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Nov 20, 2017
793
That slur is absolutely at the core of the anti-Semitism = anti-zionism argument. You can't honestly make that argument without also slurring anti-zionist Jews as self hating. It's why equating anti-zionism and anti-semitism is clearly bullshit.

Not really. Tom Bower is also a Jew. I am not, so I'm not going to go too deep into intra-Judaistic racism, but broadly speaking there is a historical precedent of Jews being antisemites and doing antisemitic things, and Bower's now one of them. File alongside Jackie Walker.
 

kradical

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,570
Fuck Tom Bower, he's a crank and you don't go round calling people self hating Jews at a bare minimum. It's exactly the sort of low level shit that the Corbyn lot do routinely and rank hypocrisy to say otherwise.

Amazing how you can have the balls to turn someone calling a Corbyn supporter a self hating Jew into an attack on Corbyn.
 

lemonhat

Member
Dec 6, 2018
219
He went to see jewdas to stick to fingers up to mainstream British Jewry. They are a radical, politically extreme group, and going to their Seder as his 'apology' was a complete piss take, akin to going to see the black Israelites to show you're not racist towards BAME.

This is just appalling. He went because he was invited and he and the group share similar socialist leanings (no doubt if he ignored the invitation he would have been criticised heavily for that by the media anyway). Minority views maybe, but hardly extreme (I'm not exactly sure what you count as extreme). And their views are perfectly legitimate even if you disagree with some of them. So I'm not sure what the relevance of this idea of 'mainstream British Jewry' is. Are there only certain groups or viewpoints that it's ok for Corbyn to mix with? Are young, progressive leftwing Jews beyond the pale now? Can't meet up with any socialists critical of Israeli policies to Palestine? Can he not mix with his local constituents and enjoy their hospitality? Fucking hell.

It's because of people like him that people like me have such a hard time even trying to make people see sense around this.

No, I think that's largely down to yourself.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
This is just appalling. He went because he was invited and he and the group share similar socialist leanings (no doubt if he ignored the invitation he would have been criticised heavily for that by the media anyway). Minority views maybe, but hardly extreme (I'm not exactly sure what you count as extreme). And their views are perfectly legitimate even if you disagree with some of them. So I'm not sure what the relevance of this idea of 'mainstream British Jewry' is. Are there only certain groups or viewpoints that it's ok for Corbyn to mix with? Are young, progressive leftwing Jews beyond the pale now? Can't meet up with any socialists critical of Israeli policies to Palestine? Can he not mix with his local constituents and enjoy their hospitality? Fucking hell.

Jeremy Corbyn was protested by mainstream jewry. In response, he went to a Jewish group which is completely unrepresentative of mainstream jewry, who routinely mock and satarise mainstream jewry, and who just happen to be his political bedfellows. The Jewish groups were asking for dialogue, he talked to himself.

If you don't believe me, ask mainstream jewry. They're pretty firm on the matter.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
Not really. Tom Bower is also a Jew. I am not, so I'm not going to go too deep into intra-Judaistic racism, but broadly speaking there is a historical precedent of Jews being antisemites and doing antisemitic things, and Bower's now one of them. File alongside Jackie Walker.
Holy shit dude, there's so much to unpack with this comment. We out here.

You accuse Bower of being anti-semitic, in response to him accusing another jew of being anti-semitic? You are absolutely doing the same thing as him; you're using the self-hating slur just in not so many words!

Jeremy Corbyn was protested by mainstream jewry. In response, he went to a Jewish group which is completely unrepresentative of mainstream jewry, who routinely mock and satarise mainstream jewry, and who just happen to be his political bedfellows. The Jewish groups were asking for dialogue, he talked to himself.

If you don't believe me, ask mainstream jewry. They're pretty firm on the matter.
The point is that Jewishness is not a monolithic category.

Look, we live in a time where there are genuine fascists and anti-semites who want to ethnically cleanse jews. Those people don't care if you're on the board of deputies or a member of Jewdas, they just think Jew = conspiracy = kill. This whole attempt to slur Labour and Corbyn simply because he is anti-zionists and would, if elected, recognise a Palestinian state is absurd.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
Holy shit dude, there's so much to unpack with this comment. We out here.

You accuse Bower of being anti-semitic, in response to him accusing another jew of being anti-semitic? You are absolutely doing the same thing as him; you're using the self-hating slur just in not so many words!


The point is that Jewishness is not a monolithic category.

Look, we live in a time where there are genuine fascists and anti-semites who want to ethnically cleanse jews. Those people don't care if you're on the board of deputies or a member of Jewdas, they just think Jew = conspiracy = kill. This whole attempt to slur Labour and Corbyn simply because he is anti-zionists and would, if elected, recognise a Palestinian state is absurd.

Not even a little bit. Bower used racial abuse to make his point to a Jew. That doesn't mean that he's a self hating Jew and I never said it did. Many more extreme and conservative Jews abuse other more liberal Jews with this slur and there is a history of it. Stop tying yourself in knots to make me sound racist and just listen to mainstream Jews.

Corbyn's recognition of Palestine is not the reason that so many labour party members and activists have an issue with him. The contents of the post that you're all ignoring is the crux of it.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
Not even a little bit. Bower used racial abuse to make his point to a Jew. That doesn't mean that he's a self hating Jew and I never said it did.

Corbyn's recognition of Palestine is not the reason that so many labour party members and activists have an issue with him. The contents of the post that you're all ignoring is the crux of it.
So, calling a jewish person anti-semitic isn't accusing them of being self hating? That's such a profoundly dishonest argument.
 

lemonhat

Member
Dec 6, 2018
219
Jeremy Corbyn was protested by mainstream jewry. In response, he went to a Jewish group which is completely unrepresentative of mainstream jewry, who routinely mock and satarise mainstream jewry, and who just happen to be his political bedfellows. The Jewish groups were asking for dialogue, he talked to himself.

If you don't believe me, ask mainstream jewry. They're pretty firm on the matter.

Who is this 'mainstream Jewry' you expect me to ask and why do only their views matter? Are the board of directors included in this 'mainstream Jewry,' who a previous poster pointed out were refusing to talk to Corbyn at the time anyway? Who decides who the mainstream are? Are views outside of it not ok? Should Corbyn ignore his own constituents who had given him an invite to their Seder? Should an MP not mix with his constituents? Or just if they don't fit into the mainstream or whatever? Why should Corbyn care about the 'mainstream' anyway when the mainstream in British politics is partly why we're in such a fucking mess (to be clear, I don't mean mainstream Jewry is a cause or anything. More the general political mainstream and the kind of views that are allowed to dominate in the media discourse - the overton window if you will).

He's always cared most about marginalised voices so good on him for going and enjoying a nice Seder.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,291
Nottingham, UK
I wish I had an easy out like that, I'm kinda fed up with this miserable shithole. Are you likely to get one or is it more of punt and hope you get it situation?
I'm absolutely entitled as long as it's done before Brexit, but the final paperwork has not been sent to me despite applying. I'm thinking the slow wheels of bureaucracy may scupper me in the end. Had I actually foreseen the utter lunacy if the last couple of years I would have done this a long time ago.

It is what it is
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
I'm absolutely entitled as long as it's done before Brexit, but the final paperwork has not been sent to me despite applying. I'm thinking the slow wheels of bureaucracy may scupper me in the end. Had I actually foreseen the utter lunacy if the last couple of years I would have done this a long time ago.

It is what it is


That's a bit fucked if you apply well before a deadline.
 

SirJolt

Member
Nov 18, 2017
4
I'm absolutely entitled as long as it's done before Brexit, but the final paperwork has not been sent to me despite applying. I'm thinking the slow wheels of bureaucracy may scupper me in the end. Had I actually foreseen the utter lunacy if the last couple of years I would have done this a long time ago.

It is what it is

Sorry if this is a bit of a derail, but it was my understanding that anyone eligible for an Irish passport would still be eligible after the withdrawal date. Is this not the case?
 

Cocolina

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,988
Sorry if this is a bit of a derail, but it was my understanding that anyone eligible for an Irish passport would still be eligible after the withdrawal date. Is this not the case?

It would be a mistake for any post-Brexit parliament to ask its citizens to renounce any dual citizenship. It won't happen.
 

SwitchedOff

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,516
The absolute state of UK politics is appalling

Yup, and as I've said before, this is what happens when you have a large segment of the public who lack critical thinking, believe whatever the largely corrupt media tells them and are totally disinterested in politics. This causes a lot of really shitty and ignorant people to be voted in as MPs and for things like Brexit to happen.
 
Last edited:
Nov 20, 2017
793
So, calling a jewish person anti-semitic isn't accusing them of being self hating? That's such a profoundly dishonest argument.

No it isn't, you just don't understand the self-hating Jew slur. Self hating Jew is a 'race traitor's trope. Jews can be racist to other Jews, and one of the more common ways this has manifested is the self hating Jew trope. I don't think bower is a self hating Jew, I think he's a Jew who said a racist comment to another Jew.

Who is this 'mainstream Jewry' you expect me to ask and why do only their views matter? Are the board of directors included in this 'mainstream Jewry,' who a previous poster pointed out were refusing to talk to Corbyn at the time anyway? Who decides who the mainstream are? Are views outside of it not ok? Should Corbyn ignore his own constituents who had given him an invite to their Seder? Should an MP not mix with his constituents? Or just if they don't fit into the mainstream or whatever? Why should Corbyn care about the 'mainstream' anyway when the mainstream in British politics is partly why we're in such a fucking mess (to be clear, I don't mean mainstream Jewry is a cause or anything. More the general political mainstream and the kind of views that are allowed to dominate in the media discourse - the overton window if you will).

He's always cared most about marginalised voices so good on him for going and enjoying a nice Seder.

When Kanye West and Donald trump hung out, did you defend him? Was it appropriate for either Trump or West to claim they were representing the relationship black people had with the republican party? No, of course you didn't. Because it wasn't. And it's the same situation with Jewdas.

Mainstream Jewry in the UK is not a monolith but it is largely homogenous. The facts speak for themselves. 85% of British Jews feel that Corbyn is a racist, 90% of them support the state of Israel's right to exist, so how is a tiny group who believe the opposite of that in any way representative and why is it appropriate for Corbyn to say there's no problem, I met these Jews for a Seder, as if that puts things to bed?

He demonstrably does not have the support of British Jews. For reasons I've outlined, which keep getting ignored.

So far as I'm concerned Jewdas are largely an irrelevance, but to paint it as if they're not an extreme tangent of a tiny minority is just disengenous.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
Corbyn could have prevented this from happening if he hadn't acted like such a stubborn idiot.

- Should have come out against Brexit
- Should have adopted that definition of anti semitism immediately
- Should have had a plan


All I see him do lately is make very broad and unspecific comments on his Brexit stance and call for a general election that nobody was going to give him like a little boy.

Now he's whining about this Corbyn tells exiles: you were elected to carry out Labour manifesto which is akin again to a little boy going "But.... but... you said! You promised!"

He has such positive and progressive views (generally) but he's just totally wanking this away.

I'm not a fan of voting for a centre left party, but if they oppose Brexit it's an easy decision for me.
 

Goodlifr

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,886
Corbyn could have prevented this from happening if he hadn't acted like such a stubborn idiot.

- Should have come out against Brexit
- Should have adopted that definition of anti semitism immediately
- Should have had a plan


All I see him do lately is make very broad and unspecific comments on his Brexit stance and call for a general election that nobody was going to give him like a little boy.

Now he's whining about this Corbyn tells exiles: you were elected to carry out Labour manifesto which is akin again to a little boy going "But.... but... you said! You promised!"

How did the Lib Dems do with being an anti-Brexit party?

Corbyn's plan was spelt out in the manifesto and then confirmed at conference.

You may not like the plan, but it's stupid to say there hasn't been one
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
How did the Lib Dems do with being an anti-Brexit party?

Corbyn's plan was spelt out in the manifesto and then confirmed at conference.

You may not like the plan, but it's stupid to say there hasn't been one
The lib dems destroyed themselves after the first coalition government.

The manifesto isn't a plan, it's a collection of general policy areas that they would implement if they were in power.

But they're not in power, so that's not much of a plan is it?
 

Garfield

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 31, 2018
2,772
I get confused at all this anti-semitism levelled at Labour, what is they are doing? I know one of the 7 quit almost solely over this, is it no Jewish are allowed in the party or are they openly against Jews
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
User banned (permanent): Peddling conspiracy theories, arguing in bad faith and hostility over a series of posts, history of severe infractions.
I get confused at all this anti-semitism levelled at Labour, what is they are doing? I know one of the 7 quit almost solely over this, is it no Jewish are allowed in the party or are they openly against Jews

Labour members are abusing Jews regularly and citing antizionism when called out. The leader is a racist with a career long history of defending blood libelers, holocaust deniers and career antisemites.

Think that post above about the MP but several thousand times over.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
Corbyn could have prevented this from happening if he hadn't acted like such a stubborn idiot.

- Should have come out against Brexit
- Should have adopted that definition of anti semitism immediately
- Should have had a plan


All I see him do lately is make very broad and unspecific comments on his Brexit stance and call for a general election that nobody was going to give him like a little boy.

Now he's whining about this Corbyn tells exiles: you were elected to carry out Labour manifesto which is akin again to a little boy going "But.... but... you said! You promised!"

He has such positive and progressive views (generally) but he's just totally wanking this away.

I'm not a fan of voting for a centre left party, but if they oppose Brexit it's an easy decision for me.
They aren't a party though.... aha. Seriously if it wasn't for Tories being so evil I wouldn't vote.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
I get confused at all this anti-semitism levelled at Labour, what is they are doing? I know one of the 7 quit almost solely over this, is it no Jewish are allowed in the party or are they openly against Jews
They didn't adopt the IHRA's Working Definition of Antisemitism until after dragging their feet for a very long time, they stated it's because it mean't they couldn't criticse israel if they adopted it.

Also this left wing grassroots groundswell that Corbyn enjoys has brought with it the good old "Globalist Conspiracy" and this has now infected the party with little effort from the top to stamp it out.
 

Dinoric

Member
Oct 28, 2017
973
Labour members are abusing Jews regularly and citing antizionism when called out. The leader is a racist with a career long history of defending blood libelers, holocaust deniers and career antisemites.

Think that post above about the MP but several thousand times over.
Cornyn is not racist. Your just making yourself look a fool.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
I'm absolutely entitled as long as it's done before Brexit, but the final paperwork has not been sent to me despite applying. I'm thinking the slow wheels of bureaucracy may scupper me in the end. Had I actually foreseen the utter lunacy if the last couple of years I would have done this a long time ago.

It is what it is

If you're claiming birthright citizenship because of your parents or grandparents as I intend to do, it doesn't matter if the UK is still inside the EU. If you're claiming it via residence in Ireland though, well, I dunno. I'd hope that the Irish govt would still be happy to accept anyone currently living there.

The mods have stepping on on this already, but this deserves a response:

No it isn't, you just don't understand the self-hating Jew slur. Self hating Jew is a 'race traitor's trope. Jews can be racist to other Jews, and one of the more common ways this has manifested is the self hating Jew trope. I don't think bower is a self hating Jew, I think he's a Jew who said a racist comment to another Jew.
You think you're being subtle here but you're not. 'Self hating Jew' absolutely does have a history of being used between Jewish people making accusations of anti-semitism. Funnily enough, it gained a lot of prominence in the 20th century with the rise of Zionism, mostly being used by Zionists against anti-Zionist jews, which is exactly the circumstance in which Bower was deploying it.

By equating anti-semitism and anti-zionism, you are absolutely accusing anti-zionist jews of being racist against themselves. It's absurd and dishonest.
Labour members are abusing Jews regularly and citing antizionism when called out. The leader is a racist with a career long history of defending blood libelers, holocaust deniers and career antisemites.

Think that post above about the MP but several thousand times over.
You are a liar.

I would just like to finish by pointing out that on the one hand I can get an Irish passport due to my Irish ancestry, which is fair enough. Anyone who has or had Irish parents or grandparents is free to get an Irish passport. On the other hand, due to a quirk in my ancestry, I am also able to get an Israeli passport when other people who's parents and grandparents actually lived in that area cannot. That is morally indefensible, and categorically wrong. It is not anti-semitic to point that out and hold that position.
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,210
South East Asia
I'm surprised he even came back for seconds. Getafe got banned for pulling the same shit in countless Israel/Palestine threads a few months ago, and his "I've worked with Palestinians" shtick is as tired as the black friend defense.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,187
Hull, UK
Just fucking great. We're gonna hard Brexit and get another decade of Tory rule now.

Things are looking pretty good