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4X Strategy |OT| eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate
- Thread starter Hella
- Start date
So I bought Endless Space 2 since it was on sale and all. It's my first space 4x game but I'm having fun with it and I think I'm getting the hang of it. Started a couple of games on sandbox difficulty with a bunch of races to get the hang of the systems.
Is there a beginner's guide of or something you guys could recommend? Some advice on what buildings and techs to prioritize would be nice too, since I'm
Is there a beginner's guide of or something you guys could recommend? Some advice on what buildings and techs to prioritize would be nice too, since I'm
Prioritization is gonna depend on your species pick, play style, and planet availability. Generally, I favor early industry buildings, then a little food, then specializing into either dust if I need more or research if I don't, but if you're playing Sophons you'll want more tech to capitalize on that, Lumeris needs more Dust, etc. One thing that beginners often mess up is overfocusing on buildings. Don't neglect to build up at least a respectable fleet.
The timer for the first pirate lair is... turn 11 I think?
Some species have a good enough starting fleet to handle them (with the starting hero) if they catch them early, maybe with some minor tuning.
Some other species are absolutely helpless (the more pacifist ones) and require careful planning during these first 11 turns in order to get rid of the pirates early on.
Also, take some time to understand your species. Most are geared toward a specific gameplay, and require/ignore other parts. I still remember that time I spent a lot of turns pumping up food tech and buildings for my Riftborns, and then being puzzled their number remained constants...
Some species have a good enough starting fleet to handle them (with the starting hero) if they catch them early, maybe with some minor tuning.
Some other species are absolutely helpless (the more pacifist ones) and require careful planning during these first 11 turns in order to get rid of the pirates early on.
Also, take some time to understand your species. Most are geared toward a specific gameplay, and require/ignore other parts. I still remember that time I spent a lot of turns pumping up food tech and buildings for my Riftborns, and then being puzzled their number remained constants...
Yeah one of the nice quirks of ES2 (and a little in EL) is that the races are more assymetric and have more distinct playing styles and behaviour as AI. But it also means that if you come from a more Civ style of 4x, that will catch you by surprise and make you commit some mistakes.
Pirates are BS in both ES. I dont know how they always make those mistakes. In easy difficulties and playing for the first time, the hardest thing is surviving the first pirate appearance without fucking long term your civ.
Pirates are BS in both ES. I dont know how they always make those mistakes. In easy difficulties and playing for the first time, the hardest thing is surviving the first pirate appearance without fucking long term your civ.
Maybe it's just my play group (I do, or did, a lot of multi ES2) but I always made sure to have at least a few gun-heavy Scout hulls by turn 11. Even if the pirates weren't there, you're just too vulnerable to early aggression without them.
I haven't spent much time with the DLC content specifically, but the update that accompanied it is top shelf stuff.
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As mentioned above, it could use some polish, but the actual improvements have been very welcome. The new planet management stuff is such a wonderful change--not only does it remove a huge amount of micromanagement, but it makes each planet feel even more unique than before. The trade and market stuff also make empire management a much more interesting affair, because maximising both can lead to some interesting set-ups (like the titular MegaCorps using their vast energy credit reserves to compensate for poor production in another area.) that takes a while to get used to.
Even with the AI shortcomings, I think it's a whole lot of fun to dabble with right now. And you will kinda need to dabble for a while--the changes make it feel like a new game.
IIRC Paradox is focusing on bugfixing Stellaris for a while, so I imagine it's going to get polished up in January and maybe February.
IMO it is a pretty good expansion, the free content is probably the best but IMO the payd content is a lot of fun.
Megacorp gives incentive to play tall instead of the usual wide.
The new voices for the advisor are a lot of fun.
Ecunomolis and the trade are very immersive.
The new acension perks and the caravans are very cool and add to the varietion.
Now obviously depending on the way you value the game these features might not be worth the full price.
A bit late, but thanks guys. I just won an allied economic victory on normal with the Unfallen, the early game was a bit iffy with the pirates and slowish expansion. I'm definitely guilty of neglecting my early-game military so I pretty much just kept bribing the pirates until midgame when I got some decent fleets. Luckily, the Cravers spawned on the other end of the galaxy, too. Pretty neat how you can just take opponent's systems if you have vines there.
Think I might try Horatio or Riftborn next.
New EL expansion, by Amplitude. Cant say I expected it to happen. It looks interesting, but their core mechanic makes them look too much like the Cultists. However, Amplitude has always been able to make each race feel unique so I want to see how they do it.
New ES2 expansion. Looks cool and the Hacking mechanic and invisible faction will make for lots of interesting stuff. Will want to see how Hacking is in online mp, but if it works well enough... the new race could rock.
I'm super pumped for the EL expansion. The fact that they're still making DLC at this point continues to impress, and at the worst passing DLC - their visual and sound designs are top notch. A++ studio now, even if they don't have AAA budgets or work in more popular genres.
The new faction does basically seem like a modification of the Cultists like you said, the main difference being that they seem to be able to infest other empire's cities and gain benefits rather than being forced to raze them (temporary cultists bug aside). Rather than relying completely on minor factions, if they can even interact with those as much.
The other new feature is more of an twist on Guardians introduced in the first expansion, and rather than empire made large (mostly military) units, you now have initially neutral ones that can either be tamed to use as a unit yourself, or killed/otherwise subjugated to gain benefits. Like a world boss styled strategic resource.
Both solid increases in the layers of depth, even if not out there innovative.
I missed the Endless Space 2 announcement before reading your post though, I'll have to see what's in that :O
I just don't like Endless Space 2 quite as much as Endless Legend because I find that space travel mechanics, including the space lanes used in ES2 and Stellaris now, typically don't work quite as well as hex systems that model terrain better, even if hyper lanes make more sense thematically than a hex system for something that takes place in the vast distances of outer space. If space lanes were equal to or better than hexes at representing terrain, I wouldn't mind, but at best you get rather simple choke points, and no space-lane having game seems to capitalize much on even that, as opposed to Civ where mountains/rivers/etc. create choke points AND serve as strategic resources. Not to mention if you throw in weather or a similar dynamic system like the upcoming Civ 6 expansion will be doing.
I understand your position, however, I think that hexes on space games are not able to accurately give the impression of how empty the universe is. Even games like Gal Civ, the map feels disconvovulated and pretty awkward for me. Yeah, there has to be better ways to make chokepoints, but I think as of now, space lanes are the best way to build up 4x in space.
Yeah I totally get that they work better for representing the emptiness of space aesthetically, I just don't think they've been developed into as good a gameplay system as hexes.
Hexes for sure work better on more grounded terrain, whether that's land or sea in Civ, EL, or numerous other 4X, turn-based, or real-time strategy games. I'd probably prefer hyperlanes over hexes in an outer space game most of the time, right now they're just an imperfect solution to a difficult problem. Stellaris was kinda interesting with the choice between 3 options at the start for your Civ at launch until fairly recently (2.0?), but it was hard to balance and the other two systems that were cut at least as a starting choice weren't really better for engaging gameplay, which is why they ultimately cut. I think they're still in there though as a tech you can research eventually along with some other more powerful and exotic travel methods.
I somehow own parts of GalCiv 3 except for the latest stuff but I haven't played it. I probably played more of GalCiv 2 but shit, that might've been a decade old at least at that point.
Re: 4x terrain, I feel like ES2 does a great job of making planets and systems feel unique enough that you're forced to famialize yourself with them in the same way that you would the terrain in Civ. Unquestionable best in class for space movement is Sword of the Stars, though. The various FTL systems are so diverse that you're almost forced to come to grips with all of them so you can understand what represents a choke point to who. The Liir go really fast in deep space but much slower near stars, Zuul having to bore their own hyperlanes, Hovers with their gate network... Sigh. Such a cool game.
Huh, I've heard of that game, but only in passing I think. Will have to give it a look.
OH man, it's so cool. The second was... Oveeambitious, and still super buggy. Probably never getting fixed at this point. But 1 is just a delight, albeit not exactly a visual stunner.
Yeah it might be one of those things where the core ideas were really good, but the game lacked polish and didn't catch on. Smart developers for other games would see the best qualities and incorporate them into their own projects though.
Okay I watched more of the Dev Stream about the Endless Space 2 DLC update:
I'm so in because the new faction seems RIGHT up one of my preferred playstyles. I'll probably buy the 1 or 2 other DLCs I'm missing if they go on discount next week when the new things release as well.
I hate to overpraise, but Amplitude just seems like the exact kind of game studio that I would love to work for right now based on the quality of their work and apparent internal culture. Only thing would be having to move to France probably lol.
Their 4X games are mostly excellent and have improved over time on average, and they're seemingly not afraid to experiment with smaller projects like Dungeon of Endless either. There's a lot of explore in the Endless Franchise, but they outright said they don't intend to be beholden to it forever either, which is a great sign as well.
I'm so in because the new faction seems RIGHT up one of my preferred playstyles. I'll probably buy the 1 or 2 other DLCs I'm missing if they go on discount next week when the new things release as well.
I hate to overpraise, but Amplitude just seems like the exact kind of game studio that I would love to work for right now based on the quality of their work and apparent internal culture. Only thing would be having to move to France probably lol.
Their 4X games are mostly excellent and have improved over time on average, and they're seemingly not afraid to experiment with smaller projects like Dungeon of Endless either. There's a lot of explore in the Endless Franchise, but they outright said they don't intend to be beholden to it forever either, which is a great sign as well.
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Speaking of space 4Xes, Stellaris got a patch (and a new beta patch) put out today. Meaty list of improvements in the beta one, in particular.
One cool touch is they're adding new emblems in part due to how rocky Megacorps' release has been, as thanks for players help in testing (I guess):
And y'know, Stellaris: Legion sounds like a good name for some kind of Species Pack. I've mentioned this in other threads, but I'm not giving up the dream of a Hive Mind-focused Species Pack. You can do it, Paradox!
One cool touch is they're adding new emblems in part due to how rocky Megacorps' release has been, as thanks for players help in testing (I guess):
And y'know, Stellaris: Legion sounds like a good name for some kind of Species Pack. I've mentioned this in other threads, but I'm not giving up the dream of a Hive Mind-focused Species Pack. You can do it, Paradox!
Speaking of space 4Xes, Stellaris got a patch (and a new beta patch) put out today. Meaty list of improvements in the beta one, in particular.
One cool touch is they're adding new emblems in part due to how rocky Megacorps' release has been, as thanks for players help in testing (I guess):
And y'know, Stellaris: Legion sounds like a good name for some kind of Species Pack. I've mentioned this in other threads, but I'm not giving up the dream of a Hive Mind-focused Species Pack. You can do it, Paradox!
Well that's good news, because I bought more out of compulsion than a desire to play, but it seems the people who did actually play the new DLC and patch were pretty pissed about some severe technical issues (and some lesser balance ones), and the earlier dev response was dismissive, even though they almost certainly rushed to get the expansion out for the winter holiday season.
It probably should've released in open beta over the holidays or something. I guess this way they kinda just threw people into it to test everything whether they wanted to or not lol. Even with the issues I still think it's a massively better game than before and probably my favorite strategy game out right now as someone who generally prefers peaceful empire building.
Yeah Stellaris seems to be much more forgiving in allowing empire building that isn't aggressive or at least combat focused as well as role playing with custom built factions from the wide variety of selectable traits seeming to be the norm compared to other games.
I adore the Endless series games and this isn't a particular fault since they still support custom factions, but I'd you do go that route is easy to build something pretty overpowered and the number of traits to select from are pretty low comparatively unless you mod in stuff (which is another thing you can thankfully do! Albeit the community is pretty small compared to Paradox's). You also can't get any visual variety for custom factions either beyond maybe changing the color scheme of a template empire. The pre-built factions in EL have very strong identities and victory conditions that they're best for, unlike Civ where everything tends to blur together a lot.
I actually wouldn't mind a DLC that has just pretty much cosmetic reskins of some existing factions like Mezari = Vaulters (which were a pre-order or digital deluxe reward initially). Art assets you could use to make your own faction for better role play and maybe some extra starting trait choices that modify gameplay. Maybe an additional small side questline or something similar thrown in too. More like the story packs that PDX puts out. They've done similar with the music packs and a few additional side quest DLCs, but not on the level I might want.
The Endless series games are also missing the ability to have some more asymmetric gameplay as far as I remember. The factions are all distinct, but are balanced more or less and just offer a variation in their preferred play style. I'd like to see an option something like the fallen empires and/or advanced AI starts in Stellaris. Not something you want all the time especially in competitive MP, but could add a lot of flavor if included for SP primarily.
I would also like to see the inclusion of some scripted scenarios, but I'd be wary to spend too much time on these because they're usually only worth playing once in these kinds of games. What would be even better than that would be a system that encourages behavior I sometimes see on the Civ subreddit more often where people post saves of unusual or difficult starting positions for people to experience for themselves, a lot like chess puzzle challenges. Having an elegant way in-game to browse and bring attention to the most popular of these and search for specific things using filters or tags could add a lot of value.
Letting people share interesting situations experienced through procedural generation is often more interesting than letting people make and share custom maps/content. I'm not even sure if there's a randomize button for faction traits if making a custom faction, which would be very cool and hardly a leap to implement, even as a mod with the framework that exists. Just indulge in the procedural generation and randomness to create replayability.
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Looks like Steam has an Endless franchise free weekend, where all Endless base games are free-to-play for the next 3-ish days. So that's Endless Legend, Endless Space 1 + 2, and Dungeon of the Endless.
Pretty awesome.
Pretty awesome.
Figured they would have a big promotion with the new expansions coinciding with Endless Day! Gonna take advantage and grab the few DLCs I'm missing I think. Plus the new stuff. Amplitude is a dev that hasn't done me dirty so far and is extremely willing to listen to their audience. So I don't regret buying their stuff ever. It's what other dev studios should strive to be.
I find it funny that the crux of any recent negative reviews is DLC backlash which is uh...you'd rather they not support their games? Or expect free updates indefinitely? But sure.
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Apparently in the promotional email they're also offering the complete Endless Space 1 for free if you sign up to their community Games2Gether website, if you didn't already have the game yet.
Although I find Endless Space 1 to be a bit too rough around the edges compared to their other titles.
Although I find Endless Space 1 to be a bit too rough around the edges compared to their other titles.
Yeah, ES1 is just totally inferior to ES2 (and even more from EL) but it was a fresh of breath air at a time where 4x was down in the ground before the great boom. It was also a great first try for a new studio and I am still happy I bought it during the "beta".
Yeah. I think Amplitude is top notch in UI/UX design as well, which I'm a sucker for and really amps up (heh) their games that might have other faults (combat isn't really a strong suit…)
ES1 had a great UI but was absolutely mediocre in most other respects, yeah. The combat in particular was just bad.
Thankfully Endless Legend and Endless Space 2 have improved on this massively!
Though I still think the combat is a little bleh compared to other aspects. At the same time, if you make the combat too involved in a 4X or strategy/tactics game, it tends to be at the expense of other aspects so I'm not sure what the play is here. Especially in multiplayer if you can't automate or speed things up it's not good for anything beyond 2 players. Real time strategy is better about this than turn-based, but then there's a lot more pressure on mechanical speed and micro than careful tactics and larger plans.
The other thing about combat is that if it's involved in the beginning of the game, it's almost assuredly going to be unwieldy by the end if there's not automation going on for the vast majority of battles. Which is why I really like the early to mid game of these titles much better. I'm not sure if there's really a good way for games to feel like that throughout a match or what. Maybe minimize the time you spend at a complex macro stage by forcing you to cut back down eventually? Dunno.
Honestly, I prefer something like Civ or ES2 to something like EL. Turn based combat with limited-roster unit customization just feels like this hugely unwieldy relic to me. Felt the same about Age of Wonder 3. SOTS did a good job of making the tactical map fun without dragging too much, though it had to do some fairly obvious mechanical hacks to do it (namely, very limited combat timer).
In most of the multiplayer matches of EL I've played it was expected to just use the autoresolve button for every battle against a human. I kind of wish Amplitude had included the option to disable the tile-based combat upon map creation, in favor of the autoresolve.
EL combat looks fun, but when you actually attempt to manage it... the fact that you can't order individual units to move is a neccesary concession to time, but all units moving at once makes the combat impossible to control unless you just want to turtle, and battles still take forever. And yes, the unit customization is super, super clumsy and time-consuming.
EL combat looks fun, but when you actually attempt to manage it... the fact that you can't order individual units to move is a neccesary concession to time, but all units moving at once makes the combat impossible to control unless you just want to turtle, and battles still take forever. And yes, the unit customization is super, super clumsy and time-consuming.
Yeah Id like EL and ES2 a lot more if the combat wasnt god awful in every respect
I sincerely think if Amplitude could make a really satisfying combat system for one of their games they would have one of the best 4x of all time, but even after three games they still can't really make it work. Not that I blame them, exactly, 4x combat is nearly impossible to get right.
Frankly they should maybe just settle for a decent stack combat system instead of trying to make battles that you can watch.
Frankly they should maybe just settle for a decent stack combat system instead of trying to make battles that you can watch.
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Endless Legend kinda has this pseudo Xcom thing going on but without the depth, and the gear system doesn't really have much useful depth either. I watched a year old review the other day and it mentioned something I hadn't really fully noticed before that the hero talent trees don't have any active abilities in them — they're fully passive bonuses.
Not that I want the depth of Xcom tactics for every encounter in a 4X anyway.
But there's certainly room for improvement in one way or another. There's a decent amount of overlap between the genres so it could be interesting to borrow more about what makes Xcom engagements fun, especially if they ever did a full campaign story-type mode.
Not that I want the depth of Xcom tactics for every encounter in a 4X anyway.
But there's certainly room for improvement in one way or another. There's a decent amount of overlap between the genres so it could be interesting to borrow more about what makes Xcom engagements fun, especially if they ever did a full campaign story-type mode.
I... hm. You could do a pretty cool single-world sci fi 4X with XCOM combat. Just have there be some rule in the setting about not fielding actual armies, so all combat has to take place at small scale skirmish sizes, then work your way out from there. I'd play it.
I have something for you, A PARADOX GAME!!! (well kinda):
You can also try Age of Wonders 3 which is also great but it is high fantasy, not Sci-fi. Same with Heroes of Might and Magic series.
Edit: I know you want more a "one unit per area" but that owuld be kinda weird due to scale issues.
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Well, no, not with this idea - I was thinking that it might work to further flesh out the combat (which they seem to be doing in Planetfall, though not as much as I was thinking of here) and general SRPG stuff you get with XCOM. What you'd need to do is build out a justification for why your, as the faction leader, cares that much about individual agents/soldiers, but that would make sense if large-scale combat was impossible for whatever reason and these guys were more like super-elite operatives.
Vaulters spin-off game? With the vaults serving as the Xcom base kinda thing?
Or like a Stargate kinda Xcom :(
That would actually be a dream sort of game — a heavily narrative Xcom-style game set in the Stargate franchise (either Atlantis or SG-1 works, Universe was a bit more different). Or similar enough since the Stargate franchise has been mismanaged for years, and has never had a proper video game.
There was some MMO that was never gonna turn out well and was eventually canceled. And maybe some trashy mobile companion museum style of app released after the shows all ended (oddly enough). There might have been a cruddy shooter that actually released at some point, but I don't think it's buyable anywhere today. It might have only had a PC beta or something I dunno. I think someone on this site I know was an expert on the franchise and the failed game projects — there's some blog or something out there that has extensive research.
Man, you have NO IDEA how badly I've wanted a Stargate XCOM game. That'd be just the perfect franchise melding. SG-1 even had that same kind of progression curve XCOM does, it's wild.
I've got high hopes for the thing the Long War Studios guys are working on. XCOM meets grand strategy is a compelling pitch.
Also yes Stellaris is fucking broken and Paradox's DLC and patch system is fucking it over more than it needs to be. I'm still on 1.9 and don't think I'll ever update.
"Unfortunately, if you lack DLCs like Sword of Islam, Sons of Abraham, and Rajas of India you may accidentally run into several 'Game Over' states if you switch your character to a religion you're not allowed to play as. Check our review for more details. "
lol
The biggest issue with CK2 isn't the amount of DLC, but the fact that the major DLC packs don't even include all related content. It would be like if Civ VI had a Byzantine civ pack that you needed to pay extra to get access to their unique graphics and soundtrack.
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Insert [that is bait] gif
To my knowledge when CK2 launched you could only play as a feudal catholic kingdom. So if you changed religion (for example a family member that suceded you was not catholic) you would get a game over state.
With some DLC adding the ability to play as other religions and governments those game over screens were replaced for those that buy the DLC.
Do you want to elaborate on why you wrote "LOL"?
Gotta say that the environmental thing is much more flesh out than I expected. It also seems like a really interesting thing that might break the normal game flow.
I did say the same about crises in the previous expansion, so who knows if this time it actually works.