Ultimately a ton of men treat us like we're an alien species and that sexual harassment is our fault
60% of male managers now say they’re uncomfortable participating in work activities with women (CNBC)
- Thread starter Khamsinvera
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Yep. I mean there is the extremely rare case where someone decides to shit on you for fun or attempt to ruin your life. But the astounding rarity of that shouldn't be something worth fearing or changing your life over.
That's exactly what it is. There's also the not insignificant possibility that you may ask this woman to hang out after work and she feels pressured to say yes because you're her boss/supervisor, even if she doesn't want to.
uh, no. I said that MANAGERS should not be hanging out with subordinates, especially female ones outside of work because it can end up in career ruining nonsense. I've been management in public and private sector for damn near 15 years, and policies that tell management not to do this aren't rare.
Now can male and female managers on the same level hang out as friends outside of work? Sure. Go nuts. But with subordinates there is a power discrepancy between the two, and APPEARING as if you favor one employee (you ask jane to hang out for beers, don't ask mary or steve) can screw up BOTH of your careers when the accusations of favoritism come rolling in. As mentioned, even if Jane IS the better employee and gets better reviews and raises, the frendship outside of work can undermine that and make it appear as if bias and not the quality of work is responsible.
The study/headline is clickbait here because it confuses legitimate mentoring and one on one work with socializing. The former two there's not much reason to be apprehensive. The latter one IS because it's not work related.
Sometimes the explanation isn't "sexism" kids.
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I can see it. Anything you say or do even when its all from good intentions and respect can be taken out of context or misinterpreted, get you reported and land you in hot water especially when you're in a management position. That's not even factoring in people who are petty and would lie about you out of spite for things you can't prove didn't happen.
Its very easy to say that nothing bad will happen as long as you're not a creep and don't act inappropriately, but you can't control the other variables like however the other person interprets your words and actions. There is always a gap between what you choose to convey and how the other person receives it, I don't think anyone can argue with that.
Its very easy to say that nothing bad will happen as long as you're not a creep and don't act inappropriately, but you can't control the other variables like however the other person interprets your words and actions. There is always a gap between what you choose to convey and how the other person receives it, I don't think anyone can argue with that.
Sure, whatever. Thanks for reminding me how hostile people on this board when you have different opinions.
yeah, petty assholes exist, but they’re rare and if you’re reputation is otherwise great it’s unlikely to actually ruin your life even in the super rare circumstance where such a thing might actually happen
AND THEN SHE'LL RUIN A GOOD MAN'S CAREER WITH HER WOMANLY EXISTENCE
I've taken female employees out to dinner while on travel and it can become supremely uncomfortable when some waiter makes a joke about you being on a date, or thinks you are married, or some shit like that. But that's no reason to avoid treating them the same as you would male co-workers. It takes extra mental effort, not going to lie, to help make that situation comfortable for every one again but that's just in line with being a professional and being a good manager. You don't have to watch what you say if you are decent human being, like I'm not going to blurt out "nice tits!" accidentally because that isn't in my vocabulary anyway.
I've also never been put in a situation when a female co-worker has gotten really drunk. I could see that getting out of control and things getting very misconstrued. I'm not sure how I'd excuse myself from that situation if it was a 1 v 1 outing.
But you are right, it is much easier to avoid the situation altogether. But then you are depriving them of the networking opportunity they'd have if you went to a bar with male employees to watch a game. Work relationships are strengthened incredibly when you are out on the road and bonding over successes/failures/etc.
Which I have never understood. What I say and do is my responsibility. Sexual harassment is never the victims fault. Hell even a guy thinks the girl was "asking for it" it's still up to him or act or not, say something or not.
I work almost exclusively with women and I've no fear of ever being in a "he said, she said" situation.
I'm just not a creep.
It wasn't easy. I used to be a creep. My teenage and early 20s were prime creep years. It's a constant, humbling, learning experience. But, you know, it's worth it to be a better person.
I'm just not a creep.
It wasn't easy. I used to be a creep. My teenage and early 20s were prime creep years. It's a constant, humbling, learning experience. But, you know, it's worth it to be a better person.
honestly I think not hanging out with direct subordinates outside of work is just a good policy in general for a number of reasons, including preventing conflict of interests where someone might be promoted simply because the boss is their buddy
And if that rare, rare things does happen and you've been a decent person your entire life, you have all those people thinking good of you to back you up.
And shit like this and the replies here who totally "get it" is why so many women are radicalizing and joining a terrorist deathcult and identifying as workcels
Oh wait
No they're not.
Oh wait
No they're not.
Ultimately there's a lot of men who find more empathy with sexists and incels than women
Eh, that is really bad for team-building. I've had both male and female manages along with being a manager for both males and females. If you keep everything strictly work there are some bonds that aren't formed that will make you a less effective team.
Is it really that hard to read here? How is saying "she can feel pressured to say yes to after hours socializing even if she does not want to because you are her supervisor" a concern about HIS career?
I’m treating work financed team building activities as separate from completely personal time to be clear
The responses in here are predictable.
Social tides are shifting and the perspectives of traditionally marginalized people, such as women in the workplace, are gaining influence. Many men have had zero preparation for this new world. They've been immersed in traditional masculinity. Their fathers were men's men, and their teachers and mentors and schoolmates and friends echoed the same outmoded ideas and attitudes about men's place in the world, and how men are supposed to treat women.
Media further ingrained their instincts about how a man should behave in everyday situations. The ever-present pressure of gender roles nudged them away from the reading, open dialogue, and introspection it takes to transform a worldview and counter an upbringing that probably didn't put a lot of emphasis on empathy and respect for women.
You can't seriously imagine that the hundreds of millions of men who have been pickled in a concentrate of toxic masculinity for most of their lives will now instantly adapt, with no strain or effort, to a new set of social expectations where behaviors they were raised to consider normal are now not OK. You can't just snap your fingers and expect people to be enlightened.
These managers aren't creeps or assholes just because they find themselves unprepared for social conventions that, from their perspective, shifted overnight. The correct response to the trepidation these men feel about interacting with their female co-workers is not to shame them, laugh at them, or label them: It's to train and educate them so that they can do their jobs as fairly and effectively as possible, and maybe even become better husbands, fathers, mentors, and friends in the process.
Social tides are shifting and the perspectives of traditionally marginalized people, such as women in the workplace, are gaining influence. Many men have had zero preparation for this new world. They've been immersed in traditional masculinity. Their fathers were men's men, and their teachers and mentors and schoolmates and friends echoed the same outmoded ideas and attitudes about men's place in the world, and how men are supposed to treat women.
Media further ingrained their instincts about how a man should behave in everyday situations. The ever-present pressure of gender roles nudged them away from the reading, open dialogue, and introspection it takes to transform a worldview and counter an upbringing that probably didn't put a lot of emphasis on empathy and respect for women.
You can't seriously imagine that the hundreds of millions of men who have been pickled in a concentrate of toxic masculinity for most of their lives will now instantly adapt, with no strain or effort, to a new set of social expectations where behaviors they were raised to consider normal are now not OK. You can't just snap your fingers and expect people to be enlightened.
These managers aren't creeps or assholes just because they find themselves unprepared for social conventions that, from their perspective, shifted overnight. The correct response to the trepidation these men feel about interacting with their female co-workers is not to shame them, laugh at them, or label them: It's to train and educate them so that they can do their jobs as fairly and effectively as possible, and maybe even become better husbands, fathers, mentors, and friends in the process.
Yep. And if you are truly that decent person, you won't have numerous women coming out of the woodwork saying the shit you did.
I agree to an extent, the issue is that most of them actively refuse to be educated
They not creeps unless they are creeps.
Their inability to realize this is the problem, and yes I think they should fucking snap out of it.
It's not hard, at all.
As did I. Official work functions where everyone is involved are a completely separate thing and totally fine.
Because your intial post was all about it, despite you now trying to retcon.
What you claim you said
What you actually said
If you're now gonna claim some deep concern for women, I'm not going to believe you.
So consider this, common thing at my company. You travel to a demonstration that you've worked hard on for the past 6 months. It may be you and another or it may be a group of 10 people. The demonstration goes well, or fails, and everyone needs to blow off some steam. Is it better for everyone to just go their different ways once getting back to the hotel or for them to head to the bar across the street and celebrate/commiserate together? Non-company funded, not required. What is going to build a stronger team for the next demo?
Yeah.
I’m sure a not insignificant amount of these men (hell, probably a strong majority) are garbage, comparable to Pence. But I get just being wary of the optics, as unfortunate as that is.
Yeah, there’s a clear difference between interacting with subordinates in a more casual but still professional setting and doing so on your own personal time completely off the books. Also to be clear This is true regardless of any given parties gender
There is no discrepancy between what I said and my clarification. The issue is that you assume my intent was sexist where it wasn't, and you refuse to be placated otherwise. I'm not engaging with you.
Anyone who wants to have an honest discussion on this one feel free, but you hit my block list.
I meant besides the fact the your first post is entirely about not hanging out with female subordinates because it could ruin a man's career and your second post is claiming your first was about not hanging out with any subordinate
Which outright is not what you said.
But fare thee well I suppose.
Right. It's optics. Even if your intentions are 100% genuine, APPEARING as if you favor that employees over others can invite accusations of bias and favoritism. The power discrepancy between the two means that your employees (male or female) may not feel free to say no, either. There are very good reasons to avoid this.
edit: my first job out of college had an outright ban on workplace dating for the same reasons. Direct reports dating or fraternizing with subordinates was grounds for termination for the manager involved. Two managers in a relationship would have to disclose the relationship immediately, and one or both would be relocated to different districts. It didn't matter how honest the relationship was, the optics involved weren't worth the grief. I'm not going to say the name of the company involved, but they're a multinational over $15 billion a year in revenue right now.
It's a bad idea to make a habit of after hours socializing with your direct reports. You want to do the same with female managers that are on the same level you are? Not really an issue unless you're a creep about it.
The prevailing logic here is that this 60% of men must have something wrong with them to feel such concerns about the implications of being alone with female subordinates.
I'm curious if people here would assert that logic in other everyday scenarios. For instance, its fairly standard practice for male teachers to ensure that they never end up alone with a female student. Does that make them pedophiles?
Likewise. That person seems committed to setting a record for bad-faith, disingenuous arguments.
I'm curious if people here would assert that logic in other everyday scenarios. For instance, its fairly standard practice for male teachers to ensure that they never end up alone with a female student. Does that make them pedophiles?
Likewise. That person seems committed to setting a record for bad-faith, disingenuous arguments.
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So you make training mandatory and you make continued compliance to ethics guidelines a condition for their employment. New norms take time to sink in. Money and career success are pretty good inducements to behave.
The issue might not be complicated for you, but if you think years of social conditioning are easy to snap out of, you're simply not in touch with reality.
How do you "snap out of" the dense mesh of beliefs, associations, and instincts that underlie behavior? Hint: you don't. You force yourself to behave differently to avoid consequences, but to truly rework your sense of what's right and normal is a process. It takes training and thought and time before you can make the right decisions for yourself.
It would be nice if we lived in a simple world where people just magically shifted their thinking on a dime.
No, it's not complicated full stop.
It is not fucking hard to understand all you do is treat people with respect and don't be a creep.
That's it. The "conditioning" is a fucking excuse.
It’s not that they avoid training, it’s that they actively reject what they’re being taught because it’s easier to do so than to admit the flaws in a core mindset they’ve held for decades
As someone who has to take yearly online training for sexual harassment and assault as part of my job (grad student), I can’t imagine anyone who is not already trying to be respectful actually absorbing any of the stuff in the program. They’ll tell the program what it wants to hear to pass the training than laugh it off afterwards
Do you think human interaction is as simple as everything you intend to say or do is exactly how it will be interpreted to other people? Especially someone in a management position will have enough experience working with people to have learned that people are unpredictable, and can draw the most extreme conclusions from the most meaningless and harmless of comments or actions.
When I was younger I believed in the whole friendszone thing but I never thought it was a woman only thing or that it was women in general. I think I have always been able to looks past the outside and see the actual person.
Sad that most can't look past.
I feel like daycare workers definitely make a habit of having the (few) men employed worry solely about helping young boys in the bathroom.
Which is kinda fucked, speaking as someone who was sexually assaulted by a man as a young boy.
But I don’t know that the practice is immoral. I get the impulse, anyways.
Good question. as an off the cuff response, I would say:
1.) are all of the employees involved at the same level? does anyone directly supervise anyone else? If the answer is "yeah, pretty much" and "no, no one is supervising anyone else" then you can do whatever you want after the demonstration, everyone should be consenting adults and there's no need for the company to police social behavior.
2.) If the answer is 'no' and 'one of us supervises one or more people in this work group' then the after demonstration social hour should be an official work function/team builder and expensed as such. employees are free to bow out of the activity, it's not mandatory.
I have precisely ZERO issues working with women including peers, direct reports and bosses. Or as I call them, “mothers. “
In all honesty it’s easier to correct bad behavior in a child than an adult. Adults are far less responsive to new ideas than kids are