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entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,176
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/08/...-relief.html&eventName=Watching-article-click

I swear I've heard people doing this before, not for emergency care, but combining two of the most common OTC pain relief drugs doesn't sound uncommon as a home remedy of sorts. It's almost the Dragon Quest alchemy pot lol. Looks like it's rather effective in emergency room care.

With the opiate crisis being so widespread it's nice to that alternatives are developing.

Disclaimer: Do not try this, kids.

A combination of Tylenol and Advil worked just as well as opioids for relief of pain in the emergency room, a randomized trial has found.

Researchers studied 416 men and women who arrived in the E.R. with moderate to severe pain in their arms or legs from sprains, strains, fractures or other injuries. They randomly assigned them to an oral dose of acetaminophen (Tylenol) with either ibuprofen (Advil) or the opioids oxycodone, hydrocodone or codeine. Two hours later, they questioned them using an 11-point pain scale.

The average score was 8.7 before taking medicine. That score decreased 4.3 points with ibuprofen and Tylenol, 4.4 with oxycodone and Tylenol, 3.5 with hydrocodone and Tylenol, and 3.9 with codeine and Tylenol. In other words, there was no significant difference, either statistically or clinically, among any of the four regimens. The study is in JAMA.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,536
Placebo effect?

If I go in for a fracture I will hit you if you try to give me ibuprofen and tylenol. Dope me up.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,704
Brazil
And for me alone they do nothing. Not a single advil, not a lonely tylenol, not a banana baton
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,050
combining tylenol and ibuprofen isn't a big deal, as long as you aren't taking large doses of either. If you have a headache or whatever that persists after a couple of ibuprofen, you aren't really risking anything by then taking a tylenol or two. The tylenol itself is what you have to watch due to its potential for liver damage. It's never a good idea to take the maximum dose of tylenol and then double/triple it.

Source: people I know in the medical field who are probably not trying to kill me.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,409
My mom had some tylenol with codeine we got in the States on a trip. I took two for a brutal hangover (like I would with advil or normal tylenol) and that shit kicked my ass. I could immediately tell the difference.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,050
My mom had some tylenol with codeine we got in the States on a trip. I took two for a brutal hangover (like I would with advil or normal tylenol) and that shit kicked my ass. I could immediately tell the difference.

Tylenol for hangover is generally not a great idea due to how your liver is already taxed. I switched to Ibuprofen years ago for that reason.
 

Nell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
449
Interesting! The few times I took codiene it never really helped with the pain, I just felt high.

I combine both ibuprofen and acetaminophen on occasion
it's also much safer to alternate taking the two instead of taking one type of pain med all day.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,250
As someone with chronic pain... I don't believe this at all.

What exactly where the doses?

Participants (104 per each combination analgesic group) received 400 mg of ibuprofen and 1000 mg of acetaminophen; 5 mg of oxycodone and 325 mg of acetaminophen; 5 mg of hydrocodone and 300 mg of acetaminophen; or 30 mg of codeine and 300 mg of acetaminophen.

so the opioids are roughly 80x as effective. OK.
 

Wereroku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,252
My dentist has recommended this before instead of proscribing pain meds. The only downfall for this is that it will cause liver problems if you do it to long or to high of a dose.

As someone with chronic pain... I don't believe this at all.

What exactly where the doses?

so the opioids are roughly 80x as effective. OK.

To be fair the study wasn't about chronic pain treatment. It was for acute pain treatment. Yep smaller doses on the opioids but no risk of addiction on the others. Basically looking for compromises.
 

JeTmAn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,825
You don't want to be taking either one on a longterm basis anyway. My wife was taking round-the-clock ibuprofen and acetaminophen for years for chronic pain and only recently switched to an alternative treatment of CBD oil at a non-deductible cost of $250/month. At least it's not destroying her liver.
 

Amirai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
159
I read somewhere that even without using large doses this would be unwise to do for extended period of time because of the liver damage it would cause, but I don't know the accuracy of that claim. Really, anyone thinking of trying this should probably talk to a doctor about it first.
 

JetBlackPanda

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,505
Echo Base
Weird. Just this week I took Tylenol and ibuprofen together for the first time. I had a wisdom tooth extracted Monday and was given a RX for Norco. it worked great BTW. but I was only give 12 pills and did not want to take them all, I took both on and off for 2 days and to be honest the pain relief was almost the same but I did not have the floaty high from the Norco with the other stuff.

the difference to me is that both took the pain away but one (the norco) made me feel great.

to the posters below, I agree this is a good replacement for short term surgery pain relief etc not long term chronic pain.
 

Ponn

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,171
A lot of people thinks it's as simple as popping OTC to replace painkillers but with longterm medical issues like arthritis when you are taking ibuprofen or Tylenol, usually multiple times a day, you can be causing liver damage and stomach problems. Compared to taking just one lortab or whatever you may be taking.
 

Dozer1003

Member
Oct 26, 2017
42
Orlando, FL
As someone with chronic pain... I don't believe this at all.

What exactly where the doses?


so the opioids are roughly 80x as effective. OK.

Comparing mg amounts is pointless, that has nothing to do with strength.

This study is flawed because ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory, while Tylenol and all those opioids are analgesics. Combining an analgesic and anti-inflammatory it's probably what we're seeing here.
 

GSG

Member
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,051
When I had my wisdom teeth pulled, Tylenol worked better for me than the oxycodone pills that were prescribed to me(which stopped working and were useless after the first day).
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,076
Placebo effect?

If I go in for a fracture I will hit you if you try to give me ibuprofen and tylenol. Dope me up.

Ya, I really hope this doesn't swing pain treatment in the other direction. I've been in some serious pain before and they've refused to give me anything decent because they were afraid I was a junky.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,332
New York
Didn't do shit when I got my hip replacement. Needed the hardcore shit for a week. Tylenol wasn't cutting it. Was like water.


Weed works better. Put the shit in a pill and solve the opioid epidemic.
 

Juturna

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,834
Yeah my liver doesn't agree with Tylenol and my enzymes shoot sky high when I take it, so I'll stick with my roxicodone 5mg
 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,462
If I have to, I'd take two Tylenol rather than include Advil. I'm more irrationally paranoid about increasing the risk of stroke than risking liver damage.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,250
Comparing mg amounts is pointless, that has nothing to do with strength.

This study is flawed because ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory, while Tylenol and all those opioids are analgesics. Combining an analgesic and anti-inflammatory it's probably what we're seeing here.

Even ignoring the oxy dose they tripled the acetaminophen.

I mean sure ibuprofen can work up to a point but its nowhere near as effective as opioids when dealing with serious pain.
 

ChrisR

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,798
I'll believe it. I was in SERIOUS pain on Monday morning, so much so that I drove myself to the ER. Doctor said to take Tylenol + Motrin together as needed until I can get to another doctor to figure out wtf is wrong with me.

Of course this study is released AFTER that fact. An expensive lesson to learn for sure :(
 

Brandson

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,219
Was told of this trick by our family doctor several years ago. For headaches or fever, tylenol alone for me does nothing. Advil does slightly more than nothing. Together, they actually work. So yeah, for me, I can confirm that the combination works. You can take them together or stagger them provided you don't exceed each medication's respective dosage limits.
 

jb1234

Very low key
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,232
Yeah, it's not an uncommon treatment. The two drugs compliment each other.
 

Amirai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
159
Weed works better. Put the shit in a pill and solve the opioid epidemic.

As far as I know, they already have pills that remove the THC and leave only the pain relieving component, CBD, but they're still not as strong as opioids (and not covered by insurance). Regardless, they should be definitely used for appropriate cases then turn to opioids if they aren't sufficient.
 

Earendil

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
255
In addition to Tylenol being hard on your liver, Advil is hard on your stomach. So use both with caution (I say this as a chronic Advil user).
 

Emerson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
521
USA
Some people in here are talking about this like "well maybe, but not for chronic pain."

Straight up reality from a prescriber: the use of narcotics for non-cancer chronic pain is absolutely, 100% unsupported by evidence. The practice is bad medicine and is why we're in the situation we are. Every doctor who pays attention has read the studies showing this. Narcotics were intended for cancer related pain first, acute pain second. Their use for other forms of chronic pain only became widespread in the 90s when the drug manufacturers were pushing them on everyone and claiming they weren't addictive.

You know why cancer related chronic pain is considered the best use? Because there (generally) isn't a long term concern. The patients will either pass away or be cured before the long term effects of narcotics become a problem. This isn't true for back pain and other chronic conditions.

That the anti-opioid movement is now chipping away at the indications for acute pain is only because we already know using them for chronic pain is not a good solution. What a lot of us already knew, and the rest are now finding out, is that there are very few good indications for these drugs. It's not just addiction. In the long term they make people's pain and people's function worse. Opioid-induced hyperalgesia and central sensitization are a real thing. At bare minimum in the long term you get increasing dependence, increasing dose tolerance and decreasing effectiveness eventually leading to just as much pain as the patient started with despite taking enough narcotics to kill a large animal.
 

Sammex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,712
That's a great post Emerson. I helped run an NHS pain management programme a couple of months ago and you'e just summarised everything nicely.

Edit

Clarify for those of us not in the medical field lol?

Taking opioids can actually increase pain.

Then chronic pain patients become more sensitive to feeling pain and the brain interprets regular signals as painful, like turning the volume up loud.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,332
New York
Taking opioids can actually increase pain.

Then chronic pain patients become more sensitive to feeling pain and the brain interprets regular signals as painful, like turning the volume up loud.

Thank you. Hot damn. Yea my doc didn't mention that lmao. I was on pain meds before my hip surgery. Now I take Mobic but it's fucking my stomach up.
 
Last edited:

CMDBob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
105
Sheffield
I kinda thought everyone knew that paracetamol and ibuprofen worked pretty well together for some more painful pains. Especially as they work via different effects (paracetamol goes for the brain, and ibuprofen is a NSAID) so I dunno. . I was always told that by my GP that they worked well together at any rate.
 

Amirai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
159
Some people in here are talking about this like "well maybe, but not for chronic pain."

Straight up reality from a prescriber: the use of narcotics for non-cancer chronic pain is absolutely, 100% unsupported by evidence. The practice is bad medicine and is why we're in the situation we are. Every doctor who pays attention has read the studies showing this. Narcotics were intended for cancer related pain first, acute pain second. Their use for other forms of chronic pain only became widespread in the 90s when the drug manufacturers were pushing them on everyone and claiming they weren't addictive.

You know why cancer related chronic pain is considered the best use? Because there (generally) isn't a long term concern. The patients will either pass away or be cured before the long term effects of narcotics become a problem. This isn't true for back pain and other chronic conditions.

That the anti-opioid movement is now chipping away at the indications for acute pain is only because we already know using them for chronic pain is not a good solution. What a lot of us already knew, and the rest are now finding out, is that there are very few good indications for these drugs. It's not just addiction. In the long term they make people's pain and people's function worse. Opioid-induced hyperalgesia and central sensitization are a real thing. At bare minimum in the long term you get increasing dependence, increasing dose tolerance and decreasing effectiveness eventually leading to just as much pain as the patient started with despite taking enough narcotics to kill a large animal.

That's a great post Emerson. I helped run an NHS pain management programme a couple of months ago and you'e just summarised everything nicely.

Edit



Taking opioids can actually increase pain.

Then chronic pain patients become more sensitive to feeling pain and the brain interprets regular signals as painful, like turning the volume up loud.

Okay, this can't wait for me to write the reasons since I can't write quickly, but I just have to say no, that's not a good post at all and gets a lot of things wrong. I'll post my reasons as soon as I can write them.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,411
Hopefully one day we'll find a better solution to pain than opioids and shit that gives you strokes and destroys your stomach.
 

jb1234

Very low key
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,232
Some people in here are talking about this like "well maybe, but not for chronic pain."

Straight up reality from a prescriber: the use of narcotics for non-cancer chronic pain is absolutely, 100% unsupported by evidence. The practice is bad medicine and is why we're in the situation we are. Every doctor who pays attention has read the studies showing this. Narcotics were intended for cancer related pain first, acute pain second. Their use for other forms of chronic pain only became widespread in the 90s when the drug manufacturers were pushing them on everyone and claiming they weren't addictive.

You know why cancer related chronic pain is considered the best use? Because there (generally) isn't a long term concern. The patients will either pass away or be cured before the long term effects of narcotics become a problem. This isn't true for back pain and other chronic conditions.

That the anti-opioid movement is now chipping away at the indications for acute pain is only because we already know using them for chronic pain is not a good solution. What a lot of us already knew, and the rest are now finding out, is that there are very few good indications for these drugs. It's not just addiction. In the long term they make people's pain and people's function worse. Opioid-induced hyperalgesia and central sensitization are a real thing. At bare minimum in the long term you get increasing dependence, increasing dose tolerance and decreasing effectiveness eventually leading to just as much pain as the patient started with despite taking enough narcotics to kill a large animal.

There are no good solutions, correct. But people often don't have a choice. If their chronic pain is so severe that they can't function, opioids are often the only way to go, despite their risks. For my condition, I look at it as buying me time. Hopefully in the future, better and safer painkillers will be invented.
 

see5harp

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,435
My mom had some tylenol with codeine we got in the States on a trip. I took two for a brutal hangover (like I would with advil or normal tylenol) and that shit kicked my ass. I could immediately tell the difference.

My mom came back from Asia with a bunch of powdered codeine, which I had never seen. I guess they just add it to drinks. I tried to get some but my Mom wouldn't hook it up.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
There are no good solutions, correct. But people often don't have a choice. If their chronic pain is so severe that they can't function, opioids are often the only way to go, despite their risks. For my condition, I look at it as buying me time. Hopefully in the future, better and safer painkillers will be invented.
Its probably making your problem worse though. Opiods treat the surface level pain but don't treat any of the psychological factors, so you end up being in worse pain than you would be if you never took them in the first place. It's not an imperfect solution, it's just a different problem.
 

Amirai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
159
Emerson, your post aligns with the main narrative pushed by the media, so I understand why you'd believe it, but the reporting on the issue has been abysmal.
Some people in here are talking about this like "well maybe, but not for chronic pain."

Straight up reality from a prescriber: the use of narcotics for non-cancer chronic pain is absolutely, 100% unsupported by evidence.
This statement is a bit hard to parse. First, cancer is not the only condition that can put people in terrible pain. Far from it. Secondly, opioids absolutely do work for the pain of those conditions, and they can be taken safely, and the vast majority do.
The practice is bad medicine and is why we're in the situation we are.
Opioid prescriptions are not the main problem, in fact they only a very small part, only about 4.5%. The vast majority of opioid related deaths are the result of either people mixing opioids with other drugs, which you can't do safely in a lot of cases, or as a result of using illegal street versions which contain fentanyl which is a hundred times stronger than other opioids and 50 times stronger than heroin, or even carfentanyl which if I recall correctly is ten times stronger than that. Since the illegal versions aren't measured as strictly as the prescription ones, they're dangerous and easy to overdose on.
http://reason.com/archives/2016/05/18/opioid-epidemic-myths
Despite the decline in use, opioid-related deaths reported by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) continued to rise through 2014, when there were 29,467, a record number. An overwhelming majority of such deaths—more than nine out of 10, according to data from New York City—involve mixtures of opioids with other drugs rather than straightforward overdoses.
Opioid prescriptions are not actually dangerous to take long-term:
Opioid-related deaths are rare even for patients who take narcotics every day for years. The CDC cites "a recent study of patients aged 15–64 years receiving opioids for chronic noncancer pain" who were followed for up to 13 years. The researchers found that "one in 550 patients died from opioid-related overdose," which is a risk of less than 0.2 percent.
The vast majority taking opioid prescriptions are not abusing them:
A recent study by Castlight Health estimated that 4.5 percent of people who have received opioid prescriptions qualify as "abusers," and its definition, based on the amount prescribed and the number of prescribers, probably captures some legitimate patients as well.
Their use for other forms of chronic pain only became widespread in the 90s when the drug manufacturers were pushing them on everyone and claiming they weren't addictive.
The drug companies absolutely should not have tried to act like they had no risk of addiction at all, but now we're swinging back in the opposite direction and overreacting. They are not always addicting.
In the long term they make people's pain and people's function worse. Opioid-induced hyperalgesia and central sensitization are a real thing. At bare minimum in the long term you get increasing dependence, increasing dose tolerance and decreasing effectiveness eventually leading to just as much pain as the patient started with despite taking enough narcotics to kill a large animal.
Its probably making your problem worse though. Opiods treat the surface level pain but don't treat any of the psychological factors, so you end up being in worse pain than you would be if you never took them in the first place. It's not an imperfect solution, it's just a different problem.
It's not as real as it seems because of incorrect methodology. I suggest you read the criticism section on wikipedia about opioid-induced hyperalgesia. With proper methodology, it's not really a problem at all.
In examining the published studies on opioid-induced hyperalgesia (OIH), Reznikov et al criticize the methodologies employed on both humans and animals as being far-removed from the typical regimen and dosages of pain patients in the real world.[18] They also note that some OIH studies were performed on drug addicts in methadone rehabilitation programs, and that such results are very difficult to generalize and apply to medical patients in chronic pain. In contrast, a study of 224 chronic pain patients receiving 'commonly-used' doses of oral opioids, in more typical clinical scenarios, found that the opioid-treated patients actually experienced no difference in pain sensitivity when compared to patients on non-opioid treatments. The authors conclude that opioid-induced hyperalgesia may not be an issue of any significance for normal, medically-treated chronic pain patients at all.[18]
Even opioid tolerance isn't as much of a problem as people fear because you can simply rotate them.
Opioid-induced hyperalgesia has also been criticized as overdiagnosed among chronic pain patients, due to poor differential practice in distinguishing it from the much more common phenomenon of opioid tolerance.[19] The misdiagnosis of common opioid tolerance (OT) as opioid-induced hyperalgesia (OIH) can be problematic as the clinical actions suggested by each condition can be contrary to each other. Patients misdiagnosed with OIH may have their opioid dose mistakenly decreased (in the attempt to counter OIH) at times when it is actually appropriate for their dose to be increased or rotated (as a counter to opioid tolerance).[19]

The suggestion that chronic pain patients who are diagnosed as experiencing opioid-induced hyperalgesia ought to be completely withdrawn from opioid therapy has also been met with criticism. This is not only because of the uncertainties surrounding the diagnosis of OIH in the first place,[18] but because of the viability of rotating the patient between different opioid analgesics over time. Opioid rotation is considered a valid alternative to the reduction or cessation of opioid therapy,[20] and multiple studies demonstrate the rotation of opioids to be a safe and effective protocol.[21][22][23]
I personally have a family member who's been taking prescription opioids safely for years for a condition with no cure. She didn't get addicted. Doesn't even get high. Opioids absolutely can work, and safely, but because of the hysteria the media is whipping up about them, important details which reveal the real sources of the problem are ignored.

We're basically freaking out about a slowly dripping pipe (the small number of problem doctors) when there's a gushing pipe on the other side of the room (street drugs, lack of knowledge about the stuff you can't mix them with and the reasons why people are turning to drugs in the first place, like hopelessness).

The terrible reporting is causing people to overreact and recently caused an across-the-board reduction of pain meds. My family member only gets a fifth of what she got before for no good reason at all, as they already put patients through regular checks to make sure they aren't abusing them. It's like they decided to reduce the speed limit to 10 mph everywhere because some people speed and cause crashes. They're also not as easy to get as people think from almost all doctors, as they're generally paranoid about prescribing them and some pharmacies won't even fill prescriptions for them anymore.

The overreaction is causing real suffering to a ton of people who can't get adequate pain relief. People are killing themselves because they just can't take it anymore, which is obviously worse than the other risks, which are again far smaller than commonly believed. We need to get the word out that they absolutely can be taken safely. One opioid was even reformulated to make it resistant to abuse, so what's the point of clamping down on that too? It's also making the problem worse as pain patients who can't get relief turn to the illegal stuff like heroin.

In 2015, opioid deaths were above 33,000. Yet no one talks about the approximately 16,500 people who died in 2015 from NSAIDs, or the 400,000 who died from cigarettes in the US, and millions more around the world.

The opioid epidemic is absolutely a problem, but it's not prescriptions. We need to look at the true sources and address them, though I know that the systemic societal issues driving people to opioids in the first place are going to be very difficult to fix and keeping out the illegal drugs is impossible, but decriminalizing personal use to make it easier for people to get treatment for their addictions would be a great start.

TLDR: Prescription opioids are not the problem, illegal ones and the reasons people are turning to them to the first place are, and the overreaction is causing a lot of pain patients to suffer needlessly.
 
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DadsBoyfriend

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
163
My hip says they are full of shit. I just wish my ass backwards state of ky would legalize cannabis. Our dickhead Republican governor even supports it, but the Bible thumpers always holding up progress
 

jb1234

Very low key
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,232
Its probably making your problem worse though. Opiods treat the surface level pain but don't treat any of the psychological factors, so you end up being in worse pain than you would be if you never took them in the first place. It's not an imperfect solution, it's just a different problem.

We do what we have to do to survive. I don't like taking them but it's a better solution than suicide, which is the alternative when the pain is uncontrolled.
 

SchuckyDucky

Avenger
Nov 5, 2017
3,938
That's what I did when I got my wisdom teeth pulled and I was fine. Alternated between Tylenol and ibuprofen. Dentist insisted that I would need opioids, but I was fine without them.
 

DadsBoyfriend

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
163
Remember: don't do drugs unless they are synthetic versions of said drugs produced by corporations that lobby the federal to continue the war on drugs and protect them from any liability.