8 Labour MP's quit party in protest of Leadership, Brexit and anti-semitism (update: 3 Conservative MPs quit to join Independent Group)

Tzarscream · Feb 20, 2019

Acorn said:
Consistent on one thing, that is moot in a month. Yay.

We still have no idea what's going to happen come the end of March..

This issue (Brexit) always needed cross party collaboration to actually implement, what is it? The biggest issue the commons have faced since WW2. The Independent Group seem to be interested in cross party collaboration.

Ichthyosaurus · Feb 20, 2019

IpKaiFung said:
There is only Stalin, Centrist or Hitler. There is no nuance.

I'm fairly sure socdems are considered Far Left, it's a broad umbrella. That's the nuance.

IpKaiFung · Feb 20, 2019

there's never going to be a party that will bring everyone together, especially under FPTP

The issue is that under FPTP the "winner" usually has about 35%-40% of the votes and that gives them all of the power, and the remaining 60%-65% who didn't vote for this government are left un-engaged with the process.

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

Mr.Fletcher said:
Oh no, I agree with you - which is why I went on to say it's too early to tell what this group represents or what ideas they have.

The truth is in the pudding after all.

But we're living in a time where the Conservatives are hopelessly split and veering further right, where the Lib Dem's are all but a spent force and Labour...

... well, we've got MPs resigning, a deputy leader saying they don't recognise parts of the party anymore, accusations of anti-semitism and a 'divisive' leader to put it politely.

Something needs to change. We need a party that brings us all together. Though of course you're never going to satisfy everyone.

Blair won majorities from essentially a centre left position, Cameron won a majority from essentially a centre right position.

That kind of (credible) option doesn't really exist for people at the moment.

Austerity and the knock on effects was not center anything.

Voters have rejected Centrists here and abroad. That's the whole reason the left got powerful, you couldn't even win elections to stop Tories anymore.

We need big changes the center offers none, the right are cunts but they offer change even if it's worse.

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
I'm fairly sure socdems are considered Far Left, it's a broad umbrella. That's the nuance.

What on earth, social democratic is center left. Fucking far left is literal Communists.

IpKaiFung · Feb 20, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
I'm fairly sure socdems are considered Far Left

No they are not. The SWP or an actual communist party would be far left.

PJV3 · Feb 20, 2019

Mr.Fletcher said:
Oh no, I agree with you - which is why I went on to say it's too early to tell what this group represents or what ideas they have.

The truth is in the pudding after all.

But we're living in a time where the Conservatives are hopelessly split and veering further right, where the Lib Dem's are all but a spent force and Labour...

... well, we've got MPs resigning, a deputy leader saying they don't recognise parts of the party anymore, accusations of anti-semitism and a 'divisive' leader to put it politely.

Something needs to change. We need a party that brings us all together. Though of course you're never going to satisfy everyone.

Blair won majorities from essentially a centre left position, Cameron won a majority from essentially a centre right position.

That kind of (credible) option doesn't really exist for people at the moment.

I meant ideas or the solutions to the problems in the country they have said up to now as MPs , I know you weren't giving the independent group your blessing.

That's why I don't think they're even worth watching beyond the fireworks.

Deleted member 78 · Feb 20, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
I'm fairly sure socdems are considered Far Left, it's a broad umbrella. That's the nuance.

lmao

Ichthyosaurus · Feb 20, 2019

Acorn said:
What on earth, social democratic is center left.

Nope.

Fucking far left is literal Communists.

They're the obvious ones, not the whole Far Left.

Deleted member 888 · Feb 20, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
I'm fairly sure socdems are considered Far Left, it's a broad umbrella. That's the nuance.

In a country with free education/free healthcare something that (some of) our American brothers and sisters race to call communism.

Is Scotland a communist country? Is Scotland far-left?

It never ceases to amaze me how ridiculously tuned some people's political compass is. While there can be a little wiggle-room for interpretation in politics, the overuse of far-X in the current Era is fucking tiresome.

Deleted member 78 · Feb 20, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Nope.

They're the obvious ones, not the whole Far Left.

No no. Communists are "far far far left". Anarchists are "even farther than far far far left".

IpKaiFung · Feb 20, 2019

Are you from the other side of the Atlantic by any chance?

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Nope.

They're the obvious ones, not the whole Far Left.

Okay, you talk nonsense. Social democrats are the most bland of lefty's .

PJV3 · Feb 20, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Nope.

They're the obvious ones, not the whole Far Left.

Are you thinking of socialists, social democracy is pretty standard fare?

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

PJV3 said:
Are you thinking of socialists, social democracy is pretty standard fare?

Even socialist is just left wing not far left. He's either right wing or fucking with me.

Ichthyosaurus · Feb 20, 2019

IpKaiFung said:
Are you from the other side of the Atlantic by any chance?

Yeah, but from what I can tell the ideologies on the left are very similar on its axis.

Acorn said:
Even socialist is just left wing not far left. He's either right wing or fucking with me.

Socialists are not just left wing anywhere in the West. Are you kidding? lol

I'm not right wing and I'm not fucking with you, either. I see leftists in the UK are like the ones in America who assume the left occupies a tiny, tiny portion of the left political spectrum, while simultaneously staying away from the centre (which is occupied by centrists).

Corbyn definitely is not the average left person in the UK, or a centre anything.

Deleted member 888 · Feb 20, 2019

If you're going to be claiming something is far-left, you better be bringing those receipts of authoritarianism/totalitarianism and/or a use of force/violence.

Deleted member 78 · Feb 20, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Yeah, but from what I can tell the ideologies on the left are very similar on its axis.

lol?

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Yeah, but from what I can tell the ideologies on the left are very similar on its axis.

Lol no everywhere other than America has different ideas on the scale in the West.

Mr.Fletcher · Feb 20, 2019

Acorn said:
Austerity and the knock on effects was not center anything.

Voters have rejected Centrists here and abroad. That's the whole reason the left got powerful, you couldn't even win elections to stop Tories anymore.

We need big changes the center offers none, the right are cunts but they offer change even if it's worse.

I totally respect what you're saying and the centre has taken a beating. But I do believe, with new ideas, it can be a force again.

I don't have the answers but I hope we're not trapped in a political landscape of extremes forever.

Sorry RustyNails - quoted you accidently!

PJV3 said:
I meant ideas or the solutions to the problems in the country they have said up to now as MPs , I know you weren't giving the independent group your blessing.

That's why I don't think they're even worth watching beyond the fireworks.

I agree with you. Ideas, solutions, policy, etc. are needed before anyone gets excited. But it's got to start somewhere.

Maybe it's a flash in the pan, but I do hope something comes of it.

PJV3 · Feb 20, 2019

Acorn said:
Even socialist is just left wing not far left. He's either right wing or fucking with me.

Lol,

Socialist is a wide term that does include the hardcore, I'm just trying to offer solutions.

Garjon · Feb 20, 2019

Tzarscream said:
We still have no idea what's going to happen come the end of March.

Well we're certainly not staying at this point because there is neither the public support nor Parliamentary support to do so. Brexit is happening and the fact that this group has not even mentioned post-Brexit UK in any speech, press release etc is actually quite worrying.

Everybody's in denial and that is the worst thing about it all

IpKaiFung · Feb 20, 2019

Ichthyosaurus said:
Yeah

Ichthyosaurus said:
but from what I can tell the ideologies on the left are very similar on its axis.

Not at all, theres are very big differences between a Socialist, a Social Democrat and a Communist

meadowdrone · Feb 20, 2019

Dopus said:
Corbyn is a far-left terrorist sympathising anti-Semitic professional Marxist agitator working for Putin

Jeremy Corbyn, why have you not answered the calls to respond to accusations of being a far-left terrorist sympathising anti-Semitic professional Marxist agitator working for Putin? Your handling of far-left terrorist sympathising anti-Semitic professional Marxist agitation within your party, or should I say LACK OF handling of far-left terrorist sympathising anti-Semitic professional Marxist agitation within your party, is a disgrace

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

Audioboxer said:
If you're going to be claiming something is far-left, you better be bringing those receipts of authoritarianism/totalitarianism and/or a use of force/violence.

Swedes must get mad with that cold.

Tygre · Feb 20, 2019

The media are desperate to accommodate the narrative that there is a "gap in the centre" of British Politics because after 30 years of cozy Thatcherite/Blairite consensus they are incapable of dealing with genuine arguments from the Left.

It's far easier to argue about what level of Austerity is correct than to countenance the idea that Austerity was a mistake, let alone acknowledge that the implementation of Austerity led to 10s of thousands of avoidable deaths.

Deleted member 78 · Feb 20, 2019

meadowdrone said:
Jeremy Corbyn, why have you not answered the calls to respond to accusations of being a far-left terrorist sympathising anti-Semitic professional Marxist agitator working for Putin? Your handling of far-left terrorist sympathising anti-Semitic professional Marxist agitation within your party, or should I say LACK OF handling of far-left terrorist sympathising anti-Semitic professional Marxist agitation within your party, is a disgrace

He's a naughty boy

Chuka Umunna save us from this nightmare!

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

PJV3 said:
Lol,

Socialist is a wide term that does include the hardcore, I'm just trying to offer solutions.

Dunno socialists want to change the system, Communists want to destroy it and social democrats want to fill in the gaps of the system.

mclem · Feb 20, 2019

Audioboxer said:
In a country with free education/free healthcare something that (some of) our American brothers and sisters race to call communism.

Is Scotland a communist country? Is Scotland far-left?

It never ceases to amaze me how ridiculously tuned some people's political compass is. While there can be a little wiggle-room for interpretation in politics, the overuse of far-X in the current Era is fucking tiresome.

The SNP...

Are the Forfar Left

Okay, so currently Forfar has a Scottish Conservative politician, but LET ME HAVE THIS PUN.

Rinse Bassfunk · Feb 20, 2019

Tzarscream said:
We still have no idea what's going to happen come the end of March..

This issue (Brexit) always needed cross party collaboration to actually implement, what is it? The biggest issue the commons have faced since WW2. The Independent Group seem to be interested in cross party collaboration.

The IG are interested in self preservation above all else, they are so not for collaboration that they left their party rather than actually collaborate

Ichthyosaurus said:
I'm fairly sure socdems are considered Far Left, it's a broad umbrella. That's the nuance.

Lol, centre-left more like it. If socdems are far left then what the hell are tories lol, extreme far right?

Blent · Feb 20, 2019

Do we think the Momentum/Corbyn supporting element of Labour are most loyal to left-wing policies or to Corbyn himself?

Uzzy · Feb 20, 2019

Mr.Fletcher said:
I totally respect what you're saying and the centre has taken a beating. But I do believe, with new ideas, it can be a force again.

I don't have the answers but I hope we're not trapped in a political landscape of extremes forever.

I agree with you. Ideas, solutions, policy, etc. are needed before anyone gets excited. But it's got to start somewhere.

Maybe it's a flash in the pan, but I do hope something comes of it.

If they manage to create a coherent plan of action for the UK, then that'll be something to read and consider. But there's not much so far beyond complaints about what Labour and the Tories are doing. It's possible they'll get the time to come up with a plan, but this Parliament could collapse within weeks and they'll be facing a General Election.

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

Juicy Bob said:
Do we think the Momentum/Corbyn supporting element of Labour are most loyal to left-wing policies or to Corbyn himself?

Once Corbyn is gone the left is dead again. There's a reason this is the first lefty in my lifetime.

Gernau Morat Gurgeh · Feb 20, 2019

meadowdrone said:
Jeremy Corbyn, why have you not answered the calls to respond to accusations of being a far-left terrorist sympathising anti-Semitic professional Marxist agitator working for Putin? Your handling of far-left terrorist sympathising anti-Semitic professional Marxist agitation within your party, or should I say LACK OF handling of far-left terrorist sympathising anti-Semitic professional Marxist agitation within your party, is a disgrace

Genuine lol

travisbickle · Feb 20, 2019

I just assume anyone who says "far left" about uk Labour owns at least two houses and a 6 figure salary and they physically shudder and scream "commie" at the idea of paying full council tax on their second home.

WhateverItTakes · Feb 20, 2019

The state of play is way more interesting now there's some Tory defectors. If they have the right strategy this group might go places.

My hope beyond hopes is that whatever party they'd form would take the place of the conservatives but that's probably far fetched. Definitely feels like our next government (whenever that is) will be a coalition now.

PJV3 · Feb 20, 2019

Acorn said:
Once Corbyn is gone the left is dead again. There's a reason this is the first lefty in my lifetime.

I'm not sure, I'm hoping for something similar minus all the baggage, and a bit of political nouse. It's hard to predict in all this chaos but a load of people like Chuka getting obliterated in an election might help.

Deleted member 888 · Feb 20, 2019

mclem said:
The SNP...

Are the Forfar Left

Okay, so currently Forfar has a Scottish Conservative politician, but LET ME HAVE THIS PUN.

lol, that's a good pun

Of course, the SNP are further left than some parties, but "further left" doesn't necessarily mean far left. It means... further left from whatever your starting point is. If it's the Tories, then yes, the SNP are further left. If it's some more centrist parties in Europe, or heck, even the Democrats in America, then yes, the SNP is further left. But as I said that doesn't necessarily make the SNP far-left.

If it's Labour, then ideologically the parties are pretty similar, centre-left in their roots. What distinguishes them at times is how they act on individual votes/issues, where a party can fluctuate.

Because a party is a broad spectrum of people, but obviously you hope whoever runs to be part of a party has enough in common with the parties general identity and goals. The Labour internal rifts always bring that into question, whereas while the SNP is a smaller party most of the MPs are ideologically locked in support of the same goals nearly all of the time.

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

PJV3 said:
I'm not sure, I'm hoping for something similar minus all the baggage, and a bit of political nouse. It's hard to predict in all this chaos but a load of people like Chuka getting obliterated in an election might help.

There will always be some baggage, the press will find and weaponise anything they can, nobody has lived the life of the angel. Especially in the left when you're a student lol

Edit also it's historically crazy that the left is this united, won't take much for it to devolve into arguments and splinters

Vault · Feb 20, 2019

if people think Labours policies are far left then this country is completely fucked

Acorn · Feb 20, 2019

Vault said:
if people think Labours policies are far left then this country is completely fucked

It's what the media has been telling them, so I don't really blame those that don't care about politics for thinking that.

Rinse Bassfunk · Feb 20, 2019

Vault said:
if people think Labours policies are far left then this country is completely fucked

Aren't we?

Simon21 · Feb 20, 2019

travisbickle said:
I just assume anyone who says "far left" about uk Labour owns at least two houses and a 6 figure salary and they physically shudder and scream "commie" at the idea of paying full council tax on their second home.

If that's genuinely what you think then you need to get out and meet more working class people.

Frodo · Feb 20, 2019

SMD · Feb 20, 2019

Vault said:
if people think Labours policies are far left then this country is completely fucked

This country is completely fucked

Deleted member 3196 · Feb 20, 2019

Acorn said:
It's what the media has been telling them, so I don't really blame those that don't care about politics for thinking that.

It's ironic, they brand Labour policies "far left", yet poll after poll after poll shows huge public support for Corbyn's agenda.

Sounds like they're closer to the centre than the media likes to admit.

Gernau Morat Gurgeh · Feb 20, 2019

Frodo said:

May and Corbyn are in a sort of murder suicide pact.

Deleted member 888 · Feb 20, 2019

Frodo said:

PJV3 · Feb 20, 2019

SMD said:
This country is completely fucked

Should be the name of a new political party, I think I'd vote for it.

Rinse Bassfunk · Feb 20, 2019

Simon21 said:
If that's genuinely what you think then you need to get out and meet more working class people.

Then we are truly lost to the bs peddled by the papers they are reading.

8 Labour MP's quit party in protest of Leadership, Brexit and anti-semitism (update: 3 Conservative MPs quit to join Independent Group)

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