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A dev who worked "hundreds of hours" on Starbound wasn't paid a cent by Chucklefish, along with other unpaid workers after being promised pay
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Some schools in my area require an unpaid internship. You attend during class hours and it's a good foot in the door for networking and learning office habits. If your work was good enough there was always a chance you could be taken on after you graduate but it was more the company doing a favor for the school as work input as you can imagine would be pretty basic for a sub entry level job. I do think as a course it has its merit.
If you are taking unpaid internships outside of school, it's hard to justify at all. I'm sure that video game design entry level is competitive but that has to be a personal finance blow you are willing to make. At the end of the day no one is being tricked. He should have cut his losses as hard as that pill is to swallow.
If you are taking unpaid internships outside of school, it's hard to justify at all. I'm sure that video game design entry level is competitive but that has to be a personal finance blow you are willing to make. At the end of the day no one is being tricked. He should have cut his losses as hard as that pill is to swallow.
To people saying "it was a voluntary unpaid internship". Maybe we shouldn't be having any unpaid interships? Maybe companies should do better. I understand budgetary concerns but they continued to let his guy and many others work unpaid and made no effort to encourage him to move on or help them into a fulltime paid position. Sounds like they were also guilting those who managed to get full-time work when they brought up any unpaid folk - so maybe the problem is more dark and deep rooted that just simple negligence.
Nobody is acting like a 2-year long unpaid internship is normal or acceptable. The only reason you think it looks that way is because people are choosing to classify this situation, which was likely an enthusiastic fan who volunteered his time here and there from his bedroom over the course of two years to contribute to the project without any expectation of compensation. When you say, "2-year long internship," people get the impression that you have a kid clocking in at an office every day and doing junior-level tasks. Why are people choosing to use language that paints this in the worst possible way to make it look like this person was a victim?
Are you alright? Worried.
I am not saying you said anything. I (me) said, that the bad stuff at Chucklefish is real and can't be denied. I do have insider knowledge, though, and so does everyone on this thread who read what Rhopunzel said. She was at Chucklefish at the beginning. And she didn't just say "Yeah, that's true." She went on to say a lot of bad stuff that happened there.
It seems you are pretty invested in the notion that Barone's exit couldn't possibly be because the people in charge of CF were bad. It had to be something else. If it makes you happy, we can agree that both our "feelings" are equally valid. Unless, of course, you can PROVE he left for any other reason.
Be well, person. You seem a little nervous.
I can't believe I didn't see it before. "User made content that companies profit off" is clearly the appropriate comparison point and not reductive at all.
All of the people that post their artwork on Deviantart? Unpaid interns.
People who share their photography on Instagram? Unpaid interns!
Obviously, it'd be great not having to do work for free. If you can, why wouldn't you? Maybe it's because employers don't want to allocate staffing budget and onboarding time on an 18-year old with no experience when they can easily hire someone with a couple years proving they can already earn the salary.
So how do you get work experience to put onto a resume then? Maybe you can work on personal projects as a showcase. Maybe you can do an internship. If no one wants to pay you for your service, then yes, look for an unpaid internship.
Getting a job is kinda your responsibility, too. You can't just assume an employer knows how great you will be and should hand you an offer without question. You need to have something concrete on your resume to prove it. The "compensation" for unpaid internships is an opportunity to learn skills and produce evidence of your capability.
To tell others "not to work for free" is fairly naïve and not a one-size-fits-all piece of advice.
I feel the issue here is that he decided to continue for 2 years...why would he do that instead of applying for a paying job? Did Chucklefish make false promises? If so, that's really messed up, but that's not what this person is hinting at all. Did he think he owned a stake of the project?
This is exactly what I tell graphic design artists when I want something photoshopped or some artwork commissioned.
They always ask for money. Are you crazy?
The "compensation" is exposure and the opportunity to prove yourself!
Speaking of, can you photoshop something for me real quick?
You seem to be really incensed by this comparison, but it doesn't come across as all that ridiculous to me. It's people volunteering their time to add value to a platform/product that they also enjoy and consume. That seems very similar to what we know about this situation.
For someone who seems to hate inappropriate comparisons, why are you acting as if you, a random forum poster, are the same as a company that produces products and services that can actually be put on a resume and used to further one's career?
Lmao what about my post sounds "incensed"? Or is that just the go-to argument when someone wants to discredit someone else's post out of the gate?
Tell me, is everyone posting art to Deviantart an unpaid intern because they're generating "user made content that companies profit off"?
Maybe incredulous would have been the better word, but you seem really bothered by it. I don't say that to discredit your stance. I just don't understand what makes it such a ridiculous comparison and would love if you elaborated instead of making sensationalist statements.
I'm arguing that this guy was not an unpaid intern in any traditional (or likely legal) sense, so no, I do not think that people contributing user-made content are unpaid interns, either.
For some reason they simply are unable to escape from their tunnel vision. Oh well, no skin off my back.
I've been in a situation where half the company comprised unpaid interns, mostly students looking for industry experience. The CEO would literally say "who cares if they leave, they're just interns."
We were falling apart and in the last year, I and a few others went without pay so that we could keep our junior level full time employees. The situation was pretty dire.
We were falling apart and in the last year, I and a few others went without pay so that we could keep our junior level full time employees. The situation was pretty dire.
Can I get paid for my services elsewhere? If yes, then my reply to you is "no". If I can't get paid elsewhere, then will doing your request look good on my resume/portfolio? If yes, then my reply to you is "sure". If it does not benefit me in terms of experience, then my reply is "no".
Except the person I was originally responding to, before you took this off on a different tangent, literally said people contributing user-made content are akin to unpaid interns:
Which is what I was originally responding to.
That is called abuse of power. You know he wants to get in the industry and you exploit that. There is no sugar coating it.
When i was in uni I got an unpaid internship offer and i told the lady that I needed some income cause I had bills to pay. She answered that they could allow me to finish a few hours early so I could get second job. I told her to fuck off.
No it is not. This guy was not coerced into doing this. He volunteered his time and was not a victim of power abuse. He may have been naive to believe that this would lead into paid work at the same developer that he obviously liked, but unless we have evidence that Chucklefish lied to him or otherwise lead him on about such opportunities, that's completely on him. I won't admonish a 16 year old for being foolish, but at some point you've got to take responsibility for yourself.
Exactly like you told that lady to fuck off, he should have realized very quickly that his dreams of being hired on full-time were just that and bailed out long before he did.
Now, there's an argument that Chucklefish should never have solicited volunteer work that would end up in their commercial product and I'd probably agree that doing such a thing is pretty shitty, especially if they had the means to fund the development entirely via paid work by employees or contractors.
And you still haven't explained how or why it's that different. Re-read my post since you didn't read it the first time, clearly, and explain how the practice is significantly different. This person spending hundreds upon hundreds of hours making a fully-functional game in Dreams is not going to receive a dime of monetary compensation and won't have a line item on their CV to reflect their time or a person to talk to about their experience. The hope is that their game is good enough to get some recognition so it can serve as a reference point in terms of getting a job in the industry. But that's it. There's no money, there's no tangible thing they can point to, there's no name in the credits.. it's just a hope that their time wasn't wasted for nothing.
An internship, or volunteer position as was the case with the OP, does generally result in there being tangible results even if there isn't monetary compensation. You've got a job reference for the future and you've got a line item on your CV that reflects your time with the company.
Please explain how a willful decision to do unpaid work in hopes of it benefiting you at a later date is significantly different in either scenario. I am assuming you will not -- as has repeatedly begin the case --- but I'd love to be proven wrong.
So are working interviews. I knew a dentist that would "interview" hygiene students when his hygienists were off and not hire anyone getting free labor. It's no common practice to pay potential dental hires a wage for the hours they work while on the working interview.
I had options in college for my accounting internship, I asked if any were paid. I said I will only interview with those. The university pushed real hard for the unpaid ones because they were the big name firms and locations. I said fact that. I'm going to be working 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week for this I'm getting paid.
Oh, no, not Chucklefish, I love their games.
It sucks that this happens. A lot of studios feed on game development being a "dream job" and abuse their workers in any way you can imagine. I know how it feels to work for someone with a promise of "eventual payment" that never arrives, and then seeing everyone praise them for the content they produce.
It sucks that this happens. A lot of studios feed on game development being a "dream job" and abuse their workers in any way you can imagine. I know how it feels to work for someone with a promise of "eventual payment" that never arrives, and then seeing everyone praise them for the content they produce.
That's great for you. How about a student who is being rejected for any paid positions? Should they still refuse unpaid internships, which would serve as an opportunity to learn new skills and build their resume, or just continue waiting? The concern is that the paid position may never come due to their lack of experience/resume. Students use unpaid internships to actively pursue a paid position. That's the point of it.
The person in question actually is in the credits for Starbound and also credited on their website and the official Wiki.
I would argue that the difference between this and an unpaid internship is that there is typically an agreement between the intern and the company laying out the expectations and term, etc. There's also usually an expectation that the intern will gain meaningful experience that they do not currently have, but want (basically receiving an education). This situation sounds a lot more like a coalition of willing volunteers who wanted to contribute to the development of a game like you often see in mod scenes. The only difference here is that Chucklefish were set on selling the end product from the beginning.
Are you saying you have evidence that Chucklefish promised compensation and didn't deliver? That seems like a big story if true.
Except in mod scenes you're not literally taking direction from management. The person in the OP stated that they took specific direction from management on what work to do - specifically working on parts of the narrative at their supervisor's request in the form of lore or dialog.
Does that sound like something "you often see in mod scenes"?
In a more ambitious total conversion project? Sure. Not "management," but there's often someone who is in charge of things.
That's up to the individual. I cannot speak for anyone else. I was raised on the notion of getting paid for the work you do. The excuse of building skills and what ot is just an excuse to not pay somone and exploit free labor. I totally get the point, but that does not make it any less exploitative.
What?
The point here is that the person in the OP had supervisors from Chucklefish telling him what to do.
Is that what we have in the mods scene? The original dev directing modders what to do?
Doesnt make sense.. the kid realized he didn't get paid for 2 years and finally opens up? This is a UK situation but most tech internships in the US are all paid.
No, of course not, but most companies also don't solicit volunteer work to go into their commercial product. This is something I already addressed earlier.
Haha, thank you. When I read that post I was actually face-palming.
Dude, you were the one who compared this to making mods. All I did was point out that the comparison to modding is absurd. This dude had management at Chucklefish telling him what work to do, after which he'd do it and deliver it to them. That's nothing like making mods.
Volunteer-based collaborative effort with direction to produce something is very much similar to a lot of mod/TC teams of past and present.
The difference here is that the people giving direction were employees of Chucklefish who intended to make a profit from volunteer work. I think that's a shady practice, but unless they lied or misrepresented the relationship, it's hard to consider this person a victim of power abuse.
Read through the UK Laws over here:
When interns aren't due the National Minimum Wage
Student Internship: Students required to do an internship for less than one year as part of a UK-based further or higher education course aren't entitled to the National Minimum Wage.
- Since they said that they worked for 2 years, this one does not apply to them.
School Work Experience Placements: It's only unpaid if said person is under the age of 16. They mentioned they were 16, so this doesn't apply.
Voluntary Workers: They wouldn't have to pay if both of these 2 things apply to Chucklefish.
Workers aren't entitled to the minimum wage if both of the following apply:
- Since they're not a charity, voluntary organisation, associated fund raising body or statutory body, this automatically means it's a no.
Work Shadowing: The employer doesn't have to pay the minimum wage if an internship only involves shadowing an employee, ie no work is carried out by the intern and they are only observing.
- Since they said they worked HUNDREDS of hours, this point is also a no since they weren't just shadowing.
Unless the contract SPECIFIED it was a WORK EXPERIENCE role, it sounds like they should've been paid. If it wasn't a Work Experience role, they need to contact the Pay and Work Rights helpline.
EDIT:
By law, if your intern is doing more than just shadowing other employees, they are classed as a 'worker' and must legally be paid for the work they do. This includes if they:
When interns aren't due the National Minimum Wage
Student Internship: Students required to do an internship for less than one year as part of a UK-based further or higher education course aren't entitled to the National Minimum Wage.
- Since they said that they worked for 2 years, this one does not apply to them.
School Work Experience Placements: It's only unpaid if said person is under the age of 16. They mentioned they were 16, so this doesn't apply.
Voluntary Workers: They wouldn't have to pay if both of these 2 things apply to Chucklefish.
Workers aren't entitled to the minimum wage if both of the following apply:
- they're working for a charity, voluntary organisation, associated fund raising body or a statutory body
- they don't get paid, except for limited benefits (eg reasonable travel or lunch expenses)
- Since they're not a charity, voluntary organisation, associated fund raising body or statutory body, this automatically means it's a no.
Work Shadowing: The employer doesn't have to pay the minimum wage if an internship only involves shadowing an employee, ie no work is carried out by the intern and they are only observing.
- Since they said they worked HUNDREDS of hours, this point is also a no since they weren't just shadowing.
Unless the contract SPECIFIED it was a WORK EXPERIENCE role, it sounds like they should've been paid. If it wasn't a Work Experience role, they need to contact the Pay and Work Rights helpline.
EDIT:
By law, if your intern is doing more than just shadowing other employees, they are classed as a 'worker' and must legally be paid for the work they do. This includes if they:
- Are promised a contract of future work
- They are working on set tasks that are unsupervised
For what it's worth I do believe that having 2 years experience and your name in the credits of a successful game is worth more in the long run than whatever minimum wage salary they would have got at 16. I'm sure it played a part in landing their current job. 16-18 is young as hell and 2 years experience is invaluable to have on your CV at that age. Even though they're grumpy about it now I still think it was probably a good decision.
You're assuming that there was any written agreement at all. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, the person in question does not even live on the same continent as Chucklefish.
Now you're moving goalposts. Your original point was that this wasn't an "unpaid internship" because it's actually more similar to making mods. I point out that it's not, because this person was actually doing work at the direction of company management. You don't take direction from and deliver your product to the original developer when you're making mods. The fact that he was explicitly working for Chucklefish is a salient difference that, yes, makes this like an unpaid internship.
Was he an unpaid intern or paid? If he was promised pay from the get go and didn't get any, then that's shady. Not enough info from the tweets on OP for us to draw any conclusions imo
Not moving any goalposts.
What does the direction coming from the company have to do with making him an unpaid intern? I'm failing to see the key link there. They solicited volunteer work. We've established that. What does their soliciting specific work for specific volunteers do to change the meaning of that act to hiring on "unpaid interns?"
Volunteer work is volunteer work, regardless if someone is going to make a profit from it. As long as the nature of the relationship is made clear up front, I'm not seeing how the nature of the work done turns the volunteers into "unpaid interns" in legal terms.
It doesn't matter.
He carried out work of a "worker" by working hundreds of hours and not just "work shadowing" and in the UK that means he should be paid, unless these points applied to said person:
- voluntary workers, working for a charity, voluntary organisation etc.
- a sandwich placement that is part of a higher education course
- if a student is carrying out work shadowing.
All these points still go along with my other post. Since he worked over 1 year, it wasn't a School Internship or School Work Experience Placement.
Well, what is it? You seem to be implying that volunteer work technically or legally cannot exist in a commercial product or service intended to make a profit.
I'm not going to spend hours of my time researching employment law in the UK, but is it clearly stated somewhere that incorporated entities cannot solicit volunteer work?
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Isn't this all null if there was no written contract between both parties? Even my unpaid internship had a contract.
This is some ignorant shit. "Age isn't an excuse for stupidity" er yes it is...hence why there are strict labor laws for minors.
Two years of unpaid "internship" is exploitation, simple as that. Chucklefish is in the UK so I'm pretty confident there are actual laws against this. I'm only aware of unpaid internships for students as part of their studies, and those last like 6 months at most.
Its probably volunteer work though. Doesnt seem like he was an official employee hired on by HR and in their system. Just a kid on the internet chucklefish asked for help from.
I'm in favor of encouraging people to not get into game development until companies are more willing to treat employees fairly. I think the most effective way to make change is to simply make it clear people with tech and art skills are willing to go do something else. Who cares if video games are your passion. Don't be handcuffed to the idea of working in video games. And for me this goes doubly so if you're on the software engineering side of game development.