-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
A discussion on female character tropes in Octopath Traveler
- Thread starter Deleted member 4976
- Start date
Like if you wanna complain about the role of women in Octopath complain about Cyrus story where the biggest reason he goes on his journey is that one of his female students wants him and is jealous that the princess also wants him so she makes up a lie out of petty jealousy.
Actually, yes, this right here is a great point too. Not the best portrayal of women in this instance.
While I don't want to defend that thought, it is almost valid if your only knowledge of the story is from the article due to its wording meant to fit their argument.
Naturally, everyone is allowed their opinions and I don't dismiss the article's author. I just personally feel that they are writing with the wrong tone. It is not written in a way to open a discussion. It is an accusatory rant based on a very small second of the game. Starting by saying that the game sucks is an immediate red flag for me.
I heavily encourage you to play the game yourself and formulate your opinion from it but that is up to you.
OP
OP
Not yet. I'll be picking it up, hopefully soon. I got sidetracked by some other lengthy rpgs (namely FFVI, Blood and Wine).
I saw the article while browsing the sexualized character designs, read it and thought it was an interesting article worth discussing.
This is a good example of the subjective nature of reality lol
I played in Japanese so I'm not sure how much the English localization changes things but even in Japanese the writing is extremely predictable and dependent on tropes to the point where I was finishing character's lines. Primrose's back story/story is no exception and I think the writer of the article has a point there. The unnecessary embellishment and misrepresentation of the other women's stories and gameplay specs serves no purpose and I think the article would have been better without it.
The author is right about some things but her shotgun approach might not be the best. Primrose's story does lean heavily on well-tread tropes and personally her story resolution felt wanting especially compared to the others partially because it has been done so many times before but at least regarding the other three women, it's not as bad as the article can make it seem.
Last edited:
I missed the chance to comment on this before, but even without having played the game the article feels like it has been written in bad faith
There's a discussion to be had about sexism in videogames, that's undeniable, moreso in JRPGs, but having read about Octopath here a lot, it just feels like an inflamatory piece of text (and some replies here above me seem to validate my feeling about it)
There's a discussion to be had about sexism in videogames, that's undeniable, moreso in JRPGs, but having read about Octopath here a lot, it just feels like an inflamatory piece of text (and some replies here above me seem to validate my feeling about it)
Yeah, now THIS is a problem. worse, I don't think the princess was actually in love with him if my interpretation of a sidequest in postgame is correct. So Therese was jealous for nothing.
I only played the first demo so far, and thought that the shit Primrose deals just for a shot at revenge seems very much not worth it. This is only first female jrpg protagonist I can think of that's a sex worker, and I think her chapter 1 scenario could've been just as effective with less rapey overtones.
I haven't played any of the other paths at all, but her situation seems to be unique to that path, which I think makes stick out more. At least the other ladies have very different backstories, so it looks to me more like they were going for something with Primrose and just went too blunt.
I haven't played any of the other paths at all, but her situation seems to be unique to that path, which I think makes stick out more. At least the other ladies have very different backstories, so it looks to me more like they were going for something with Primrose and just went too blunt.
Again, I have.
Looking at this thread, I don't think the article didn't open a discussion.
Cyrus' reason in pretty weak in general. It's a frickin library book. Dude is basically the library detective from seinfeld:
Honestly, the article didn't open a discussion, I would credit that to the users who tried to share more moderate thoughts on the subject the article completely bungled to the discussion that is now happening in this thread.
I think the only place this has a point is with Primrose. All the other female main characters are strong characters who selflessly help other people of their own accord and aren't defined by their looks at all.
Sorry. Did not realize that.
Considering how much the thread is against the article, it seems less like a discussion to me and more of a backlash
The Primrose stuff was around the level of writing quality I could expect from a story about forced sex work in a modern JRPG. It was awful. And this article brought up an implied rape angle that definitely makes that stuff worse.
I don't think the other women in this game have arcs anywhere near as bad, but there is an element of male-centric nature to their arcs that bothers me. Tressa might be the exception, because the journal is basically a Mcguffin to push her pre-existing desire to explore.
I don't think the other women in this game have arcs anywhere near as bad, but there is an element of male-centric nature to their arcs that bothers me. Tressa might be the exception, because the journal is basically a Mcguffin to push her pre-existing desire to explore.
This is what you said:
You're saying that she deliberately misses the point, and that it's intentional.
And to take something at face value means to accept something as is, aka, not making things up about why she wrote it. Not inject intentions (like saying she willfully misses the point).
These are your own words, don't go all "I'm sorry you feel that way" when I'm literally quoting you. Don't. Own up to your words instead of trying to twist it as me misinterpreting you.
It's quite annoying really. Like rape is something that disgusts me, and it's not something I want to read or hear about. I had an eye on this game and was planning on getting it at some point. I can say now I won't. Maybe this whole thing is a minor point in an otherwise good game. But I just straight up dislike coming across the subject in things that are designed to entertain me.
It's like instead of writing a meaningful and tragic backstory, we'll just take the lazy approach and use rape as our method of delivery. It doesn't matter if the people commiting these acts are seen and portrayed as evil. By having rape as such a common trope, it normalises as something that happens. And desensitises the act of rape itself in real world situations. It's what leads to comments in sport or whatever such as 'my team raped your team' in a large victory. That comment should be acceptable, but it and similar things are heard quite often because rape is used often enough in media that's consumed that people are just used to it and think nothing of the words
It was extremely dumb. I was so happy when Odette laughed his dumb ass out of the building.
I always enjoy a revenge story like Primrose's, but I suppose the trope of strong women being femme fatales or using their sexuality to their advantage gets tiring. I do think the father-daughter dynamics presented in the game are often uncomfortably obsessive, and the scene mentioned in the article is particularly fucked up and unnecessarily included in the game.
There are some weaker nitpicky points in the article I don't really see eye to eye on but overall it makes a good point about the game.
Women just don't seem to get it too good in gaming - unless you're Samus of course.
There are some weaker nitpicky points in the article I don't really see eye to eye on but overall it makes a good point about the game.
Women just don't seem to get it too good in gaming - unless you're Samus of course.
For my part, I see some valid points in the article, but they're largely hidden in a tangle of misinformation and oh-so-caustic zingers. I don't think all of it is purposely meant to misinform the reader, like when the author says:
"In fact, the trauma of the place that taught her to dance appears completely divorced from all the fun she has using her sexuality as her main weapon and contribution to the team."
Spoilers, but I think perhaps they didn't get far enough into the game to see the flashback scenes that show Primrose didn't learn to dance at the tavern where she's employed at the beginning of the game. Her love for her craft started at a young age, and ultimately served to help her go undercover there to hunt the assassins. The author doesn't seem to grasp the fact that the character's love for dance doesn't stem from the dirty work she had to do to please her "Master." And if she did play the game up to that point, that's baffling to me, because it's a major part of her story. And the reason a lot of posters here are dismissing parts of this article is because the article is missing more of these contextual details that would take the edge off of many of her major points.
"In fact, the trauma of the place that taught her to dance appears completely divorced from all the fun she has using her sexuality as her main weapon and contribution to the team."
Spoilers, but I think perhaps they didn't get far enough into the game to see the flashback scenes that show Primrose didn't learn to dance at the tavern where she's employed at the beginning of the game. Her love for her craft started at a young age, and ultimately served to help her go undercover there to hunt the assassins. The author doesn't seem to grasp the fact that the character's love for dance doesn't stem from the dirty work she had to do to please her "Master." And if she did play the game up to that point, that's baffling to me, because it's a major part of her story. And the reason a lot of posters here are dismissing parts of this article is because the article is missing more of these contextual details that would take the edge off of many of her major points.
Last edited:
But I wasn't projecting any intent on the writer's part. I was saying what my takeaway from the writer was (i.e. this feels like a poorly written article, as if it does so and so, and so and so). It's my opinion of the article as a whole, and what it comes off to me. I have not said the writer had any malice when she wrote it- I am discussing the points she made, and how I feel she didn''t make them badly, because of how they come off. I have also noted in this very thread certain points she has made which I agree with. It's me discussing the article and its writing. This thread is meant to discuss the article and its writing.
Also, you keep telling me to not project intent, but you keep doing that to me. First you implied I was dismissing the writer out of hand because of her gender. I said I was not, and apologized if that was the impression I gave to you. That was it. There was no ulterior motive or hidden meaning there. Then, when i did that, you added an emphasis on a word for no reason, and then tried to, yet again, project intent on me as if I am twisting your words to make it seem like you are misinterpreting me. I am not. I am flat out saying "I am sorry you got that from my words". That's it. The onus there is on my words, not on you. I'll flat out reword it to be more acceptable: I am sorry my original wording was ambiguous enough to miscommunicate my intent and point.
Yeah, like you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to maybe begin approaching a portrayal of a woman in games that isn't problematic inherently in some way or the other (even Samus's portrayal has the stigma from Other M)
I don't think that either, but I could see how someone might interpret the princess' dialogue/actions that way, and it's clearly how Therese takes it.
Regarding Cyrus (endgame spoilers)
Isn't part of the reason they're taken so seriously because the chairman and secretary want to use the book to obtain evil powers and Cyrus being out of their way (until he decided to look for the book himself) beneficial to them?
It doesn't help that Cyrus has that harem protagonist trait of denseness.
I just started the game (15 hours in and just starting...) but I can already see the problems with Primerose's story, although people are right to point out how cringy Cyrus's whole deal was. I just don't think an old school JRPG is able to handle the topic of rape with the subtlety and nuance that it needs. I mean, I think the dialogue and the nature of storytelling in these games is inherently simple and trying to tackle complex, real-world issues just never feels right. I do think that the writers' hearts were in the right place though.
And what I definitely don't agree with is that the entire game is drenched in sexism. I've encountered so many different personalities and sidestories in the game so far. Sure I might find some princess jealously accusing Cyrus a little uncomfortable, but the game is in no way saying that all women are like that. It is ok to have women (and men) be both strong and weak, good and evil, selfish and selfless. It is ok to have women (and men) act stereotypically as long as their are counter examples. Not all women are jealous harpies, but it's ok to have one woman in a cast of dozens who is.
And what I definitely don't agree with is that the entire game is drenched in sexism. I've encountered so many different personalities and sidestories in the game so far. Sure I might find some princess jealously accusing Cyrus a little uncomfortable, but the game is in no way saying that all women are like that. It is ok to have women (and men) be both strong and weak, good and evil, selfish and selfless. It is ok to have women (and men) act stereotypically as long as their are counter examples. Not all women are jealous harpies, but it's ok to have one woman in a cast of dozens who is.
I think overall the article misrepresents a lot to push its own agenda, which is a shame because it brings up legitimately good points and issues. Coming off as inflammatory can be a literary device used to succinctly get your opinion across, but I feel it's done in bad taste when ideally, you want these issues to be known by the very people you're driving away. It can lead to preaching only to the choir, along with giving many people who haven't played the game on what Octopath Traveler is like. I implore people to make their own judgments of the content from the free eShop demo instead of denouncing the game solely from this article.
Appreciate the reboot on this one. My overall take is that the article itself is too wide reaching, placing too much under the lense of sexism, which is a bit problematic given that some points made are not accurate to the game. Conversely though, I do think it's reasonable to say that it's too often we see tropes for women involving rape, etc., like Primrose, or relegated as support characters like Ophilia.
I think Octopath attempts to have a good message about the dangers of patriarchal society, hypocrisy, etc., but is sometimes hamstrung by uncessesary ham handedness, and abbreviated storytelling. Not always quite coming full circle on some issues presented in the game during Primrose's narrative. I do think the game is a cut above what a lot of games even try to do, and certainly in the jrpg realm when it comes to storytelling and type of content addessed, but perhaps next time they should rethink the tropes it utilizes to craft their story/message.
I think Octopath attempts to have a good message about the dangers of patriarchal society, hypocrisy, etc., but is sometimes hamstrung by uncessesary ham handedness, and abbreviated storytelling. Not always quite coming full circle on some issues presented in the game during Primrose's narrative. I do think the game is a cut above what a lot of games even try to do, and certainly in the jrpg realm when it comes to storytelling and type of content addessed, but perhaps next time they should rethink the tropes it utilizes to craft their story/message.
I'll accept this. Your wording just seemed very particular and reminiscent of what people do when they think they're sly and want to dismiss something.
People will say, "oh but they're being so logical and measured" but if you actually read what they say, it's rude af and non-commital.
Case in point: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
So when you wrote "I'm sorry you feel that way", it didn't seem genuine to me.
But I'll take you at face value (wink wink) and accept your apology. Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from.
My overall point is, Women may find some aspects of Octopath Traveller to be questionable. And that's fine. We should allow them to voice it without throwing the book at them for not expressing it perfectly. Because in the end, it'll help diversify our perspectives. I think we can all agree on that.
He's so dumb in matters of attraction. The princess part and him leaving in disgrace was like, man this is a dumb way to kick off a story. But then through chapter 2 it is super apparent through banter he is so fucking dense that like, it's almost just like the writers wanted to make him a giant attractive idiot. At least the women in the party basically are like, "you're so fucking dumb."
This article is founded completely on falsehoods to serve its narrative, in the process doing it a severe injustice, because there are no shortage of examples to employ without molding the narrative to prey upon a recently released title within (but not usually adherent to) a troubled genre.
I can think of perishingly few female characters who are sexualized or infantalized in Octopath. Even Primrose's concept art is positively tame and tasteful compared to the fanservice permeating other JRPGs, and although the fact that her dancer outfit didn't change when embarking on her quest was disappointing, it's as understandable as the fact that job sprites weren't given overworld animations—the process would simply have required an excess of spritework. Moreover, to characterize "nearly every one of its female characters" as underdoing abuse is staggeringly inaccurate. It's mostly relegated to several characters within Primrose's storyline, which deals with sex trafficking.
Is this writer unaware of FFVi's own portrayal of sexual abuse in Celes' storyline, or the impications of Terra's mental enslavement? Octopath's treatment of its male and female characters is generally equitable, with male protagonists' physical attractiveness being frequently remarked upon.
The author has at once gravely misunderstood Primrose's motivations and situation, while also disingenuously reducing her entire character and arc to her beauty and abuse—where is the positive feminism here? Let alone while evoking the genuinely misogynistic minefield that is HBO's Game of Thrones.
Why should Primrose be wholly reduced to the trauma she's endured? Can she have no personality outside of that? Primrose has few "lighthearted moments" that relate to her experience in sex trafficking. Sexuality, in general, sure, but they're not inextricable topics, and that is unfortunately one aspect of life Primrose has no shortage of canniness in—and the travelers' banter scenes are often about teaching one another from their individual expertise.
Where are these countless other instances? The scene with the priest talking about his deceased daughter is meant to be a viscerally disgusting, spine-crawling moment that makes the player all the more eager to dismantle this trafficking organization.
Octopath's world-building couldn't be further from laziness, and the world isn't half as "rosy" when one takes the time to read dialogue and backstories.
Untrue. Arianne's entire storyline revolves around her desire to regain her life outside of her abuse, to find a place externally and internally where it no longer defines her.
Complete fabrication. Leon never focuses on any such thing with Tressa. Ophilia's father made an innocent remark. H'aanit's attractiveness is only commented on by Ophilia, and is an example of a positive LGBT depiction.
Almost every protagonist has a mentor or partner who affects them in some manner—including the males—and no, they are not all paternal, and certainly not all defining. Ophilia's father is only of passing relevance to her personal journey. H'aanit is constantly portrayed as the more maturely disciplined one in contrast to her hunting mentor, teaching him as much as vice-versa.
This game mechanic could have been a sexist flaw if it was done poorly, or ever detracted from the characters' agency or competency, but it doesn't—made more apparent by the game's isolation of the protagonists in-story. Primrose, Ophilia, and Tressa single-handedly vanquish combat-hardened criminals. H'aanit bests fabled megafauna.
I can think of perishingly few female characters who are sexualized or infantalized in Octopath. Even Primrose's concept art is positively tame and tasteful compared to the fanservice permeating other JRPGs, and although the fact that her dancer outfit didn't change when embarking on her quest was disappointing, it's as understandable as the fact that job sprites weren't given overworld animations—the process would simply have required an excess of spritework. Moreover, to characterize "nearly every one of its female characters" as underdoing abuse is staggeringly inaccurate. It's mostly relegated to several characters within Primrose's storyline, which deals with sex trafficking.
Is this writer unaware of FFVi's own portrayal of sexual abuse in Celes' storyline, or the impications of Terra's mental enslavement? Octopath's treatment of its male and female characters is generally equitable, with male protagonists' physical attractiveness being frequently remarked upon.
The author has at once gravely misunderstood Primrose's motivations and situation, while also disingenuously reducing her entire character and arc to her beauty and abuse—where is the positive feminism here? Let alone while evoking the genuinely misogynistic minefield that is HBO's Game of Thrones.
Why should Primrose be wholly reduced to the trauma she's endured? Can she have no personality outside of that? Primrose has few "lighthearted moments" that relate to her experience in sex trafficking. Sexuality, in general, sure, but they're not inextricable topics, and that is unfortunately one aspect of life Primrose has no shortage of canniness in—and the travelers' banter scenes are often about teaching one another from their individual expertise.
Where are these countless other instances? The scene with the priest talking about his deceased daughter is meant to be a viscerally disgusting, spine-crawling moment that makes the player all the more eager to dismantle this trafficking organization.
Octopath's world-building couldn't be further from laziness, and the world isn't half as "rosy" when one takes the time to read dialogue and backstories.
Untrue. Arianne's entire storyline revolves around her desire to regain her life outside of her abuse, to find a place externally and internally where it no longer defines her.
Complete fabrication. Leon never focuses on any such thing with Tressa. Ophilia's father made an innocent remark. H'aanit's attractiveness is only commented on by Ophilia, and is an example of a positive LGBT depiction.
Almost every protagonist has a mentor or partner who affects them in some manner—including the males—and no, they are not all paternal, and certainly not all defining. Ophilia's father is only of passing relevance to her personal journey. H'aanit is constantly portrayed as the more maturely disciplined one in contrast to her hunting mentor, teaching him as much as vice-versa.
This game mechanic could have been a sexist flaw if it was done poorly, or ever detracted from the characters' agency or competency, but it doesn't—made more apparent by the game's isolation of the protagonists in-story. Primrose, Ophilia, and Tressa single-handedly vanquish combat-hardened criminals. H'aanit bests fabled megafauna.
It seems to me that the author saw the questionable content in Primrose's story and decided to use it as an excuse to attack the entire game.
I'm not gonna go into the Primrose stuff (as there's definitely a discussion to be had about the problematic nature of the troupes that are utilized there) but the author's complaints aimed at Tressa, Ophilia, and H'aanit's stories are terribly misleading and disingenuous.
I'm not gonna go into the Primrose stuff (as there's definitely a discussion to be had about the problematic nature of the troupes that are utilized there) but the author's complaints aimed at Tressa, Ophilia, and H'aanit's stories are terribly misleading and disingenuous.
I completely get it. I honestly dislike weaselly apologies a lot myself, and thank you for pointing out where my own was not acceptable. It did come off as though I was pushing the onus on to you. I did not mean that. It is just something I will have to be careful with going forward haha.
I do agree with this. My intent is only to discuss the points being raised. I do feel a lot of them are muddying the message. That said, I also acknowledge that as a man, what I feel may not be the same as what many women feel, and what women feel deserves far more consideration here.
Yea I don't think Ophelia/Lianna's relationship with their father is normal at all. They constantly praise him, refer to him as "Your Excellency" instead of dad/father, and of course
Considering this is not the only weird daddy/daughter relationship in the game, nor is Primrose's, it seems awfully fetishized.
Also for Primrose,
Lianna goes batshit insane when he passes away. Ok, death of a parent is difficult, but it seems he was aging and the fact that she went to such desperate, insane lengths to try and revive him is ridiculous.
Also for Primrose,
the enemy was at home the entire time, was it necessary to spend years as a sex slave just to get a passing whiff of 1/3 of her father's killers?
She refers to all high ups in the church as Your Excellency. It's a sign of respect. She calls him father when it makes sense story wise.
Lianna goes batshit insane when he passes away. Ok, death of a parent is difficult, but it seems he was aging and the fact that she went to such desperate, insane lengths to try and revive him is ridiculous.
Do the post game dungeon. Wont say anymore.
I seriously do not get how you came to this conclusion. Like this is mad weird.
Im not sure what happened in the past thread, I just read the article now.
I have to say its really poorly written. A lot of this stuff feels like cherry picking things out of context, being purposefully untruthful and focusing on perceived worst case scenarios. A lot of the criticisms are really poorly constructed and disingenuous at best. Im all for looking at things more critically, but this article isnt what people should be rallying around. Most of the women in the game (I have yet to finish) appear to me to be very independent and having a goal revolve around a male doesnt seem to be an issue to me (because heaven forbid their have relationships with people), they are still the independent and powerful forces taking this journey. Classes can also be matched to your preference, all the men can be dancers if you wanted to, the women can be warriors and scholars, I think it gives a lot of options on how you want to play. Octopath seems to be very good in terms of not making characters just about sexualization, Tressa is my favorite right now (and not a child, she is 18 and the youngest of the cast, which really is a breath of fresh air considering trends in Japan) and I dont think it ever lingers on how she is pretty and her clothing is definitely not sexualized imo. Honestly im not sure what to make of this article
I have to say its really poorly written. A lot of this stuff feels like cherry picking things out of context, being purposefully untruthful and focusing on perceived worst case scenarios. A lot of the criticisms are really poorly constructed and disingenuous at best. Im all for looking at things more critically, but this article isnt what people should be rallying around. Most of the women in the game (I have yet to finish) appear to me to be very independent and having a goal revolve around a male doesnt seem to be an issue to me (because heaven forbid their have relationships with people), they are still the independent and powerful forces taking this journey. Classes can also be matched to your preference, all the men can be dancers if you wanted to, the women can be warriors and scholars, I think it gives a lot of options on how you want to play. Octopath seems to be very good in terms of not making characters just about sexualization, Tressa is my favorite right now (and not a child, she is 18 and the youngest of the cast, which really is a breath of fresh air considering trends in Japan) and I dont think it ever lingers on how she is pretty and her clothing is definitely not sexualized imo. Honestly im not sure what to make of this article
They refer to all senior clergy as "Your Excellency." They're both initiates (acolytes? something) and have to observe the hierarchy while they go about their duties. And as for Primrose,
yes, presumably she went into hiding afterwards, since Simeon had apparently been actively looking for her before coming across her in Noblecourt, which was her first time setting foot there since Lord Geoffrey's murder.
Wait Ophilia is queer? Interesting....
I watched chapter 1 of Primrose's story. To me it just makes no logical sense why she'd voluntarily become involved in sex work to find her dad's killers, seems there's better ways to go about it; the whole thing comes off as the femme fatal sexy spy trope. Which is kinda lazy writing. At least she's got agency, but that choice is nonsensical imo
I watched chapter 1 of Primrose's story. To me it just makes no logical sense why she'd voluntarily become involved in sex work to find her dad's killers, seems there's better ways to go about it; the whole thing comes off as the femme fatal sexy spy trope. Which is kinda lazy writing. At least she's got agency, but that choice is nonsensical imo
I get this, and this would make sense in a public setting in front of other people, but in casual, personal conversations? Maybe it's just because of how one dimensional the characters are but the level of adoration seems quite exaggerated.
Also I did consider that Primrose purposely went into hiding after the assassination, but
she did just waltz right into her hometown without much consideration for keeping a low profile after she killed the first crow, so clearly that sort of patience didn't require becoming a whore.
You're reaching.
They call him father behind closed doors. When they're carrying out their professional and religious duties they call him "Your Excellency" because they have a high respect for him and the role he holds. This isn't really uncommon in media depicting a medieval times-like setting, from what I've experienced.
Ophilia Chapter 4
Mattias isn't just some random dude. He's someone who holds a high position in the church and has been grooming a cult for years. It makes sense that he would be able to take advantage of someone grieving over the death of a parent, especially if they had a really positive relationship like Lianna and Ophilia did with theirs. His death was sudden too. He told Ophilia he was going to die soon, but Lianna thought he had more time even if he was slowing down. They're pretty young as well. Not everyone who loses a parent at their age gets over it so quickly. Some people go down the wrong path in such situations, even if the parent was relatively old.
It doesn't sound weird that someone would try to use magic to revive someone. In medieval times some people attempted to use magic like alchemy so it doesn't feel out of place, especially in a world where it exist.
Lianna doesn't go batshit insane, she's just grieving and Mattias is definitely not telling everyone the whole truth about reviving a dark god. There's some level of hypnotism/manipulation/magic charisma at play, which seems obvious when after Ophilia's last boss battle the townspeople wake up and are really confused about what happened. Lianna even seems to know what she's doing is wrong on some level when she unlocks Ophilia's cell, as if silently requesting Ophilia to save her.
It doesn't sound weird that someone would try to use magic to revive someone. In medieval times some people attempted to use magic like alchemy so it doesn't feel out of place, especially in a world where it exist.
Lianna doesn't go batshit insane, she's just grieving and Mattias is definitely not telling everyone the whole truth about reviving a dark god. There's some level of hypnotism/manipulation/magic charisma at play, which seems obvious when after Ophilia's last boss battle the townspeople wake up and are really confused about what happened. Lianna even seems to know what she's doing is wrong on some level when she unlocks Ophilia's cell, as if silently requesting Ophilia to save her.
I think to describe the relationship as fetishized is so wrong.
iirc, Ophilia calls her adoptive father "your excelency" even in private except for a couple of times. She does seem more distant than Lianna who will happily call him father in private.
Edit: I took it as 2 things, 1- a sign of respect, 2- shows how she is still not confortable enough with him to be more casual. She basically only opens up to Lianna and it shows.
Edit: I took it as 2 things, 1- a sign of respect, 2- shows how she is still not confortable enough with him to be more casual. She basically only opens up to Lianna and it shows.
Last edited:
Primrose's whole story is about her obsession for revenge. I don't remember the exact words but she states in a monologue that nothing is too degrading for her to find her father's killers. She stays as a sex worker for so long because all she cares about is finding one of the killers who frequents the place. It's not that far-fetched for a revenge story even if the end of it kinda falls apart. I actually like the epilogue of her story where she wonders what she'll do next at her father's grave, because she spends her whole story dodging the question. With her father avenged she has nothing left because she threw away everything else.
Primrose's story:
Ophilia is also implied to be suffering from a case of imposter syndrome as the result of her being orphaned as a young child.
Idk i just read your whole post and I'm like "yeah... but is that really necessary?"
Like it'd be one thing if they ran the brothel or something and it could be some revenge arc like O Ren in Kill Bill(which has some issues too but whatever) But this just makes little sense. It's like saying "i saw those guy go to starbucks once. I'm gonna go work at starbucks for a year until he comes in for coffee again." like.... ok? Seems like a dumb waste of time
Ophilia is more formal than Lianna and initially more guarded. Josef isn't her birth father after all and even if she sees him as that figure (eventually) in relation to his position and that knowledge in hand it's not weird. Even if you think it's odd to call it a fetish is joke worthy.
It's really not. She was an orphan and took a long time to open up. Not your real dad, high position in the church demanding respect, in general a more formal girl. Nothing really sticks out there.
Chapter 3 an 4 really went off the fucking rails there. I super do not like what they did there and it does actively damage what they set up in chapters 1 and 2.