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A Difficult Subject (The Jimquisition)

Nov 7, 2017
839
#51
If more games were like Dark Souls and From games I'd understand the many many posts about how From games need to be easier, but since there aren't that many already I don't really see the merit in so many complaints about how a single piece of entertainment media isn't "accessible" for everyone. It doesn't mean they've slighted anyone or hurt anyone. As most people who would defend easy mode not affecting other people's enjoyment would say, "It's just a game."

If they want to put an easy mode in? Sure fine.

On the other hand given people's normal inclination to take a path of least resistance, and the fact that anyone could argue anything is "too hard" or "bad for the game" (the example I always bring up is like BOTW's Durability and people believing it should be "patched") still becomes a circular argument. Too hard for anyone can be too easy for anyone and vice versa. He thinks that people won't be tempted by easy modes, but even in Souls people find the way to break the game or builds to make some encounters easier or get weapons before they're supposed to. Like with BOTW, if there was an unbreakable sword in the game people would go to it because there's no reason "not to" take the most efficient path. I think part of the brilliance of game design and interactive media is making you go out of your way or take on challenges you otherwise wouldn't.

In the end I'll never understand why so many people are so upset about difficulty and video game content to begin with. "Hardcore" gamers should leave people alone who want easy modes, and Easy mode people should (in my opinion) stop thinking that everyone who likes challenging content and likes being catered to in their niche as gatekeeping. I understand that's the point of a forum but I saw people even before I had an account go on many post long rebuttals with people when most people aren't going to change their minds on these things to begin with.

There's plenty of examples (even on this forum) of people being jerkish gatekeepers, sure, but there's clearly an audience for it and they enjoy being catered to, just like weebs like me enjoy anime aesthetics in gaming. I don't really consider it elitist to enjoy something catered to them (like "why are all these anime games anime), but that's a whole different can of worms.

Furi put in an easy mode, and while the game imo is best experienced on difficult I have no reason to shit on the devs for wanting to provide more people a means of experiencing the game. I think at this point people have more of a problem with the conversations surrounding the difficulty/mechanics than the actual question of easy mode itself. I see most the conversations devoted to labeling each other and name calling and I have to wonder how many more threads on this topic will be needed.

I don't like that the video makes it about anyone liking difficult games that are actually catering to their niche audience as "gatekeeping" or "Hoarding" games when there's SO FEW that actually try to cater to this group without bloated numbers and Damage sponges in "hard modes" in other games. I normally agree with everything Jim has to say, but I think there's a ton of nuance being missed in this video, just like it usually is when having a conversation about these topics.

Then the conversation of "this is why monetization" seems really farfetched as well. I'd argue that the Homegenization of a lot of game difficulties and tying everything to "RPG systems" of bloated numbers is why games like Sekiro and From games are so appealing to people, because while yes they have numbers, it's not avatar based difficulty that most games are taking so that you just "Grind" and/or pay money to get more strength. I say this as a huge fan of JRPGs, but shoving numbers into everything for arbitrary gates is some of the weakest game design I've seen, and yet it's becoming even more standard across the industry.

"If you like something you should want to share it" makes for a great bumper sticker, but some people just want to be able to have something "For them" at the end of the day and some media catering to that niche being told that "They need to change because other people don't like it" will naturally set everyone on the defensive. It's just like Jim said, it's a cycle that will continue so long as FromSoft Develops games and hard games have the audacity to be hard, but isn't helped by people reducing both sides of the argument to caricatures of themselves.
Quoted for truth, we all have to do our part to not reduce reasonable people talking ‘bout it to “The Other.”

These are video games, people. They matter when they matter, and they don’t when they don’t. Just stop with the Strawmen and discuss difficulty and accessibility like adults.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,131
Halifax, NS
#55
If only cheats existed today the way they used to, most of that stuff has been watered down and relegated to paid boosters/microtransactions. This really is part of the problem, developers used to include (or would forget to remove) semi-official means to make games as easy or as hard as you wanted, but a lot of it has been stripped bare, or left to modders to try and find a way to implement.

It's no longer as simple as just typing in a word or hitting a combination on your controller.

And while figuring out things like cheatengine isn't super obtuse nowadays, that still leaves console players with few if no options.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,790
#57
I'll get total hate for this but.

Not every game has to be for every player.
I know that we're accustomed to games being a capitalist venture that is trying to reach wide audiences, but it's still a creative industry and if the creative team decides "this is how i want my product to be"... so be it.

Gamers feel entitled to enjoy every single product in any way they want because they're accustomed to feeling like everyone is trying to cater to them.

I'm not saying one should "get good" or something, i just think that (and this argument puts physical accessibility issues aside, because i feel that is a separate, very important subject) not all games need to be for all gamers and folks should feel at peace with that idea. Fromsoft owes their recent success to the creative vision and design decisions of the souls team (as much as I, being an old fromsoft fan dislike that mentality) not in spite of it.

tl;dr - Your mindset as a capitalist consumer has lead to the argument that all games need to be targeted at all audiences and skill levels. Even regular "anti capitalist" commentators cannot see past this consumer mindset.
This is incorrect. Capitalism has nothing to do with the existence of consumers. I am a socialist. I want workers to profit from their labor instead of capitalists. That doesn't mean markets go away, or consumers.

they should be allowed not too
No one is saying they should be jailed or fined lol.

It's a creative work that they're selling. So it is fair game for criticism by consumers and art critics alike.

If you want to make a creative work and not experience critique, then make it privately for yourself. Once you sell it to the public, you invite the criticism.
 
Nov 14, 2017
3,406
#58
If From decided to add "difficulty" options to Sekiro I'd prefer a light touch. Maybe a visual indicator for parrying enemy attacks (like the sword shimmer of Wolf's charge moves) and unique symbols/colors for different types of perilous attacks. These could be integrated into the game as items or skills.
 

Nooblet

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,975
#61
This image below is usually used for political discussions with regards to economics but I think it can be used here to describe how I feel about accessibility. The skill required for one player to overcome a difficulty and feel a sense of accomplishment, is not the same as the skill required for someone else. That someone else doesn't even have to be a disabled person, it's generally the case that older people have slower response time so someone in their 40s may not be as quick to read and respond as someone in their teens or 20s. Accessibility options take care of that.








Just simple things like enemy's unblockables having a larger window to counter, and giving a larger window of opening or making the parry time even more generous leads to accessibility. You are STILL dealing with having to learn the fundamental aspect of the game i.e. parrying and attacking during the window while building a posture bar. THAT is the vision of the developer, and that is where the difficulty comes in from. But as mentioned before for some it might be more difficult than others. Why do you think there is a bell mode in Sekiro? It's for people who find the normal mode easy. The game already HAS two difficulty modes and one isn't affecting the other. What proof is there that if there were an accessibility mode to cater to the people on the other side of this skill the game were to suffer?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,396
#63
This debate is dripping with toxicity, makes me not even want to engage with it at all.

Oh and I know I've just posted in this thread before some smart ass says it.
 
Nov 3, 2017
5,710
#65
I don't have a problem with games lacking options and difficulty settings.
I'm playing Dark Souls now and it's fun for what it is, it's not exactly hard but more deliberate and there is value in forcing players in a certain mindset to have a specific experience.
I also don't have a problem if From decides that they don't give a fuck about that and make an easy mode in their games.
I'm with Jim here, I do play games to have fun.
I'll never get the pride in finishing a game.
Games may be made as challenges to be overcome but the fact that they're designed to be overcome means that there's no real accomplishment in finishing them, after all they're made exactly for that.
No need to feel accomplished in using a tool for its purpose after all.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,114
#68
Though it's appreciated I don't feel that developers should be obliged to put in easier modes.

I'm currently playing Skyrim for the Xth time and I've bumped the difficulty down as I just want to enjoy exploring the game world. For me that's great but I wouldn't have begrudged Bethesda if they hadn't put that option in there. Now, not putting in a Southpaw option is a different matter entirely!

As others have said, you shouldn't have to make every game cater to every gamer. There's plenty of games out there that are too challenging for me so I just don't bother playing them. If that's how the developers want the game to be experienced then that's their prerogative.
 
#69
I'll get total hate for this but.

Not every game has to be for every player.
I know that we're accustomed to games being a capitalist venture that is trying to reach wide audiences, but it's still a creative industry and if the creative team decides "this is how i want my product to be"... so be it.

Gamers feel entitled to enjoy every single product in any way they want because they're accustomed to feeling like everyone is trying to cater to them.

I'm not saying one should "get good" or something, i just think that (and this argument puts physical accessibility issues aside, because i feel that is a separate, very important subject) not all games need to be for all gamers and folks should feel at peace with that idea. Fromsoft owes their recent success to the creative vision and design decisions of the souls team (as much as I, being an old fromsoft fan dislike that mentality) not in spite of it.

tl;dr - Your mindset as a capitalist consumer has lead to the argument that all games need to be targeted at all audiences and skill levels. Even regular "anti capitalist" commentators cannot see past this consumer mindset.
Oh my god, you're so wrong. If anything access is limited in capitalism. You have to pay at least 360 dollars to get in touch with this/these artists'(s) "artistic vision(s)", there is nothing pro-art in that. Nothing pro-capitalist in pointing out how art might gatekeep to particular groups and how that might be problematic. If you study Literature, this is a common debate, especially in modernist literature.

Like, wow, "you're a capitalist pig if you want an easy mode" is the freshest take I've seen in a decade. I need a glass of water.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,108
#70
I enjoyed this one, particularly bringing back The Duke.

I used to be all hardcore all the time, but in some games lately I tend to hit a block, usually at a certain segment or something that makes me want to lower the difficulty if I am allowed to do so. I can brute force my way through but it can sour the experience and it's not like I am lazy or anything, I just want to enjoy the game I am spending time playing.

Of course with games that feature online heavily it's a bit more difficult, like with say Dark Souls, but if the easy mode was relegated to offline I think that would be fine for most people, but then it brings up the question of depriving players of features they want to use. As long as I don't get slaughtered by a novice who has been given the Infinity Sword +20 or something like that in the start of the game it's all gravy for me.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,104
#71
I'm happy that Jim can bring both sides to light in a graceful manner. That said, I'm totally by his side on the sense that you should play your games, that you bought with your hard earned money, however you may want. Why getting upset so much about people making their life easier? I bet most of the people getting "sick" about the possibility of having easier games treat them as a second job and are young enought to have time to master games, but sadly that's not the reality of the whole population. Is like this kind of gamers are really selfish and don't think about anything else than themselves.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
#72
I'll get total hate for this but.

Not every game has to be for every player.
I know that we're accustomed to games being a capitalist venture that is trying to reach wide audiences, but it's still a creative industry and if the creative team decides "this is how i want my product to be"... so be it.

Gamers feel entitled to enjoy every single product in any way they want because they're accustomed to feeling like everyone is trying to cater to them.

I'm not saying one should "get good" or something, i just think that (and this argument puts physical accessibility issues aside, because i feel that is a separate, very important subject) not all games need to be for all gamers and folks should feel at peace with that idea. Fromsoft owes their recent success to the creative vision and design decisions of the souls team (as much as I, being an old fromsoft fan dislike that mentality) not in spite of it.

tl;dr - Your mindset as a capitalist consumer has lead to the argument that all games need to be targeted at all audiences and skill levels. Even regular "anti capitalist" commentators cannot see past this consumer mindset.
Jim said exactly that in the video, he's not arguing Sekiro should have an easy mode, he's just saying that the elitism that some fans of this game have towards others doing things like modding the game to be easier is WAY over the top and excessive and that if FS did decide to put in an easier mode, it wouldn't be the end of the world like some delusional gatekeeping asshats claim it would be. Jim never said at any point in this video that all games should appeal to everyone, in fact he said that games cynically trying to appeal to everyone would make them worse(citing FUSE as an example of a game being worse for trying to chase a broader audience, though I personally thought that game was pretty damn good).

I don't think it's an issue of "entitlement" at all, at least not from average gamers, i'd argue those elitist gatekeepers are the actual entitled ones here since they think all games should be made only for them and nobody else. I'm not a Souls fan because the games are too masochistic for my liking(I do like The Surge though) but i'm not demanding an easy mode, like Jim I just don't care, so you can't call me entitled. Most gamers don't expect all games to be made to appeal to them.

This reminds me of the time some asshole(on Jim's own website no less) attacked me because I exploited a glitch in the new Prey game where you could infinitely duplicate materials which allowed me to craft a ton of Neuromods, which let me get every single skill in the game way before I was supposed to, I had an absolute blast playing the game, but this one asshole was so offended that I "cheated" that it boggled my mind, he acted like I ran over his dog or something, it was beyond creepy how obsessed that guy was with how other people played Prey.

Jim's talk about how "git gud" morphed from a joke to somehow being dead serious reminds me of what happened to the term PC Master Race. Yahtzee originally coined it is a joke but people started taking it way too seriously(I.E. mocking anyone who dares to actually prefer playing multiplatform games on consoles because they don't have thousands of dollars to spend upgrading their PC or buying a new one or they simply prefer using their PC for work), to the point where Yahtzee himself claimed he regretted ever coining the term(specifically in the ZP video on Kingdom Come Deliverance, where he argued the game's obsession with "realism" made it not remotely enjoyable to play, and after he saw a thread on Steam arguing in favor of keeping in glitches that only made the game harder he realized just how many people had badly misinterpreted a phrase he made up as a joke).
 
Oct 30, 2017
4,691
Denmark
#75
When we have so many games with difficulty design choices to pull from like Halo, Cuphead, Celeste and even REmake 2 its kinda silly that every thread about sekiro asks this question.

Have wider parry windows, reduce amount of boss phases, have different enemy placement/attacks, give more healing items but keep damage the same. Even if you only agree with one of those examples it really shouldnt be rocket science.

Unless you want like God Hand dynamic difficulty instead?
I consider Sekiro to be in a different league than RE2 Remake even when attempting that game on hardcore mode. RE2 isn't hard to beat and its design doesn't revolve as much around gitting gud as it does on memorization and finding the best route and making good save points.

In souls games including Sekiro you're always forced to come to a checkpoint with only one path ahead which is to beat the next boss, and that basically takes up the entirety of the game's focus. In RE2 I barely ever saw someone mention "oh man, I can't beat the boss, I keep dying" and I think that communication around how to overcome the challenge itself is part of the whole Souls recipe.

I'm open to accessibility options but if there was an easy mode outright, I certainly would be tempted to use it rather than rage quitting or trying for days, whereas some people will use it because they just want to explore the game's world.

I still find that there should be kinds of games not everyone can play, and while elitism is aggravating to some, I think it's cool to have it so long as it's just that one franchise that completely sticks out from the norm and is infamous for it. I seriously feel an easy mode is a bastardization of the game formula and will ever cheapen anyone's accomplishment because now they beat it on "Normal mode" or "Hard mode". Feels way less brag worthy than "I beat Souls!"
 
Oct 25, 2017
727
#76
Wouldn’t it just be easier to learn the game than get a leg-up at the start with an ‘ez mode’? The game is a lot easier than the Souls games once you learn it’s core concepts . . .
Some people don't have the patience for the trial and error nature of the From Soft games. It's understandable but I agree that this game is a lot easier than the others once you understand it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
55
#77
As Jim said, what is so bad about a developer implementing an optional difficulty that you--the purist--will never ever be forced to play?
I don't think it would change anything within the world of the game itself. However, it'd make a big difference away from the game. The "Souls" games are the only ones where my coworkers all get together to discuss strategies, or share videos. It's the only one where I go online and check out what other people have discovered. Every other game, even the great ones, are disposable experience. I have never said more than a sentence or two to someone about Horizon, God of War, etc. It would be sad if that happened with these games in the future.
 
Mar 15, 2019
114
#78
I don't really remember people explicitly demanding that From make Sekiro easier, more of a "hey it would be nice if an easy mode existed". Of course now there's a bunch of articles and editorials about how the game 'needs' an easy mode but that just feels like an extreme response to the overreaction from fans about even the concept of one being presented. It feels like the conversation started somewhere in the middle and gradually drifted to either side of the extreme.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,487
#79
How long have difficulty modes existed in games? They seem like a pretty common thing in the industry. I would assume anyone that has played games for a reasonable amount of time has played plenty of games with Easy, Normal, and Hard modes at the very least. I would bet that someone who designs video games would probably be well aware of them as well, honestly it's probably one of the earliest design decisions you make when putting together a design document. I would imagine a game designer who is considered "top-tier" would have even greater understanding of difficulty modes and how they affect gameplay just based on their experiences while playing other games, going to school, or on the job training.

With that being said, I bet Miyazaki knows about difficulty modes and I bet he would have put them in Sekiro or Soulsborne games if he wanted them. So yeah, I'm arguing for artist's intent and creator-driven experiences.
 

Nome

Designer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,697
NYC
#81
Jim's talk about how "git gud" morphed from a joke to somehow being dead serious reminds me of what happened to the term PC Master Race. Yahtzee originally coined it is a joke but people started taking it way too seriously(I.E. mocking anyone who dares to actually prefer playing multiplatform games on consoles because they don't have thousands of dollars to spend upgrading their PC or buying a new one or they simply prefer using their PC for work), to the point where Yahtzee himself claimed he regretted ever coining the term(specifically in the ZP video on Kingdom Come Deliverance, where he argued the game's obsession with "realism" made it not remotely enjoyable to play, and after he saw a thread on Steam arguing in favor of keeping in glitches that only made the game harder he realized just how many people had badly misinterpreted a phrase he made up as a joke).
Dota 2 community in a nutshell. A collection of Wacraft 3 engine limitations, bugs, and design oversights that gets misinterpreted as depth.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
#82
I'm not against an easy mode at all, but the simple fact of the matter is FromSoft doesn't want there to be one. That's their decision. That's really all there is to it. They want people to play the game in the way they want to. If you don't like it, well play something else and I guess stick it to the developer by not buying their game.
Jim said exactly that in the video though, Jim's problem is that some fans of the game are so obsessive they even attack people who make the game easier via mods, what's so wrong with that?
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
#83
While I understand the value of options in games, and tend to praise any developer including them, I still can't help but feel a bit of entitlement from some people demanding games too hard for them to have an easy mode.

Like Sekiro is too hard for me, i even did some salty complaining. But ultimately what I do is move on from the game, not feel like it should be tweaked for me personally.

Like, it is an interesting subject in general, and it's easy to come off either as elitist, like I probably did, or entitled like some people did for me, but I do feel like ultimately, it's fine that there exist games that aren't necessarily for everyone.
But Jim said pretty much exactly that in the video, he's not demanding Sekiro have an easy mode, he just said that if From did decide to put one, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
#84
Let developers decide how to make their games and deal with it. If it's not for you, then don't play it. It is really easy. Not everything can and should be for everyone. There is no need to streamline and homogenize games even more.
Jim wasn't saying that though, he's taking aim at people who are so insane they'll criticize someone for using mods to make a game like Sekiro easier. He never once said all games should be for everyone, in fact he said that games trying to cynically appeal to a wider audience makes them worse, but he said if games decide to include accessibility options(like say a colorblind mode) then it's not the end of the world like some elitist dickheads make it out to be.
 
Oct 25, 2017
592
#85
I'm not against an easy mode at all, but the simple fact of the matter is FromSoft doesn't want there to be one. That's their decision. That's really all there is to it. They want people to play the game in the way they want to. If you don't like it, well play something else and I guess stick it to the developer by not buying their game.
FromSoft does not want an easy mode, therefore we can’t complain and have to suck it up. Likewise, if a developer wishes to release their game as an Epic Store exclusive, as an example. Well, we should just deal with it. That's their decision. That's really all there is to it.

The holy developer is above all criticism. We mustn't. We cannot.

In all seriousness, yes - we should and can absolutely criticize developers for stuff like this. Arguing against an easy mode is just gatekeeping. The argument in Jim's video is totally on point.
 
Nov 10, 2017
77
#86
Using Devil May Cry 5 as an example of difficulty done right doesn't work for me. The hard mode is locked behind completing the game, and the normal difficulty doesn't force you to use any of the systems. You can pretty much spam your way through it. I don't like 'stylish action games' that make me set my own challenge. That's ok, game is not for me. I want a game that's hard that encourages me to get better. Acting like I don't count as an audience because I need to 'get good at difficulty settings' is really dumb.
 

Lyng

Writer at Joypad.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,341
#88
This is incorrect. Capitalism has nothing to do with the existence of consumers. I am a socialist. I want workers to profit from their labor instead of capitalists. That doesn't mean markets go away, or consumers.



No one is saying they should be jailed or fined lol.

It's a creative work that they're selling. So it is fair game for criticism by consumers and art critics alike.

If you want to make a creative work and not experience critique, then make it privately for yourself. Once you sell it to the public, you invite the criticism.
I agree but once that criticism ends up getting repeated over and over and over again it turns into some entitled nonsense.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,504
#90
What I think is interesting about this debate is that the focus is on Fromsoft games in particular. There are plenty of difficult and great games out there that do not spark this kind of reaction, so what's so special about these ones?
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,410
#91
Jim wasn't saying that though, he's taking aim at people who are so insane they'll criticize someone for using mods to make a game like Sekiro easier. He never once said all games should be for everyone, in fact he said that games trying to cynically appeal to a wider audience makes them worse, but he said if games decide to include accessibility options(like say a colorblind mode) then it's not the end of the world like some elitist dickheads make it out to be.
Yes, he is right in that case.
What I think is interesting about this debate is that the focus is on Fromsoft games in particular. There are plenty of difficult and great games out there that do not spark this kind of reaction, so what's so special about these ones?
Because they have become mainstream/widely known games.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
#92
I’d say you’re on the ball.

I respect that some people are earnest in their desire for accessibility options in games.

But it’s clear to anyone taking a step back at the kind of arguments and rhetoric used in defending the demand for “easy modes” that “accessibility” is mostly an excuse.

Be honest with yourselves, guys. You feel left out that a super hard game series EVERYBODY loves is too hard to enjoy, so you want to both deride a vocal group of crappy purists to feel better about being left out, and campaign to make it accessible enough for you that you won’t be left out of the party in the future.

Obviously not everyone is arguing in bad faith, and the people who shout Git Gud like it makes them better then others are total A-holes, but let’s not pretend more people are using it like that then those who derid the culture triumphantly.

Play with cheats, watch a play through, or do anything you want to experience the game the way you like, that perfectly fine. Ask for more options for more people to enjoy it, including difficulty, that’s fine.

But reconsider the reasons you are doing this for. Understand the way you feel about this, and grow past a petty desire to just be in an “in-group” that you most likely recognize is already problematic. It’s not going to make you any happier to get this fed up over a popular game series when there are so many others that are amazing in their own way, and so many ways to experience it already.

Otherwise, you’re just going to keep getting in arguments, get further radicalized to garbage up discorse, and start fights over not being able to play a video game.
I don't think many people like that actually exist, i've seen more people bitching about gamers demanding easy modes then i've seen people actually demanding easy modes.

I don't feel left out, i've never been a big From fan(well I did like that Kinect Heavy Armor game they did)so I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do think the elitism is over the top. I think the people that rage at imaginary boogeyman demanding easy modes need to take a good hard look at themselves and ask why they are so obsessed with how other people play games.

I think this attitude stems from when World of Warcraft raid bosses got heavily nerfed back in Wrath of the Lich King and many felt it made the game worse, so they are afraid that will happen to other games. What they fail to realize is that MMO's like WoW are a completely different ballgame then primarily single-player games like From's output, in WoW nerfing the content does negatively impact people who enjoy the challenge but you can't say that about primarily single-player games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,111
#93
Completely agree with Jim here. The hypocrisy regarding creators/developers division being immune to criticism becomes so apparent when you compare it to any other criticism that it is crazy that it is truly used as a real argument
 
Dec 21, 2017
7,279
#94
Everything he says in this vid made sense to me. Even the opening sentences , Sekiro doesn't need an easy mode, also Sekiro doesn't not need an easy mode ring true. The only time I have problem with cheaters in games is when they take that shit into online multiplayer and effect my experience. If folks mod games, use a game genie, or buy infinite ammo that's their prerogative.
 
Oct 27, 2017
546
#95
I largely don't care if FROM or any developer wants to implement an easy or assist mode in otherwise difficult games, but I do take issue with some folks demanding it as a right. If Dark Souls 4, Bloodborne 2, or Sekiro 2 is announced to have assist options, I'll never think about it again after the announcement. If one of those games comes out and doesn't have assist options or an easy mode, I'm sure the discussion will resume as it did during the release of their past games, and there will be dipshits on one side policing others' methods for having fun and yelling 'GIT GUD' over and over again, and I'm sure there will be others likening FROM to being ableist for not including it.

TL;DR easy/assist modes are fine, but so is a developer's decision not to include them, and getting angry at one party for expressing a desire (and modding a PC game accordingly) is just as silly as demanding a developer cater their game to everyone.
 
Oct 27, 2017
428
#96
With games like Seikiro I don't buy them b/c they are too hard. Instead I just watch a good let's play of them. I wonder how much people like me could be potential sales for the game?

While games are art they are also a business. I'm sure the devs of hard games could find a way to keep their vision but be more inclusive of players who don't want as hardcore of an experience.

Edit: At the end of the day though it's the game dev's choice how they want to make their game.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
#98
If more games were like Dark Souls and From games I'd understand the many many posts about how From games need to be easier, but since there aren't that many already I don't really see the merit in so many complaints about how a single piece of entertainment media isn't "accessible" for everyone. It doesn't mean they've slighted anyone or hurt anyone. As most people who would defend easy mode not affecting other people's enjoyment would say, "It's just a game."

If they want to put an easy mode in? Sure fine.

On the other hand given people's normal inclination to take a path of least resistance, and the fact that anyone could argue anything is "too hard" or "bad for the game" (the example I always bring up is like BOTW's Durability and people believing it should be "patched") still becomes a circular argument. Too hard for anyone can be too easy for anyone and vice versa. He thinks that people won't be tempted by easy modes, but even in Souls people find the way to break the game or builds to make some encounters easier or get weapons before they're supposed to. Like with BOTW, if there was an unbreakable sword in the game people would go to it because there's no reason "not to" take the most efficient path. I think part of the brilliance of game design and interactive media is making you go out of your way or take on challenges you otherwise wouldn't.

In the end I'll never understand why so many people are so upset about difficulty and video game content to begin with. "Hardcore" gamers should leave people alone who want easy modes, and Easy mode people should (in my opinion) stop thinking that everyone who likes challenging content and likes being catered to in their niche as gatekeeping. I understand that's the point of a forum but I saw people even before I had an account go on many post long rebuttals with people when most people aren't going to change their minds on these things to begin with.

There's plenty of examples (even on this forum) of people being jerkish gatekeepers, sure, but there's clearly an audience for it and they enjoy being catered to, just like weebs like me enjoy anime aesthetics in gaming. I don't really consider it elitist to enjoy something catered to them (like "why are all these anime games anime), but that's a whole different can of worms.

Furi put in an easy mode, and while the game imo is best experienced on difficult I have no reason to shit on the devs for wanting to provide more people a means of experiencing the game. I think at this point people have more of a problem with the conversations surrounding the difficulty/mechanics than the actual question of easy mode itself. I see most the conversations devoted to labeling each other and name calling and I have to wonder how many more threads on this topic will be needed.

I don't like that the video makes it about anyone liking difficult games that are actually catering to their niche audience as "gatekeeping" or "Hoarding" games when there's SO FEW that actually try to cater to this group without bloated numbers and Damage sponges in "hard modes" in other games. I normally agree with everything Jim has to say, but I think there's a ton of nuance being missed in this video, just like it usually is when having a conversation about these topics.

Then the conversation of "this is why monetization" seems really farfetched as well. I'd argue that the Homegenization of a lot of game difficulties and tying everything to "RPG systems" of bloated numbers is why games like Sekiro and From games are so appealing to people, because while yes they have numbers, it's not avatar based difficulty that most games are taking so that you just "Grind" and/or pay money to get more strength. I say this as a huge fan of JRPGs, but shoving numbers into everything for arbitrary gates is some of the weakest game design I've seen, and yet it's becoming even more standard across the industry.

"If you like something you should want to share it" makes for a great bumper sticker, but some people just want to be able to have something "For them" at the end of the day and some media catering to that niche being told that "They need to change because other people don't like it" will naturally set everyone on the defensive. It's just like Jim said, it's a cycle that will continue so long as FromSoft Develops games and hard games have the audacity to be hard, but isn't helped by people reducing both sides of the argument to caricatures of themselves.
I think you completely misinterpreted what Jim was actually saying, he never said that ALL gamers that like a challenge are a elitist gatekeepers, Jim was taking aim at a very specific group of people that attack people for using cheats and mods to make games easier, he was not attacking people like you.

It's not farfetched to me at all seeing how shitty big publishers are. I think it's only people on one side who are truly being asshats and that's the elitist assholes, I had one guy rage against me because I chose to exploit a glitch in that new Prey game(the infinite recycling glitch that allowed you to infinitely duplicate materials)those are the types of people Jim hates, not people like you. You need to stop taking every video like this as a personal attack.

I don't think difficulties are being "homogenized" at all, that sounds like a really silly argument. I liked how Shadow of the Tomb Raider had different difficulty sliders for things like exploration, combat and puzzles, i'd hardly call that homogeneous since most games just have binary "easy, normal and hard" difficulties.

I think it is you that is missing the nuance in this video, Jim clearly stated he would personally never use an easy mode in the From games and he's not demanding one.


So what if people take he path of least resistance? Why should that bother you so much? Besides there's a simple way to fix that so that people are less tempted to switch to a lower difficulty-make it so that once you pick your difficulty at the start of the game, you can't lower it without starting a new game, that way if things get tough for you you'll be less tempted to switch to a lower difficulty.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,019
#99
I'm hoping they patch in a over 40's mode for Apex Legends as I'm sure the young whipper-snappers are way to good for me due to faster reflexes and more time to practise.

Being able to filter out these young'uns would make that easier for me.

Would that count as an easy mode?
Well...yeah. If there was some way to ensure that, then it sounds like a perfectly fine idea. Plenty of multiplayer games already have beginner-only playlists.

Edit: I misunderstood. Yes that would be a good idea if they could actually do something like that.
 
Mar 29, 2018
1,215
What would be a well implemented easy mode for Sekiro to the people that want it?
The game has a bell you can ring that buffs enemies, and in NG+ you can choose to debuff yourself in combat a little by losing a certain item.

Why not have another bell, equally well hidden but perhaps before any main bosses, that debuffs enemies and/or an object that buffs the player

They can make an easy mode that still fits in their design style and lore, honestly