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A guide to The Last Jedi, or why the movie is rich in storytelling and set-ups/payoffs of themes (Nerrel video) (open spoilers for everything)
- Thread starter ThisThingIsUseful
- Start date
Agreed with everything in the video, including that Canto Bight was pretty bad even if there was a message. They could still have made it a fun side mission without making a prequel style chase scene.
Compare the Black Panther scene in South Korea. It was a very similar setup, it even ends in a chase. But it's less overtly silly but also much more fun.
Compare the Black Panther scene in South Korea. It was a very similar setup, it even ends in a chase. But it's less overtly silly but also much more fun.
It doesn't matter either way. At worst the second act is a bit overlong but having seen the movie 3 times now it becomes less and less of an issue.
You can.
It's equally as silly as someone trying to have a conversation with you and explain to you how they see it and maybe try convince you to give it another chance as condescending and elitism or whatever other label you want to have for it to make it seem as if it's toxic to have a back and forth on a movie.
I have hardly talked about TLJ on this forum so I don't know anyone's stances on it and if they have something I think doesn't quite gel with it I like to have a discussion and most of those discussions turn out fine. As long as someone in the convo doesn't puff up and say I'm toxic and then just ends the convo.
No, see, the reason the Holdo Maneuver was never used before was because of the advanced deflector shield technology it had that made it possible!
you'd know this if you'd read the novelization!
A film can be good/decent but also be the wrong film in a series of films.
Johnson needed to be given his own series of films or a spin-off that he could've made his own, this whole "relay race" style of storytelling is what the problem is.
So while TLJ isn't a poorly made film per se, it's also not the right movie to be Episode VIII.
Johnson needed to be given his own series of films or a spin-off that he could've made his own, this whole "relay race" style of storytelling is what the problem is.
So while TLJ isn't a poorly made film per se, it's also not the right movie to be Episode VIII.
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It's kind of weird that this is a parody of what people think considering the video and those of us who agree with it are arguing how the novelizations and decades of Star Wars culture have set up expectations and ironically even constrictions for Star Wars films.
I mean you're right because mostly I love what they did to Snoke.
But I mean come on.
Sheev and Palpatine stuff are easily the best parts of the prequels.
Hey now, it worked because no one in the star wars universe had ever though to carry out a sneak attack.
The problem with this snark is that Palpatine was a perfectly simple to comprehend character based on context, while Snoak was just puzzling because we don't know where a second Emperor figure came from. However, this really goes back to one of the weirdest elements of TFA—that it doesn't give any real insight into its central conflict and leaves that stuff up to books to answer.
Excellent video and I couldn't agree more.
I also love The Force Awakens as well and think this ST has been an absolute blast thus far. Can't wait to see how things end.
I also love The Force Awakens as well and think this ST has been an absolute blast thus far. Can't wait to see how things end.
I mean what can I say? TLJ is the peak of cinema and anybody that doesn't also feel that way is frankly just not on the same intellectual level as people like me that "get it". It's clear as day, the action, story, romance, acting, it all comes together in such a blissful, and if I'm being honest, sensual experience. The sublimity of the artistry on display as Rian Johnson effortlessly thrusts us through this beautiful universe is just impeccable.
Before Rian came in to save the day the Star Wars universe was being wasted by the troglodytes that came before him, we never needed George Lucas. If George was absent from this series at the very beginning Star Wars as a brand would be waaay bigger, and regarded as much more than just another series for kids who drag their unhappy parents with them to the theaters.
I await Rian's trilogy with bated breath, I probably won't even watch JJ's failure of a film that will absolutely ruin every plot point and genius storytelling that Rian instilled into the series with TLJ. Don't worry fellow TLJ fans, soon enough we'll be back on track when Rian returns us to the greatness only he can conjure up ;)
Before Rian came in to save the day the Star Wars universe was being wasted by the troglodytes that came before him, we never needed George Lucas. If George was absent from this series at the very beginning Star Wars as a brand would be waaay bigger, and regarded as much more than just another series for kids who drag their unhappy parents with them to the theaters.
I await Rian's trilogy with bated breath, I probably won't even watch JJ's failure of a film that will absolutely ruin every plot point and genius storytelling that Rian instilled into the series with TLJ. Don't worry fellow TLJ fans, soon enough we'll be back on track when Rian returns us to the greatness only he can conjure up ;)
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I didn't need the backstory, and I do wish it could have been improved, but I'll be damned if McDiarmid isn't an exciting villain!
Are we really asking why good guys don't go on Kamikaze missions? I'm pretty sure Americans could have done that in WWII, but they didn't.
I still don't really understand how it's a complaint. What should happen when a ship goes into light speed and collides with other ships?
Well we did need it I think in the context of the prequels. Maybe not as much or done in a different way but he is central to Anakin turning.
He is fantastic tho. If anything episode 9 is going to be better for having him in it... because while I like JJ I don't think he could land the series without leaning on some nostalgia and Sheev is just great.
The loss of life in the OT would have been significantly smaller had they just done this trick once, not to mention the unbelievably of not having auto pilot do this OR having droids do it.
So I assume this is another sarcastic take? Because the movie explicitly sets out why it worked in that one situation.
See my above post making fun of this idea.
If the rebels had this tech and didn't use it to stop the empire/resistance then yeah, why not?
I think in time TLJ will be remembered fondly but having multiple directors is a recipe for these kind of tribalistic attacks. It introduces alternate timelines that'll make the Snyder cut pale in comparison.
How would that blow up something the size of a small moon?
ROTJ has a super star destroyer crashing into the Death Star and it largely does nothing. They only blow up the core to kill the thing.
EDIT: I haven't read much EU stuff in the explanation of what a deflector shield does and doesn't do. Most of the time I find it being technological jargon in the films and doesn't really ever mean anything.
Good video.
Does a great job at analyzing the themes of the movie and the arcs of the characters very well.
That said I'm still not a big fan of the movie overall. Most of the humor bombed for me and the pacing felt too slow. I know people hate when it's brought up, but the casino planet definitely went on for too long. Having time for a big dog/horse rescue scene and then having Finn and Phasma's reunion be so truncated was definitely not a choice I loved.
Has some great themes, characters, and visuals, it just felt weird as a middle trilogy movie and left me feeling a bit bored by the end both times I've watched it.
But I do totally agree with the video that a lot of the issues "fans" had with the movie that he breaks down in the video were pretty ridiculous and misguided when it came to expectations people had for specific characters or force powers or nitpicky plot hole stuff.
PS, everyone should go see Knives Out. That movie was fantastic, and I am excited to see more from Rian Johnson.
Does a great job at analyzing the themes of the movie and the arcs of the characters very well.
That said I'm still not a big fan of the movie overall. Most of the humor bombed for me and the pacing felt too slow. I know people hate when it's brought up, but the casino planet definitely went on for too long. Having time for a big dog/horse rescue scene and then having Finn and Phasma's reunion be so truncated was definitely not a choice I loved.
Has some great themes, characters, and visuals, it just felt weird as a middle trilogy movie and left me feeling a bit bored by the end both times I've watched it.
But I do totally agree with the video that a lot of the issues "fans" had with the movie that he breaks down in the video were pretty ridiculous and misguided when it came to expectations people had for specific characters or force powers or nitpicky plot hole stuff.
PS, everyone should go see Knives Out. That movie was fantastic, and I am excited to see more from Rian Johnson.
It is not good storytelling to delay a characters growth because you can't think of any other ideas for them though, right?
Who would have wanted to see a movie where Rey still wants to go back to Jakku? No one. She got to move on from her initial arc, but for me Finn's felt like a retread.
Yes. I know. The film is not subtle at all with its themes. That's why I said it could explore the same themes, while elevating him to a more important role.
Thanks for your response and not just telling me I am wrong :) And I am glad you liked it. I honestly wish I could enjoy the movie as much as some of you do.
Ive argued with virtually every explanation provided in plenty of threads. But go on and explain it to me what I missed.
Velocity impacts the crash. I also don't have any EU knowledge and would never use that stuff as a threshold to explain writing in the movies so no worries.
Ok so even if people can somehow justify why Holdo's kamikaze doesn't break the lore, can anyone tell me why she needed to be on the ship?
This isn't that trope though. This is a military commander giving up their life and expertise when they could've just used the ship ai or a drone.
This isn't that trope though. This is a military commander giving up their life and expertise when they could've just used the ship ai or a drone.
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If you go back the impact was rather small in size despite being able to take out multiple ships in its path. On the super star destroyer it only cuts a wing in half.
The Death Star is the size of a small moon so obviously a lot of nerdy math would need to be done to figure out how far into the death star it would ultimately go and whether or not it would go all the way thru.
Basically I don't think it would be as wide spread of a use in the universe simply because it means destroying something of yours in the process and if it was regularly used both sides would be decimated quickly. It's probably a rule of war to not just let it happen.
You could use the same logic as to why we don't just drop nukes on every country that is a threat.
EDIT: To pile on if the Rebels did that they wouldn't have people on their side for very long. Politics exist in this universe and a lot of people are happy with how the Empire run things.
If ISIS had nukes, they'd probably be using them. Also rules in war is just nonsense, especially when you're a resistance.
You certainly can have that view, but it's frankly rare that it's not the other way around, i.e., people seemingly not being able to understand what the movie is going for.
They are not talking about the resistance (who did do the move.) They are asking about the Rebels.
And are you saying the Rebels are the same as a terrorist organization who has no regards to human life and would rather just have a society destroyed (meaning everything in the empire should be destroyed?)
She was going to abandon too but DJ shared the resistance plans with the FO. The escape pods were being shot out of orbit.
Yup all of that was fantastic.
None of the apologists have accounted for why half of the movie is a disjointed and pointless side quest.
Would it end the war tho? Just launching your ships into one another?
Wars can be messy and I'm not saying that people wouldn't resort to that from time to time. Just I don't think it would be a widespread thing that is the answer to ending wars in the universe.
Certainly I see your point tho that it seems like an easier solution than getting into a drawn out battle when you can just aim a ship at another and send it into hyperspace destroying the other completely.
I just think that there's probably some logical understanding between the beings in this universe that doesn't make it as big of an issue.
Fantastic openning statement when you are making a claim that you aren't being condecending. BRAVO sir
You only replied to me with two sentences. Let's see what you were "explaining" to me, shall we?:
So there we have it. What you "explained" to me is that it's my fault that I didn't like how Snoke was handled in the movie, and nothing else. I'm the problem. You have no idea who I am, you have no idea what I wanted or expected (though you have come to your own conclusions in that respect regardless), but I'm the reason I think the movie is bad. And there are hundreds of thousands of me. Rian found the "best option". Thank you for "explaining". case closed
The sad thing is you're even almost understanding why we thought Snoke was lame in TLJ in the frist reply, but you still had to bury that snark in there
More condescension. I have a "massive misunderstanding of things in the film". No explanation. No quotes of what I misunderstood. I don't like you what you like, so I must be dumb
Snoke wasn't even a sith! (or so I'm told, not that I care, or that this is relevant. More that you are just highlighting how confusing and lame Snoke ended up). You are only reinforcing exactly why I wanted more from Snoke. I wanted a mission or goal, or more connection to the characters in some way (beyond a flimsy connection to Kylo). It would have made Kylo's betrayal more emotional (like the end of Jedi) and less of what seemed to be a play for shock (a technique TLJ repeats heavily)
And now falling back on the "It's all JJs fault" dance. You guys are extremely predictable.
Can I ask you this? Are you even a Star Wars fan? Why is it so important to keep TLJ elevated that you feel the need to tare down the other films to ensure it floats?
What Rian did with Snoke in TLJ is not JJ's fault. JJ wasn't involved. Rian could have done a million different things with Snoke. He could have redeemed Snoke and made him the new protagonist. How is this so hard for you guys?
I went over this in a post of mine you read and quoted even, but you ignored everything I said about this. So here it is again:
I agree that JJ's Snoke is lame. I call it lame all the time, and I still love and defend TFA... I think it's unfortunate Rain did not attempt to improve upon the lame Snoke, and instead abruptly pulled him out of the story. I did not have a specific head-cannon that I wanted for Snoke, I just wanted a reason to be happy the character was included in the series to begin with. I didn't get that
I completely agree that this is how TLJ handled Snoke. And here you are seeing exactly why I and so many others hate this direction. I'm not sure why you are so insistent that it's my fault I don't like what became of Snoke, when you agree this is how he was handled, but here we are...
Snoke is a Chekov's gun. He's established in TFA just enough for us to think he will be important later. Being the head of the FO, the force that turned Kylo, the antagonist that broke apart our OT trio, the muppet that brought down the republic, the shadowy mystery in a hologram, etc. paints him as such. "Get rid of him" and tell another story, as you clearly agree was done, is bound to be jarring for some people, as we are conditioned to expect more engrossing resolutions to such setups
Furthermore, as I've cited before, franchise writing is like improv, because you are jumping in continuing what someone else stared. The golden rule of improv is "Yes, and" not "No, but" and it's so easy to apply that to why TLJ turned so many people off.
"Lets get rid of him and tell the story of Ben" is about is as plain and clear of a "No, but" I can imagine (and strangly enough it's not the only massive and blatant "No, but" in the script...) Surely you can think of some other "No, buts" where characters are abruptly removed from a franchise with little ceremony that causes fans some angst. Is it weird that Snoke should be though of the same way?
There's a reason this golden rule has stuck around in storytelling, there's some truth to it. "Yes, and" builds on what the audience understands, rewards them for following along, satisfies their curiosity. "No, but" jerks them around. You are arguing with me that when the audience gets upset that they've been jerked around, it's their own fault (because they are dumb)
What are you even referring to hear!?!?! what sequence of events am I not understanding. Once again, the condescension is creepy as fuck
I don't like how TLJ handled Snoke, so I must be dumb. And because I am not actually dumb, but you know I must be because I don't share your opinion, you are now inventing reasons for me to be dumb so things can make sense for you. Now you are gaslighting myself and others reading the thread into thinking I'm dumb
Way to go
Way to continually reinforce my point
I don't disagree with this at all. The fact of the matter is, Rian was not writing a stand alone movie. He was writing a continuation in a long running franchise, a bridge at the center of trilogy, and a direct continuation of the movie that came before his. The expectations for writing such a piece are different than if Rian were starting from scratch, and that's not unfair to Rian. He knew this when he accepted the job.
I have no doubt Snoke wouldn't have existed if Rian had done TFA; he clearly understood what a lame idea Snoke was. In fact, I'm even willing to agree that what Rian would have come up with may have been better. But, the fact of the matter is, Rian was not starting this project, Snoke existed, and it fell on Rian to make him work. You can still blame JJ for the bad setup, but Rian fumbled the execution (apparently on purpose)
and the final condescension. Your goal was to lecture me until I could "think right". You wanted us to agree. And you assume I wanted the same thing. That I wanted to lecture you until you agreed Snoke was mishandled.
I did not want us to agree. As stated before
My purpose was to make it clear that I (and others) can dislike how Snoke was handled in TLJ without being incompetent, uncultured, myopic, entitled or close-minded. If you can agree with me on this, then you are correct, we can move on.
Otherwise I will continue to defend myself when I'm called an idiot for not revering a messy movie
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I mean, the rebels don't seem to have an issue with that when the kamikaze probably killed thousands.
How can the "apologists" account for your opinion?
The reason they don't feel what you feel has been explained ad nauseam.
You are just making up everything that I have said. At no point did I say you were anything except not understanding something like the sequence of events when it comes to Snoke.
You take what I said and then turn it into me calling you an idiot or dumb or whatever persecution you want to have in this scenario.
I think you have a vast mis understanding of how this talk is going and if you think that means your dumb that sounds like a personal problem to me.
i think it ultimately comes down to whether or not youre just ok with not questioning the larger implications of actions like this in the movie and not being ok with that. The fact we have to get into the specifics about why this is or isn't problematic is why its an issue for some people. Ultimately if it didn't bother you or effect your enjoyment, I totally get why. For myself and others that sort of thing bothers us. I feel like that can break down the majority of fighting about the movie right there.
I think its great to have talks like that. It's the best part of star wars lore when something like this comes along. Does it work? Does it not? How does it fit in the context of previous battles and stuff.
It just kind of has a built in history thing to it you know?
For Marvel movies it's how the bits and pieces all fit together and mostly everyone is in agreement (who are fans of course.) But in Star Wars the lore is fun to bicker about.
I never thought we would both reach the same conclusion on this matter just fun to go thru the logic of it all, instead of you know trying to figure out the logic of Trump's brain.
I think people go a bit too hard on the casino stuff, though I can sympathize with the idea that in the midst of a life or death space chase that the reckless decisions by the away team were a bad decision that were at odds with the larger plot (I would argue that's sort of the point of the sequence, and that's intentional dramatic irony like watching a character go into the dark hallway alone in a horror film but eh). What I can't agree with is the idea that Snoke is a more interesting or relatable villain than a lose confederacy of capitalists and weapons sellers who are the ones funding/empowering the Star Wars's equivalent of the Identity Evropa movement in order to retain their wealth and relative privilege, because that's how this shit works in real life
Totally, were in the same headspace. And honestly this has been one of the best conversations ive had with someone who i disagree with about the movie while remaining civil and i thank you for that. Its been great.
I did not make up anything you said, I quoted you specifically.
For the second time, then, where did I not understand the sequence of events when it comes to Snoke?
You also claimed I have a "massive misunderstanding of the film" (without citing examples) and insisted that my criticisms of the movie are because I did not get what I want (without bothering to know or understand what I wanted). To me, this is you calling me too dumb and entitled to form a valid opinion. I explained this above. I'd have no problem if you simply disagreed with me, but this more than disagreeing. This is toxic. And I don't even blame you. I see why your doing it. It's allover TLJ apologist content, you're simply reflecting what you're reading from everyone else who is doing the same
My entire point is that discussion of TLJ constantly reverts to apologists insisting that the people who don't like the movie "just don't understand", "don't remember things right", "didn't get it", "wanted something dumb", "wanted their head-cannon", etc. The video in the OP leans on this heavily. While you are not explicitly calling me or these people dumb, this is absolutely what you are insinuating. I called it out in the video, and I'm calling it out for you.
I explained why the Snoke swerve may have been unsatisfying to many people from a story telling perspective above. I think if this many people are hung up on it, it's more valuable to understand why than to pretend they just wanted things they didn't want. It can help us understand how to make better stories in the future
If you really want to have a reasoned and enlightened discussion about the topic, feel free to respond to the areas where I've tried, including the first post of mine you quoted
You got snark because that's what you gave. You replied to my reasonable explanation of what we wanted from Snoke, with the "you didn't get what you wanted, so you're mad" garbage one-liner that permeates these threads (and the video in the OP). It is indeed toxic. You can absolve any crticism with that deflection, because as long as criticism exists, something more was wanted. Isn't it more valuable to understand what we didn't like about the film, rather than demean us?
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"why didn't they just use lightspeed attacks before" is just such cinemasins tier nonsense
take two seconds to think about it and you can come up with any number of reasons why the situation in TLJ is different and why it wouldn't work all the time, but it doesn't actually matter
take two seconds to think about it and you can come up with any number of reasons why the situation in TLJ is different and why it wouldn't work all the time, but it doesn't actually matter
How is that the fault of TLJ? Blame Disney/JJ for tricking you.
Can you elaborate on how Snoke was not setup with any sort of mandate, crusade, or final goal?