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Deleted member 1635

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Its probably volunteer work though. Doesnt seem like he was an official employee hired on by HR and in their system. Just a kid on the internet chucklefish asked for help from.

And considering it's unlikely that anyone would seek out the services of an unknown 16 year old, it's far more likely that he was a passionate fan who was excited about the project, wanted to get involved, and approached them with ideas and suggestions, and an offer to contribute as a volunteer.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
And considering it's unlikely that anyone would seek out the services of an unknown 16 year old, it's far more likely that he was a passionate fan who was excited about the project, wanted to get involved, and approached them with ideas and suggestions, and an offer to contribute as a volunteer.
We should all make up speculative information to support our arguments.
 

Deleted member 1635

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6,800
We should all make up speculative information to support our arguments.

I'm open to evidence that indicates otherwise, but this seems like a fair assumption to me. If he were a known 16 year old that was sought out, he would have had even less reason to dedicate his time to contributing as a volunteer over such a long period of time...

Should I expect no more than your "lol" in regards to our last exchange, by the way? For what it's worth, I was actually interested in understanding your argument and point.
 

zoltek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,917
I don't care if you are an unpaid intern, a contractor, or an in-house employee. You have a contract that both parties sign and you make sure that the contract spells out either A) your compensation or B) the length of your unpaid internship. At the end of the internship period, if you enjoy your job, you approach management about converting to employee status. If they balk, you leave. At this point, you have the experience to put on your resume.

This kid was taken advantage of (as are most unpaid interns in highly competitive fields), but hopefully he learned something: ALWAYS have something in writing.
 

Trickstah

Banned
Sep 16, 2018
214
Isn't this all null if there was no written contract between both parties? Even my unpaid internship had a contract.

There's always some sort of agreement/contract for internships as the Employer has to class you under worker/volunteer/employee in their system.

Now if this was a volunteer position, there would've been a volunteering agreement.


Its probably volunteer work though. Doesnt seem like he was an official employee hired on by HR and in their system. Just a kid on the internet chucklefish asked for help from.

Their would've been a volunteering agreement between them two if it was a volunteer position.

Obviously it's going to be a back and forward discussion since none of us except the tweeter know the actual position they were given. Unless we know if it was an internship or Volunteer position. If it was an Internship, they SHOULD be paid just for the fact that they did work that a normal worker would do.

I think one thing that is odd is the person would definitely know if they were going to be paid or not regardless or position, so we just need more information to deduce whether or not they legally SHOULD be paid or not at that point.
 

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
There's always some sort of agreement/contract for internships as the Employer has to class you under worker/volunteer/employee in their system.

Now if this was a volunteer position, there would've been a volunteering agreement.




Their would've been a volunteering agreement between them two if it was a volunteer position.

Obviously it's going to be a back and forward discussion since none of us except the tweeter know the actual position they were given. Unless we know if it was an internship or Volunteer position. If it was an Internship, they SHOULD be paid just for the fact that they did work that a normal worker would do.

I think one thing that is odd is the person would definitely know if they were going to be paid or not regardless or position, so we just need more information to deduce whether or not they legally SHOULD be paid or not at that point.
I volunteered for a couple mobile games when I was a kid and there was no written agreement at all, they just let me into a group chat, and asked me to get a set of graphics made by the end of each week. Is that illegal?
 

NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,840
Working for free on something somebody else is going to profit on is foolish. I am glad the person is now spreading the word. They most likely would have got the same experience developing a game on their own, but they would have owned the fruits of their labor.
 

Trickstah

Banned
Sep 16, 2018
214
I volunteered for a couple mobile games when I was a kid and there was no written agreement at all, they just let me into a group chat, and asked me to get a set of graphics made by the end of each week. Is that illegal?

Not illegal, but there is always some sort of written agreement on their end and what said person would be doing in regards to volunteering. It's a different story if it's a real contract as they have to provide you a written statement within 2 months of you working in regards to the terms of the contract.
 
Nov 23, 2017
4,302
Not every Twitter Confession(TM) is worth the same amount of drama and outrage. This definitely falls on the low end.

He was a volunteer. Sorry.
Dude just stop. The amount of direction and clear motive to sell a product (this isn't a charity or non profit) makes them much more than a volunteer under UK law.

You clearly didn't even read the tweets and sound like such an asshole with multiple dismissive posts that don't even make sense.
 

scare_crow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,305
Dude just stop. The amount of direction and clear motive to sell a product (this isn't a charity or non profit) makes them much more than a volunteer under UK law.

You clearly didn't even read the tweets and sound like such an asshole with multiple dismissive posts that don't even make sense.
They are listed as a "volunteer" in the credits, aren't they? Then I assume that was the agreement. Are unpaid gigs shitty? Yes. Did they get experience and resume/portfolio material? Seems like it. Not everything is a THING.

If I walk into a business tomorrow and get offered a volunteer position for experience or contacts, agree to it, and then what I worked on goes on to make millions, am I entitled to any of the profit? No. Should I be included for future job consideration or otherwise compensation? Possibly. But I don't think we know anything about them in that sense.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
dude, the concept of it being good or bad has no relevance. This isnt the subject at hand. He CHOSE to do it. He agreed to these terms. Thats it. The end of story. He was free to do whatever he wanted. Dont like it? Dont apply. Dont like it? Leave.

Boiling it down to a simple "you could just choose not to do it" doesn't really work in an industry where getting and keeping paid work is difficult regardless of how well the company is doing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Probably a hardcore fan who entered in the beta testing through the Discord group. I know other indie games (smaller than Starbound) where the biggest fans also beta test the game in a private channel, for free.

I mean, he doesn't provide details. Nothing about contracts, nothing about broken promises, nothing. So I'm going to suppose that, easiest explanation.

But they have someone corroborating their dig on Chucklefish who was also employed and was in a higher-up position than them. Lacking that I can understand, but with corroboration it feels like you're aiming to side with Chucklefish specifically.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
I wonder what were the clauses. In some fields of study you have to do some internship work in order to graduate

More often that work lasts for several months (2 months would be 320 hours for example and it's commonly 10 weeks or 400 hours) and is unpaid as it's part of training and mentoring.

I don't believe it's right but was that what he did? It's incredibly common in IT here in Quebec.

We even have colleges who mandate that their students aren't paid for that internship (others are whatever and we pay them on our end when allowed)
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1849

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Oct 25, 2017
6,986
"They had all been given promises of future pay"

That, and his foul mouthed rant about how artists, coders, and musicians who want to be paid are entitled should hopefully put to death all the "well he agreed to it" "he was basically a modder doing volunteer work", etc in this thread.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,796
JP
You guys don't understand, he was getting free education.

/s

This happens a lot as well in start ups, but I have never seen this happening for as long as two years holy shit.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Splendidland has also confirmed a similar situation when they were 18



it's disheartening because as a pixel artist in the UK, Chucklefish was one of the best possible routes for my future career, now I dunno what to do
 

Deleted member 4367

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Oct 25, 2017
12,226
Honestly I'm annoyed at companies who accept free labor and people who undercut real labor by offering their services for free.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1849

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Seems like getting shouted at if you dare ask for payment was a common thing there, seeing how we now have multiple people all saying similar things.
 

Deleted member 283

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The thread, pretty much. Very disappointing to read so many of these responses.

If you're doing work, and you're not being paid for that work, but other people are doing the exact same type of work as you, and ARE being paid for it, that's inherently exploitative and their's absolutely no justification for it. Doesn't matter how much people scream "but they agreed to it," "but the exposure," etc, if you're paying one person for a certain type of work but also have another group of people doing the same work but not getting paid for it, that's just not a thing that should happen, EVER (as if that work is worth paying one person for when they do it, it's worth paying everyone for, you don't get to pick and choose) , for any reason, and shame on any employer for letting that happen to begin with, as they're the ones that ultimately call the shots, they're the ones that put those systems into place in the first place, they have every ability to shut that down and stop it from ever being a thing to begin with if they give the most SINGLE SOLITARY FUCK about anyone who works for them, and so I will not tolerate any shifting of blame or fault there as it's something that ultimately starts and ends with the employers themselves, and shame on them for doing this to their employees and putting these systems into place in the first place which shouldn't exist under any circumstances.

That, and as we're learning in this thread, it seems there's multiple accounts now of people saying Chucklefish promising them "future pay" which they never got, making it that much worse. That's on Chucklefish before anyone else, they're the ones that allowed that to happen and it wouldn't happen without them deliberately trying to pull a fast one like that and exploit them, and so I will put it on them above all else and will not tolerate trying to shift fault to anyone else in any way.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1849

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The thread, pretty much. Very disappointing to read so many of these responses.

If you're doing work, and you're not being paid for that work, but other people are doing the exact same type of work as you, and ARE being paid for it, that's inherently exploitative and their's absolutely no justification for it. Doesn't matter how much people scream "but they agreed to it," "but the exposure," etc, if you're paying one person for a certain type of work but also have another group of people doing the same work but not getting paid for it, that's just not a thing that should happen, EVER (as if that work is worth paying one person for when they do it, it's worth paying everyone for, you don't get to pick and choose) , for any reason, and shame on any employer for letting that happen to begin with, as they're the ones that ultimately call the shots, they're the ones that put those systems into place in the first place, they have every ability to shut that down and stop it from ever being a thing to begin with if they give the most SINGLE SOLITARY FUCK about anyone who works for them, and so I will not tolerate any shifting of blame or fault there as it's something that ultimately starts and ends with the employers themselves, and shame on them for doing this to their employees and putting these systems into place in the first place which shouldn't exist under any circumstances.

That, and as we're learning in this thread, it seems there's multiple accounts now of people saying Chucklefish promising them "future pay" which they never got, making it that much worse. That's on Chucklefish before anyone else, they're the ones that allowed that to happen and it wouldn't happen without them deliberately trying to pull a fast one like that and exploit them, and so I will put it on them above all else and will not tolerate trying to shift fault to anyone else in any way.


I agree completely, and it's good to see more posts like this here. Seeing some of the responses earlier was really disheartening.
 

MrHedin

Member
Dec 7, 2018
6,811
I'd be interested in hearing if this is a practice Chucklefish still does or if they have stopped doing things this way.
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,401
i feel like i need time and room to just sit down and process all the shit that has been coming out over the last *checks watch* three days, almost entirely about mid-tier indies too.

this fucking industry, holy shit
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1849

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It certainly has been a real shit week for news about indie devs and publishers.

EDIT: Thanks for the thread title change mods
 

Deepwater

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Oct 25, 2017
6,349
This is really unfortunate. Was very excited for WitchBrook but now I'll probably pass on it whenever it comes out.
 

Deleted member 1635

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Oct 25, 2017
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If they promised future pay and compensation and didn't deliver, then they deserve to be sued for back wages and damages.

Working for free on something somebody else is going to profit on is foolish. I am glad the person is now spreading the word. They most likely would have got the same experience developing a game on their own, but they would have owned the fruits of their labor.

In this case, the person in the OP appears to have contributed as a writer, so it probably would have been tough to make a game of their own.
 

ry-dog

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Oct 25, 2017
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Unpaid interns / workers are illegal in a lot of countries, but that's beside the point, you shouldn't be licking the boot of a million dollar company for exploiting a 16 year old, legal or not.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
All the people saying this was a good opportunity silent now

Adsoft_direct_local_marketing_automation_kermit.XXX_.jpg
 

Landford

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Oct 25, 2017
4,678
Wow at that toby stuff. They fucking put the music back when he became famous?

Fuck Chucklefish.
 

plufim

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Sep 29, 2018
1,083
I hope some of the usual gaming personalities talk about this, but I don't have much hope. They've never put Nicalis on notice despite... Everything. Indies only get brought up if they're directly involved with the AAA hatefest of the day.

Edit: I hope Tobyfox sues them into the fucking dirt.
 
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OP
OP

Deleted member 1849

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I hope some of the usual gaming personalities talk about this, but I don't have much hope. They've never put Nicalis on notice despite... Everything. Indies only get brought up if they're directly involved with the AAA hatefest of the day.

Edit: I hope Tobyfox sues them into the fucking dirt.
I've been quite disappointed that this hasn't been picked up by anyone except GameRevolution.

And the whole Toby Fox thing is awful too
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,397
This is all kinds of fucked up, further amplified by how successful Starbound (and their other stuff) has been. I don't believe Chucklefish can talk their way out of this one. (Assuming they make a public statement vs. trying to just bury it with silence.)
 

Vintage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,292
Europe
Well, he learned a valuable lesson.

I hope Chucklefish revises all their projects to make sure it's not currently happening to more people.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1849

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This is all kinds of fucked up, further amplified by how successful Starbound (and their other stuff) has been. I don't believe Chucklefish can talk their way out of this one. (Assuming they make a public statement vs. trying to just bury it with silence.)
Given the lack of media attention that would be quite easy...

That said

 

Hanuli

Member
Oct 28, 2017
169
Finland
Impressionable kids ? victim blame ? If the guy took an unpaid internship, it means he was working to hone his skills and get experience. I mean, he was a 16 year old without qualifications or work experience. Im guessing he chose this. There is stuff like this everywhere in the world. You're not a victim, for fucks sake. Its something you choose so you can get better options down the line.
If they were good enough to do actual work on the game (And not just look from behind a pro's shoulder), they deserve to get paid for it.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,161
Singapore
This is all kinds of fucked up, further amplified by how successful Starbound (and their other stuff) has been. I don't believe Chucklefish can talk their way out of this one. (Assuming they make a public statement vs. trying to just bury it with silence.)
I don't know. I remember Starbound from the earliest days. I remember how it was originally going to be a far more ambitious Terraria in space. Then they started doing Kickstarter style preorders on their own site to fund development when the game took too long. I remember them delaying the game again and again, overpromising, stringing fans along for monetary support, and talking about moving into offices in LONDON with the preorder money they raised, as an indie dev that hasn't shipped anything yet. It was definitely a weird situation where I felt they were taking advantage of goodwill from Terraria. I didn't feel good about supporting Starbound long term.

It's sad to see that the situation was so much worse behind the scenes. They managed to get out of all the early days of backlash and doubt. But yeah they should be called out here and made accountable.