development down a different branch?

As much as I like Civ, by the endgame, usually every single tech and civic is unlocked. I think it would make for a more interesting/challenging game if a decision you made back in the medieval era meant that you were unable to unlock access to certain techs/civics in future.

So, if you were to mainline religion/faith based mechanics in the early game, it would be far more difficult or impossible to unlock access to advanced science based stuff in the modern era.

Or if you were to expand your naval power, that could then limit your ability to build a strong airforce etc etc.

I know Civ does have some limits in this area (improvements to encampments and Gov plazas are limited to a single path etc), but it might be interesting to scale this up.
 
OP
OP
Hella
Oct 27, 2017
8,629
Are there any 4X games in the vein of Civ, that factor in your choices in the tech tree/civics etc and rule out development down a different branch?

As much as I like Civ, by the endgame, usually every single tech and civic is unlocked. I think it would make for a more interesting/challenging game if a decision you made back in the medieval era meant that you were unable to unlock access to certain techs/civics in future.

So, if you were to mainline religion/faith based mechanics in the early game, it would be far more difficult or impossible to unlock access to advanced science based stuff in the modern era.

Or if you were to expand your naval power, that could then limit your ability to build a strong airforce etc etc.

I know Civ does have some limits in this area (improvements to encampments and Gov plazas are limited to a single path etc), but it might be interesting to scale this up.
I think 4Xes just tend to make unique tech trees instead of making one large tech tree that's exclusionary. GalCiv, for example, does this IIRC.

Stellaris would get the closest to what you're suggesting, I think. It randomly rolls an array of potential techs to research under three categories, and you pick one of each to research. So, theoretically, two identical empires at the start can branch out a lot from there based on their techs alone. (In practice you kinda end up with mostly the same techs in the end, though. But it takes a while to get to that point, and things like research agreements encourage empires to reach a tech parity.)


Civ6 will be going down that path more in the new expansion, but it will be based more on resources. Like, do you use them up early game to beef yourself up and risk consequences, or try to preserve them?
 
Oct 31, 2017
4
I think 4Xes just tend to make unique tech trees instead of making one large tech tree that's exclusionary. GalCiv, for example, does this IIRC.

Stellaris would get the closest to what you're suggesting, I think. It randomly rolls an array of potential techs to research under three categories, and you pick one of each to research. So, theoretically, two identical empires at the start can branch out a lot from there based on their techs alone. (In practice you kinda end up with mostly the same techs in the end, though. But it takes a while to get to that point, and things like research agreements encourage empires to reach a tech parity.)


Civ6 will be going down that path more in the new expansion, but it will be based more on resources. Like, do you use them up early game to beef yourself up and risk consequences, or try to preserve them?
I really need to give Stellaris a proper go. I picked it up a while back but have only dabbled briefly.

I'm liking the look of Gathering Storm, and changes to resource management and effects on future eras (like global warming) sound cool.

I guess I'm just guilty of playing Civ the same way over and over again, and end up chasing a science victory everytime simply by ramping up science and production in the late game (and nuking rivals who are doing the same). It would be nice if making decisions in the early game had lasting consequences later on.
 
Oct 27, 2017
596
Portugal
Friends! any more ideas?

thank you. i appreciate it!
Are there any 4X games in the vein of Civ, that factor in your choices in the tech tree/civics etc and rule out development down a different branch?

As much as I like Civ, by the endgame, usually every single tech and civic is unlocked. I think it would make for a more interesting/challenging game if a decision you made back in the medieval era meant that you were unable to unlock access to certain techs/civics in future.

So, if you were to mainline religion/faith based mechanics in the early game, it would be far more difficult or impossible to unlock access to advanced science based stuff in the modern era.

Or if you were to expand your naval power, that could then limit your ability to build a strong airforce etc etc.

I know Civ does have some limits in this area (improvements to encampments and Gov plazas are limited to a single path etc), but it might be interesting to scale this up.
I'm going to add a bit to what hella said about stellaris.
IMO stelaris is the only game that does something similar to what you describe by doing 3 things:
  1. each ethos buffs/AI push civilizations into a certain path (so expect warrior societies to push for war while pacifist will have "tall" empires)
  2. Research tree being semi-random means that as a player you will probably have certain areas of technology very advanced while needeing to have diplomatic deals with other factions to get other research
  3. The more advanced ascension perks are a "lock in" system, if you go cybernetic you can't go biological. For example as a spiritualist you can get psychic powers but that will stop you from following the other paths
If you combine those 3 things most empires in a galaxy should feel relatively unique. If you play with a friend you will probably see how different the playthrough may happen.
The 3rd point does what you say. You can use it to specialize your race in certain way, for example you can give it a bigger fleet or boost your research, etc. You have (if ir emember correctly) 8 slots and there are about 20 you can chose from.

Do note that if you play stellaris enough time (i think it would be about 300 years) then almost all races will have all techs but each will have different buffs. (obviously the races that were late to FTL flight will not have all techs as that they would need to survive at least 300 years from their start)
 
Oct 31, 2017
4
Friends! any more ideas?


thank you. i appreciate it!

I'm going to add a bit to what hella said about stellaris.
IMO stelaris is the only game that does something similar to what you describe by doing 3 things:
  1. each ethos buffs/AI push civilizations into a certain path (so expect warrior societies to push for war while pacifist will have "tall" empires)
  2. Research tree being semi-random means that as a player you will probably have certain areas of technology very advanced while needeing to have diplomatic deals with other factions to get other research
  3. The more advanced ascension perks are a "lock in" system, if you go cybernetic you can't go biological. For example as a spiritualist you can get psychic powers but that will stop you from following the other paths
If you combine those 3 things most empires in a galaxy should feel relatively unique. If you play with a friend you will probably see how different the playthrough may happen.
The 3rd point does what you say. You can use it to specialize your race in certain way, for example you can give it a bigger fleet or boost your research, etc. You have (if ir emember correctly) 8 slots and there are about 20 you can chose from.

Do note that if you play stellaris enough time (i think it would be about 300 years) then almost all races will have all techs but each will have different buffs. (obviously the races that were late to FTL flight will not have all techs as that they would need to survive at least 300 years from their start)
That sounds like it ticks a lot of the boxes for me. I really need to spin up Stellaris again. I've only played it a couple of times to try out the Star Trek mod (which was pretty cool). Think I'll give it another go tonight.

Cheers for the in-depth reply (and to hella as well).
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,261
Italy
I haven't mostly because of the bad reviews it's been getting. I hope Shafer polishes the game up but from his blog posts he seems a little worn out in general.
Negative impressions kept me away from At the Gates too. No coverage of it has been positive, that I've seen (from RPS, PC Gamer, or Giant Bomb; Waypoint might've been neutral on it, though). Like, for as interesting as the pitch is, it sounds like the midgame is just going through the motions to victory. There is no struggle or challenge, and your only real opponent is your own planning. It just sounds... boring.

In terms of 4X where people are a key part of your empire, I'd go with Thea 2: The Shattering. It's still in Early Access but shows a lot more promise.


Right now I'm eagerly awaiting Civ6: Gathering Storm. It seems like that'll be a really good xpac.
Got it, same stuff i've heard around. Shame cause i liked some of the ideas

I'll check it in 6 months to see if it's improved

i've got Dawn of Man, Ymir and the new Age of Wonders in my sight for this year
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,388

Someone here was interested in AoW:Planetfall. It looks cool.

Edit: Seems that there are more race specific tech, which is always cool. Moving to a less Civ (every race/civ is the same with just some small differences) to a more asymmetric / unique experience with each race is a good avenue of development for new 4x.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,378

Someone here was interested in AoW:Planetfall. It looks cool.

Edit: Seems that there are more race specific tech, which is always cool. Moving to a less Civ (every race/civ is the same with just some small differences) to a more asymmetric / unique experience with each race is a good avenue of development for new 4x.
OOH, I'll take a look at this later. Been excited to learn more about this game.

Unrelated question, but the Gathering Storm expansion for Civ 6 looks really good and I'm excited for it, even if I probably don't have the budget (time or money) to buy it on launch. However, I was curious if anyone has noticed any major holes for the game that might be left after this expac? Can always add more civs to play as, but those can be done as small-scale DLC. I don't know off the top of my head if there will be any major systems or anything else that might seem missing compared to previous Civ games, or just in general for 4X games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,388
OOH, I'll take a look at this later. Been excited to learn more about this game.

Unrelated question, but the Gathering Storm expansion for Civ 6 looks really good and I'm excited for it, even if I probably don't have the budget (time or money) to buy it on launch. However, I was curious if anyone has noticed any major holes for the game that might be left after this expac? Can always add more civs to play as, but those can be done as small-scale DLC. I don't know off the top of my head if there will be any major systems or anything else that might seem missing compared to previous Civ games, or just in general for 4X games.
Good AI?

Its a joke...

Kinda...

I would say the game need an expansion that changes all the religion stuff and doesnt make it suck. Otherwise, I dont think there is anything else from previous Civs that I can remember from memory. (Asked in Discord and nobody answered :( )

I would also like to point out that buying this expansion will get you access to all the mechanics of Rise and Fall (without scenarios nor civs), as it is common in Civ.
 
Oct 25, 2017
965
One of the issues with Civ 6 is that it launched with a lot of systems that used to be expansion features in previous games - but they are all pretty crappy. Culture, Religion and Espionage are all half-baked versions of what’s come before that could really do with a significant revamp. Heck, they revamped religion once already and it’s still bad. An expansion that rebuilt those systems from the ground up, plus a more developed ideology system like in Civ 5 for endgame conflict, would be a lot more welcome than further systems right now.
 

Anno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,767
Columbus, Ohio
OOH, I'll take a look at this later. Been excited to learn more about this game.

Unrelated question, but the Gathering Storm expansion for Civ 6 looks really good and I'm excited for it, even if I probably don't have the budget (time or money) to buy it on launch. However, I was curious if anyone has noticed any major holes for the game that might be left after this expac? Can always add more civs to play as, but those can be done as small-scale DLC. I don't know off the top of my head if there will be any major systems or anything else that might seem missing compared to previous Civ games, or just in general for 4X games.
CiVI was relatively feature complete compared to the end of CiV even at launch. The only big system missing was the World Congress and a diplomatic-style victory which is coming back now. I guess maybe Ideologies could be thought of that way too? I don’t know that they’re on the same level though.

There’s plenty of room to still expand, though. Modeling health/disease, a more robust economy and corporations, expanding the future-era. It’s really just if they want to do another expansion or leave it at the usual 2. I hope they do.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,388
Ideologies are kinda in, with the whole civic tree. I guess yeah, corporations like Civ4 and health.

Health and Diseases could be a good guess of the next expansion (if there is), as both expansion have focused on trying to give more reactive elements to the game, trying to stop you from always playing the same elements.

Edit: if they do not make a third expansion, I hope they revisit the Beyond Earth idea. But they should drop the Civilization name and try to be more unique. Civ:BE just felt too similar. However the map design and tech ideas were cool (yet a little bit lame and needed more wtf ones).
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,378
Good AI?

Its a joke...

Kinda...

I would say the game need an expansion that changes all the religion stuff and doesnt make it suck. Otherwise, I dont think there is anything else from previous Civs that I can remember from memory. (Asked in Discord and nobody answered :( )

I would also like to point out that buying this expansion will get you access to all the mechanics of Rise and Fall (without scenarios nor civs), as it is common in Civ.
Haha.

I think the AI issue in games, especially strategy games is very, very hard, and often not worth the amount of time and money developers would have to put into it. You could seriously spend half the budget on AI development or something and it still probably wouldn't be that good. Especially when you typically want players to be able to win, even if it's just barely.

I had Rise and Fall already anyway from around whenever it released, but I've just recently bought the new Endless Legend and Endless Space 2 DLCs, and the new Stellaris DLC (+ older ones I was missing), among other things, so I can wait on Gathering Storm a bit. Those are just the recent strategy game purchases that I haven't even had time to sink into.

Also you mentioned Discord, is there an Era 4X/Strategy Discord that I don't know about? Or were you referring to some other one.


EDIT: Oh and speaking of Beyond Earth, I should give that a look over again sometime. I bought both it and the expansion and I never really had time to sit down and play through a game and evaluate it. I know the reactions were mixed or negative, but I don't think the game was that bad, besides the part where they were selling it as a full price game when it was essentially a very well-developed mod for Civ 5.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,388
Also you mentioned Discord, is there an Era 4X/Strategy Discord that I don't know about? Or were you referring to some other one.
PC one, we have a small group of Paradox fans (which also works as a 4x group in the end).

Edit: About the AI issues. Yeah, it is not really possible nowadays to make an AI strong enough to handle a strategy game, and even if you could, it might have too much power that it makes the game not fun at all. I dont really blame the developer in most of those situations. I just wanted to make a quick jab to Civ6 issues with AI at launch (and which continued for a bit).
 
Oct 25, 2017
965
I think there’s a difference between wanting an AI to be great, and wanting an AI that actually understands the basics of the game it’s playing. The Civ 6 AI *still* does not understand a whole bunch of very basic concepts, including:

1) aircraft and navies
2) settling positions
3) what to do with blocked units
4) how to take cities

It is noticeably worse at very basic elements of the game than Civ 5 which is very frustrating. Heck, until last summer it wouldn’t ever choose a government type other than monarchy due to bugs in the game that were only discovered by players.
 

Iggy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,774
An AI in a 4X can try to be two things: either an opponent who does everything in its power to win and uses all systems to their advantage, or try to role-play the race/civilization it's playing as, to make immersion better.
Paradox games are most of the time of the former category, since they rarely work with autonomous factions.
The Endless games and Civ seems to be more of the second category. But I think the diplomacy game screwed over the Civ role-playing AI and made it some strange back-stabbing psycho in 5, and in 6 it devolved further into being some random nuisance you were better off ignoring in time of peace. Civ6's AI makes it impossible to role-play, and only succeeds as a competent "opponent AI" when starting with huge bonuses. The last expansion pushed a lot of diplomacy elements in order to prevent the AI from making the most ludicrous choices, but it didn't really work... Civ6 is very hard to play in as a role-player, you either stomp or drown.
 

Anno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,767
Columbus, Ohio
AI is kinda why I won’t be totally bummed if this is the last expansion and they push out the full .dll for modders. I’ve been very spoiled by years of playing Vox Populi.
 

Poodlestrike

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,333
Are there any 4X games in the vein of Civ, that factor in your choices in the tech tree/civics etc and rule out development down a different branch?

As much as I like Civ, by the endgame, usually every single tech and civic is unlocked. I think it would make for a more interesting/challenging game if a decision you made back in the medieval era meant that you were unable to unlock access to certain techs/civics in future.

So, if you were to mainline religion/faith based mechanics in the early game, it would be far more difficult or impossible to unlock access to advanced science based stuff in the modern era.

Or if you were to expand your naval power, that could then limit your ability to build a strong airforce etc etc.

I know Civ does have some limits in this area (improvements to encampments and Gov plazas are limited to a single path etc), but it might be interesting to scale this up.
I'm going to sound a bit like a broken record (feels like I mention this game every time I post in the thread lately) but Sword of the Stars did a thing where a lot of techs were % chance based - your tech tree was never quite the same every game. Since you didn't "see" the techs before you unlocked the perquisites, this could lead to some badly scattered plans if you needed a certain technology for your ship designs and found out you weren't going to get it two or three techs into the tree. Furthermore, the % chance to get any given tech was tweaked by your faction choice. A species' preference for kinetic weaponry was expressed by their having a better chance of getting the relevant sidegrades and higher-level stuff, for instance.

The actual completion time to research was randomized too, so your scientists would often go "over budget" and end up taking longer than expected. Sometimes way longer, to the point you're better off abandoning the research until you can go back to it with more resources. This was never told to you in advance, btw. It was just an unpleasant surprise.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,378
I'm going to sound a bit like a broken record (feels like I mention this game every time I post in the thread lately) but Sword of the Stars did a thing where a lot of techs were % chance based - your tech tree was never quite the same every game. Since you didn't "see" the techs before you unlocked the perquisites, this could lead to some badly scattered plans if you needed a certain technology for your ship designs and found out you weren't going to get it two or three techs into the tree. Furthermore, the % chance to get any given tech was tweaked by your faction choice. A species' preference for kinetic weaponry was expressed by their having a better chance of getting the relevant sidegrades and higher-level stuff, for instance.

The actual completion time to research was randomized too, so your scientists would often go "over budget" and end up taking longer than expected. Sometimes way longer, to the point you're better off abandoning the research until you can go back to it with more resources. This was never told to you in advance, btw. It was just an unpleasant surprise.
I need to check out this game sometime, even if it’s only through video and isn’t playable by modern standards. Apparently there was a sequel too that was a fat bomb and maybe killed the franchise.

Sounds sort of similar to the Stellaris tech cards, but a bit more in-depth/nuanced.
 

Poodlestrike

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,333
I need to check out this game sometime, even if it’s only through video and isn’t playable by modern standards. Apparently there was a sequel too that was a fat bomb and maybe killed the franchise.

Sounds sort of similar to the Stellaris tech cards, but a bit more in-depth/nuanced.
Oh, the first one totally holds up (other than visually). The franchise isn't dead, per se, but it did basically gut the developer. They're making way smaller titles now. The last two Swords of the Stars branded games have been turn based rougelikes.

Yeah.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,378
Oh, the first one totally holds up (other than visually). The franchise isn't dead, per se, but it did basically gut the developer. They're making way smaller titles now. The last two Swords of the Stars branded games have been turn based rougelikes.

Yeah.
Just had a look and it seems the first game is only $2.50 on Steam right now (Lunar Sale). Might look into picking that up, but I need to watch where I spend any money right now. Wasn't even sure if it would be on Steam though.