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A Difficult Subject (The Jimquisition)

Mar 25, 2019
66
In what way are they about more than difficulty without citing any component that is interchangeable to any other games? The difficulty (through being relatively unforgiving) is their signature, along with the more measured pace to combat.



See I’m fine with that as long as it doesn’t infect the core development space of a game. The problem is that overtime it’s very hard to keep those things separate.

When Demon Souls came out it struck such a cord because it disregarded all of the conventional wisdom that decades of game design ‘best practice’ homogenization has said was the only way to do things. It specifically did things that the culture at the time said you should not do.

If From games get an easier difficulty mode then it should come closer to release with a completely different group of devs. Otherwise the ‘carter for everyone’ approach will start to infect the core design principles over time, and that’s just not a good thing for maintaining the ethos of their games.
The unique style of environmental storytelling, the striking art style, the breathtaking monster and boss designs, the intricate world-building? The fact that you think the difficulty is the ONLY unique thing about From games is truly sad and frankly an insult to the developers who worked hard on those games as it sells them short.

I think From could do it without it "infecting" anything.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
So it's wrong to think ot's okay to make hard games for people who like hard games?
Never said anything remotely like that, please do try to practice your reading comprehension in the future. There's nothing wrong with hard games, but I do have a problem with elitist assholes that think ALL games should be made ONLY for them and nobody else.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,913
The unique style of environmental storytelling, the striking art style, the breathtaking monster and boss designs, the intricate world-building? The fact that you think the difficulty is the ONLY unique thing about From games is truly sad and frankly an insult to the developers who worked hard on those games as it sells them short.

I think From could do it without it "infecting" anything.
Everything you just stated exists in other games though? Lol at that line about it being frankly sad etc, jump on the hyperbole train some more. I mean at best ‘unique style of environmental storytelling’ but we’ve seen other games do that too XD

Fromsofts Souls game didn’t break out because of anything you just mentioned without the design decisions made that facilitates the difficulty. Which btw the world design and tone echoes.

Try again my friend.

Never said anything remotely like that, please do try to practice your reading comprehension in the future. There's nothing wrong with hard games, but I do have a problem with elitist assholes that think ALL games should be made ONLY for them and nobody else.
I’m not sure but I don’t think anyone in this thread has said that though? Isn’t that simply the other side of ‘all games should be playable for everyone’?
 
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Oct 24, 2017
2,459
Adding here something else about the thread:

- Cuphead actually makes you play the game on Normal if you want the ending, idk if it changed after I finished it but that's how I played it.
- Celeste's accessibility mode is not actually an 'accessibility mode', might sound a hot-take but take it as you will.



There are 5-6 threads on the same argument, many calling out FROM specifically over the same issue. There are publications doing the same. That actually is forcing someone. "FROM needs to respect their players" when the dev actually does.

If that's not forcing...
That's not forcing.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
You'll play what they make or you won't play and you'll move on. How simple is that? We've been getting Souls games for 10 years and they haven't put an easy mode in yet. It's pretty clear that From has no intention of making their games easier. People enjoy the games for what they are. If you don't like it, just keep it moving. There's no need to badmouth people who enjoy the games. It's out of line, actually.
Well you're not psychic, you don't know with 100% certainty that they never ever will put one in any of their future games(or current ones).

Also in the future please try to practice at least some form of reading comprehension before blindly getting overly defensive, because at no point did I say anything about all Souls fans being assholes, just a vocal minority of gamers who act liked spoiled brats who can't handle someone else getting more enjoyment out of a game by using cheats/mods or playing on a lower difficulty. So no i'm not "badmouthing" people just for enjoying Souls games, just for being gatekeeping assholes who don't want "normies" playing their precious games for fear that it will taint them(or some stupid bullshit like that) I think it's out of line for you to make disingenuous statements like that.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
Everything you just stated exists in other games though? Lol at that line about it being frankly sad etc, jump on the hyperbole train some more.

Fromsofts Souls game didn’t break out because of anything you just mentioned without the design decisions made that facilitates the difficulty. Which btw the world design and tone echoes.
Um no it does not, and there are other games which have the Souls style of difficulty, some of which I do enjoy like The Surge(primarily because I find sci-fi settings more interesting then fantasy ones).

Also maybe you should improve on your grammar before badmouthing other people, you know the saying, he who lives in a glass house should not throw stones yadda yadda.

You have ZERO proof that the difficulty was the only reason those games got popular, implying that is frankly a huge insult to the developers, who i'm sure are not happy about their games only getting boiled down to their difficulty and nothing else.

You're the only one I see spouting hyperbole here.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,856
It is, with all due respect.

The difference is, that they don't budge to those requests and do whatever they want.
If someone forces you to do something, you can't decide to "not budge". You are being forced, after all.

If you decide not to do what others are telling would be better for your product, then you are simply not reacting to criticism or requests. It's silly to frame, even harsh, criticism as "forcing" the subjects of that criticism to do exactly what the article/post entails.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
I'm gonna repeat the sentiment: Sekiro is the easiest FROM game from the bunch (counting all SoulsBorneKiro) people who struggle parrying in Sekiro would suffer even worse in Bloodborne. Sekiro is spam L1, when red symbol appears jump, and then attack. It has a training mode to learn the basics, it has an incredible number of tutorial text to the point of being annoying. The accessibility is there, it's just that people don't want to approach it.

No one is actually gatekeeping, if FROM wants to add difficulty modes, it shouldn't be a problem if they want to.

But I do have a problem with people forcing something from a developer. And I underlined and bolded that, because this is the 5-6th thread on the same subject, and this is the 6th game of the same nature, so we have to count back every single thread made on the same way. Forcing something might lead to a bad product, or something half-assed.

Same side, the ones who enjoy the difficulty shouldn't force a dev from not adding difficulties if they want to.

I still believe this is a problem with FOMO, and some people have to accept that some games aren't made for them. Like clothes, you can't get everything fit you, and sometimes you have to fix it yourself (modding).
Whether it's the easiest game is your opinion, not a cold hard fact. For some people it's harder because of it's lack of flexibility in terms of allowing multiple play-styles like other From games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,913
Um no it does not, and there are other games which have the Souls style of difficulty, some of which I do enjoy like The Surge(primarily because I find sci-fi settings more interesting then fantasy ones).

Also maybe you should improve on your grammar before badmouthing other people, you know the saying, he who lives in a glass house should not throw stones yadda yadda.

You have ZERO proof that the difficulty was the only reason those games got popular, implying that is frankly a huge insult to the developers, who i'm sure are not happy about their games only getting boiled down to their difficulty and nothing else.

You're the only one I see spouting hyperbole here.
Well for what it’s worth I’m o on my phone atm so shrug.

I actually bring up how the associative elements of souls game feed into the game design but I can see that we’re not going to get anywhere in talking with you. Have a good day. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the distinctions I’m drawing, I never said that difficulty was in fact the only sole element, rather it is the primarily distinguishing one. More people did ‘souls like’ games in atmosphere or content than they did in gameplay, prior to demons souls.

Bringing up grammar XD
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
Man, I just start those games on easy lol. I love Yakuza but that's mostly despite the combat, not because of it.

I hate it when games offer you ways to make it easier or even give you cheat codes to mess around with and then punish you for actually using them. The most annoying one in recent years has definitely been RDR2. They give you fun cheats to play around with... But you can't save your game if you used them. Like... Seriously?
RDR2 has cheats? I had no clue, I understand disabling achievements like the GTA games, but not allowing saving does seem like kind of a dick move.
 
Oct 30, 2017
10,185
i just realized that the title of the video is a double meaning

because not only is it a contentious subject that is difficult to have a conversation about, but the conversation itself is about difficulty modes in games

so the word difficult in the title has more than one meaning
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
I’m not sure but I don’t think anyone in this thread has said that though? Isn’t that simply the other side of ‘all games should be playable for everyone’?


Well for what it’s worth I’m o on my phone atm so shrug.

I actually bring up how the associative elements of souls game feed into the game design but I can see that we’re not going to get anywhere in talking with you. Have a good day.
You're only bowing out because you don't want to admit that your argument is absolute nonsense, classic troll tactic. Never said anything about all games being playable for everyone, I see your reading comprehension has not improved much.

I'll just leave this here to prove how wrong you are:https://twitter.com/JimSterling/status/1118118699955888129
 
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Oct 27, 2017
5,913
You're only bowing out because you don't want to admit that your argument is absolute nonsense, classic troll tactic. Never said anything about all games being playable for everyone, I see your reading comprehension has not improved much.

I'll just leave this here to prove how wrong you are:https://twitter.com/JimSterling/status/1118118699955888129
....That comment wasn’t addressed to you at all with what we were actively talking about in what you responded to...? You literally dodged my reply to reply to an older point... ok I guess?

But reguardless you’re strawmanning since I never said that the only thing to enjoy is the difficulty

In fact I explicitly said that there are other things to enjoy in from games so uh. If you’d like to continue then actually respond to my prior post instead of going on a tangent response?
 
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Mar 25, 2019
66
....That comment wasn’t addressed to you at all with what we were actively talking about in what you responded to...? You literally dodged my reply to reply to an older point... ok I guess?

But reguardless you’re strawmanning since I never said that the only thing to enjoy is the difficulty

In fact I explicitly said that there are other things to enjoy in from games so uh. If you’d like to continue then actually respond to my prior post instead of going on a tangent response?
Nah you're the one who's strawmanning here by boiling these games down only to difficulty and nothing else.


You're the only one going on a tangent here(nobody cares if you're posting from your phone or not), I did respond, you just had no real answer to my post other then "you're wrong cause I said so" which is not much of a response at all.

Also thought you said you were "bowing out", so much for that. Trolls like you can never stick to your guns, you always have to get in the last word.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,913
Nah you're the one who's strawmanning here by boiling these games down only to difficulty and nothing else.


You're the only one going on a tangent here(nobody cares if you're posting from your phone or not), I did respond, you just had no real answer to my post other then "you're wrong cause I said so" which is not much of a response at all.

Also thought you said you were "bowing out", so much for that. Trolls like you can never stick to your guns, you always have to get in the last word.
Ok. Let’s reset:


If you’re down for actually continuing the conversation instead of insulting endlessly, I am down for that? Again I did not say that difficulty is the only reason that from games stood out and became successful, rather that the difficulty (through design) was the most prominent reason, and that most of if not all of the unique tangential elements of their games that people find appealing are in place to feed into the game design or when taken as discreet elements existed in other games prior to souls to a greater degree than souls brand of design difficulty.

If you look at reviews and threads from back in the day you can see how things like the atmosphere and world were lauded as complimentary to the gameplay approach.

I’ve even said that I’d be fine with a lower difficulty option if it’s handled by other people, and the core designers do not concern themselves with it.

In deciding how Froms DESIGN should evolve, I don’t believe that altering its signature beat is the path to take and am weary of the kind of seeping that would occur if the core team was actively including lowered difficulty options from the onset because of how that could effect design over time. I’ve also proposed a solution.

And one of my favourite PS2 games was Ribbit King, hardly a hardcore experience. I’m still curious as to how the mirror of ‘all games should be made for everyone’ isn’t ‘all games should be hard’.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
2,320
If From decided to add "difficulty" options to Sekiro I'd prefer a light touch. Maybe a visual indicator for parrying enemy attacks (like the sword shimmer of Wolf's charge moves) and unique symbols/colors for different types of perilous attacks. These could be integrated into the game as items or skills.
Great idea.

I'd also voucher for an Easy Auto option like the ones that debuted with *gasp* Devil May Cry *gasp* and have been part of Platinum's action games forever.
Hardcore games don't have to lack accessible options.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,623
Look man, if yelling into the void wasn't a fun past time, resetEra wouldn't exist :P
Well, can't really disagree with that.

Never said anything remotely like that, please do try to practice your reading comprehension in the future. There's nothing wrong with hard games, but I do have a problem with elitist assholes that think ALL games should be made ONLY for them and nobody else.
And in the conversation surrounding these games practically no one is saying that. Especially here. Reading comprehension indeed.

Celeste was purposely designed to be hard. It was never designed around the Assist Mode at all; that was added after the fact. Hell, the developer even actively went out of their way to encourage people to play the game without it and only use it if they had to.
And with that inclusion the relinquish any control over how it's used. Their suggestion is just that. The game is what they've built and will be used accordingly regardless of what they think the best experience is.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
Ok. Let’s reset:


If you’re down for actually continuing the conversation instead of insulting endlessly, I am down for that? Again I did not say that difficulty is the only reason that from games stood out and became successful, rather that the difficulty (through design) was the most prominent reason, and that most of if not all of the unique tangential elements of their games that people find appealing are in place to feed into the game design or when taken as discreet elements existed in other games prior to souls to a greater degree than souls brand of design difficulty.

If you look at reviews and threads from back in the day you can see how things like the atmosphere and world were lauded as complimentary to the gameplay approach.

I’ve even said that I’d be fine with a lower difficulty option if it’s handled by other people, and the core designers do not concern themselves with it.

In deciding how Froms DESIGN should evolve, I don’t believe that altering its signature beat is the path to take and am weary of the kind of seeping that would occur if the core team was actively including lowered difficulty options from the onset because of how that could effect design over time. I’ve also proposed a solution.

And one of my favourite PS2 games was Ribbit King, hardly a hardcore experience. I’m still curious as to how the mirror of ‘all games should be made for everyone’ isn’t ‘all games should be hard’.
Again you're inventing things in your head that were not actually said by anyone.

Not insulting you, just calling it like I see it, as i've seen this exact argument from trolls on Reddit that only bring it up to argue in bad faith.


There's plenty of reviews that don't say that difficulty is the defining feature of those games, and for you to reduce them to that is reductive and frankly disrespectful to the devs.
 
Mar 25, 2019
66
Well, can't really disagree with that.



And in the conversation surrounding these games practically no one is saying that. Especially here. Reading comprehension indeed.



And with that inclusion the relinquish any control over how it's used. Their suggestion is just that. The game is what they've built and will be used accordingly regardless of what they think the best experience is.
You're the one that needs reading comprehension, people may not be saying that on here, but they are saying it on Reddit and on social media, you'd have to be willfully ignorant or blind to not see it on there.
 
it shouldn't come as a surprise that an enthusiast gaming forum is full of elitist gatekeeping assholes. even some of the mods are complete shitheels on this topic.
It's actually kind of weird, but according to open critic, significantly less review outlets reviewed Sekiro when compared to other equally popular games like DMC5 and RE2. It's almost like there are publications out there that won't do a review because they don't like the difficulty and would fear the backlash. I've seen a few "I don't like Sekiro, but thats okay" or "Sekiro just isn't for me" and won't have a review score. Interesting.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,172
Finland
It's actually kind of weird, but according to open critic, significantly less review outlets reviewed Sekiro when compared to other equally popular games like DMC5 and RE2. It's almost like there are publications out there that won't do a review because they don't like the difficulty and would fear the backlash. I've seen a few "I don't like Sekiro, but thats okay" or "Sekiro just isn't for me" and won't have a review score. Interesting.
You could be reading too much into it, Sekiro and Division 2 have the same amount of reviews and Division 2 was even released bit earlier. Division 2 is a huge blockbuster unlike Sekiro, even though Sekiro definitely has sold really well too. In MC Sekiro has 14 more reviews.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,284
In these threads, you're either

1. an elitist gatekeeping asshole who hates disabled people

or

2. an entitled scrub who is too lazy/incompetent to learn how to play a game right

No good has come from these threads. Everyone has decided how they feel about the subject already and it just turns into people from both sides yelling at each other.
 
Sep 19, 2018
386
One of the biggest points I learned in Jim’s video is that we probably shouldn’t harass people who use cheat codes or mods to make games easier. If people make their own easy mode, the purists still get their pure experience.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,913
Again you're inventing things in your head that were not actually said by anyone.

Not insulting you, just calling it like I see it, as i've seen this exact argument from trolls on Reddit that only bring it up to argue in bad faith.


There's plenty of reviews that don't say that difficulty is the defining feature of those games, and for you to reduce them to that is reductive and frankly disrespectful to the devs.
I specifically say that difficulty is the most prominent not the defining feature. The fact that games without FROMS signature approach to Asthetic are considered Soulsborns copies where as others are not is proof enough of this concept. Basically the formula for from is to have difficulty in the raw knobs and balance, and to use an overall slower pace to combat in an open world that does not so readily hold the players hand all culminating in a specific kind of difficulty. That doesn’t mean that the sheer challenge is the only appreciative element, but you can have a lovecraftian style FP investigation game that is not considers a Soulsbourn genre game where as Surge or whatnot is considered that. Simply having a soulsbourn like asthetic, world building, or an open world does not a soulsborn make.Or at least to a lesser degree than the elements you cited prior, which is exactly the point i was making earlier when I pointed out that the things you cited are in fact quite interchangeable in comparison.

What do you want from this conversation aside to be angry and to invent fictional foes to fight that proclaim every game must be hard.

One of the biggest points I learned in Jim’s video is that we probably shouldn’t harass people who use cheat codes or mods to make games easier. If people make their own easy mode, the purists still get their pure experience.
I completely agree.
 
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Mar 29, 2018
1,217
I felt like my character was lagging the whole time I played those games.

But my point with that comment is that I'm not some "couldn't get past the first boss lol" player like that idiot was saying. It's just not a real argument.
Hey sorry to bring up this conversation again, but i thought this exchange in the Sekiro OT was pretty interesting

It would be a damn shame to miss these games over something that's been addressed
 
Oct 27, 2017
889
In these threads, you're either

1. an elitist gatekeeping asshole who hates disabled people

or

2. an entitled scrub who is too lazy/incompetent to learn how to play a game right

No good has come from these threads. Everyone has decided how they feel about the subject already and it just turns into people from both sides yelling at each other.
no it's good to call out the elitist assholes
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,916
One of the biggest points I learned in Jim’s video is that we probably shouldn’t harass people who use cheat codes or mods to make games easier. If people make their own easy mode, the purists still get their pure experience.
Yep, I'm fine with people using mods/trainers since they have no baring on the direction or balancing of the game in development. Hopefully other people realize this too.