A good friend might lose his job because he was caught motioning for me to look at a woman at work, which made her uncomfortable

Yerba_Sutra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,363
Appalachia
That may be, but in the end I will be responding to behaviour that is both unprofessional and making me feel uncomfortable. I will not be doing a root cause analysis to determine if the behaviour is rooted in poor social skills or misogyny.
Yeah in cases like this intent is only half of the equation. You may not mean to make someone feel uncomfortable, but you still made them feel that way, and it's usually a good idea to use the experience to practice some introspection or start a conversation that can lead to growth.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
7,248
Portland, OR
I get the feeling OP/sympathizers would be singing a different tune if it were them being ogled by some gay coworkers, despite it being literally the same thing. I'm not even saying this from an overt homophobia angle, either. Receiving unwanted advances or objectification sucks and doling that shit out is the worst. Don't be that person.

If you need to ask if something is crossing a line it probably crosses a line. Staring in public is rude. Being a creep is being a creep regardless of circumstance. Don't perv on people, at least not in public, and if you somehow still are going to, keep it to yourself.
The problem is that the people sympathizing with OP lack the self awareness to actually understand what it would feel like, and end up saying "I dont think that would bother me"
 

iliketopaint_93

Use of alt account
Member
Sep 3, 2018
597
I'll respond to these and then I think I'll leave it at that because I'm not sure I know how to clarify my points ITT anymore right now.

If you don't like people making assumptions about you, don't turn right around and make assumptions about them.

I'm not assuming you're too dumb to reach that conclusion. I'm assuming you're too bigoted to agree with it.
Ooomph, ya got me.

I dunno, if you think I'm a bigot, maybe just prove it or try another approach in this discussion? Or I guess I should just get in line and always comply with any judgment about my character, receipts or not, from someone on a messageboard who doesn't know me irl who seems to wants to be in a position of lecturing me on ethics whether it's earned/deserved or not?


Nah.

Context doesn't matter when it comes to bigotry or misogyny. He didn't know any better, is no excuse. If somebody said "well Black people DO tend to be more lazy" I'd still say fuck you just the same as somebody that suggested that it's ok to give numbers to women in the work place because you're socially awkward and don't know any better.
Again, when did I defend bigotry. And why do you think that poor social skills are always indicative of bigotry? I'm really fascinated by this. Do you think someone who's, say, noticeably autistic or has another form of mental illness and is bad at reading social cues and emotional intelligence is always a bigot?


Now, granted, I'm not a woman. But that seems like that's still being framed as male experience. Am I wrong?
I guess my perspective is more masculine than feminine since I haven't lived as a woman, even though I'm not a very masculine person. I'd like to think I'm a mix of both, though, and that it informs my perspective.

Yeah let me stop you right there. There is no "on one hand" in what is being described in the OP.

His friend harassed a woman at work by gawking at her, whether intentional or not.

"both sides" isn't applicable in this context.
When did I defend his friend? My very first post ITT from second one was making fun of someone like that.

That may be, but in the end I will be responding to behaviour that is both unprofessional and making me feel uncomfortable. I will not be doing a root cause analysis to determine if the behaviour is rooted in poor social skills or misogyny.
I think it's possible to have life experiences that make you more aware of what those behaviors are, but I think it can also be subjective and not always grounded in hard justice/truth every time, which makes it a tricky subject. It doesn't seem fair to me that someone should be fired for a job they are qualified to do simply for not having sharp emotional intelligence, or for appearing kinda creepy, or for having weird or quirky behavior that isn't even hateful and/or discriminatory. It's tricky because it can become a question of not just "should I be allowed to fire someone for subtle behavior that I feel is problematic" but "how can it be factually determined when subtly weird behavior in someone is or isn't indicative of bigotry vs stemming from something else?" It is challenging and I honestly don't know how it would be determined precisely on a consistent basis, and I'm usually skeptical of anyone who says they know how to.
 
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aevanhoe

Member
Aug 28, 2018
1,120
I don't even know how anyone couldn't see why describing a woman with a "hot number" is bad and deserves a warning in a job place (or everywhere even if there's now arnings involved). Treat women like humans, not objects, Era.
This is slightly off-topic and I actually agree with most people here, but this I find wrong. I often use “he’s a 10” or “she’s a 10” to describe someone really great in some skill or area of life (mostly illustration and art, since this is my thing). It’s a language thing I often see in movies and online to describe some quality is as good as it can be. I don’t use it for looks, but a phrase “she’s a 10” or “he’s a 10” just sounds like “he/she is hot” (based on my taste, in my opinion, etc.) to me. I would never even think that’s equating a human being to a number. Objectifying people is wrong and it happens constantly, especially with women - which is what every decent human being must fight. But I think making a big deal when someone says “a person is 10” is focusing on the surface, trivializing the problem and, quite frankly, missing the whole point of treating humans with decency.
 
Oct 27, 2017
311
I don't think this is a problem necessarily, but it can still be subjective to some degree and not always grounded in justice/truth, which makes it a tricky subject. But I don't think it seems fair that someone should be fired for a job they are qualified to do simply for not having sharp emotional intelligence, or for appearing kinda creepy, for having weird or quirky behavior that isn't even hateful and/or discriminatory. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think we’re on the same page. I chose the word ‘respond’ on purpose. I’m comfortable with giving direct feedback and would do so if I don’t feel threatened and feel that someone is more likely awkward than malicious. HR would be a next step when feedback doesn’t lead to better behaviour.
 

compo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
Why is this thread still alive? Also:

I think it's possible to have life experiences that make you more aware of what those behaviors are, but I think it can also be subjective sometimes and not always grounded in hard justice/truth every time, which makes it a tricky subject. It doesn't seem fair to me that someone should be fired for a job they are qualified to do simply for not having sharp emotional intelligence, or for appearing kinda creepy, or for having weird or quirky behavior that isn't even hateful and/or discriminatory. It can become a question of not just "should I be allowed to fire someone for subtle behavior that I feel is problematic" but "how can it be factually determine when subtly weird behavior in someone is or isn't indicative of a bigotry or is stemming from something else?" It is challenging and I honestly don't know how it can be determined precisely on a consistent basis, and I'm not entirely trustful of anyone who says they can, which might be a personal problem on my end, I'm not sure.
Dude, these hypothetical situations you keep creating all reek of bad faith arguments. I'm socially awkward as fuck and have worked in a few female majority offices, and I've never had the issue you've described where a stray glance threatened to get me fired. You would have to demonstrate a pattern of staring at people like a weird ass in order for people to even start talking about it being a problem. And even if it is the case that you have a staring problem, then in the few female majority offices I worked at, I'm confident that the manager would first talk to you about not staring at people before they just threw you out on the streets.

This hypothetical office with a quick trigger finger for firing people that gave the wrong glance either doesn't exist, or is such an outlier that it's not worth arguing over.
 

iliketopaint_93

Use of alt account
Member
Sep 3, 2018
597
Why is this thread still alive? Also:



Dude, these hypothetical situations you keep creating all reek of bad faith arguments. I'm socially awkward as fuck and have worked in a few female majority offices, and I've never had the issue you've described where a stray glance threatened to get me fired. You would have to demonstrate a pattern of staring at people like a weird ass in order for people to even start talking about it being a problem. And even if it is the case that you have a staring problem, then in the few female majority offices I worked at, I'm confident that the manager would first talk to you about not staring at people before they just threw you out on the streets.

This hypothetical office with a quick trigger finger for firing people that gave the wrong glance either doesn't exist, or is such an outlier that it's not worth arguing over.
Wait, so you're saying I've been in the wrong this entire time for staring at work females for several seconds, ocassionally minutes like the characters in my favorite 90's teen comedies? Geawrsh, well I guess that is a fair enough point I hadn't ever considered, I dunno, whatever.
 
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Llyranor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,587
That's weird. I've worked in a >90% female workplace for the past 10 yrs and never got written up by HR or fired.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,894
Nottingham, UK
Wait, so you're saying I've been in the wrong this entire time for staring at work females for several seconds, ocassionally minutes like the characters in my favorite 90's teen comedies? Geawrsh, well I guess that is a fair enough point I hadn't ever considered, I dunno, whatever.
What the fuck are you actually on about?

Is this an attempt at a sarcastic joke after having come in here talking bollocks, or are you being genuine and have trouble interpreting social cues?
 

Infinitebento

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,910
c h i » a k
I don’t understand why it is so insanely difficult for men to grasp sexual harassment.

the amount of people that come in here and try to bend the meaning of it is fucking tragic.
 

ItsBobbyDarin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,472
Egyptian residing in Denmark
Just don’t point and whisper at anybody. Not even male coworkers, it’s toxic as hell and creates a bad working environment.

And ofc you can approach women in the workplace and at a bar. You just do it differently. I don’t believe you can just shut love away just because it’s a coworker. It’s not a choice to become attracted to someone.
 

Raging Spaniard

Artist at EA Star Wars
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,778
As an aside, Im really not into ranking peoples looks. When I lived in NY dudes did that all the time (“I dont date 7s” type of shit) and it was pretty shitty.

When you add a detail like that to the story you are already reducing your coworker to a sex object in order to justify your behavior. Do better.
 

tangeu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
594
I don’t understand why it is so insanely difficult for men to grasp sexual harassment.

the amount of people that come in here and try to bend the meaning of it is fucking tragic.
The wild part to me, as a guy who does grasp it, is how instantly hostile other men get when I call them out. One guy who would have once called me a trusted friend flew off then handle in some crazed misogynistic tirade when I simply said "hey, have some respect, don't say shit like that"
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,894
Nottingham, UK
The wild part to me, as a guy who does grasp it, is how instantly hostile other men get when I call them out. One guy who would have once called me a trusted friend flew off then handle in some crazed misogynistic tirade when I simply said "hey, have some respect, don't say shit like that"
Yep same. It's the same story with racism, homophobia, and transphobia as well

Edit - also, and the following situations are obviously significantly less important than the above, when calling out terrible driving, littering, generally being an arsehole - it's maddening
 

est1992

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,394
For the past couple days I look back to see if this thread is dead, and it just keeps on kicking. Evil never dies
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,220
I think it's possible to have life experiences that make you more aware of what those behaviors are, but I think it can also be subjective and not always grounded in hard justice/truth every time, which makes it a tricky subject. It doesn't seem fair to me that someone should be fired for a job they are qualified to do simply for not having sharp emotional intelligence, or for appearing kinda creepy, or for having weird or quirky behavior that isn't even hateful and/or discriminatory. It's tricky because it can become a question of not just "should I be allowed to fire someone for subtle behavior that I feel is problematic" but "how can it be factually determined when subtly weird behavior in someone is or isn't indicative of bigotry vs stemming from something else?" It is challenging and I honestly don't know how it would be determined precisely on a consistent basis, and I'm usually skeptical of anyone who says they know how to
I now understand your point of view.

It’s self centered.

Your ONLY concern is the hypothetical of losing something due to being “misunderstood”.

You COULD try realizing that women have life experiences which allow them to distinguish leering from looking, and just trust the witness statement, but you won’t, because you identify too strongly with the hypothetical leerer.
 

iliketopaint_93

Use of alt account
Member
Sep 3, 2018
597
Why is this thread still alive? Also:



Dude, these hypothetical situations you keep creating all reek of bad faith arguments. I'm socially awkward as fuck and have worked in a few female majority offices, and I've never had the issue you've described where a stray glance threatened to get me fired. You would have to demonstrate a pattern of staring at people like a weird ass in order for people to even start talking about it being a problem. And even if it is the case that you have a staring problem, then in the few female majority offices I worked at, I'm confident that the manager would first talk to you about not staring at people before they just threw you out on the streets.

This hypothetical office with a quick trigger finger for firing people that gave the wrong glance either doesn't exist, or is such an outlier that it's not worth arguing over.
I now understand your point of view.

It’s self centered.

Your ONLY concern is the hypothetical of losing something due to being “misunderstood”.

You COULD try realizing that women have life experiences which allow them to distinguish leering from looking, and just trust the witness statement, but you won’t, because you identify too strongly with the hypothetical leerer.
Are...you guys looking at my account pic next to my posts and subconsciously making a connection that it must be how I look when women coworkers are nearby?
 
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samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,047
It's the way you talk, it's pretty obvious. You may not be aware of it because how you talk seems normal for you but from an outsiders perspective it definitely signals skeevy.
 

Zeyphersan

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
4,643
California
Just don’t point and whisper at anybody. Not even male coworkers, it’s toxic as hell and creates a bad working environment.

And ofc you can approach women in the workplace and at a bar. You just do it differently. I don’t believe you can just shut love away just because it’s a coworker. It’s not a choice to become attracted to someone.
No, but you control whether you act on that attraction or not. Not hitting on someone you’re attracted to isn’t going to kill you.
 

Stellar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
431
User banned (48 hours): Personal attacks against other members.
First off, I'm all for #metoo. And I don't condone sexual violence or unwanted advances regardless of race and sex.

What happened to my friend was simply bullshit.

We work in a small office. This new girl walks in to get Coffee at the cafeteria. She's a complete 10. He motions to me to look at her. She catches him doing it.
Seemed uncomfortable and went about her business to get the coffee.
My friend got embarrassed and I muttered to him "nice going dude, she saw you"

That's all it was. 2 days later He's called to the HR office. Nothing happened but everyone now knows because That's just the culture here.

So here's my friend who may lose his job or be forced to quit because he pointed out someone he found attractive.

I don't know what to say. I'm really angry right now because He's just a guy whose name is being thrown around like he raped her.
How old are you and your friend? Because It was honestly probably middle school or high school the last time that I did something like that or hung around people who would do shit like that.

There are literally millions of pretty women all over instagram/snapchat/etc. You guys must be some serious turbo incels to get all worked up about seeing a pretty woman in 2018.

It's insane that you actually came here and made this thread because you honestly thought your friend was the victim here lol.
 

Maurice Hamblin

User Requested Ban
Banned
Apr 6, 2018
667
How old are you and your friend? Because It was honestly probably middle school or high school the last time that I did something like that or hung around people who would do shit like that.

There are literally millions of pretty women all over instagram/snapchat/etc. You guys must be some serious turbo incels to get all worked up about seeing a pretty woman in 2018.

It's insane that you actually came here and made this thread because you honestly thought your friend was the victim here lol.
I can't believe you rolled into a 26 page thread and responded directly to the OP.
 

iliketopaint_93

Use of alt account
Member
Sep 3, 2018
597
It's the way you talk, it's pretty obvious. You may not be aware of it because how you talk seems normal for you but from an outsiders perspective it definitely signals skeevy.
Bob Ross doesn’t look creepy, but your words are at BEST ambiguous, and at worst bigoted.
Well geez, fair enough. I guess I'm learning a lot about myself today. Also I apologize for insinuating there is anything creepy about Bob Ross, completely off point on that one too.
 
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Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,547
USA
I'll respond to these and then I think I'll leave it at that because I'm not sure I know how to clarify my points ITT anymore right now.



Ooomph, ya got me.

I dunno, if you think I'm a bigot, maybe just prove it or try another approach in this discussion? Or I guess I should just get in line and always comply with any judgment about my character, receipts or not, from someone on a messageboard who doesn't know me irl who seems to wants to be in a position of lecturing me on ethics whether it's earned/deserved or not?




Again, when did I defend bigotry. And why do you think that poor social skills are always indicative of bigotry? I'm really fascinated by this. Do you think someone who's, say, noticeably autistic or has another form of mental illness and is bad at reading social cues and emotional intelligence is always a bigot?




I guess my perspective is more masculine than feminine since I haven't lived as a woman, even though I'm not a very masculine person. I'd like to think I'm a mix of both, though, and that it informs my perspective.



When did I defend his friend? My very first post ITT from second one was making fun of someone like that.



I think it's possible to have life experiences that make you more aware of what those behaviors are, but I think it can also be subjective and not always grounded in hard justice/truth every time, which makes it a tricky subject. It doesn't seem fair to me that someone should be fired for a job they are qualified to do simply for not having sharp emotional intelligence, or for appearing kinda creepy, or for having weird or quirky behavior that isn't even hateful and/or discriminatory. It's tricky because it can become a question of not just "should I be allowed to fire someone for subtle behavior that I feel is problematic" but "how can it be factually determined when subtly weird behavior in someone is or isn't indicative of bigotry vs stemming from something else?" It is challenging and I honestly don't know how it would be determined precisely on a consistent basis, and I'm usually skeptical of anyone who says they know how to.
You literally said "on one hand,".. Just stop. It's fucking harassment. You're going to bat for his friend by doing this. You're claiming there's wrong on both sides when there's clearly not.
 

pizoxuat

Member
Jan 12, 2018
356
Don't hit on women in a space where they are forced to interact with you. The workplace is one of those spaces.
 

Kaseoki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
585
But there is nothing wrong on hitting on someone. Hitting on someone is not harassment, the way you do it can be though. Complimenting a dress is flirting, but it ain’t harrasment.
Not at the office or at least not during work hours. Regardless of whether I like you or not, why am I being hit on during my hours when I am meant to be working to the best of my ability? Do that outside, or at least during the lunch break.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,258
Don't hit on women in a space where they are forced to interact with you. The workplace is one of those spaces.
Yeah, the phrasing I use comes from the McElroy Brothers, which is: Don't hit on someone if they can't literally run away from you.

If she's at work, she gets fired if she walks off. That means that, boss or not, you have power over her. OP's co-worker was forced to spend the day in close proximity to OP and his pervy friend. That's not okay.
 

RustyNails

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,015
Don't hit on women in a space where they are forced to interact with you. The workplace is one of those spaces.
The guy was not even hitting on her lol. It was like "bro check out dat asssss, lawdy" you know, stuff you do in middle school. Only this time he got caught. He's immature and does need to spend some time on those HR courses where they teach you how to behave like an adult.
 
Oct 28, 2017
7,267
It a new day and we all have to adjust to it. Health care is filled with hot women and my hospital no exception. I just look at the floor like when Homer took Bart at the strip club.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
It a new day and we all have to adjust to it. Health care is filled with hot women and my hospital no exception. I just look at the floor like when Homer took Bart at the strip club.
Edit: following was an error. Withdrawn with apologies.

Okay, so what was the point of the previous 26 pages if we're still getting posts like this?
 
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fanboi

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,159
Sweden
People need to learn social cues.

  1. If it is workplace, be professional towards everyone
  2. Don't hit, flirt or any other sexual adventures on a work place UNLESS you know that person well enough that she/he finds it nice, but even then...
  3. ... your employer might find it bad for work enviorment that you are doing these things.
So yeah, social cues, I mean, it is not hard, always assume that people are friendly towards you due to work and not that they are intrested in you.