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RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,509
I mean, what is this but pure raw ageism? So what if he's 16? How do you know he didn't contribute anything because of that? That's a bit of a leap. Especially since they kept him around for a few years, must have been doing somethin' they liked or why have them there to begin with, if they're so useless and not contributing anything? Why even have them around to begin with, for any amount of time at all? The whole premise is obviously false from the get-go, because no company would ever go for that. They're clearly getting something out of it, from the very beginning... they're just not giving back in return.


Which is nonsense, as experience does not pay the bills. You want someone's work, pay them for it. End of. Or is this a minimum wage argument where 16 year-olds don't have any bills they need to worry about, so it's fine and even ignoring the obvious ageism there that these things called university and saving up for one's first flat or whatever just magically disappear into nowhere.

Not that it matters anyway because as we've learned since the OP they were apparently doing that to all kinds of people, so the age argument doesn't even work anyway in this case. They were basically trying to pay as few people as they could, regardless of age or skill level, regardless of what they did or didn't bring to the team, regardless of whether they used their work or not. Hell, as we've learned since, apparently even Toby Fox of Undertale fame did some music for them that at fist they didn't use because apparently he wasn't active in their IRC channel enough and so it was supposedly scrapped... until he hit it big with Undertale, where it was plopped back into the game all of a sudden. Sure didn't seem like they felt that was a worthless contribution anymore, very interesting how quickly these things can change...

But the point being, you want someone to do work for you. Pay. Them. Doesn't matter their age, doesn't matter this, doesn't matter that. If they're desirable enough for you to have around in the first place, if they're doing the same work as other people who would otherwise be paid, and putting in the same hard work and effort as anyone else, as fucking "exposure" or "experience" or whatever doesn't pay bills or put food on the table.

People put in the work. Pay them for it. None of this exposure nonsense. And I'm very aware, before it's brought up, this is far from an isolated incident and this type of thing happens far too often and just like it's not cool here, it's not cool in those other incidents either. But this thread is about this particular situation, which his why we're talking about it and what happens elsewhere doesn't justify this in any way but are just further examples of things that need to change, to nip that one in the bud.

He's 16 is a very valid point for the vast majority candidates at that age. Nothing ageist about it they literally have not had a lot of time to gain work experience. I think it's equally a leap to assume they have valuable work experience at the age of 16. Also, I already said that two years is too long, but what you start with as a candidate and what you earn as experience in the position are different topics. I'm not going to entertain conflating the two.

Experience is not nonsense, its literally what you use across the board from getting new jobs and what you do while on those jobs. I agree it doesn't pay the bills, and that you should do these moves to gain experience with caution. I say this regardless of age. As a developer who has done free work for the experience (and have no regrets, although never for two years) I don't agree with your stance at a high level.
 

Batatina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,264
Edinburgh, UK
Can anyone clarify if these practices are still in place at Chucklefish for their current products in development? I would like to know whether to keep my hype about Witchbrook or forget about it.
 

slothrop

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Aug 28, 2019
3,877
USA
It's really too bad these kids did not have more experienced adults or mentors to help them take their shit and go home. If they need your labor you have leverage too -- and make no mistake, this kind of work is valuable labor.

A 16 year old kid is not generally not going to have the confidence or experience to understand this though. A traditional unpaid internship is usually at least modulated by a college advisor in some way, and this doesn't seem to be that. A lot of skilled industries, at least in the US, have moved to paid internships too.
 

Deleted member 7373

Guest
Going to be honest Chucklefish seems like a pretty sketchy company... sounds like they got free labor from like a ton of people lol. I know some people are bringing up that there was no contract... but that also means there is no contract. If any of these people wanted to take a case against them to remove the content they contributed to them they totally could. This all sounds insanely sloppy.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
He's 16 is a very valid point for the vast majority candidates at that age. Nothing ageist about it they literally have not had a lot of time to gain work experience. I think it's equally a leap to assume they have valuable work experience at the age of 16. Also, I already said that two years is too long, but what you start with as a candidate and what you earn as experience in the position are different topics. I'm not going to entertain conflating the two.

Experience is not nonsense, its literally what you use across the board from getting new jobs and what you do while on those jobs. I agree it doesn't pay the bills, and that you should do these moves to gain experience with caution. I say this regardless of age. As a developer who has done free work for the experience (and have no regrets, although never for two years) I don't agree with your stance at a high level.

You don't take the unpaid labor of someone who isn't competent. This is just naive. This kid wasn't delivering coffees here. His age is irrelevant. What business would let a 16 year old with 0 worthwhile skills provide assets to a commercial product? Its fucking fantasy land man. Is that how you would run a company?
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
He's 16 is a very valid point for the vast majority candidates at that age. Nothing ageist about it they literally have not had a lot of time to gain work experience. I think it's equally a leap to assume they have valuable work experience at the age of 16. Also, I already said that two years is too long, but what you start with as a candidate and what you earn as experience in the position are different topics. I'm not going to entertain conflating the two.

Experience is not nonsense, its literally what you use across the board from getting new jobs and what you do while on those jobs. I agree it doesn't pay the bills, and that you should do these moves to gain experience with caution. I say this regardless of age. As a developer who has done free work for the experience (and have no regrets, although never for two years) I don't agree with your stance at a high level.
You don't take the unpaid labor of someone who isn't competent. This is just naive. This kid wasn't delivering coffees here. His age is irrelevant. What business would let a 16 year old with 0 worthwhile skills provide assets to a commercial product? Its fucking fantasy land man.
^^
Like, indeed, obviously a 16 year old is going to have less experience compared to a say a senior employee. That's obvious. That's an argument for paying them a starting wage, a wage that's lower compared to more experienced employees, with the wage going up as they do gain more experience.

What it's not, however, in any way an argument for, is paying them nothing at all. That's a completely different kettle of fish that's not defensible in any way to me. Paying starting employees a starting wage is one thing. Paying them nothing at all is completely different and a deliberate exploitation of their labor.
 

Dancrane212

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,962
Conversation from a dev who worked on some of the writing in Starbound:



Back and forth in text:
-I talked privately about my time with close friends, but I was brought onto Chucklefish and experienced a lot of what folks have been talking about. Starbound's development hurt a lot of people, and some of my closest friends still weigh those scars against their careers.

-Oof <3. Sounds like so many chucklefish employees experienced the same, and it's understandable (but a shame) they all kept silent for a long time.

-There was a lot of isolation happening during it, I only recently found out some of the leads were fighting it, but most of us were just made to feel guilty for not doing more (for free mind)

-Man I'm fucking disappointed in whoever was responsible. I have met so many lovely people from chucklefish, it seemed like a beacon.

-I met some of my closest friends while working there, thankfully a lot of them aren't there any more, but it's still being run by some very unsettling people
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,509
You don't take the unpaid labor of someone who isn't competent. This is just naive. This kid wasn't delivering coffees here. His age is irrelevant. What business would let a 16 year old with 0 worthwhile skills provide assets to a commercial product? Its fucking fantasy land man. Is that how you would run a company?

Competency is not experience.

I didn't say he wasn't delivering anywhere in my comments. And stop focusing on age, I literally said "regardless of age" in the post you quoted.

No, I would not ask a 16 year old to work for me for two years unpaid. Last time I'll say the duration is too long.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,556
I know Phantom88 is already banned, but I want to say that the fact the argument "you know what you sign for/it's was your own decision" does not make everything right, it is the reason there is laws about employment, minimum wage, internship, etc... And the fact some of those law are still not good enough ( and depend on country ), does not mean that everything done in the limit of the law, is moral.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
Competency is not experience.

I didn't say he wasn't delivering anywhere in my comments. And stop focusing on age, I literally said "regardless of age" in the post you quoted.

No, I would not ask a 16 year old to work for me for two years unpaid. Last time I'll say the duration is too long.

The fuck? No one hires you because you just because you have a lot of experience. A job hires you because they believe you can perform the tasks of that position competently. Experience is one such way that they judge that but it isn't the end all be all.

I don't get what is difficult to understand about this. Experience is not payment. Money is payment. No business would take the unpaid labor of someone they know cant perform the task. They take unpaid labour because they know it can do the job and they have 0 expenses. It is bullshit. There is no reason to work for free.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,954
Did the twitter topic starter confirm how many hours a day/week/month etc... they worked in those 2 years?

If they worked from home or in the office for these?
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,509
The fuck? No one hires you because you just because you have a lot of experience. A job hires you because they believe you can perform the tasks of that position competently. Experience is one such way that they judge that but it isn't the end all be all.

I don't get what is difficult to understand about this. Experience is not payment. Money is payment. No business would take the unpaid labor of someone they know cant perform the task. They take unpaid labour because they know it can do the job and they have 0 expenses. It is bullshit. There is no reason to work for free.

They believe you can perform the job based on your experience. It is an important factor, but please feel free to keep downplaying it.

Experience is a long term play, not sure what you don't understand about that.

We disagree.
 

Radline

Member
Oct 28, 2017
921
Downright horrible, and I enjoy Starbound. You really should never work without getting paid back for it. Unpaid labor is scummy.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
They believe you can perform the job based on your experience. It is an important factor, but please feel free to keep downplaying it.

Experience is a long term play, not sure what you don't understand about that.

We disagree.
Why does experience being a long term play make it impossible to get paid while getting said experience? You aren't making an argument for people wanting to get experience here, you are making an argument for said people getting exploited by cheap assholes.
 

scare_crow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,309
Ooooh the exposure argument. Gotta love it.
Love the sarcasm. Always cute.

The kid was 16. I'm sure it was tough not getting paid while living with their parents. I'm not pretending I know all the details, but if they were credited properly, if they got to use contacts for further work, blah blah, than -- again -- I don't feel like this is a thing.

There is exploitation, definitely. I don't think this is a case of it.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,509
Why does experience being a long term play make it impossible to get paid while getting said experience? You aren't making an argument for people wanting to get experience here, you are making an argument for said people getting exploited by cheap assholes.

I didn't say it is impossible. I've gained a ton of experience in both paid and unpaid situations.

I'm making an argument that sometimes you do work to gain experience (or maybe even help others when you don't think a payment is even possible). Not everyone who offers up work without pay is a "cheap asshole". In this case (as I've already stated) the duration is far too long and should have been a warning.
 

Greenpaint

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,889
Unpaid labor leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Somebody should pay and if it's not the company then it should be the government. For example in my country government gives financial aid when you go to study. Financial aid for taking an internship maybe?

If neither company or government is paying then poor people are at severe disadvantage since you have to pay the bills somehow.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,866
Netherlands
I think there is exploitation here, but it's an industrywide exploitation (and sadly not at all confined to the game industry either, though it's certainly amplified in the game industry like everything else relating to terrible worker rights).

It starts with the AAA game companies shirking their responsibilities of educating workers and only hiring people with at least 3000 years of experience, which ripples downwards until the onus of providing the new workers with this required work experience is placed on the companies with the least amount of money and possibility for risk taking. I don't think it's strange that they opt for unpaid interns. And some of these interns accept, because that's the only way to get the work experience required to get invited for the bigger companies. It's not right, but it's not strange.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,396
Man this sucks. I really admired Chucklefish. Hope they put out some sort of a statement and properly address this problem.


I think there is exploitation here, but it's an industrywide exploitation (and sadly not at all confined to the game industry either, though it's certainly amplified in the game industry like everything else relating to terrible worker rights).

It starts with the AAA game companies shirking their responsibilities of educating workers and only hiring people with at least 3000 years of experience, which ripples downwards until the onus of providing the new workers with this required work experience is placed on the companies with the least amount of money and possibility for risk taking. I don't think it's strange that they opt for unpaid interns. And some of these interns accept, because that's the only way to get the work experience required to get invited for the bigger companies. It's not right, but it's not strange.

The inustry needs to be unionized. I can't speak for UK, but the whole "unions bad" bullcrap attitude here in America needs to be fucking eradicated. I don't understand why people insist on looking out for businesses rather than people (i.e. themselves).
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
The more valuable asset? Valuable? It really, really isn't. They don't accept "experience" as currency at the grocery store last time I checked, landlords won't accept "experience" to help you pay for your deposit/rent for your apartment, universities don't tend to accept this "experience" when it comes time to pay tuition and the same with banks for student loans, etc. How could it possibly be the most valuable thing, when it requires you to be fortunate enough to have value in the first place to even make that work. Please.

The most valuable asset? Money, actually being paid for your hard work and effort just like any other fuckin' human being doing a fuckin' job, worthy of at least that fuckin' much, and there ain't any reason in the world you can't be paid while you gain experience. They ain't exclusive.

There's no reason NOT to dismiss it, as it just devalues people for reasons beyond their control, reasons that make no sense and help no one other than those who are deliberately trying to stiff you to begin with, and I don't understand why ANYONE who just sit down and take that or defend others who do, just so they can keep doing it to other people.

You want a person's contributions, you want the fruit of their labors and efforts? Pay them, and experience is not in any reason a substitute, no, because there's no reason you can't do both, no reason worthy of any respect anyways.

For someone looking to make something a career yes experience is the most value asset of your career.
Getting more jobs means getting more money and getting paid more for those jobs.


But also that's just a general statement.. you get into some murky waters hiring kids under 18.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,609
To the people comparing this to an internship.. Did he get college credits?

Because that is a huge difference.
 

chrisypoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,457
Never work for free, kids!
This.

Those saying this isn't exploitation confuse me.
My first job was as a concessions stand and popcorn boy at a theatre making TN minimum wage of 5.15 an hour at 16. You're telling me it's OK for this dev to have been paid less for asset development for a commercial product than I was paid for bagging popcorn? That does not compute to me.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,097
Thats a damn shame. Feel bad for em, I remember when bartwe would stream himself programming the game.

Have a lot of love for Starbound. Seemed like a pretty nice and drama free dev team like at the time.
 

Coricus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,537
OOOOOOPH.

I guess it's a good thing that I feel off the wagon in regards to modding Starbound, then.

. . .Wait, wasn't one of the main devs for Starbound a mod here at one point, or at least verified? What the hell happened to that?
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,138
Gotta say really crappy and should never happen. They basically paid in time/effort to get an education/experience in many ways. Not saying it's right, but that's how it feels a bit.

I probably would have done it too.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,933
I met this person at a convention once, they seemed nice. This situation is awful.

Did the twitter topic starter confirm how many hours a day/week/month etc... they worked in those 2 years?

If they worked from home or in the office for these?
They're from Adelaide so odds are they were working remotely. Most 16 year olds aren't able to move to the UK for work.
 

Exit Music

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,082
I don't know why so many people assume the game being successful affects how much the employees earn, let alone a volunteer. I don't think many game developer employees are paid based on revenue sharing, and certainly not at such a low level whether this was an employee or not.

I do extra work that saves my employer hundreds of thousands of dollars every year and I don't get any extra money for it, because it's my job and part of our contract.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,892
All the people saying this was a good opportunity silent now

Adsoft_direct_local_marketing_automation_kermit.XXX_.jpg

Well, yeah. They slunk back into their holes. Corporate apologists, who excuse abusive behavior, are the absolute worst.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,353
I wonder how prevalent this is across the industry. A friend of mine before mentioned how he interviewed for a position at CDPR back when they were making Witcher 1. It was some 3d art position and he had experience with the Neverwinter Nights engine which I think W1 was built in, but they told him he wouldn't be paid.

It's like these companies know they can always find someone who's passion they can exploit
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Work "for experience" and unpaid/underpaid internships are just different names for worker exploitation. I almost got bamboozled into accepting something like that because I was desperate and to this day I am glad that I didn't. Instead I got a job that adequately compesates me for my time and work.
 

BLASTEROID

Member
Oct 25, 2017
232
1. Unpaid internship is a real thing and there's nothing wrong with it. Especially for someone who is still in high school, this is a huge early leg up to break into a tough to get into industry.

2. "Hundreds of hours" sounds like a lot of free work. "Hundreds of hours over 2 years, MAYBE not so much. This could be someone VOLUNTEERING 1-2 hours a week. Especially as someone with probably no living expenses, working remotely after school....etc.

3. Looks like chucklefish treated at least some development of this game as some FOSS project on GIT. But they actually sold it. That seems wrong.

4. I understand that people will read 16 year old, hundreds of hours, unpaid... that's a bad look. Sounds like chucklefish took advantage of a number of people here. But let's be clear, the resume fodder and experience this kid got is worth far more than any chump change intern payout. Kudos to him for being in a position to spend his time doing something truly good for his career so early on.