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9/11 has a totally different meaning if you're Chilean. Remembering the U.S backed coup.

OP
OP
Rushersauce

Rushersauce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,653
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
Fuck off.
 

honestrade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
262
as I said on another thread - we never had an equivalent to the Nuremberg Trials nor "denazification". We did (and do) have criminal cases against certain military members and agents that include consecutive life sentences... but those are few. Probably the highest member of the whole bloody organization to be indicted was Manuel Contreras, who was the director of the Intelligence Agency (the main repressive organization in the country during those times). Members of the Junta died before anything happened to them. Hell, Pinochet died in his fucking home, without having answered for ANYTHING he did. And no remorse, of course.

And the thing is... those processes are, essentially, focused on the military part of the Dictatorship. But there's a whooooole level of civilian collaborators that NEVER got ANYTHING resembling a sentence. Newspaper owners, CEOs, even designated (by the Junta!) mayors from the era - still allowed to be free citizens. Some of them are actual politicians still, to this very day. Still lurking there, flaunting their fascism, with no punishment because "FREEZE PEACH!!!11"

Our transition to democracy was a frail one, a very defective one, tbh. Many of the institutions propped up by the Dictatorship still exist, mostly unmodified.

It's an open wound.
Yeah I honestly don’t know enough about it and am not Chilean so didn’t live it but have heard people say things like individuals couldn’t own property prior to Pinochet and he did a lot to modernize infrastructure.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,806
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
So first of all, what the actual fuck?
There are some things you just don't defend, on any level, at all. This is one of those things.

Also, ever wondered how and why exactly Latin America is not in the development stage it should be (or as you call it "clusterfuck")?
Spoiler: the US is responsible for a whole lot of it.

To suggest that countries in Latin America could have not achieved economic development without a military coup and a brutal dictatorship that butchered their own people is fucking gross, and historically ignorant.
 

Lant_War

The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
9,096
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
It's impressive how every country of Latin America has people like you and it's so easy to spot them.
 

infinite

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,223
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
You’re fucking bugging my dude. If you don’t think the US is responsible for the conditions in Latin America you’re a fucking idiot
 

Helio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,589
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
What a ghoulish thing to say. Thousands of people died because of the coup and you go and say this bullshit
 

Altazor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,976
Chile
Yeah I honestly don’t know enough about it and am not Chilean so didn’t live it but have heard people say things like individuals couldn’t own property prior to Pinochet and he did a lot to modernize infrastructure.
the first thing is bottom of the barrel "red scare" stuff (considering we were a highly unequal country before the coup... and we still are) and the infrastructure thing is, well... no amount of shiny, new, infrastructure is worth the corpses of thousands who were summarily executed for thinking differently, or the thousands who were forced to go into exile overnight leaving family and friends and a whole life behind, and so on.

EDIT: I mean, literally, the "infrastructure" excuse is commonly used to downplay the horrors the Dictatorship forced upon their victims. We're talking about torture, humiliation, degradation, mutilation, outright depravity. Those weren't isolated incidents from "lone wolves" or "disobedient, rowdy soldiers" - it was a highly effective official machine designed and perfected to keep the populace under their thumbs, living in constant fear.
 
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Adnor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,589
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
Shut up.
 

Squid Bunny

Member
Jun 11, 2018
1,472
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
Oh boy oh boy oh boy where to even BEGIN to unpack this.


One of the saddest stories regarding the 11/9 coup is how the Estadio Nacional was coopted into a hub for torture and murder.
 

Crayolan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,889
Wow I had no idea this was a thing. Unfortunately none of this gets taught in American schools. Aside from our near-genocide of Native Americans, American-led atrocities are for the most part shied away from in history classes here.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,806
Oct 29, 2017
687
Florida
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
lmao fuck off

Also yeah to parrot what other people have said, this shit isn't taught at all in American schools or if it is, it's incredibly glossed over. Hell I remember in world history class in 10th grade, we didn't even get past World War II and in American history class in 11th grade, we started at Reconstruction and by January (school year down here starts in August), we were still in the 19th century.
 
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OP
Rushersauce

Rushersauce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,653
I'm going to a bar rn, and I stumbled upon this (it's been there for years). Just so you know, we still remember

 

emag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,151
Started reading this and realized I sort of know the names Allende and Pinochet. I think I heard part of this history on a Planet Money episode and it was informative but I feel I've forgotten so much that it said. I remember just a small somewhat random detail that a famous, well liked musician was attacked and killed in the street.

If anyone remembers or knows that episode, please let me know. I'd like to re-listen to it
The Chicago Boys Parts I & II (905, 906)

It is largely about the economic reforms implemented under Pinochet by economists from Chicago, but they do discuss the atrocities carried out during the coup and the following regime.
 

NHarmonic.

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,971
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
Educate yourself please. You’re coming off as ignorant as fuck.

There were US incited coups everywhere in LATAM, by your logic every country here should be like Chile and isn’t the case at all.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,532
yeah, Ochs and Pete Seeger and Arlo Guthrie were all aware of Victor, his talent and his legacy. I think Sprinsgteen was a fan, too?
Yes. Phil traveled to Chile and was friend with Jara. He was inspired by the election of Allende after Ochs was disillusioned and failed to bring about change with his music in the United States.

This is a beautiful song by Ochs about the way society destroys and savors in the death and destruction of their idols. This song was actually written about John Kennedy. Phil played it for Bobby Kennedy who cried. Months later Robert Kennedy was dead.


I have actually been encouraged people are mentioning on the political stage how the United States has been responsible for horribly bloody massacres via the CIA. More people should know what America did to South America.
 

Simon Belmont

Member
Oct 25, 2017
866
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
Is this the actual worst case of “both sides” in history?
 

Altazor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,976
Chile
Yes. Phil traveled to Chile and was friend with Jara. He was inspired by the election of Allende after Ochs was disillusioned and failed to bring about change with his music in the United States.

This is a beautiful song by Ochs about the way society destroys and savors in the death and destruction of their idols. This song was actually written about John Kennedy. Phil played it for Bobby Kennedy who cried. Months later Robert Kennedy was dead.


I have actually been encouraged people are mentioning on the political stage how the United States has been responsible for horribly bloody massacres via the CIA. More people should know what America did to South America.
thank you for sharing this, it's beautiful (and sad)

EDIT:

Is this the actual worst case of “both sides” in history?
welcome to literally every september in Chile. It's a common "argument". Tiresome and ridiculous, but... yeah, still prevalent.
 

Elrid

Member
Oct 28, 2017
535
Excellent (and infuriating) movie on the subject:


Though featuring a few Hollywood stars, the film places the blame exactly where it was earned.

Costa Gavras's earlier film, State of Siege, also critiques the US's insidious sabotage of Democracy in South American countries.
Everyone should watch this movie. Especially if you are from the US.
 
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fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,493
Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
what? Can you name most terrible things Allende did so that you can compare it with Pinochet?
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,401
Places
Had no idea we were stirring up shit down there. I've only heard the numerous egregious things the Spaniards did, but thanks for spreading awareness.
 
Oct 28, 2017
92
Kissinger was involved in the minute details of this murderous terrorist attack. Scum of the earth. Should have been jailed long ago for crimes against humanity
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,180
Kissinger was involved in the minute details of this murderous terrorist attack. Scum of the earth. Should have been jailed long ago for crimes against humanity
His crimes are legion, and the bodycount of broken bodies you can attribute to him, American and otherwise, is basically incalculable and one we'll never truly figure out. All of those lives lost, and they're just numbers in a report, if they're even lucky.

And that fucker is still alive. And still being rewarded by Democrats and Republicans alike for his "stellar" and longtime service to the country.

Despicable.
 

fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,493
His crimes are legion, and the bodycount of broken bodies you can attribute to him, American and otherwise, is basically incalculable and one we'll never truly figure out. All of those lives lost, and they're just numbers in a report, if they're even lucky.

And that fucker is still alive. And still being rewarded by Democrats and Republicans alike for his "stellar" and longtime service to the country.

Despicable.
but then why was Hillary Clinton close to him? I just read that looking at his wikipedia page.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,806
His crimes are legion, and the bodycount of broken bodies you can attribute to him, American and otherwise, is basically incalculable and one we'll never truly figure out. All of those lives lost, and they're just numbers in a report, if they're even lucky.

And that fucker is still alive. And still being rewarded by Democrats and Republicans alike for his "stellar" and longtime service to the country.

Despicable.
And he won the Noble Peace Prize, which is a totally respectable award and not a fucking joke.

but then why was Hillary Clinton close to him? I just read that looking at his wikipedia page.
Latin-America-regime-change-fun-adventure-time is sadly a bipartisan project.
JFK did the 1964 Brazilian coup detat, and he was pretty damn hands-on involved with that shit.
 

Nome

Designer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,266
NYC
I'm actually curious, does this stuff (not only South America) get taught at American schools?
No, nothing.

Everything is taught within the context of how it affects Americans. American atrocities on non-Americans is not taught at all, save for My Lai (Vietnam), but only in the context of how it affected domestic attitudes towards the war.

There’s only standard coverage of American atrocities towards Americans (e.g. Trail of Tears, Tuskegee Experiment, slavery, etc) but it’s not terribly extensive and confined to chapters in wider courses in American history. You’d have to take specialized college courses or do your own research to find out about anything else.
 

Altazor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,976
Chile
To the north american peeps on ERA who are willing to learn about it and have time to spare - there's a 4+ hour documentary trilogy called "La Batalla de Chile" (The Battle of Chile) by Chilean filmmaker Patricio Guzmán, that chronicles the period leading up to the coup and the events of the coup itself. Filmed back in 1972 and 1973, black and white. Not released in Chile until 1997.

It's on youtube. English subtitles. Dunno if it's geo-locked, though, you could try and see if you can watch it without issues.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

It's a time sink, yes. But it's eye-opening if you literally don't know anything about it. You'll see testimonies from people back then, common folk and politicians. It's harrowing as fuck, but also invaluable.
 

Adnor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,589
Yeah it's nice to see other chileans online, thanks for the thread Rushersauce :)
 

Altazor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,976
Chile
Here's a song composed by Victor Jara, and performed by the band Inti-Illimani (who were close associated of Victor). Used by our Public Television back in the day as the official song of the station... that nice doggo that features in that video was the official mascot of the station, too!

 

GatsGatsby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
955
West Columbia, SC
To the north american peeps on ERA who are willing to learn about it and have time to spare - there's a 4+ hour documentary trilogy called "La Batalla de Chile" (The Battle of Chile) by Chilean filmmaker Patricio Guzmán, that chronicles the period leading up to the coup and the events of the coup itself. Filmed back in 1972 and 1973, black and white. Not released in Chile until 1997.

It's on youtube. English subtitles. Dunno if it's geo-locked, though, you could try and see if you can watch it without issues.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

It's a time sink, yes. But it's eye-opening if you literally don't know anything about it. You'll see testimonies from people back then, common folk and politicians. It's harrowing as fuck, but also invaluable.
Awesome will definitely devote some time to watch this. I had no knowledge of this event at all actually I dont know much about how bad the US has fucked over South America. History class here especially in the south are beyond basic. All I really remember them covering is ancient civilizations, some native american history, founding of the colonies, revolutionary war, civil war, industrial revolution and some of the civil rights movement. After that its like nothing happened. Also depending on what color your history teachers skin is dictates what verison of events you're going to get. White teachers tend to sugarcoat atrocities they condemn them but also just go well it was a long time ago. Teachers of color go into detail they want you to know why these things happen and why they shouldnt happen again.
 

Altazor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,976
Chile
Awesome will definitely devote some time to watch this. I had no knowledge of this event at all actually I dont know much about how bad the US has fucked over South America. History class here especially in the south are beyond basic. All I really remember them covering is ancient civilizations, some native american history, founding of the colonies, revolutionary war, civil war, industrial revolution and some of the civil rights movement. After that its like nothing happened. Also depending on what color your history teachers skin is dictates what verison of events you're going to get. White teachers tend to sugarcoat atrocities they condemn them but also just go well it was a long time ago. Teachers of color go into detail they want you to know why these things happen and why they shouldnt happen again.
I totally understand where you're coming from. It's going to be a bit heady, in any case, especially if we consider you're essentially devoting 4-5 hours of your time to watch something from a distant country that happened more than 45 years ago.

But it captures perfectly those moments - the plight of the workers and housewives and farmers who dreamed of a better country, the division between classes, the outright hostility between them, the differences in vision and tension between Allende and the more radical left wing movements that weren't part of his government, the dirty tactics of the right-wing, the ugliness of Allende's final months in charge... it's a lot. But again, it's harrowing, it's powerful, it's a monumental piece of filmmaking.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
1,885
Can anyone tell me why any Chilean would look back on the dictatorship and say it wasn't that bad?

I could understand people from the military or someone who's too young to have experienced it but those old enough to remember, why?
 

Kismet

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
1,432
I never knew about this. I'm going to read more.

Would Chile rather be a clustefuck like the rest of LATAM? Chile being the only kinda development country of the region doesn't happen without this date. This isn't praise to Pinochet. Just stating a fact. I don't get the rose tinted glasses view for Allende both were scum, you can and should hate and reject both.
You sound like my old friend who said that all the rich rappers should be thankful of slavery, otherwise they would've remained in Afrika.
Disgusting.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,385
Can anyone tell me why any Chilean would look back on the dictatorship and say it wasn't that bad?

I could understand people from the military or someone who's too young to have experienced it but those old enough to remember, why?
Because dictatorships always have supporters who prioritise their own safety and possessions over the lives of other people. They are fine with murder and torture against people they don’t like. There isn’t a murderous regime on the planet that doesn’t have some civilian supporters somewhere.
 

Jeb

Avenger
Mar 14, 2018
1,017
I get filled with disgust when people act that the US’s evil starts with Trump and the GOP.

The country’s history is filled with atrocities and people act like it was always the good guy minus “the Trump part”
 

Richter1887

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,387
Can anyone tell me why any Chilean would look back on the dictatorship and say it wasn't that bad?

I could understand people from the military or someone who's too young to have experienced it but those old enough to remember, why?
Sometimes a dictatorship is better than a "democracy" like what happened with Iraq for example.
Think about it, Saddam was a monster who did a lot of horrible things to innocents but the overall life was better for most people living in Iraq while he was in power because he kept order and control.

Democracy needs order to work and Iraq could have worked if it wasn't for the incompetence of the people incharge of restoring order after Saddam.