A dev who worked "hundreds of hours" on Starbound wasn't paid a cent by Chucklefish, along with other unpaid workers after being promised pay

Pancoar

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
929
Wow, I put a lot of hours into Starbound and it was even one of the few games I kickstarted. Was thinking of diving back into Starbound recently, then I see this thread and not sure how I feel now.

Pretty damn sad at how widespread this seems to be with Chucklefish, and that shit they pulled with Toby. Just awful all around and wow at people actually defending this.

Edit: Oh, so that's why bartwe left.
 

Phantom88

Banned
Jan 7, 2018
726
If they were good enough to do actual work on the game (And not just look from behind a pro's shoulder), they deserve to get paid for it.
sure. He may have done an awesome job that deserves to be paid for. But we're not in kindergarten, were in real life. You dont get what you deserve in life, you get what you negotiate. He negotiated that he will work for free. Now hes trying to be outraged on twitter that he didnt get some money - i dont know, as a gift ?

Wow, I put a lot of hours into Starbound and it was even one of the few games I kickstarted. Was thinking of diving back into Starbound recently, then I see this thread and not sure how I feel now.

Pretty damn sad at how widespread this seems to be with Chucklefish, and that shit they pulled with Toby. Just awful all around and wow at people actually defending this.
I dont think people are defending this. Just pointing out theres nothing to be outraged by, since every single thing hat he did was of the guys volition and accord. The fact that we're trying so hard to be outraged by absolutely nothing at all is blowing my mind. This whole thread is trying to round up people for the newest thing to be outraged about, even when theres nothing here. Like, completely nothing. Even being dissapointed that outlets arent making a fuss about it. Of course nobody is making a fuss because theres nothing to fuss about
 

haradaku7

Member
May 28, 2018
954
Damm, I liked there games too.

I can not support these kinds of practices though. You would think they backdate pay after they made their money.
 

Kass15

Member
Jan 14, 2018
716
Experience and the ability to improve your resume is a form of compensation. This individual must have signed a contract to come on board to work as an unpaid intern. Not really understanding the outrage. If anything, it’s slimey of this individual to try to stir the pot on something they agreed to and signed up for. Additionally, this experience on their resume is more likely than not what has given them additional opportunities in the industry. The issue involving Toby is bad though.
 

Minky

Verified
Oct 27, 2017
372
UK
sure. He may have done an awesome job that deserves to be paid for. But we're not in kindergarten, were in real life. You dont get what you deserve in life, you get what you negotiate. He negotiated that he will work for free. Now hes trying to be outraged on twitter that he didnt get some money - i dont know, as a gift ?
This is an extremely bad take
 
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Nappael

Nappael

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sure. He may have done an awesome job that deserves to be paid for. But we're not in kindergarten, were in real life. You dont get what you deserve in life, you get what you negotiate. He negotiated that he will work for free. Now hes trying to be outraged on twitter that he didnt get some money - i dont know, as a gift ?
Not only is this an extremely fucking awful take, but are you completely ignoring the part where we have multiple instances of developers saying that they were promised payment that never came?

Seriously, please just fuck off if this is all you can bring to the discussion. You are defending workforce exploitation.
 

Phantom88

Banned
Jan 7, 2018
726
Not only is this an extremely fucking awful take, but are you completely ignoring the part where we have multiple instances of developers saying that they were promised payment that never came?

Seriously, please just fuck off if this is all you can bring to the discussion. You are defending workforce exploitation.
i have not seen other devs and what not, but this is a thread aboout this particular guy what he did when he was 16 year old. Not other devs. Im talking about him. Im not defending anything. Nobody enslaved him and forced him to do anything
 

citrusred

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Oct 28, 2017
989
i have not seen other devs and what not, but this is a thread aboout this particular guy what he did when he was 16 year old. Not other devs. Im talking about him. Im not defending anything. Nobody enslaved him and forced him to do anything
You are literally defending people who choose to take advantage of a child.
 
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Nappael

Nappael

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i have not seen other devs and what not, but this is a thread aboout this particular guy what he did when he was 16 year old. Not other devs. Im talking about him. Im not defending anything. Nobody enslaved him and forced him to do anything
"along with other unpaid workers after being promised pay"

It's in the fucking title. I'm the OP, I decide what the thread is about, and this thread is about Chucklefish exploiting optimistic teenagers for free labor.
 

Phantom88

Banned
Jan 7, 2018
726
You are literally defending people who choose to take advantage of a child.
i am not.

along with other unpaid workers after being promised pay
You have three tweets in the op of the guy saying how he feels entitled to pay for his efforts over the course of two years. Im not seeing the stuff you put in the title. Has there been a breach of signed contractual payments? Then, by all means. Make them pay, they are at fault and its illegal. If there wasnt any and this guy had an unpaid internship this is just bullshit.

Im not trying to tell you what to make the thread about. Just saying this particular subject is some hilarious bullshit where you're trying to nitpick something to be outraged about and raise a mob over. Thinking youre the good guy i imagine
 

Weltall Zero

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,193
Madrid
Fucking hell. This cuts really, really deep for me considering Starbound is my most played Steam game :( . Really hoping Chucklefish at least compensates him now for these hours.
 
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Nappael

Nappael

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i am not.



You have three tweets in the op of the guy saying how he feels entitled to pay for his efforts over the course of two years. Im not seeing the stuff you put in the title. Has there been a breach of signed contractual payments? Then, by all means. Make them pay, they are at fault and its illegal. If there wasnt any and this guy had an unpaid internship this is just bullshit.

Im not trying to tell you what to make the thread about. Just saying this particular subject is some hilarious bullshit where you're trying to nitpick something to be outraged about and raise a mob over. Thinking youre the good guy i imagine
Check the threadmarks, and read the other twitter posts in this thread. However, you are right, I should probably update the OP.

However, fuck you for that final comment. If that's all you can bring to the thread please fuck off.
 
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ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,142
Just saying this particular subject is some hilarious bullshit where you're trying to nitpick something to be outraged about and raise a mob over. Thinking youre the good guy i imagine
Again with this fucking mob shit from you. You'd think you would've learned when you got a 5-day ban the last time you whined about others trying to form mobs when they did literally nothing but make a thread about an injustice they thought should get seen by more eyes, but clearly learning from one's mistakes is too much to ask for.
 

Phantom88

Banned
Jan 7, 2018
726
User banned (1 week): misrepresenting and antagonizing other users over multiple posts
Again with this fucking mob shit from you. You'd think you would've learned when you got a 5-day ban the last time you whined about others trying to form mobs when they did literally nothing but make a thread about an injustice they thought should get seen by more eyes, but clearly learning from one's mistakes is too much to ask for.
im not whining, just observing. I dont think threads like these are made in good faith. For the "victim". The makers of said threads are upset that the reaction they wanted wasnt formed. Not awareness from people.

The things these threads want is always to make the perceived villain hurt. Make him fired, make him suffer, make him feel pain, destroy his life if possible.
 
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Nappael

Nappael

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im not whining, just observing. I dont think threads like these are made in good faith. For the "victim". The makers of said threads are upset that the reaction they wanted wasnt formed. Not awareness from people.

The things these threads want is always to make the perceived villain hurt. Make him fired, make him suffer, make him feel pain, destroy his life if possible.
What are you even trying here?

I think worker exploitation is a problem, and wanted to raise awareness to it. I'm not unhappy with how this thread went, the only thing I'm unhappy with is you shitting all over it repeatedly with awful takes, victim blaming, and now also accusing me of shit.

So again: If this is all you can do, please fuck off.
 
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ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,142
im not whining, just observing. I dont think threads like these are made in good faith. For the "victim". The makers of said threads are upset that the reaction they wanted wasnt formed. Not awareness from people.

The things these threads want is always to make the perceived villain hurt. Make him fired, make him suffer, make him feel pain, destroy his life if possible.
If this is what you actually believe, you're genuinely, honest-to-god delusional. I can only hope you're just trolling.
 

Oreiller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,390
im not whining, just observing. I dont think threads like these are made in good faith. For the "victim". The makers of said threads are upset that the reaction they wanted wasnt formed. Not awareness from people.

The things these threads want is always to make the perceived villain hurt. Make him fired, make him suffer, make him feel pain, destroy his life if possible.
Are you really this dense mate or are you trolling on purpose?
 

spineduke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,895
i have not seen other devs and what not, but this is a thread aboout this particular guy what he did when he was 16 year old. Not other devs. Im talking about him. Im not defending anything. Nobody enslaved him and forced him to do anything
You are defending workplace exploitation. Stop being disingenuous.
 

nillansan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,212
Denmark
The things these threads want is always to make the perceived villain hurt. Make him fired, make him suffer, make him feel pain, destroy his life if possible.
I am starting to sense a pattern here.

This was his take when a poster made a thread highlighting that Ion Fury was made by bigots.

i mean, the op of this thread literally made this thread because he didnt got his witch hunt in the game threads. He stated it in this op. He kept bringing this up, but the mobs werent forming. So he got ambitious and made a whole dedicated thread.
 

Phantom88

Banned
Jan 7, 2018
726
You are defending workplace exploitation. Stop being disingenuous.
why would i defend it ? Im saying its not exploitation if the guy knew what he's getting into and agreed without anyone forcing him. My last work place had internships. Big, international company. Nobody was being exploited, or enslaved. It helped college kids get some work experience, see how this stuff works and have an easier time getting a job when they finish college. Those kids chose to do it. It was advertised as unpaid. They signed papers. Those who wanted to do it, it was their choice. If this guy the tweets are about did the same thing, why are we trying to paint it as something it isnt ? If the terms of your job are not to your liking, leave. Its as simple as that. I mean the guy stayed 2 years without pay and know he tries to act like he got duped ? Come on. Would you work even a month without pay?
 
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Nappael

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why would i defend it ? Im saying its not exploitation if the guy knew what he's getting into and agreed without anyone forcing him. My last work place had internships. Big, international company. Nobody was being exploited, or enslaved. It helped college kids get some work experience, see how this stuff works and have an easier time getting a job when they finish college. Those kids chose to do it. It was advertised as unpaid. They signed papers. Those who wanted to do it, it was their choice. If this guy the tweets are about did the same thing, why are we trying to paint it as something it isnt ? If the terms of your job are not to your liking, leave. Its as simple as that. I mean the guy stayed 2 years without pay and know he tries to act like he got duped ? Come on. Would you work even a month without pay?
"Why would I defend it"... *goes on to defend it by downplaying it as not exploitation when it very clearly is*



And considering how all you've done is victim blame, accuse people of trying to organise a mob, and have repeatedly ignored posts calling you out on your bullshit, I will happily say the only one not posting in good faith is you.
 
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Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,903
Arguing a 16 year old should fully understand the workings of labor laws, fair compensation and work place exploitation is a joke and you're a clown if you think exploitation can't occur because you made a "choice".

"It's not exploitation because you can walk away." Thats the stupidest fucking thing I have heard all week.
 
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spineduke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,895
why would i defend it ? Im saying its not exploitation if the guy knew what he's getting into and agreed without anyone forcing him. My last work place had internships. Big, international company. Nobody was being exploited, or enslaved. It helped college kids get some work experience, see how this stuff works and have an easier time getting a job when they finish college. Those kids chose to do it. It was advertised as unpaid. They signed papers. Those who wanted to do it, it was their choice. If this guy the tweets are about did the same thing, why are we trying to paint it as something it isnt ? If the terms of your job are not to your liking, leave. Its as simple as that. I mean the guy stayed 2 years without pay and know he tries to act like he got duped ? Come on. Would you work even a month without pay?
Nobody works internships for 2 years. It's not a comparable experience. Clearly the kid had something to hope for, verbally they promised him something. And he wasn't alone, going by the twitter thread already shared
 

RPGam3r

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Oct 27, 2017
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I mean he was 16. What experience was he bringing to the table to get hired for a paid position? And surely he used the unpaid experience in his career growth to get into the that secure position he has now.
 

Gotdatmoney

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Oct 28, 2017
8,903
I mean he was 16. What experience was he bringing to the table to get hired for a paid position? And surely he used the unpaid experience in his career growth to get into the that secure position he has now.
If he brought no skills worth hiring why would they retain him and use his work for 2 years?
 

Gibson

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Oct 29, 2017
758
I mean he was 16. What experience was he bringing to the table to get hired for a paid position? And surely he used the unpaid experience in his career growth to get into the that secure position he has now.
Er, his work was worthy of being paid for? His TIME was worthy of being paid for?
 
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Nappael

Nappael

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I mean he was 16. What experience was he bringing to the table to get hired for a paid position? And surely he used the unpaid experience in his career growth to get into the that secure position he has now.
We already have multiple developers saying they were not just looking over the shoulders of professionals, but were actively contributing art (one of the animators was tweeting about it), code. and music. In OP's example, this went for 2 entire years.

Their work got into a commercial product that sold millions. That's what they brought to the table.
 

RPGam3r

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,455
If he brought no skills worth hiring why would they retain him and use his work for 2 years?
I agree that two years seems egregious and that he was obviously being sold a false promise. I just disagree with the notion you must always get paid for experience, at times the experience is the payment.
 

RPGam3r

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,455
We already have multiple developers saying they were not just looking over the shoulders of professionals, but were actively contributing art (one of the animators was tweeting about it), code. and music. In OP's example, this went for 2 entire years.

Their work got into a commercial product that sold millions. That's what they brought to the table.
That's what this person brought to the table over time (two years being too long to remain unpaid), that is not what he brought to the table out of the gate.
 

Xharos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,535
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Impressionable kids ? victim blame ? If the guy took an unpaid internship, it means he was working to hone his skills and get experience. I mean, he was a 16 year old without qualifications or work experience. Im guessing he chose this. There is stuff like this everywhere in the world. You're not a victim, for fucks sake. Its something you choose so you can get better options down the line.
Working for free is exploitative by definition. Always. No exceptions.
 

unicornKnight

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,167
Athens, Greece
I think it's still good that they got the opportunity to work and gain valuable experience. 3-6 months is totally ok imo. It seems to me like this is totally what they agreed in the first place, that's why he can't sue and that's why he is using Twitter publicity hoping that they may send him some money now.
 

Bjones

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Oct 30, 2017
5,068
Ooooh the exposure argument. Gotta love it.
Experience is the most valuable asset you can have. Just casually dismissing that argument is very ignorant imo as a software developer myself.

But also if he was told he would get compensated if certain conditions were met then that’s entirely another issue.
 
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Nappael

Nappael

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I think it's still good that they got the opportunity to work and gain valuable experience. 3-6 months is totally ok imo. It seems to me like this is totally what they agreed in the first place, that's why he can't sue and that's why he is using Twitter publicity hoping that they may send him some money now.
- This was 2 years

- We have instances where people were promised payment they never got, and hence not "what they agreed"

- People are still happily ignoring the part where the director shouted at a musician who asked to be paid for his work and then was shouted at and called entited for daring to not work for free. Apparently, this kind of attitude from the director was commonplace.

But sure, continue posting without reading the thread.
 

spineduke

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Oct 25, 2017
4,895
Experience is the most valuable asset you can have. Just casually dismissing that argument is very ignorant imo as a software developer myself.
It's also the worst way to get paid, so you can put a roof over your head and feed yourself. I work in photography, and the number of idiots who propose exposure instead of payment never ends. There are outfits that perpetually run on interns and "experience" - its all a huge con.
 

Mr. Virus

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Oct 27, 2017
552
Dunno if it's been mentioned yet, but in the UK if someone has been in continuous employment at a workplace for 2 years as a contractor then they're granted the same rights as a permanent one. This also includes anyone working overseas for a UK based firm.



Not going into the fairly shitty bits of UK law that only really provide rights to people who have been in a post over 2 years, which is another kettle of fish.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,414
I mean he was 16. What experience was he bringing to the table to get hired for a paid position? And surely he used the unpaid experience in his career growth to get into the that secure position he has now.
I mean, what is this but pure raw ageism? So what if he's 16? How do you know he didn't contribute anything because of that? That's a bit of a leap. Especially since they kept him around for a few years, must have been doing somethin' they liked or why have them there to begin with, if they're so useless and not contributing anything? Why even have them around to begin with, for any amount of time at all? The whole premise is obviously false from the get-go, because no company would ever go for that. They're clearly getting something out of it, from the very beginning... they're just not giving back in return.

I agree that two years seems egregious and that he was obviously being sold a false promise. I just disagree with the notion you must always get paid for experience, at times the experience is the payment.
Which is nonsense, as experience does not pay the bills. You want someone's work, pay them for it. End of. Or is this a minimum wage argument where 16 year-olds don't have any bills they need to worry about, so it's fine and even ignoring the obvious ageism there that these things called university and saving up for one's first flat or whatever just magically disappear into nowhere.

Not that it matters anyway because as we've learned since the OP they were apparently doing that to all kinds of people, so the age argument doesn't even work anyway in this case. They were basically trying to pay as few people as they could, regardless of age or skill level, regardless of what they did or didn't bring to the team, regardless of whether they used their work or not. Hell, as we've learned since, apparently even Toby Fox of Undertale fame did some music for them that at fist they didn't use because apparently he wasn't active in their IRC channel enough and so it was supposedly scrapped... until he hit it big with Undertale, where it was plopped back into the game all of a sudden. Sure didn't seem like they felt that was a worthless contribution anymore, very interesting how quickly these things can change...

But the point being, you want someone to do work for you. Pay. Them. Doesn't matter their age, doesn't matter this, doesn't matter that. If they're desirable enough for you to have around in the first place, if they're doing the same work as other people who would otherwise be paid, and putting in the same hard work and effort as anyone else, as fucking "exposure" or "experience" or whatever doesn't pay bills or put food on the table.

People put in the work. Pay them for it. None of this exposure nonsense. And I'm very aware, before it's brought up, this is far from an isolated incident and this type of thing happens far too often and just like it's not cool here, it's not cool in those other incidents either. But this thread is about this particular situation, which his why we're talking about it and what happens elsewhere doesn't justify this in any way but are just further examples of things that need to change, to nip that one in the bud.
 

Gotdatmoney

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Oct 28, 2017
8,903
I agree that two years seems egregious and that he was obviously being sold a false promise. I just disagree with the notion you must always get paid for experience, at times the experience is the payment.
If companies didn't have to pay anyone they would employ all their workers on the basis of "experience". A 16 year old can go to McDonalds and command a minimum wage. Why on earth should they provide assets for a commercial product for free? Experience is not a payment. Money is a payment. You can get experience and get paid.
 

Wamb0wneD

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Oct 26, 2017
17,952
Experience is the most valuable asset you can have. Just casually dismissing that argument is very ignorant imo as a software developer myself.

But also if he was told he would get compensated if certain conditions were met then that’s entirely another issue.
People should get payed while getting experience. It's always been ridiculous how people are supposed to work for free. Where they hell are they supposed to live in the meantime? How are they going to eat? If you can't afford paying your trainees enough so they can at least get by while working for you, don't hire them.

Experience is valuable, but the fact someone is needing some shouldn't be exploited by people don't value your work. That person doesn't care about your experience, they care about you working for them for free. It's an exploitative practice, plain and simple. Just because you were fine with being exploited doesn't mean everyone should be.
 

ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,142
Experience is the most valuable asset you can have. Just casually dismissing that argument is very ignorant imo as a software developer myself.
As another software developer, I had to seemingly constantly tell others to never, ever, ever, EVER work for free, back when I was still in uni or had just graduated. You give your time to a company, and the company reimburses you with money. Because money is what pays the bills, feeds you. Experience is not a form of payment, it's a mutually beneficial side product of working - you'll get better, which means you'll benefit the company more.

It's fucking incredible to see other workers stan for this shit. The tech industry seems fucked up enough already, let's not intentionally further this garbage.

If you want to do work that won't pay you anything but will benefit you in the future, work on personal software projects and post them online. Websites, public git repositories, whatever. It's considerably more tangible experience than a "worked as an unpaid trainee for 2 years for company X" line on your CV, cause how worthwhile can that experience even be if they didn't even bother paying you for your work?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,414
Experience is the most valuable asset you can have. Just casually dismissing that argument is very ignorant imo as a software developer myself.

But also if he was told he would get compensated if certain conditions were met then that’s entirely another issue.
The more valuable asset? Valuable? It really, really isn't. They don't accept "experience" as currency at the grocery store last time I checked, landlords won't accept "experience" to help you pay for your deposit/rent for your apartment, universities don't tend to accept this "experience" when it comes time to pay tuition and the same with banks for student loans, etc. How could it possibly be the most valuable thing, when it requires you to be fortunate enough to have value in the first place to even make that work. Please.

The most valuable asset? Money, actually being paid for your hard work and effort just like any other fuckin' human being doing a fuckin' job, worthy of at least that fuckin' much, and there ain't any reason in the world you can't be paid while you gain experience. They ain't exclusive.

There's no reason NOT to dismiss it, as it just devalues people for reasons beyond their control, reasons that make no sense and help no one other than those who are deliberately trying to stiff you to begin with, and I don't understand why ANYONE who just sit down and take that or defend others who do, just so they can keep doing it to other people.

You want a person's contributions, you want the fruit of their labors and efforts? Pay them, and experience is not in any reason a substitute, no, because there's no reason you can't do both, no reason worthy of any respect anyways.
 

Biske

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Nov 11, 2017
3,426
As another software developer, I had to seemingly constantly tell others to never, ever, ever, EVER work for free, back when I was still in uni or had just graduated. You give your time to a company, and the company reimburses you with money. Because money is what pays the bills, feeds you. Experience is not a form of payment, it's a mutually beneficial side product of working - you'll get better, which means you'll benefit the company more.

It's fucking incredible to see other workers stan for this shit. The tech industry seems fucked up enough already, let's not intentionally further this garbage.

If you want to do work that won't pay you anything but will benefit you in the future, work on personal software projects and post them online. Websites, public git repositories, whatever. It's considerably more tangible experience than a "worked as an unpaid trainee for 2 years for company X" line on your CV, cause how worthwhile can that experience even be if they didn't even bother paying you for your work?
This all of this. All this shit shows is that your are an explorable tool and you work isby valuable.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,345
UK
Experience is the most valuable asset you can have. Just casually dismissing that argument is very ignorant imo as a software developer myself.

But also if he was told he would get compensated if certain conditions were met then that’s entirely another issue.
He was a 16 year old clearly being exploited for his labour. If experience was as huge an issue as people claim Starbound probably would have turned out to be shit and unsuccessful. They were clearly skilled enough for the tasks they were assigned, made the company a huge amount of cash, and received none of it despite their hard work.

If companies didn't have to pay anyone they would employ all their workers on the basis of "experience". A 16 year old can go to McDonalds and command a minimum wage. Why on earth should they provide assets for a commercial product for free? Experience is not a payment. Money is a payment. You can get experience and get paid.
See the above quote. Many companies will only hire people with experience. It often prevents social mobility as it motivates poorer people to go into low skilled jobs to get a pathetic amount of cash because they need it whilst if you've got a rich family supporting you working for free (whilst still being shit) is something you have the means to survive.